Topic: Man arrested after throwing paint at a holy icon in Poland

[Eastern Mind]

http://www.france24.com/en/20121209-man-throws-paint-polish-miracle-virgin-mary-icon

Lord have mercy 

[LizaSymonenko]

This line really gets to me...coming from a representative from the monastery....

""The faithful have been calling us crying to ask what happened," monastery spokesman Father Robert Jasiulewicz told the news agency PAP.

"We've reassured them that the painting is intact.""

The PAINTING is intact?  Really?  Is that all it is?  A painting?

Sheesh!

[mike]

The PAINTING is intact?  Really?  Is that all it is?  A painting?

What would you expect from a Roman Catholic?

[Eastern Mind]

This line really gets to me...coming from a representative from the monastery....

""The faithful have been calling us crying to ask what happened," monastery spokesman Father Robert Jasiulewicz told the news agency PAP.

"We've reassured them that the painting is intact.""

The PAINTING is intact?  Really?  Is that all it is?  A painting?

Sheesh!

Yeah, that part really irritated me too <_<

[LBK]

To be fair, it could be a matter of translation. Even in Greek, eikona can simply mean picture or illustration in certain contexts.

[Shiny]

Well I'm sure he made it fully restored like this piece:

[biro]

The PAINTING is intact?  Really?  Is that all it is?  A painting?

What would you expect from a Roman Catholic?

Suddenly you care what they think?

[theistgal]

Sad that some people here are more angry at the RC's who may or may not called this a "painting" (as LBK pointed out, it could simply be a mistranslation) than at the psychopath who tried to deface it.

[Deacon Lance]

Sad that some people here are more angry at the RC's who may or may not called this a "painting" (as LBK pointed out, it could simply be a mistranslation) than at the psychopath who tried to deface it.

It is par for the course around here if you haven't noticed.

[Agabus]

Sad that some people here are more angry at the RC's who may or may not called this a "painting" (as LBK pointed out, it could simply be a mistranslation) than at the psychopath who tried to deface it.

It is par for the course around here if you haven't noticed.

It is a Jesuit conspiracy to destroy the faith.

Also, Catholics want to eat our babies.

Consider it a hangup from our wider cultural heritage.

[podkarpatska]

It seems to me that rather than worry about what word a news article may or may not have used in connection with this sorry incident, we Orthodox ought to rejoice that this most ancient and venerable of Icons was not damaged. While many of us may have historical, and in some cases, present day grievances regarding both the secular rulers of Poland and some of the religious leaders of Poland's Roman Catholic church (frankly these grievances are shared by many of the Greek Catholics over the centuries as well as the Orthodox), we can not deny the devotion directed by the Polish faithful towards the Blessed Mother and the venerable Icon of Czestochowa. If any devotional practice of our Roman Catholic brothers approaches the Orthodox concept of venerating icons, it can be found at this icon and within the pilgrimages of the faithful to Czestochowa.

[Schultz]

It seems to me that rather than worry about what word a news article may or may not have used in connection with this sorry incident, we Orthodox ought to rejoice that this most ancient and venerable of Icons was not damaged. While many of us may have historical, and in some cases, present day grievances regarding both the secular rulers of Poland and some of the religious leaders of Poland's Roman Catholic church (frankly these grievances are shared by many of the Greek Catholics over the centuries as well as the Orthodox), we can not deny the devotion directed by the Polish faithful towards the Blessed Mother and the venerable Icon of Czestochowa. If any devotional practice of our Roman Catholic brothers approaches the Orthodox concept of venerating icons, it can be found at this icon and within the pilgrimages of the faithful to Czestochowa.

How dare you try to inject reason and logic into this thread.  We are Orthodox and have no use for such scholasticism.

[Monk Vasyl]

Sad that some people here are more angry at the RC's who may or may not called this a "painting" (as LBK pointed out, it could simply be a mistranslation) than at the psychopath who tried to deface it.

It is par for the course around here if you haven't noticed.

