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Author Topic: Dialogue with a Catholic Priest - Points to bring up?  (Read 1171 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dan the Man
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« on: December 10, 2012, 10:58:35 AM »

I'll begin this thread with a bit of back-story: I've been an inquirer for something around two years now. Well, alright, more like a lazy, cowardly jerk who would rather read about how great Orthodoxy is from behind the relative safety of a computer than actually take moves to make an official conversion. Tongue I am now 18 years old and I first became interested in Orthodoxy when I was 16. Because I was still a minor and didn't have a driver's license yet, it was difficult for me to make any real efforts without running afoul of my mother and father, being the devout Catholic parents they are. They have known about my interest almost since the beginning, and one of their requirements for letting me make any changes was that I first consult with a Catholic priest, to get a more knowledgeable second opinion than they could provide by themselves. I think that this is probably in hopes that he could get me to change my mind. Either way, I put it off for two years, which frankly I don't regret, since it gave me time to deal with some personal hurdles that simply had to be cleared before I could start to go forward in good conscience. I finally made the appointment last night with the pastor of my home church. I just have to call him later this week to confirm a date, likely sometime after our parish's annual Christmas craziness.

So now comes the time for preparation: This is likely going to be a debate of some sort - a respectful one, but a debate nonetheless - so I need to start taking down notes on potential points and arguments to bring up in the conversation. The real deal breakers that have been pushing me away from Catholicism consist of Papal infallibility, and all of the nasty things it has spawned over the years; the filioque clause; and the Catholic church's changes away from traditionalism in recent years.

So, OC.net, I need your help: If anybody has any interesting ideas or arguments on any of the above issues, or certainly other ideas if you think they're important and worth discussing, please let me know here. Please bear in mind that I'm not trying to get you guys to do my homework for me or anything, it's just that I want to make sure I'm as knowledgeable on every issue as I can be, and I want to do that by picking as many brains as possible. I already have plenty of ideas of my own, but I would feel much more confident going into this if I had more, just to make sure every possible base is covered. Anything from any source, be it your own logic (so long as it's sound logic laugh), websites, text sources, and everything in between is perfectly welcome and helpful. I have also enlisted a few Orthodox friends from the real world for help in this endeavor.

Thank you all! If you can't provide any information for me, prayers always help as well, of course. Smiley
-Dan
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2012, 11:01:54 AM »

Personally, and FWIW, I wouldn't engage in argument at all. Just tell him how you feel about Orthodoxy and listen respectfully to what he has to say.
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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2012, 01:44:12 PM »

Personally, and FWIW, I wouldn't engage in argument at all. Just tell him how you feel about Orthodoxy and listen respectfully to what he has to say.
Yeah, that is basically what's going on, sorry if that wasn't clear. I just want to make sure I have enough knowledge from enough sources to present a well-founded opinion. I don't expect to have a knock-down, drag-out argument over this lol. I've known this priest for my entire life, in fact he's the priest who baptized me, so I have every intention of giving him all of the respect he deserves. Argument was probably too strong of a word for this, in retrospect. The only reason I'm preparing to have to put up a defense is because my family is expecting the pastor to convince me against converting. If that's what ends up happening, my goal is to be able to state my case as well as possible. It doesn't have to be a full-blown debate at all, in fact I really hope it doesn't turn out that way.
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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2012, 02:16:07 PM »

I agree, why even debate?  Just speak to the priest and then listen.  If you think you cannot answer back whatever he has to say, then think about it and decide if it is an imoprtant issue or not.  If you wish you can then figure out the answer later.  If it is not important then just disregard it.  You don't have to answer anything and everything the priest or anyone else will throw at you.  Belonging to a Church doesn't mean you have to have the answer to everything.
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2012, 02:20:39 PM »

