Christmas’ missing icon: Mary breastfeeding Jesus

[Quinault]

I do breast feed in public. It is completely ridiculous to insist that women breast feed in the bathroom, or in the car. Breast feeding in the bathroom is just gross and unsanitary. In my case it would be impossible for me to breast feed in the car or bathroom. It would require either taking all of the kids into the bathroom with me, or taking all the kids in the car and strapping them in their seats. Getting 4 kids in car seats takes at least 15 minutes. Getting from the store, to the car is at least another 15. With a baby that nurses every 2 hours, well let's just say I would never get anything done. I have used cover-ups to nurse. After a certain point they just make everything more difficult. One would have to watch very closely (and by that I mean you would have to have your face within 1 foot of my body) to see anything when I latch a baby on/off.

[Quinault]

Has she tried to use a cover-up on a baby that keeps ripping it off?

You can't handle an infant?  You mean, like changing a diaper when the kid tries to get away?  Like I said, we have kids, my sister is a mother, I have tons of friends and co-workers who are mothers.  Your arguments simply fail.

How exactly do you think breast feeding works? Do you think a woman just hauls out a breast and the baby keeps the nipple in their mouth? Let me tell you; it isn't like that. I have to have one arm/hand to hold the baby, and another hand to keep my breast position correctly for feeding. That leaves me without any hands to keep a cover down. And don't say it is because I am incompetent. I have been doing this plenty long enough to know how to do it. I have had lactation consultants come to ME for advice on breast feeding issues.

Well, I am done here.  According to you, no one knows anything unless they have breasts.  

Not exactly. You can't say how "easy" it is to use a cover-up or pump milk if you have no experience with either. And this is coming from a woman that figured out a way to sleep and pump at the same time. I could lay just right and nap for 15 minutes while pumping. At the time I was nursing every 2 hours for a half hour, then an hour of pumping (plus another 15 minutes cleaning the pumping supplies). I didn't sleep more than 10 hours altogether for 5 days while my baby was in the NICU and I pumped.

[Michał Kalina]

The argument is, no one else wants to see your naked breasts, for a healthy amount of reasons.

You don't have to stare at breasfeeding women. You can just ignore them.

[Agabus]

The argument is, no one else wants to see your naked breasts, for a healthy amount of reasons.

I addressed this earlier in the thread.

Be a man, already.

As a father and a husband, I don't care if someone sees a half-second or minute of sideboob or even nipple in the context of breastfeeding. (God knows I have, and never felt weird about it.) Babies gotta eat. Covers are good for next to nothing and are more of a hindrance than anything else. Women shouldn't be banished from polite company because their babies have to eat. If it bugs you, you can be the one to GTFO. It's your hangup with the evolutionary and God-given purpose of the mammary.

Do you know why breastfeeding rates have plunged in this country? Because two generations of women haven't seen it done properly because breastfeeding mothers have been pushed to a back room or a "designated area" or --- God forbid -- the public toilet. Better than 10 lactation coaches is a woman who has been exposed to the day-to-day realities of breastfeeding from a young age. That means in public. That means in mixed company. Hell, that means in the parish hall during coffee hour.

[Quinault]

Thank you Agabus.

[LBK]

Be a man, already.

As a father and a husband, I don't care if someone sees a half-second or minute of sideboob or even nipple in the context of breastfeeding. (God knows I have, and never felt weird about it.) Babies gotta eat. Covers are good for next to nothing and are more of a hindrance than anything else. Women shouldn't be banished from polite company because their babies have to eat. If it bugs you, you can be the one to GTFO. It's your hangup with the evolutionary and God-given purpose of the mammary.

Do you know why breastfeeding rates have plunged in this country? Because two generations of women haven't seen it done properly because breastfeeding mothers have been pushed to a back room or a "designated area" or --- God forbid -- the public toilet. Better than 10 lactation coaches is a woman who has been exposed to the day-to-day realities of breastfeeding from a young age. That means in public. That means in mixed company. Hell, that means in the parish hall during coffee hour.

This.

There might be a sniff of a chance Kerdy might be convinced by a man has to say. He sure hasn't paid any mind to what the women have said so far.

[Kerdy]

The argument is, no one else wants to see your naked breasts, for a healthy amount of reasons.

