Author Topic: Is Purgatory for believers or unbelievers to repent and be saved on Judgment Day  (Read 1362 times)

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Offline Alfred Persson

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The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory
Given at the Pseudo-Synod of Ferrara-Florence
The Greeks demanded a written exposition of this doctrine. When they received it, Mark of Ephesus and Bessarion of Nice each wrote their remarks on it, which afterwards served as a general answer to the doctrine of the Latins.
When giving in this answer (June 14th), Bessarion explained the difference of the Greek and Latin doctrine on this subject. The Latins, he said, allow that now, and until the day of the last judgment, departed souls are purified by fire, and are thus liberated from their sins; so that, he who has sinned the most will be a longer time undergoing purification, whereas he whose sins are less will be absolved the sooner, with the aid of the Church; but in the future life they allow the eternal, and not the purgatorial fire. Thus the Latins receive both the temporal and the eternal fire, and call the first the purgatorial fire. On the other hand, the Greeks teach of one eternal fire alone, understanding that the temporal punishment of sinful souls consists in that they for a time depart into a place of darkness and sorrow, are punished by being deprived of the Divine light, and are purified—that is, liberated from this place of darkness and woe—by means of prayers, the Holy Eucharist, and deeds of charity, and not by fire. The Greeks also believe, that until the union of the souls to the bodies, as the souls of sinners do not suffer full punishment, so also those of the saints do not enjoy entire bliss. But the Latins, agreeing with the Greeks in the first point, do not allow the last one, affirming that the souls of saints have already received their full heavenly reward.

As for Protestants, they deny the belief altogether:

The doctrine of purgatory fails the biblical test both in terms of direct interpretation of the specifically cited texts and in terms of the overall teaching of Scripture. Neither of the classically cited passages mentions purgatory by name or by concept. Even more, this doctrine denies one of the fundamental teachings of the NT—that Jesus’ death on the cross atoned for all our sin, not simply original sin (Rm 3:21–26; 2 Co 5:21). Because of that atonement, though we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, those who have placed faith in Christ will never face condemnation (Rm 5:1; 8:1; 2 Co 5:10).- The Apologetics Study Bible: Real Questions, Straight Answers, Stronger Faith (1541). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.

The apostle Peter contradicts all of the above when he says:

KJV  1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. (1Pe 4:1-7 KJV)

In the above Peter depicts the dead as being in a place where they could repent of their former rejection and speaking evilly of Christians and the life they preached, and then "live according to God in the spirit."

Its therefore implied these will rise up from death and Hades into life, not the lake of fire...on Judgment Day:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {hell: or, the grave}
 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-15 KJV)

I'm here to argue Peter is right and the Greeks, Latins and Protestors are wrong.

Peter's view alone is consistent with the Bible revelation the redeemed cannot be counted, but would be like the stars in the heavens as to number:

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (Gen 15:5 KJV)

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (Rev 7:9-10 KJV)

Anyone interested in these things? Bring it on!

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline mike

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Per the request of the moderator of this section, you are being muted indefinitely for your contempt for his moderatorial direction, and for arguing about your moderation publicly.  You should communicate with Fr. Chris directly via PM to discuss the terms under which your Muting will be lifted.

- Fr. George, Global Moderator

That decision still takes effect. It must have been some technical glitch that allowed you to post here. I'm asking to restore your muting.

Removal of your status depends on the decision of forum admin (FrChris has resigned from that function, Fr. George is currently the one). As far as I know one of the conditions is that you fulfill these requests:

Speaking now as a moderator, I must say that your attempts to dodge criticism of your point of view by engaging in such attempts to require others to prove their arguments before you will engage them is getting very trying of our patience. Please make an effort to engage ALL questions and challenges that force you to defend your arguments, not just those softballs you can hit out of the park. Otherwise, you're just using this forum as your personal soap box, which is not why this forum exists.

Now that you bring this up, let me speak to you frankly, as a moderator. I didn't respond solely to the tactic you employed with xariskai. To me, your tactic was merely a demonstration of a much bigger problem this forum has with how you engage us in general. Regardless of what you say about how you're here to enjoy good, intelligent conversation, your behavior on this forum betrays the fact that you are clearly here to pontificate. This in itself is not a problem; however, you have also shown an equally clear pattern of refusal to engage any questions or challenges that require you to defend or modify your point of view.

For instance, in my recent attempt to challenge you to show us where Paul uses the word "alone" in 2 Timothy 3:15-17, you first asserted that the concept of "Scripture alone" could be deduced from the text, which was not an answer to my challenge that you find the exact word "alone" written in the text. Then you dodged my challenge by arguing that Paul meant Scripture alone because the Scriptures are unique among literature and challenged me to prove you wrong. In doing so, you accused me of asserting that the Scriptures are NOT unique among literature, a claim I never made, and refused to engage my challenge until I could prove the argument you put into my mouth.

You have employed similar avoidance tactics with FrGiryus, whose repeated request that you explain your exegetical principles you never answered. Instead, you challenged FrGiryus to put his principles into action by interpreting a particular passage of scripture, you called his insistent questioning and statements on your resistance a series of ad hominem attacks, and you ultimately never answered his question.

You pose your personal experiences and your self-proclaimed direct revelations from God as the foundation of your authority to preach to us, thus making the subject of your authority central to any discussion of your interpretations of Scripture, yet you accuse us of trying to divert the discussion with ad hominem tactics and tell us that you don't want to talk about yourself when we question the authority you claim for yourself. When informed of how you can rephrase your words so others can understand you, you make no effort to accommodate us. You dodge questions by alleging that they're full of logical fallacies. I could go on, but I think that's sufficient to make my case that you simply refuse to engage us in any genuine two-way dialogue.

Alfred, this forum does not exist to be your personal soap box. This is a place for discussion. For discussion to work properly, you must be willing to actively engage points of view that disagree with your own, to defend your points of view with arguments crafted to directly address criticisms, and to admit that opposing points of view may be correct and that you may be wrong. Therefore, if you wish to continue participating in our discussion community, I charge you to start engaging opposing points of view and criticisms of your arguments in the way I have so described. Continued refusal to do so will necessitate increasing disciplinary action against you for thread commandeering, to include formal warnings, post moderation, muting, or even banning. I hope I'm making myself clear.

If you wish to ask questions or voice your disagreement with this warning, please do so via private message. I will not condone argument with the above directive here on this thread.

- PeterTheAleut
Orthodox-Protestant Discussion Moderator

« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 04:02:49 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.