I'll begin this thread with a bit of back-story: I've been an inquirer for something around two years now. Well, alright, more like a lazy, cowardly jerk who would rather read about how great Orthodoxy is from behind the relative safety of a computer than actually take moves to make an official conversion. Tongue I am now 18 years old and I first became interested in Orthodoxy when I was 16. Because I was still a minor and didn't have a driver's license yet, it was difficult for me to make any real efforts without running afoul of my mother and father, being the devout Catholic parents they are. They have known about my interest almost since the beginning, and one of their requirements for letting me make any changes was that I first consult with a Catholic priest, to get a more knowledgeable second opinion than they could provide by themselves. I think that this is probably in hopes that he could get me to change my mind. Either way, I put it off for two years, which frankly I don't regret, since it gave me time to deal with some personal hurdles that simply had to be cleared before I could start to go forward in good conscience. I finally made the appointment last night with the pastor of my home church. I just have to call him later this week to confirm a date, likely sometime after our parish's annual Christmas craziness.

So now comes the time for preparation: This is likely going to be a debate of some sort - a respectful one, but a debate nonetheless - so I need to start taking down notes on potential points and arguments to bring up in the conversation. The real deal breakers that have been pushing me away from Catholicism consist of Papal infallibility, and all of the nasty things it has spawned over the years; the filioque clause; and the Catholic church's changes away from traditionalism in recent years.

So, OC.net, I need your help: If anybody has any interesting ideas or arguments on any of the above issues, or certainly other ideas if you think they're important and worth discussing, please let me know here. Please bear in mind that I'm not trying to get you guys to do my homework for me or anything, it's just that I want to make sure I'm as knowledgeable on every issue as I can be, and I want to do that by picking as many brains as possible. I already have plenty of ideas of my own, but I would feel much more confident going into this if I had more, just to make sure every possible base is covered. Anything from any source, be it your own logic (so long as it's sound logic laugh), websites, text sources, and everything in between is perfectly welcome and helpful. I have also enlisted a few Orthodox friends from the real world for help in this endeavor.

Thank you all! If you can't provide any information for me, prayers always help as well, of course. Smiley
-Dan
As for putting it "off" for two years, better that than rush in and burnt out before the oil of chrismation dries.  It happens all too often.  It also sounds like it gave you time to deal with distractions that might muddle the decision.

You have evidently put the time to good use. The understanding you reached with your parents is commendable-it might head off problems later if and when you are received.  Your parents can rest their own consciences that they did what was expected of them by their ecclesiastical community, and you can be sure of what you are leaving, and why.

You also seem to know the difference between 'netodoxy and Orthodoxy, seeing as you have enlisted real Orthodox (not that we are not real here, but electronics do not count for real human contact).

Do you plan on just meeting once, and giving him just one shot, or discussing the matter as long as it might profitable be discussed.  It makes a difference as to what data you need to collect now.

When you say "Papal infallibility" are you including papal supremacy (as Pastor Aeternus does)?

You can PM me if you like.  I'd second what Katherineofdixie said, but you already did that.
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« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2012, 02:22:08 PM »

I am now 18 years old and I first became interested in Orthodoxy when I was 16. Because I was still a minor and didn't have a driver's license yet, it was difficult for me to make any real efforts

Hello Dan,

Sounds familiar  Smiley

So now comes the time for preparation: This is likely going to be a debate of some sort - a respectful one, but a debate nonetheless - so I need to start taking down notes on potential points and arguments to bring up in the conversation. The real deal breakers that have been pushing me away from Catholicism consist of Papal infallibility, and all of the nasty things it has spawned over the years; the filioque clause; and the Catholic church's changes away from traditionalism in recent years.

I would try to avoid a debate but here are some things for if you go through with it:

1) The Early Church Fathers didn't teach Papal Infallibility. So far for the "faith once delivered to the saints"

One source that does mention it (St. Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses 3.3 if I remember correctly) is not reliable since the original Greek is lost and it is only available in a Latin translation. They might have interpolated or mistranslated that part to justify papal power. Don't bring the part about Ireneaus up unless he refers to it, though. It might weaken your position.