I addressed this earlier in the thread.

Be a man, already.

As a father and a husband, I don't care if someone sees a half-second or minute of sideboob or even nipple in the context of breastfeeding. (God knows I have, and never felt weird about it.) Babies gotta eat. Covers are good for next to nothing and are more of a hindrance than anything else. Women shouldn't be banished from polite company because their babies have to eat. If it bugs you, you can be the one to GTFO. It's your hangup with the evolutionary and God-given purpose of the mammary.

Do you know why breastfeeding rates have plunged in this country? Because two generations of women haven't seen it done properly because breastfeeding mothers have been pushed to a back room or a "designated area" or --- God forbid -- the public toilet. Better than 10 lactation coaches is a woman who has been exposed to the day-to-day realities of breastfeeding from a young age. That means in public. That means in mixed company. Hell, that means in the parish hall during coffee hour.

That's you.  Not the rest of the world.

[Kerdy]

The argument is, no one else wants to see your naked breasts, for a healthy amount of reasons.

You don't have to stare at breasfeeding women. You can just ignore them.

And you can ignore everything on the planet you don't like as well.

[Kerdy]

Be a man, already.

As a father and a husband, I don't care if someone sees a half-second or minute of sideboob or even nipple in the context of breastfeeding. (God knows I have, and never felt weird about it.) Babies gotta eat. Covers are good for next to nothing and are more of a hindrance than anything else. Women shouldn't be banished from polite company because their babies have to eat. If it bugs you, you can be the one to GTFO. It's your hangup with the evolutionary and God-given purpose of the mammary.

Do you know why breastfeeding rates have plunged in this country? Because two generations of women haven't seen it done properly because breastfeeding mothers have been pushed to a back room or a "designated area" or --- God forbid -- the public toilet. Better than 10 lactation coaches is a woman who has been exposed to the day-to-day realities of breastfeeding from a young age. That means in public. That means in mixed company. Hell, that means in the parish hall during coffee hour.

This.

There might be a sniff of a chance Kerdy might be convinced by a man has to say. He sure hasn't paid any mind to what the women have said so far.

I pay attention to what a lot of women say and most of them think it prudent to cover themself in public.  I happen to agree with them.

[NicholasMyra]

I read throught it.  Your arguments failed to be applicable for today.  What SHOULD be and what actually IS, are not always the same.

You're right, Kerdy. Women even bring children to the mall these days. In our day and age, this will cause the pedophiles to sin in their hearts. Women should bring their children to private locations only, shrouding them from view during transport. A child should only be seen by their parents and physicians.

We aren't living in the 50's anymore when seeing children was not considered erogenous.

[Quinault]

The argument is, no one else wants to see your naked breasts, for a healthy amount of reasons.

I addressed this earlier in the thread.

Be a man, already.

As a father and a husband, I don't care if someone sees a half-second or minute of sideboob or even nipple in the context of breastfeeding. (God knows I have, and never felt weird about it.) Babies gotta eat. Covers are good for next to nothing and are more of a hindrance than anything else. Women shouldn't be banished from polite company because their babies have to eat. If it bugs you, you can be the one to GTFO. It's your hangup with the evolutionary and God-given purpose of the mammary.

Do you know why breastfeeding rates have plunged in this country? Because two generations of women haven't seen it done properly because breastfeeding mothers have been pushed to a back room or a "designated area" or --- God forbid -- the public toilet. Better than 10 lactation coaches is a woman who has been exposed to the day-to-day realities of breastfeeding from a young age. That means in public. That means in mixed company. Hell, that means in the parish hall during coffee hour.

That's you.  Not the rest of the world.

That's the thing; the literal rest of the world DOESN'T CARE about women openly breast-feeding. This is an issue almost exclusive to the US.

[ialmisry]

I read throught it.  Your arguments failed to be applicable for today.  What SHOULD be and what actually IS, are not always the same.

You're right, Kerdy. Women even bring children to the mall these days. In our day and age, this will cause the pedophiles to sin in their hearts. Women should bring their children to private locations only, shrouding them from view during transport. A child should only be seen by their parents and physicians.

We aren't living in the 50's anymore when seeing children was not considered erogenous.

Like this?