It is a Jesuit conspiracy to destroy the faith.

Also, Catholics want to eat our babies.

Consider it a hangup from our wider cultural heritage.

So the Know Nothing Party is still alive and kicking?   

[podkarpatska]

It seems to me that rather than worry about what word a news article may or may not have used in connection with this sorry incident, we Orthodox ought to rejoice that this most ancient and venerable of Icons was not damaged. While many of us may have historical, and in some cases, present day grievances regarding both the secular rulers of Poland and some of the religious leaders of Poland's Roman Catholic church (frankly these grievances are shared by many of the Greek Catholics over the centuries as well as the Orthodox), we can not deny the devotion directed by the Polish faithful towards the Blessed Mother and the venerable Icon of Czestochowa. If any devotional practice of our Roman Catholic brothers approaches the Orthodox concept of venerating icons, it can be found at this icon and within the pilgrimages of the faithful to Czestochowa.

How dare you try to inject reason and logic into this thread.  We are Orthodox and have no use for such scholasticism.

Sorry, I guess I was taught in law school that truth was an absolute defense. Must be one of those evil Thomistic teachings.....

[LizaSymonenko]

Sad that some people here are more angry at the RC's who may or may not called this a "painting" (as LBK pointed out, it could simply be a mistranslation) than at the psychopath who tried to deface it.

No, no....I am also concerned about the man with the paint...and really am curious as to his intentions and reasons behind his action.

I was less worried about the icon because someone had the forethought to actually put glass around it - which was an excellent idea.

My concern over calling an icon a "painting" is not nitpicking or overlooking the "act" of vandalism, but, a concern for showing an icon due respect.  Too often people think of icons as nothing more than paintings, works of art, etc.  That was my only concern.

If this is truly a error in translation I happily stand corrected.  No harm was meant....only concern for respect towards things holy.

How do you know this man is a psychopath, without knowing anything about him, or his motives?   

[theistgal]

Ok, Lisa, you're right, I'm sure he had a sane logical reason for throwing buckets of paint at the Theotokos.

[LizaSymonenko]

Ok, Lisa, you're right, I'm sure he had a sane logical reason for throwing buckets of paint at the Theotokos.

To him it may have seemed logical.  That's why I am interested in his reasoning.  Just because he's made a mistake doesn't mean he's insane....only mislead.

Again...nor harm was intended by me in my comment.

[podkarpatska]

Time out all - isn't it possible to be a criminal or an anarchist without being psychotic? I think that's what Liza meant.... If one truly were deranged he or she would not possess the same moral culpability - surely we don't excuse all criminal or anti-social actions on the basis of psychotic disorder....

[sheenj]

Ok, Lisa, you're right, I'm sure he had a sane logical reason for throwing buckets of paint at the Theotokos.

If being illogical was proof of psychosis, then most of us would probably be locked up right now. 

[mike]

If any devotional practice of our Roman Catholic brothers approaches the Orthodox concept of venerating icons, it can be found at this icon and within the pilgrimages of the faithful to Czestochowa.

It's far from ours. They tend to reproduce that icon without Christ (only Theotokos is seen):



That distorts icon theology, especially when it comes to the Hodegetria type.

[podkarpatska]

I've not seen that clipped version here in the States though...perhaps I haven't been looking though.

[theistgal]

SIGH.  

I used the term "psychopath" in a completely NON-clinical way, to describe the jerk (how's that? ) who defaced the icon (which Webster's defines as a "flat panel painting" btw) with paint, in an effort to be charitable, because I would hate to just assume that someone would DELIBERATELY set out, with malice aforethought, to basically spit in the Theotokos' face.

OK?  

[sheenj]

I would hate to just assume that someone would DELIBERATELY set out, with malice aforethought, to basically spit in the Theotokos' face.

OK?  

We're still talking about humans here right? The same people who, when presented with God himself, decided that nailing him to a stick was their best option?