2) He will likely quote from the Scriptures where it says that the Son sends the Spirit as proof of the filioque. This, however, refers to temporal mission of the Holy Spirit and not to the hypostatic procession. The verb used there (most often a variant of ienai - to send) is quite different than ekporeuomai, which is used for the hypostatic procession.

3) He might bring up the part in Revelation where a stream flows from the throne of the Father and the Lamb to justify the filioque. If this passage refers to the filioque it suggests that the Holy Spirit proceeds from to sources (two thrones in Revelations). This notion even the Roman Church anathematises. Besides, the Church Fathers always interpret that stream as the waters of Baptism.

4) "The Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father" John 15:26, remember it by heart.

5) The Council of Ephesus (431), Canon VII, condemned any alteration of the creed.

6) Not even the Latin Church Fathers, such as Sts. Ambrose and Augustine, interpreted Matth. 16:18 in the papal sense, let alone the Greek Fathers.

7) The Early Church used leavened bread for the Eucharist, not azymes. Azymes are't proper matter (to speak in Thomistic language) for the Eucharist. It is a Judaizing practice. You might not want to bring up this point, though.

8.) The "Spirit of the Son" in Galatians 4:6 doesn't refer to the hypostasis of the Holy Spirit, but to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which is quite obvious if you read the context. I got this from Fr. Potapov.

9) Any quote from the Greek Church Fathers in favor of the filioque is either far-fetched or doesn't use the key word ekporeuetai, but some form of ienai or cheo. Again, these passages don't refer to the eternal procession but this isn't as clear in an English translation as it is in the Greek original
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 02:26:56 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2012, 05:10:04 PM »

One source that does mention it (St. Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses 3.3 if I remember correctly) is not reliable since the original Greek is lost and it is only available in a Latin translation. They might have interpolated or mistranslated that part to justify papal power. Don't bring the part about Ireneaus up unless he refers to it, though. It might weaken your position.
I have some problems with posting (computer maxed right now), but I've posted a lot on this passage here (and elsewhere).  But a short answer that doesn't involve much is that the passage in question does not present Rome as the sun which extends the rays of Truth to the other Churches.  Rather it was the crucible where Orthodox and heretic came from all the other Churches and in the heated exchange in the Capital of the World the fires of Orthodoxy brought there from all the Churches burned off the dross of heresy that congregated there as well, leaving the gold mined from the ore of all the Churches.

You might all mention that St. Irenaeus wrote to the Archbishop (Pope was not taken by Rome until centuries later, although just after St. Iranaeus the title was conferred on the Archbishop of Alexandria) Victor I, agreeing with the "rebuke" (as recorded by Eusebius) given  Abp. Victor by "all the Churches" when he tried to dictate to the Church of Ephesus and All Asia.
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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2012, 07:07:41 PM »

Thank you for the replies everyone! I'll try to answer each one as best as I can.

I agree, why even debate?  Just speak to the priest and then listen.  If you think you cannot answer back whatever he has to say, then think about it and decide if it is an imoprtant issue or not.  If you wish you can then figure out the answer later.  If it is not important then just disregard it.  You don't have to answer anything and everything the priest or anyone else will throw at you.  Belonging to a Church doesn't mean you have to have the answer to everything.
Understood. Wink Trust me, I intend to keep this as far from divisive exchange as possible. I believe that this will simply be a good opportunity for me to restate my own opinion for myself, expand my knowledge of the subject matter, and prove the seriousness of my intent to my pastor and my family. Just to reiterate, it does not need to be a "debate" per se, and in fact, I really hope I can avoid seeing it become one. I'll remember yours and Katherineofdixie's advice in the conversation, to make sure I don't get carried away.

As for putting it "off" for two years, better that than rush in and burnt out before the oil of chrismation dries.  It happens all too often.  It also sounds like it gave you time to deal with distractions that might muddle the decision.

You have evidently put the time to good use. The understanding you reached with your parents is commendable-it might head off problems later if and when you are received.  Your parents can rest their own consciences that they did what was expected of them by their ecclesiastical community, and you can be sure of what you are leaving, and why.