[Kerdy]

The argument is, no one else wants to see your naked breasts, for a healthy amount of reasons.

I addressed this earlier in the thread.

Be a man, already.

As a father and a husband, I don't care if someone sees a half-second or minute of sideboob or even nipple in the context of breastfeeding. (God knows I have, and never felt weird about it.) Babies gotta eat. Covers are good for next to nothing and are more of a hindrance than anything else. Women shouldn't be banished from polite company because their babies have to eat. If it bugs you, you can be the one to GTFO. It's your hangup with the evolutionary and God-given purpose of the mammary.

Do you know why breastfeeding rates have plunged in this country? Because two generations of women haven't seen it done properly because breastfeeding mothers have been pushed to a back room or a "designated area" or --- God forbid -- the public toilet. Better than 10 lactation coaches is a woman who has been exposed to the day-to-day realities of breastfeeding from a young age. That means in public. That means in mixed company. Hell, that means in the parish hall during coffee hour.

That's you.  Not the rest of the world.

That's the thing; the literal rest of the world DOESN'T CARE about women openly breast-feeding. This is an issue almost exclusive to the US.

Great!  When in the US...

BTW, I have travelled to many places all over the world and the only place I have seen this was in the US.

[Quinault]

No, you stated "That's you. Not the rest of the world."

Kerdy, I suspect you are just one of those guys that has a hyper-sexual reaction to breasts. In which case a Barbie is going to be an issue. Get over yourself. Breast-feeding isn't sexual, and a topless barbie isn't either

[Luckster]

I was 14 years old, working at McDonald's, when I saw my first woman breast-feeding in public. I walked past, confused at what I saw, came back 10 minutes later, and stared a bit longer. I returned again, another 10 minutes later - this time the woman caught me and she said, "First time you've seen this?" I slowly nodded and walked away.



This is all you see when you breast feed in public. Some women will whip the whole thing out, but most don't. Regardless, there are places where its appropriate and other places where it isn't. In church, or any formal gathering, and any heavily congested areas are, in my limited experience, unacceptable.

[Kerdy]

No, you stated "That's you. Not the rest of the world."

Kerdy, I suspect you are just one of those guys that has a hyper-sexual reaction to breasts. In which case a Barbie is going to be an issue. Get over yourself. Breast-feeding isn't sexual, and a topless barbie isn't either

The amount of incorrect statements you have provided in this thread is staggering, this post included.

"That is your opinion, which has the exact same valuable as mine in this forum; therefore, we are perpetually stalemated and this entire argument is an  exercise in futility."

[Asteriktos]

In my experience* there's very little that's sexual about the breasts of a new mother or a breast-feeding mother. YMMV.


*I saw 38D ones on a regular basis when I was married (through the process of having two babies)

[Quinault]

Here you go Kerdy, you can't get all hot and bothered over this one:



Did you know that men actually can breast-feed too?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation


In view of your statement that breast-feeding causes men to sin; I propose we make all men breast-feed! Thus there is no temptation whatsoever!

[Jetavan]

Here you go Kerdy, you can't get all hot and bothered over this one:



Did you know that men actually can breast-feed too?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation


In view of your statement that breast-feeding causes men to sin; I propose we make all men breast-feed! Thus there is no temptation whatsoever!

Those are called pappary glands.

[LBK]

Here you go Kerdy, you can't get all hot and bothered over this one:



Did you know that men actually can breast-feed too?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation


In view of your statement that breast-feeding causes men to sin; I propose we make all men breast-feed! Thus there is no temptation whatsoever!

FULL OF WIN!! 

[Quinault]

The scandal he isn't even trying to cover!


I can't seem to find the source article for the photo. It was in an article from 2002. But if you do a search for Sri Lanka and breastfeeding man, you will find blogs that copied the article.

[Jetavan]

The scandal he isn't even trying to cover!


I can't seem to find the source article for the photo. It was in an article from 2002. But if you do a search for Sri Lanka and breastfeeding man, you will find blogs that copied the article.

The original "Breast man".

[Eastern Mind]

Here you go Kerdy, you can't get all hot and bothered over this one:



Did you know that men actually can breast-feed too?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation


In view of your statement that breast-feeding causes men to sin; I propose we make all men breast-feed! Thus there is no temptation whatsoever!