[Monk Vasyl]

If any devotional practice of our Roman Catholic brothers approaches the Orthodox concept of venerating icons, it can be found at this icon and within the pilgrimages of the faithful to Czestochowa.

It's far from ours. They tend to reproduce that icon without Christ (only Theotokos is seen):



That distorts icon theology, especially when it comes to the Hodegetria type.

This isn't the first time this icon was desecrated.   You can clearly see the wounds on the Mother of God's face.  This also brings back the memory of Michelangelo's Pieta being hit with a hammer.

[theistgal]

I would hate to just assume that someone would DELIBERATELY set out, with malice aforethought, to basically spit in the Theotokos' face.

OK?  

We're still talking about humans here right? The same people who, when presented with God himself, decided that nailing him to a stick was their best option?

I don't know what I'm talking about anymore in this thread, I feel like no matter what I say it's going to be scorned or ridiculed, so I'm just going to bow out and do some baking (and praying).

[biro]

I've seen the Theotokos depicted alone before. I have a small Russian icon of 'The Multiplier of Wheat." I think it was mentioned in this thread. In it, the infant Christ is not there, and the Theotokos is alone, in prayer (apparently). She's hovering over a field. Yes, hovering.

[LizaSymonenko]

I've seen that one, too.  I know LBK discussed that one somewhere.  I will have to search for it.

However, there's also the Pokrov icon, where she stands alone, spreading her veil of protection over us.

[sheenj]

I would hate to just assume that someone would DELIBERATELY set out, with malice aforethought, to basically spit in the Theotokos' face.

OK? 

We're still talking about humans here right? The same people who, when presented with God himself, decided that nailing him to a stick was their best option?

I don't know what I'm talking about anymore in this thread, I feel like no matter what I say it's going to be scorned or ridiculed, so I'm just going to bow out and do some baking (and praying).

My apologies, I wasn't trying to ridicule you. I guess I'm just too jaded to be suprised at the depths humans can go to. 

[theistgal]

I would hate to just assume that someone would DELIBERATELY set out, with malice aforethought, to basically spit in the Theotokos' face.

OK? 

We're still talking about humans here right? The same people who, when presented with God himself, decided that nailing him to a stick was their best option?

I don't know what I'm talking about anymore in this thread, I feel like no matter what I say it's going to be scorned or ridiculed, so I'm just going to bow out and do some baking (and praying).

My apologies, I wasn't trying to ridicule you. I guess I'm just too jaded to be suprised at the depths humans can go to. 

Thanks; it was the tone of the whole thread, not you personally. 

[Cyrillic]

I would hate to just assume that someone would DELIBERATELY set out, with malice aforethought, to basically spit in the Theotokos' face.

OK? 

We're still talking about humans here right? The same people who, when presented with God himself, decided that nailing him to a stick was their best option?

I don't know what I'm talking about anymore in this thread, I feel like no matter what I say it's going to be scorned or ridiculed, so I'm just going to bow out and do some baking (and praying).

My apologies, I wasn't trying to ridicule you. I guess I'm just too jaded to be suprised at the depths humans can go to. 

Thanks; it was the tone of the whole thread, not you personally. 

Aw, don't take it too personal. We all just get a little grumpy here on OC.net when it comes to icons.

[LizaSymonenko]

I like to think that we aren't so much grumpy, as we are respectful and protective of them.   

Sorry theistgal if I offended you.  I didn't mean to.  Honest.

[Justin Kissel]

What's a long fasting period without grumpiness? 

[mike]

Patriarch Kirill considers an attempt to desecrate main Poland's shrine as an insult of Polish and Russian nations
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=10163

[Tommelomsky]

Patriarch Kirill considers an attempt to desecrate main Poland's shrine as an insult of Polish and Russian nations
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=10163

Understandable, as it really is so.

[rakovsky]

Well I'm sure he made it fully restored like this piece:

Achronos,

I feel that at least partway through the "restoration" they must have known it would not turn out right.