You also seem to know the difference between 'netodoxy and Orthodoxy, seeing as you have enlisted real Orthodox (not that we are not real here, but electronics do not count for real human contact).

Do you plan on just meeting once, and giving him just one shot, or discussing the matter as long as it might profitable be discussed.  It makes a difference as to what data you need to collect now.

When you say "Papal infallibility" are you including papal supremacy (as Pastor Aeternus does)?

You can PM me if you like.  I'd second what Katherineofdixie said, but you already did that.
Thank you! Yes, I do intend to make it into a multi-visit dialogue. We may end up playing that by ear though, since I don't know how busy my priest will be in the coming months, nor am I completely sure of what my parents expect of me. Either way, at this point I don't expect everything to unfold over the course of a single meeting. I will continue to hear him as long as he has something he wants to tell me. He deserves that much, as does my family. Smiley

On papal infallibility vs. papal supremacy...hmm...the answer would be a yes and a no I suppose. I am definitely aware of Primus inter Pares as the Orthodox idea on the primacy/supremacy of Rome, but that doesn't quite lend itself the same power as the Roman definition of papal power, and it certainly doesn't afford infallibility. I suppose infallibility is more the core issue, while supremacy itself is still important but not quite as bluntly polarized as infallibility. I hope that explains things well enough, I'm tripping over my words here. Tongue

I am now 18 years old and I first became interested in Orthodoxy when I was 16. Because I was still a minor and didn't have a driver's license yet, it was difficult for me to make any real efforts

Hello Dan,

Sounds familiar  Smiley

So now comes the time for preparation: This is likely going to be a debate of some sort - a respectful one, but a debate nonetheless - so I need to start taking down notes on potential points and arguments to bring up in the conversation. The real deal breakers that have been pushing me away from Catholicism consist of Papal infallibility, and all of the nasty things it has spawned over the years; the filioque clause; and the Catholic church's changes away from traditionalism in recent years.

I would try to avoid a debate but here are some things for if you go through with it:

1) The Early Church Fathers didn't teach Papal Infallibility. So far for the "faith once delivered to the saints"

One source that does mention it (St. Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses 3.3 if I remember correctly) is not reliable since the original Greek is lost and it is only available in a Latin translation. They might have interpolated or mistranslated that part to justify papal power. Don't bring the part about Ireneaus up unless he refers to it, though. It might weaken your position.

2) He will likely quote from the Scriptures where it says that the Son sends the Spirit as proof of the filioque. This, however, refers to temporal mission of the Holy Spirit and not to the hypostatic procession. The verb used there (most often a variant of ienai - to send) is quite different than ekporeuomai, which is used for the hypostatic procession.

3) He might bring up the part in Revelation where a stream flows from the throne of the Father and the Lamb to justify the filioque. If this passage refers to the filioque it suggests that the Holy Spirit proceeds from to sources (two thrones in Revelations). This notion even the Roman Church anathematises. Besides, the Church Fathers always interpret that stream as the waters of Baptism.

4) "The Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father" John 15:26, remember it by heart.

5) The Council of Ephesus (431), Canon VII, condemned any alteration of the creed.

6) Not even the Latin Church Fathers, such as Sts. Ambrose and Augustine, interpreted Matth. 16:18 in the papal sense, let alone the Greek Fathers.

7) The Early Church used leavened bread for the Eucharist, not azymes. Azymes are't proper matter (to speak in Thomistic language) for the Eucharist. It is a Judaizing practice. You might not want to bring up this point, though.

8.) The "Spirit of the Son" in Galatians 4:6 doesn't refer to the hypostasis of the Holy Spirit, but to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which is quite obvious if you read the context. I got this from Fr. Potapov.