 

[LizaSymonenko]

I encourage women to nurse their babies...it's the best "food" for them...and the best insurance for good health going forward.

However, there's a proper place and "manner" in which to do this.

Feeding your child mid-Liturgy, to me, is a bit much.  The mother doesn't have to be relegated to the bathroom, however, if she's not standing among strictly women, then she should walk to the back, go to the hall, sit in the narthex, etc.  I find it inappropriate and distracting.  We are taught to be as discreet and invisible in church, as possible, so as not to take people's minds off God and prayer.

Furthermore, sitting around a single table at a meeting, with mixed company, clergy, teens, unrelated men, etc. and whipping it out....I also find inappropriate...

The majority of mom's that I have encountered were discreet and gentle and sweet....and when you noticed them sitting off by themselves covered with a shawl....you knew what was happening....and moved on....or even were willing (as a woman) to sit and keep her company.

However, there was this one mom....who wished to parade it around....and would feed her child no matter where she was, who was around, etc.  It was almost like "I dare you to stop me..." kind of attitude....and she was not discreet....and would simply pop it out and not bother covering at all.   

With a boat load of teenage boys around, and girls hitting puberty....I found this to be inconsiderate of those around her.  Girls were self conscious and the boys were ogling. 

One has to take into consideration both sides.  Respect the mother and her need and wishes to nurse her child....however, keep in mind the reactions of those around.  Perhaps the mother of the teenage boy doesn't wish her son to be put in such a situation that he might find uncomfortable.

Plus, while I completely understand and value the symbolism in the OP icon, I find other icons of the Theotokos much more comforting and soothing. 

The first time I saw one like it was in Ukraine in a church....and I had to stop and do a double take.  This was years ago, and I was rather young...and almost felt offended on behalf of the Mother of God, that mankind should depict her in such a way.

Everyone knows she gave birth and fed the Christ child....however, she was always modest and covered up, and might be offended that her breast was showing (even if it is depicted as coming out of her shoulder instead of her chest - which makes it look even odder).

I have no issues with the icon and understand and appreciate the theology behind it, however, I would not hang one in my prayer corner.

[Kerdy]

I encourage women to nurse their babies...it's the best "food" for them...and the best insurance for good health going forward.

However, there's a proper place and "manner" in which to do this.

Feeding your child mid-Liturgy, to me, is a bit much.  The mother doesn't have to be relegated to the bathroom, however, if she's not standing among strictly women, then she should walk to the back, go to the hall, sit in the narthex, etc.  I find it inappropriate and distracting.  We are taught to be as discreet and invisible in church, as possible, so as not to take people's minds off God and prayer.

Furthermore, sitting around a single table at a meeting, with mixed company, clergy, teens, unrelated men, etc. and whipping it out....I also find inappropriate...

The majority of mom's that I have encountered were discreet and gentle and sweet....and when you noticed them sitting off by themselves covered with a shawl....you knew what was happening....and moved on....or even were willing (as a woman) to sit and keep her company.

However, there was this one mom....who wished to parade it around....and would feed her child no matter where she was, who was around, etc.  It was almost like "I dare you to stop me..." kind of attitude....and she was not discreet....and would simply pop it out and not bother covering at all.   

With a boat load of teenage boys around, and girls hitting puberty....I found this to be inconsiderate of those around her.  Girls were self conscious and the boys were ogling. 

One has to take into consideration both sides.  Respect the mother and her need and wishes to nurse her child....however, keep in mind the reactions of those around.  Perhaps the mother of the teenage boy doesn't wish her son to be put in such a situation that he might find uncomfortable.

Plus, while I completely understand and value the symbolism in the OP icon, I find other icons of the Theotokos much more comforting and soothing. 

The first time I saw one like it was in Ukraine in a church....and I had to stop and do a double take.  This was years ago, and I was rather young...and almost felt offended on behalf of the Mother of God, that mankind should depict her in such a way.

Everyone knows she gave birth and fed the Christ child....however, she was always modest and covered up, and might be offended that her breast was showing (even if it is depicted as coming out of her shoulder instead of her chest - which makes it look even odder).

I have no issues with the icon and understand and appreciate the theology behind it, however, I would not hang one in my prayer corner.

