Author Topic: Does anyone know why?  (Read 1957 times)

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Offline cossack 316

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Does anyone know why?
« on: December 11, 2012, 02:51:00 PM »
Does anyone know why maybe 1/3 of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in the US celebrate Christmas according to the Gregorian Calendar Dec 25th but the other 2/3 are faithful to the Julian Jan 7 calendar? I have noticed that all the newer mission churches like in MD, NM, and VA are all new calendar. Is the EP telling the UOCUSA to eventually phase out the Julian calendar? Or is this done to try and gain American converts to make the transition easier?

Offline mike

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2012, 02:55:09 PM »
IMO it's Jewish-Freemason conspiracy.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 02:56:17 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2012, 02:57:10 PM »

LOL!  Anything to rock that boat, huh?

I wouldn't know...as my church adheres to the January 7th date.

Why don't you find someone from one of those parishes, and ask them?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2012, 02:59:37 PM »
Does anyone know why maybe 1/3 of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in the US celebrate Christmas according to the Gregorian Calendar Dec 25th but the other 2/3 are faithful to the Julian Jan 7 calendar? I have noticed that all the newer mission churches like in MD, NM, and VA are all new calendar. Is the EP telling the UOCUSA to eventually phase out the Julian calendar? Or is this done to try and gain American converts to make the transition easier?
Maybe they looked at the calendar and saw it was January 7, and not December 25?
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Offline cossack 316

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2012, 03:01:36 PM »
I'm not rocking the boat Liza, Im just trying to understand why? Don't take it so personal.

Offline mike

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2012, 03:04:32 PM »
I'm not rocking the boat Liza, Im just trying to understand why? Don't take it so personal.

Why do you care?
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2012, 03:05:24 PM »

When you pick on my Church, I tend to take it personally.
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Offline cossack 316

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2012, 03:05:51 PM »
Because I've never heard of one jurisdiction that uses both calendars. Do any other Orthodox jurisdictions "swing both ways"?

Offline cossack 316

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2012, 03:06:24 PM »

When you pick on my Church, I tend to take it personally.


How am I "picking?"

Offline mike

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2012, 03:07:57 PM »
Because I've never heard of one jurisdiction that uses both calendars. Do any other Orthodox jurisdictions "swing both ways"?

Mine does. OCA does. Bulgarians, Romanians, EP, and Czech-Slovakians do too. Not sure but I think MP does it too.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 03:08:31 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2012, 03:08:38 PM »
Does anyone know why maybe 1/3 of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in the US celebrate Christmas according to the Gregorian Calendar Dec 25th but the other 2/3 are faithful to the Julian Jan 7 calendar? I have noticed that all the newer mission churches like in MD, NM, and VA are all new calendar. Is the EP telling the UOCUSA to eventually phase out the Julian calendar? Or is this done to try and gain American converts to make the transition easier?

That's a good question really. I know that ACROD's new parishes and missions are RJC while the rest of the diocese is 50/50 new/old and often wondered if this policy was EP inspired.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2012, 03:09:09 PM »
I'm not rocking the boat Liza, Im just trying to understand why? Don't take it so personal.
LOL.  Besides stating that she personally observes the Old Calendar date, and suggesting that you personally ask those whom you personally alleged have changed their celebration date to state why they have, Liza didn't take anything personal.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2012, 03:09:09 PM »
Because I've never heard of one jurisdiction that uses both calendars. Do any other Orthodox jurisdictions "swing both ways"?
The OCA.  The GOA. Even ROCOR at one point (I don't know if they still do since the Bulgarians left).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline cossack 316

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2012, 03:12:13 PM »
I did not realize that many orthodox jurisdictions use both calendars. Interesting

Offline choy

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2012, 03:36:52 PM »
Does anyone know why maybe 1/3 of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in the US celebrate Christmas according to the Gregorian Calendar Dec 25th but the other 2/3 are faithful to the Julian Jan 7 calendar? I have noticed that all the newer mission churches like in MD, NM, and VA are all new calendar. Is the EP telling the UOCUSA to eventually phase out the Julian calendar? Or is this done to try and gain American converts to make the transition easier?

It is the same thing with the Ukrainian Catholic Church.  Parishes with a bigger immigrant population will tend to use the Julian as it is the Liturgical Calendar in Ukraine for all Churches (Catholic or Orthodox, both canonical and not).  The big issue is the framented Church in Ukraine and the first one to make a big change, the other Churches will make a big deal about it, so no one is budging with the Julian in Ukraine.  But in the diaspora, its sort of a free for all.  Our UGCC Eparchy is pretty much Gregorian through and through, yet you have places like the Toronto Eparchy where some parishes are Julian, others are Gregorian (including Easter).  I would suspect this kind of approach is shared with the Ukrainian Orthodox, with the exception of Easter of course which is uniform throughout Orthodoxy.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2012, 08:08:16 PM »
Because I've never heard of one jurisdiction that uses both calendars. Do any other Orthodox jurisdictions "swing both ways"?
The OCA.  The GOA. Even ROCOR at one point (I don't know if they still do since the Bulgarians left).