9) Any quote from the Greek Church Fathers in favor of the filioque is either far-fetched or doesn't use the key word ekporeuetai, but some form of ienai or cheo. Again, these passages don't refer to the eternal procession but this isn't as clear in an English translation as it is in the Greek original
Ahah, these are perfect! Thank you! Cheesy I just wanted to address one thing:

Quote
"The Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father" John 15:26, remember it by heart.
I have seen this countered with John 10:30, which says "I and the Father are one." The logic here is that it is more "implied" that the Spirit must proceed from the Father and the Son, since, by Christ's own words, they are one. This connection seems somewhat dubious to me, but I don't really know how to make a counterpoint for it beyond that. Undecided I don't mean to start a full-blown theological discussion here in this thread, but I would like to know the Orthodox answer to this point, for my own sake.

One source that does mention it (St. Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses 3.3 if I remember correctly) is not reliable since the original Greek is lost and it is only available in a Latin translation. They might have interpolated or mistranslated that part to justify papal power. Don't bring the part about Ireneaus up unless he refers to it, though. It might weaken your position.
I have some problems with posting (computer maxed right now), but I've posted a lot on this passage here (and elsewhere).  But a short answer that doesn't involve much is that the passage in question does not present Rome as the sun which extends the rays of Truth to the other Churches.  Rather it was the crucible where Orthodox and heretic came from all the other Churches and in the heated exchange in the Capital of the World the fires of Orthodoxy brought there from all the Churches burned off the dross of heresy that congregated there as well, leaving the gold mined from the ore of all the Churches.

You might all mention that St. Irenaeus wrote to the Archbishop (Pope was not taken by Rome until centuries later, although just after St. Iranaeus the title was conferred on the Archbishop of Alexandria) Victor I, agreeing with the "rebuke" (as recorded by Eusebius) given  Abp. Victor by "all the Churches" when he tried to dictate to the Church of Ephesus and All Asia.
Interesting explanation. I'll definitely be sure to refer back to this if he brings up this point.

Thank you all again for your answers. I also apologize if the formatting is a little weird on this post, I've still not quite gotten used to using this type of forum yet. Tongue
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2012, 07:10:46 PM »

I didn't even talk to the people at my former parish at all. I just left.
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 07:23:09 PM »

So, OC.net, I need your help: If anybody has any interesting ideas or arguments on any of the above issues, or certainly other ideas if you think they're important and worth discussing, please let me know here. Please bear in mind that I'm not trying to get you guys to do my homework for me or anything, it's just that I want to make sure I'm as knowledgeable on every issue as I can be, and I want to do that by picking as many brains as possible. I already have plenty of ideas of my own, but I would feel much more confident going into this if I had more, just to make sure every possible base is covered. Anything from any source, be it your own logic (so long as it's sound logic laugh), websites, text sources, and everything in between is perfectly welcome and helpful. I have also enlisted a few Orthodox friends from the real world for help in this endeavor.

Thank you all! If you can't provide any information for me, prayers always help as well, of course. Smiley
-Dan

Have you attended an Orthodox Divine Liturgy?
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 07:31:31 PM »

I didn't even talk to the people at my former parish at all. I just left.
I had hoped to do the same thing as well, but it's difficult when my family is so involved there. My siblings regularly volunteer for church functions, my mom and aunt actually work in the church rectory as secretaries, my dad attends mass every morning etc.

So, OC.net, I need your help: If anybody has any interesting ideas or arguments on any of the above issues, or certainly other ideas if you think they're important and worth discussing, please let me know here. Please bear in mind that I'm not trying to get you guys to do my homework for me or anything, it's just that I want to make sure I'm as knowledgeable on every issue as I can be, and I want to do that by picking as many brains as possible. I already have plenty of ideas of my own, but I would feel much more confident going into this if I had more, just to make sure every possible base is covered. Anything from any source, be it your own logic (so long as it's sound logic laugh), websites, text sources, and everything in between is perfectly welcome and helpful. I have also enlisted a few Orthodox friends from the real world for help in this endeavor.