^ This

I actually went around and asked several people.  None of them felt it appropriate to openly feed in the manner presented on this thread and, without influence of my opinion, stated they either pumped and stored, went to an secluded area or used a blanket.  One even stated the idea a blanket over heats the child is ridiculous considering the "slings" we see people use to carry their kids around in these days almost completely closes the child off to outside air and ventilation, but no one complains about those.

Strange, how when discussing this with a variety of people, from various backgrounds, various cultures, various places, all promote discretion and lack of the lewd and offensive.  Very interesting.

[Quinault]

The day you start handing them out to all the women you see openly breastfeeding is the day you can say something about pumping instead of breastfeeding in public.

http://www.amazon.com/Medela-Pump-Style-Advanced-Breast/dp/B004HWXCJS/ref=pd_cp_ba_2

I would be happy to be the first recipient, although due to a variety of factors, this is the one I have to use:
http://www.amazon.com/Medela-0240108-Symphony-Breast-Pump/dp/B001JA85K2
Insurance only covers about 3 months of rental. So after that I am out of luck and pump-less.

There seems to be a problem with your comprehension here.

It is entirely possible to breastfeed in public without showing even a small amount of breast/skin. I know; I have been doing so for quite some time. Let's see; 3 years+18 months+3 years+2.5 years+10 months so far....I have been doing this for awhile. I don't use a cover, and I won't use a cover because I end up showing more skin trying to use a cover than I would when I don't use a cover. Try doing this; take off your shirt, put a large blanket across your chest, then have someone yank the blanket off to the sides, up and off, while they are doing this without using your hands you have to keep the blanket in place so no one can see any skin. Tell me how easy it is when you are done.

Next lift up your shirt and hold a toy babydoll to your nipple, then rearrange the rest of your shirt as well as the baby and your arms/hands so that there is no skin showing. Now, which method is easier for limiting the amount of skin showing?

And again, if you have such an issue with women openly breastfeeding, why don't you encourage men to do so?




There is a factor here that really needs to be considered; the mental and emotional health of the mother. Do you have any idea how much of an emotional rollercoaster it is to have a newborn? Do you have any idea how depressing it is to be isolated and ostracized every 2 hours for months on end? What do you think this would do to a woman that already has postpartum depression? Postpartum depression has always existed to some extent, but there is an increasing number of women that have it in today's culture compared to the past. One significant factor is the complete lack of support for a breastfeeding mother. Telling her that she is somehow offensive for feeding her baby is wrong. You treat the mother feeding her child with contempt, even making insulting comments. But you can pass by the wall sized photos of models in see thru lingerie at the mall and not say a word. Seriously? What is wrong with our culture that sexual images are ignored, and feeding a child is sexualized?

[Quinault]

My issue with this whole discussion is the insistence that women must use a cover, go to an isolated place, or pump and give bottles. Do I think it is appropriate to pull out your entire breast in public to breast-feed? No. It is unnecessary to do that when you can just wear appropriate clothing to breast-feed in. You make yourself look like an idiot when you do that. I do know 1-2 women that do that. Instead of chastising them, I make a point of breast-feeding in front of them in an appropriate manner so they can see how to do it. This method has actually worked quite well. They see how I can quickly and discreetly latch/unlatch without showing skin and I don't have to say a word. Many, many women don't know how to do it because they have never seen anyone do it.

There is a severe backlash against the negative treatment of breast-feeding women. This is causing the issue to be spearheaded by feminists that purposefully show as much skin as possible when they breast-feed. If instead of attempting to isolate, and embarrass breast-feeding women we actually showed them by example how to breast-feed in public appropriately we would not have idiotic things like "nurse ins." This attitude that women must cover, pump, or go into isolation to nurse, forces the women like myself that appropriately breast-feed into choosing a side. And if I have to choose a side, it will always be to encourage breast-feeding over isolating all mothers, encouraging pumping/bottles or forcing them to use ineffective covers.

[LizaSymonenko]

Quinault,

I hope I haven't offended you, or anyone else, as I am all for moms nursing their kids.  I have no issues with that.

However, when I'm sitting around a table at a meeting, with the priest sitting their, a bunch of kids, dads, etc....and this toddler wonders over to her mom and she picks her up and decides to pull up her T-shirt so the kid can latch on....is a bit much...don't you think?  