ACROD is still 50/50.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2012, 08:14:36 PM »
Because I've never heard of one jurisdiction that uses both calendars. Do any other Orthodox jurisdictions "swing both ways"?
The OCA.  The GOA. Even ROCOR at one point (I don't know if they still do since the Bulgarians left).

ACROD is still 50/50.
I thought so, but couldn't swear to it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2012, 08:18:59 PM »
Does anyone know why maybe 1/3 of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in the US celebrate Christmas according to the Gregorian Calendar Dec 25th but the other 2/3 are faithful to the Julian Jan 7 calendar? I have noticed that all the newer mission churches like in MD, NM, and VA are all new calendar. Is the EP telling the UOCUSA to eventually phase out the Julian calendar? Or is this done to try and gain American converts to make the transition easier?

It is the same thing with the Ukrainian Catholic Church.  Parishes with a bigger immigrant population will tend to use the Julian as it is the Liturgical Calendar in Ukraine for all Churches (Catholic or Orthodox, both canonical and not).  The big issue is the framented Church in Ukraine and the first one to make a big change, the other Churches will make a big deal about it, so no one is budging with the Julian in Ukraine.  But in the diaspora, its sort of a free for all.  Our UGCC Eparchy is pretty much Gregorian through and through, yet you have places like the Toronto Eparchy where some parishes are Julian, others are Gregorian (including Easter).  I would suspect this kind of approach is shared with the Ukrainian Orthodox, with the exception of Easter of course which is uniform throughout Orthodoxy.
LOL.  Here in Chicago, I am told, we had riots (literally) between the parishioners of St. Nicholas cathedral coming back with their blessed water of Theophany bumping into the parishioners of the break away church (over the calendar) of SS. Volodymyr and Olha, a few blocks away, on their way to Christmas vigil.

My first love was in the UGCC: she told me about "Ukrainian New Year." I didn't quite get it at the time.  I mean, doesn't the Ukraine go around the sun at the same rate as the rest of the planet?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2012, 12:32:26 AM »

...it's not "the" Ukraine.  :angel:

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2012, 12:37:00 AM »
Does anyone know why maybe 1/3 of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in the US celebrate Christmas according to the Gregorian Calendar Dec 25th but the other 2/3 are faithful to the Julian Jan 7 calendar? I have noticed that all the newer mission churches like in MD, NM, and VA are all new calendar. Is the EP telling the UOCUSA to eventually phase out the Julian calendar? Or is this done to try and gain American converts to make the transition easier?

It is the same thing with the Ukrainian Catholic Church.  Parishes with a bigger immigrant population will tend to use the Julian as it is the Liturgical Calendar in Ukraine for all Churches (Catholic or Orthodox, both canonical and not).  The big issue is the framented Church in Ukraine and the first one to make a big change, the other Churches will make a big deal about it, so no one is budging with the Julian in Ukraine.  But in the diaspora, its sort of a free for all.  Our UGCC Eparchy is pretty much Gregorian through and through, yet you have places like the Toronto Eparchy where some parishes are Julian, others are Gregorian (including Easter).  I would suspect this kind of approach is shared with the Ukrainian Orthodox, with the exception of Easter of course which is uniform throughout Orthodoxy.
LOL.  Here in Chicago, I am told, we had riots (literally) between the parishioners of St. Nicholas cathedral coming back with their blessed water of Theophany bumping into the parishioners of the break away church (over the calendar) of SS. Volodymyr and Olha, a few blocks away, on their way to Christmas vigil.

My first love was in the UGCC: she told me about "Ukrainian New Year." I didn't quite get it at the time.  I mean, doesn't the Ukraine go around the sun at the same rate as the rest of the planet?

It's sad to see people do stuff like that over churchy issues.  They treat their own brothers and sisters worse than pagans.

The calendar issue goes way way back....
It's an old fight from those who lived long before us.

Funny how the international date line or time zones never entered the argument.   :angel:
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2012, 01:20:22 AM »

...it's not "the" Ukraine.  :angel:


Sorry for the slip.  I was recollecting what I said at the time (it was back in the day when "the Ukraine" was standard.  She introduced me to the difference between Russia and Ukraine).
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2012, 05:14:20 AM »
Because I've never heard of one jurisdiction that uses both calendars. Do any other Orthodox jurisdictions "swing both ways"?

Mine does. OCA does. Bulgarians, Romanians, EP, and Czech-Slovakians do too. Not sure but I think MP does it too.

Really? Where have you seen Romanians using the Old Calendar? I've never come across it. Unless, of course, you're talking about the 'True' Orthodox but then they're really not the same jurisdiction nor, indeed, even in communion with us.