Thank you all! If you can't provide any information for me, prayers always help as well, of course. Smiley
-Dan

Have you attended an Orthodox Divine Liturgy?
Unfortunately no, I have not. I have seen them before via Youtube, but I haven't been able to experience one first hand yet, mostly because I have not been allowed to do so until this dialogue is finished. It's most definitely the next thing I plan to do after this is over, however. Trust me, I have no intention of waltzing into a church and asking for my catechumenate without ever having been to a Divine Liturgy. laugh
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 07:34:32 PM by Dan the Man » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 07:38:33 PM »

I didn't even talk to the people at my former parish at all. I just left.
That would've been my plan as well. Tongue

So, OC.net, I need your help: If anybody has any interesting ideas or arguments on any of the above issues, or certainly other ideas if you think they're important and worth discussing, please let me know here. Please bear in mind that I'm not trying to get you guys to do my homework for me or anything, it's just that I want to make sure I'm as knowledgeable on every issue as I can be, and I want to do that by picking as many brains as possible. I already have plenty of ideas of my own, but I would feel much more confident going into this if I had more, just to make sure every possible base is covered. Anything from any source, be it your own logic (so long as it's sound logic laugh), websites, text sources, and everything in between is perfectly welcome and helpful. I have also enlisted a few Orthodox friends from the real world for help in this endeavor.

Thank you all! If you can't provide any information for me, prayers always help as well, of course. Smiley
-Dan

Have you attended an Orthodox Divine Liturgy?
Unfortunately no, I have not. I have seen them before via Youtube, but I haven't been able to experience one first hand yet, mostly because I have not been allowed to do so until this dialogue is finished. It's most definitely the next thing I plan to do after this is over, however. Trust me, I have no intention of waltzing into a church and asking for my catechumenate without ever having been to a Divine Liturgy. laugh

I realize that you want to respect your parents' wishes; however, can your Orthodox friends come by your house and take you to Liturgy with them?
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2012, 07:40:39 PM »

I can share my experience on this. After thinking about this more and more since october 2011, I decided to tell the people at the parish office and my priest in april this year about what went on and was happening to me (by then I was more and more drawn to the Orthodox Church and began attending Divine Liturgy in my present parish). Didn`t really say goodbye to so many people, just left.

The people at my old parish didn`t like it at all or understand what I was doing. But they didn`t have to either. I took a choice, followed the heart and has never looked back.

Two twings here:

1. Listen to what the priest has to offer of comments/insights. But:
2. Do listen mostly to your own heart, trust in God, pray, attend Divine Liturgy and get to talk/get to know people (give it time, read about orthodox faith and if..you like it, then take small steps (step by step).

Understand that Orthodox faith is very different in some ways that it is in the catholic church. But look at it is as depth, insight and true love.
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 07:52:53 PM »

I realize that you want to respect your parents' wishes; however, can your Orthodox friends come by your house and take you to Liturgy with them?
That's just not in the cards at the moment, unfortunately, for various reasons besides the wishes of my family. I do now have access to a car, however, and I plan on taking myself to a church as soon as possible. Know that I do understand how absolutely vital it is that I attend Liturgy before I make any serious moves, but this is something that simply has to get done first. I know that I might not be following the steps in exactly the right order here, but I'm trying to do the best I can with what I have right now. I will attend as soon as I possibly can, that's a promise.

I can share my experience on this. After thinking about this more and more since october 2011, I decided to tell the people at the parish office and my priest in april this year about what went on and was happening to me (by then I was more and more drawn to the Orthodox Church and began attending Divine Liturgy in my present parish). Didn`t really say goodbye to so many people, just left.

The people at my old parish didn`t like it at all or understand what I was doing. But they didn`t have to either. I took a choice, followed the heart and has never looked back.

Two twings here:

1. Listen to what the priest has to offer of comments/insights. But:
2. Do listen mostly to your own heart, trust in God, pray, attend Divine Liturgy and get to talk/get to know people (give it time, read about orthodox faith and if..you like it, then take small steps (step by step).