Everyone was uncomfortable.  The priest was turning red.  The kids were shuffling their feet...and everyone hurried up just to finish the meeting, instead of actually discussing what everyone had gathered to discuss.

I'm not saying she needed to go the bathroom, or put on a burka or something.....but, she could of at least covered herself, so her entire breast wasn't showing.  She put her comfort over everyone else's.  That's not right, either.

Both sides need to be taken in to consideration.  A bit of thoughtfulness goes a long way...on both sides.

[Gorazd]

Here in Europe, public breastfeeding is normal.

Anyway, Christ did not cause any (physical) pain to his mother. Even her miraculous pregnancy was painless, how could breatfeeding have been painful for her?

All this pain exists only because of the fallenness of mankind. But Christ is the New Adam.

[Michał Kalina]

However, when I'm sitting around a table at a meeting, with the priest sitting their, a bunch of kids, dads, etc....and this toddler wonders over to her mom and she picks her up and decides to pull up her T-shirt so the kid can latch on....is a bit much...don't you think?

I think it's not too much.

[Nephi]

This whole debate breaks down to culture, and seems to end up with each side asserting subjective cultural claims.

And to those that refuse to respect other cultural communities they may enter into - is it acceptible for a nudist to go nude into an Amish/Mennonite community?

[Quinault]

Liza, I suppose we just have entirely different parishes/communities. Our Khouria is a midwife, in fact she delivered our 4th child. Women regularly breast-feed openly at our parish. In fact, during a baptism our Khouria stopped and told our priest to let mom sit down and nurse baby so they would quit crying. This was at a point when the baby couldn't leave, but they couldn't proceed with the baby screaming either. Having the baby breast-fed in the Nave was the only real option. As he was the only one being baptized that day, it isn't like they could stop everything and wait until mom/baby came back. I have sat down next to his three daughters and breast-fed before. So no, a woman nursing a toddler in front of our priest wouldn't cause him to so much as blink.

[SolEX01]

Liza, I suppose we just have entirely different parishes/communities. Our Khouria is a midwife, in fact she delivered our 4th child. Women regularly breast-feed openly at our parish. In fact, during a baptism our Khouria stopped and told our priest to let mom sit down and nurse baby so they would quit crying. This was at a point when the baby couldn't leave, but they couldn't proceed with the baby screaming either. Having the baby breast-fed in the Nave was the only real option. As he was the only one being baptized that day, it isn't like they could stop everything and wait until mom/baby came back. I have sat down next to his three daughters and breast-fed before. So no, a woman nursing a toddler in front of our priest wouldn't cause him to so much as blink.

I know you want to have as many children as you can; don't you get tired of breastfeeding for 10+ years straight?  Are you concerned that your other children aren't getting the attention they deserve if you spend every 2 hours breastfeeding the youngest children for 30 minutes at a time?  

[LizaSymonenko]

Liza, I suppose we just have entirely different parishes/communities. Our Khouria is a midwife, in fact she delivered our 4th child. Women regularly breast-feed openly at our parish. In fact, during a baptism our Khouria stopped and told our priest to let mom sit down and nurse baby so they would quit crying. This was at a point when the baby couldn't leave, but they couldn't proceed with the baby screaming either. Having the baby breast-fed in the Nave was the only real option. As he was the only one being baptized that day, it isn't like they could stop everything and wait until mom/baby came back. I have sat down next to his three daughters and breast-fed before. So no, a woman nursing a toddler in front of our priest wouldn't cause him to so much as blink.

So, that's your parish and the situation in which you are lucky enough to find yourself.

However, what of my story?  The mom feeding her child in a group of uncomfortable teens and preteens?  

Let me tell you what happened afterwards....the boys were teasing all the young girls that their boobs weren't big enough, that their babies will starve one day, etc.  The girls were all self conscious and all of a sudden trying to jot their chests out more.  The whole teenage angst/body image, teasing would never have occurred had this one mom taken in to account that she is not sitting with friends, or with other adults....but with preteens/teens who really shouldn't have been subject to her two year old latching on and making loud sucking noises over the discussion that was trying to take place.

If this were all adults....go for it.  Adult men and women wouldn't blink twice....but, these were still kids.