I actually wish we did use the Old Calendar rather than the New, but to the best of my knowledge none of us do.

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Offline mike

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2012, 05:17:44 AM »
Really? Where have you seen Romanians using the Old Calendar? I've never come across it.

Ukrainian parishes?
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2012, 05:26:44 AM »
Despite some perceptions otherwise, the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not concern itself with transitioning its eparchies to the Reformed Julian Calendar.  In fact, having eparchies under it which use the Old Calendar demonstrates that the Calendar in itself does not need to be divisive among Orthodox Christians.  I've been told by an official of the Church of Constantinople, as to the Calendar, "It's not an issue."
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Offline Ansgar

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2012, 05:46:01 AM »
I think a majority of our parishes are on the old calendar.
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2012, 06:30:10 AM »
Really? Where have you seen Romanians using the Old Calendar? I've never come across it.

Ukrainian parishes?

Do you mean ethnic Ukrainian parishes within the Romanian church? If so I've never come across one and my wife's from the region where you'd expect them to exist. The churches described as Ukrainian are invariably Greek Catholic. There is a church described as Russian by the locals in Suceava where the Liturgy is in Slavonic, but I don't know what jurisdiction it's under and it may even be Old Believer.

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Offline mike

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2012, 07:09:14 AM »
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2012, 07:49:34 AM »
WHat about that:

http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicariatul_Ortodox_Ucrainean_din_Rom%C3%A2nia

?

It appears that you are correct, though I'd never heard of it before. It seems they're over on the Transylvanian side of the Carpathians, though, which would explain why I've never come across one. The Ukrainians (and my wife's of Ukrainian extraction) in Bucovina seem to all go to normal Romanian Orthodox churches or to Greek Catholic ones.

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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2012, 10:19:09 AM »
Parishes with a bigger immigrant population will tend to use the Julian as it is the Liturgical Calendar in Ukraine for all Churches (Catholic or Orthodox, both canonical and not).

I do not wish to raise this old controversy again. I am interjecting only to correct one thing: in the Orthodox liturgical calendar, the date for all the fixed feast days are the same, to include Nativity. Thus, Nativity is on December 25th. However, most of the Orthodox have continued to use the old secular calendar (the Julian) and thus they end up celebrating Nativity days later. In effect, they observe the Gregorian calendar day in and day out for all purposes but religious ones. When it comes to religious observances, they conflate the religious calendar (whic is universally observed) with the secular calendar that was used when the religious feast calendar was formed.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2012, 10:20:44 AM »
Does anyone know why maybe 1/3 of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in the US celebrate Christmas according to the Gregorian Calendar Dec 25th but the other 2/3 are faithful to the Julian Jan 7 calendar? I have noticed that all the newer mission churches like in MD, NM, and VA are all new calendar. Is the EP telling the UOCUSA to eventually phase out the Julian calendar? Or is this done to try and gain American converts to make the transition easier?
Maybe they looked at the calendar and saw it was January 7, and not December 25?

lol

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2012, 10:24:49 AM »
Because I've never heard of one jurisdiction that uses both calendars. Do any other Orthodox jurisdictions "swing both ways"?
The OCA.  The GOA. Even ROCOR at one point (I don't know if they still do since the Bulgarians left).

ACROD is still 50/50.
I thought so, but couldn't swear to it.

And this is to say the least, rather confusing.

Over the weekend I asked the Byzantine Catholic priest who is an immigrant from Slovakia what the practice was in Europe among the Rusyn Greek Catholics. In Slovakia some are on the Julian, others on the secular calendar. In Transcarpathian Ukraine all are on the Julian. As for the Paschalion, in Ukraine all are on the Orthodox computation and in Slovakia some are, some are not - so the confusion is not limited to the us Orthodox!

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2012, 02:22:08 PM »
Because I've never heard of one jurisdiction that uses both calendars. Do any other Orthodox jurisdictions "swing both ways"?
The OCA.  The GOA. Even ROCOR at one point (I don't know if they still do since the Bulgarians left).

ACROD is still 50/50.
I thought so, but couldn't swear to it.

And this is to say the least, rather confusing.

Over the weekend I asked the Byzantine Catholic priest who is an immigrant from Slovakia what the practice was in Europe among the Rusyn Greek Catholics. In Slovakia some are on the Julian, others on the secular calendar. In Transcarpathian Ukraine all are on the Julian. As for the Paschalion, in Ukraine all are on the Orthodox computation and in Slovakia some are, some are not - so the confusion is not limited to the us Orthodox!

The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church I attended a few times would just sing the epistle and gospel (and I think some of the hymns) for both days when the old priest who was on the old calendar was there. Problem solved!  ;)
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Offline mike

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Re: Does anyone know why?
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2012, 03:44:24 PM »
The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church I attended a few times would just sing the epistle and gospel (and I think some of the hymns) for both days when the old priest who was on the old calendar was there.

LOL. What about troparia, dismissal?
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