Understand that Orthodox faith is very different in some ways that it is in the catholic church. But look at it is as depth, insight and true love.
Excellent advice! Thank you! Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2012, 08:29:49 PM »

I realize that you want to respect your parents' wishes; however, can your Orthodox friends come by your house and take you to Liturgy with them?
That's just not in the cards at the moment, unfortunately, for various reasons besides the wishes of my family. I do now have access to a car, however, and I plan on taking myself to a church as soon as possible. Know that I do understand how absolutely vital it is that I attend Liturgy before I make any serious moves, but this is something that simply has to get done first. I know that I might not be following the steps in exactly the right order here, but I'm trying to do the best I can with what I have right now. I will attend as soon as I possibly can, that's a promise.

OK, I would simply tell your Priest that I'm interested in exploring the Eastern Orthodox faith - nothing more, nothing less and let him direct the conversation.  I don't anticipate your Priest challenging you on this decision unless you attend a conservative Catholic Church.
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 09:51:54 PM »

I'll agree with what some have more or less said. Ask him questions, listen, mention your feelings, but don't actually debate or argue.
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« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2012, 08:57:35 AM »


I have seen this countered with John 10:30, which says "I and the Father are one." The logic here is that it is more "implied" that the Spirit must proceed from the Father and the Son, since, by Christ's own words, they are one. This connection seems somewhat dubious to me, but I don't really know how to make a counterpoint for it beyond that. Undecided I don't mean to start a full-blown theological discussion here in this thread, but I would like to know the Orthodox answer to this point, for my own sake.

I and the Father are one, I think, means that they are one in essence (homoousios - or consubstantial). The procession of the Holy Spirit isn't an "act" (by lack of a better word) of the ousia (because if that would be so the Holy Spirit must proceed from Itself as well - quite insane) but of the hypostasis (person) of the Father.
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« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2012, 11:15:41 AM »

One source that does mention it (St. Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses 3.3 if I remember correctly) is not reliable since the original Greek is lost and it is only available in a Latin translation. They might have interpolated or mistranslated that part to justify papal power. Don't bring the part about Ireneaus up unless he refers to it, though. It might weaken your position.
I have some problems with posting (computer maxed right now), but I've posted a lot on this passage here (and elsewhere).  But a short answer that doesn't involve much is that the passage in question does not present Rome as the sun which extends the rays of Truth to the other Churches.  Rather it was the crucible where Orthodox and heretic came from all the other Churches and in the heated exchange in the Capital of the World the fires of Orthodoxy brought there from all the Churches burned off the dross of heresy that congregated there as well, leaving the gold mined from the ore of all the Churches.

That's indeed what the 'footnote' (which is multiple pages long IIRC - I haven't read Adversus Haereses in a while) of the NPNF-translation says. The verb used in that passage, 'convenire ad', is quite ambiguous as well.
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« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2012, 11:36:45 AM »

The difference between the Orthodox interpretation and the Roman Catholic interpretation of St.Peter's role as Apostle/Bishop?...
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« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2012, 12:55:00 PM »


I have seen this countered with John 10:30, which says "I and the Father are one." The logic here is that it is more "implied" that the Spirit must proceed from the Father and the Son, since, by Christ's own words, they are one. This connection seems somewhat dubious to me, but I don't really know how to make a counterpoint for it beyond that. Undecided I don't mean to start a full-blown theological discussion here in this thread, but I would like to know the Orthodox answer to this point, for my own sake.

I and the Father are one, I think, means that they are one in essence (homoousios - or consubstantial). The procession of the Holy Spirit isn't an "act" (by lack of a better word) of the ousia (because if that would be so the Holy Spirit must proceed from Itself as well - quite insane) but of the hypostasis (person) of the Father.
Not only that, but if the Procession must come from both, because the Father and Son are one, then the "act" of begetting must come from both as well, i.e. the Son must beget Himself with the Father.