I'm sorry....but, I don't think it's appropriate.  Yes, it's natural, yes, it's healthy and good....but, there's a time and a place for everything.  All sides must be considered.

...and as their teacher, I had to deal with the parents who called me and wanted to know what had happened that day because of the things there kids were saying at home.

[LBK]

is it acceptible for a nudist to go nude into an Amish/Mennonite community?

Nephi, nudism is not a biological necessity. Breastfeeding is. Apples and oranges. 

[ialmisry]

Liza, I suppose we just have entirely different parishes/communities. Our Khouria is a midwife, in fact she delivered our 4th child. Women regularly breast-feed openly at our parish. In fact, during a baptism our Khouria stopped and told our priest to let mom sit down and nurse baby so they would quit crying. This was at a point when the baby couldn't leave, but they couldn't proceed with the baby screaming either. Having the baby breast-fed in the Nave was the only real option. As he was the only one being baptized that day, it isn't like they could stop everything and wait until mom/baby came back. I have sat down next to his three daughters and breast-fed before. So no, a woman nursing a toddler in front of our priest wouldn't cause him to so much as blink.

I know you want to have as many children as you can; don't you get tired of breastfeeding for 10+ years straight?  Are you concerned that your other children aren't getting the attention they deserve if you spend every 2 hours breastfeeding the youngest children for 30 minutes at a time?  

Maybe they are learning to think of others and their needs ahead of themselves and their own desires.

Btw, I was watching "The Nun's Story" and it has a lot of women shown nursing in the Congo. But they were the black natives.  It didn't seem like they were seen as "indecent" even in the 50's America.  Not sure if that was for the right reasons.

[Quinault]

Liza, I suppose we just have entirely different parishes/communities. Our Khouria is a midwife, in fact she delivered our 4th child. Women regularly breast-feed openly at our parish. In fact, during a baptism our Khouria stopped and told our priest to let mom sit down and nurse baby so they would quit crying. This was at a point when the baby couldn't leave, but they couldn't proceed with the baby screaming either. Having the baby breast-fed in the Nave was the only real option. As he was the only one being baptized that day, it isn't like they could stop everything and wait until mom/baby came back. I have sat down next to his three daughters and breast-fed before. So no, a woman nursing a toddler in front of our priest wouldn't cause him to so much as blink.

I know you want to have as many children as you can; don't you get tired of breastfeeding for 10+ years straight?  Are you concerned that your other children aren't getting the attention they deserve if you spend every 2 hours breastfeeding the youngest children for 30 minutes at a time?   

I don't want to have as many children as I can. And I don't want to breast-feed in isolation precisely because I have other children. If I had to nurse in private, quiet, place my older kids would never be able to leave the house since I would never be able to leave the house.

[Quinault]

Liza, I suppose we just have entirely different parishes/communities. Our Khouria is a midwife, in fact she delivered our 4th child. Women regularly breast-feed openly at our parish. In fact, during a baptism our Khouria stopped and told our priest to let mom sit down and nurse baby so they would quit crying. This was at a point when the baby couldn't leave, but they couldn't proceed with the baby screaming either. Having the baby breast-fed in the Nave was the only real option. As he was the only one being baptized that day, it isn't like they could stop everything and wait until mom/baby came back. I have sat down next to his three daughters and breast-fed before. So no, a woman nursing a toddler in front of our priest wouldn't cause him to so much as blink.

So, that's your parish and the situation in which you are lucky enough to find yourself.

However, what of my story?  The mom feeding her child in a group of uncomfortable teens and preteens? 

Let me tell you what happened afterwards....the boys were teasing all the young girls that their boobs weren't big enough, that their babies will starve one day, etc.  The girls were all self conscious and all of a sudden trying to jot their chests out more.  The whole teenage angst/body image, teasing would never have occurred had this one mom taken in to account that she is not sitting with friends, or with other adults....but with preteens/teens who really shouldn't have been subject to her two year old latching on and making loud sucking noises over the discussion that was trying to take place.

If this were all adults....go for it.  Adult men and women wouldn't blink twice....but, these were still kids.

I'm sorry....but, I don't think it's appropriate.  Yes, it's natural, yes, it's healthy and good....but, there's a time and a place for everything.  All sides must be considered.

...and as their teacher, I had to deal with the parents who called me and wanted to know what had happened that day because of the things there kids were saying at home.

The teens in your story obviously have never been around breast-feeding. Obviously in your parish it is abnormal. The teens in our parish don't care about breast-feeding. Your community obviously is still very anti public breast-feeding. But that doesn't mean that every community is anti breast-feeding. From my position, our community attitude toward public breast-feeding is healthier. It is completely normal/natural. And if teen boys decide to use it as a source of ridicule, they obviously haven't been taught either about proper behavior or how breast-feeding works.

[Kerdy]

I liked it better when this thread was locked.

[SolEX01]

Liza, I suppose we just have entirely different parishes/communities. Our Khouria is a midwife, in fact she delivered our 4th child. Women regularly breast-feed openly at our parish. In fact, during a baptism our Khouria stopped and told our priest to let mom sit down and nurse baby so they would quit crying. This was at a point when the baby couldn't leave, but they couldn't proceed with the baby screaming either. Having the baby breast-fed in the Nave was the only real option. As he was the only one being baptized that day, it isn't like they could stop everything and wait until mom/baby came back. I have sat down next to his three daughters and breast-fed before. So no, a woman nursing a toddler in front of our priest wouldn't cause him to so much as blink.

I know you want to have as many children as you can; don't you get tired of breastfeeding for 10+ years straight?  Are you concerned that your other children aren't getting the attention they deserve if you spend every 2 hours breastfeeding the youngest children for 30 minutes at a time?   

I don't want to have as many children as I can. And I don't want to breast-feed in isolation precisely because I have other children. If I had to nurse in private, quiet, place my older kids would never be able to leave the house since I would never be able to leave the house.

I was accusing you of extreme breastfeeding in that you were substituting breastfeeding for the lack of affection you had as a child; I apologize.     Isa's point made sense in that children aren't being taught to put their own self-interests aside for the interests of others even if that means waiting for mom to finish breastfeeding.

[Nephi]

is it acceptible for a nudist to go nude into an Amish/Mennonite community?

Nephi, nudism is not a biological necessity. Breastfeeding is. Apples and oranges. 

Human breastfeeding is not a biological necessity. Healthier it may be, but babies raised without being breastfed show that it is not a necessity, otherwise they wouldn't be with us. And while benefit is debateable, nudism is undeniably a natural (and pre-cultural) behavior, just like breastfeeding. In other words, apples and apples.

[Quinault]

Interesting blog post about breastfeeding uncovered. The article postulates that as breast feeding is a right brain activity, women need to see it done more in order to know how to do it. There is a great story about a gorilla in it too.

http://thebabeandbreast.blogspot.com/2011/07/real-reason-not-to-cover-up-nursing.html?m=1

And yes, breastfeeding is a biological necessity. Formula was only created very recently. Before that many a baby would die if they did not receive breast milk from some source. My son is an excellent example of a baby that would die if all he had available was commercial formulas, or animal milk. The only formula he can drink is about $5 a bottle, and is created from amino acids rather than soy/dairy bases. Take that $5 a bottle and multiply it by 8-10 bottles per day, then multiply that by 30 in a month. If I didn't breast feed, my only option is a formula that costs between $1800-3000 a month for a newborn. By 1 year of age that is still about 1k a month.

[biro]

Money, whatever else it is, isn't a matter of biology.

I wasn't breast-fed. I turned out fine.

[Quinault]

Before the advent of formula it was and is. In countries without formula (and there are a good number of them) a baby will die without breast milk. Not every person in the world has access to formula. So you are incorrect, it is a biological necessity. If formula ceased to be produced tomorrow, many a baby would starve to death if they did not have breast milk thru some means.

This isn't about breast is best. Turning out "fine" because you had access to formula has no bearing in the argument. 100 years ago if you hadn't had access to breast milk you would not have been fine. All mammals lactate out of biological necessity. Hence why the first gorilla the mother gave birth to died; mom couldn't breast feed. The mother gorilla couldn't go buy formula, now could she?

[biro]

Yeah, but this isn't 100 years ago, and you did comment about what happens to people who took formula.

If you don't want to use formula, that's your business. If others don't, what is that to you?

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