The Son is not begotten from, nor does the Spirit process from, the Divine essence, but from the Person of the Father, which is how the Persons are One in Essence.
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« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2012, 08:28:49 AM »

I also believe that you should concentrate more on your knowledge of Orthodoxy than preparing to defend against anything that the priest says. I believe that most "NO" priests these days will just want to make sure that you're aware of your decision; that he's doing this more for your parents. So I think that if you can show why you feel this way, you'll be ok.

Just my two cents anyways...
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« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2012, 08:38:14 AM »

I also believe that you should concentrate more on your knowledge of Orthodoxy than preparing to defend against anything that the priest says. I believe that most "NO" priests these days will just want to make sure that you're aware of your decision; that he's doing this more for your parents. So I think that if you can show why you feel this way, you'll be ok.

Just my two cents anyways...

He describes his parents as devout catholics, so maybe they're in an (ultra-?)traditionalist parish.
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« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2012, 08:41:25 AM »

I also believe that you should concentrate more on your knowledge of Orthodoxy than preparing to defend against anything that the priest says. I believe that most "NO" priests these days will just want to make sure that you're aware of your decision; that he's doing this more for your parents. So I think that if you can show why you feel this way, you'll be ok.

Just my two cents anyways...

He describes his parents as devout catholics, so maybe they're in an (ultra-?)traditionalist parish.

That could be the case too. I was just playing the odds  laugh
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« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2012, 02:33:37 PM »

I don't know how your priest is, but when I began exploring apostolic Christianity, I visited an RC priest and I explained to him my dilemma between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. He simply told me that I should keep exploring and choose the Church that best nurtures my communion with God.

I spoke to another RC priest online, and while he was more defensive of his faith, he told me that both churches are Christ's Church and that I should ultimately follow my heart (after prayer and consultation, of course).

Somehow, I don't think your priest will adopt an extreme view against Orthodoxy. He might be slightly troubled that you're leaving the Catholic Church, but once he hears you out, he'll probably be supportive of your journey towards Christ. It's not like you're joining the Mormons, or even some Protestant group; most Catholics (at least the ones I've met) affirm that the Orthodox Church is Christ's Church, albeit in schism with its "head," the pope. Ecumenism for the win! Wink

But I pray that you will have an enlightening, constructive conversation.
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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2012, 03:13:24 PM »

I don't know how your priest is, but when I began exploring apostolic Christianity, I visited an RC priest and I explained to him my dilemma between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. He simply told me that I should keep exploring and choose the Church that best nurtures my communion with God.

I spoke to another RC priest online, and while he was more defensive of his faith, he told me that both churches are Christ's Church and that I should ultimately follow my heart (after prayer and consultation, of course).

Somehow, I don't think your priest will adopt an extreme view against Orthodoxy. He might be slightly troubled that you're leaving the Catholic Church, but once he hears you out, he'll probably be supportive of your journey towards Christ. It's not like you're joining the Mormons, or even some Protestant group; most Catholics (at least the ones I've met) affirm that the Orthodox Church is Christ's Church, albeit in schism with its "head," the pope. Ecumenism for the win! Wink

But I pray that you will have an enlightening, constructive conversation.

Awesome priests!
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« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2012, 03:47:07 PM »

I also believe that you should concentrate more on your knowledge of Orthodoxy than preparing to defend against anything that the priest says. I believe that most "NO" priests these days will just want to make sure that you're aware of your decision; that he's doing this more for your parents. So I think that if you can show why you feel this way, you'll be ok.

Just my two cents anyways...

He describes his parents as devout catholics, so maybe they're in an (ultra-?)traditionalist parish.

Many Novus Ordo Catholics are devout people and honestly believe "neo-catholicism" ( as in neoconservatism). The divide has not necessarily anything to do with being devout or not.

If it is an average NO priest he will speak with, I am betting on ConfusedRC's prediction.
If it is a Conservative (non-traddie and neocon) RC priest, he could be in a bit more trouble, but not as much as he would be in if the conversation was about going into RC Traditionalism.. *lol*
If the priest actually believes Catholic dogma, it may be a more troublesome affair. Depends on the pastoral approach, I'd say.
If
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