If the Reformation never Happened?

[JamesR]

If the Protestant Reformation never happened, how do you imagine that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches would be? Would we be any different? Would our theology have gone in a different direction? Where would we be right now? The Reformation definitely has had a HUGE impact on Orthodox and Roman theology. On the one hand, because of the extremely large Protestant population in North America and parts of western Europe, I think that the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches have highly had to give A LOT more attention and theological development to the concept of Salvation, along with where works play a part in our Salvation, to refute the Protestant notions of "faith alone salvation" and have also had to formulate a better defense for Sacramental theology because of the informal, laid back Evangelical-type view of things that many Protestant sects share. In a strange way, the Reformation was actually beneficial because it forced us to strengthen our theology in the long run and develop defenses for many of our doctrines that Protestants reject. If the Reformation never happened, our theology on these issues might not have been as well developed as it is now, and we might have been less prepared to be able to defend them.

If the Reformation never happened, I also think that the East would have had it very hard. That, since the Roman Catholics wouldn't have had to keep dealing with crazy Reformers, they would have focused more attention on the East, trying to claim our lands, convert us or both. The Reformers kept them busy. On a more negative note, I think that the average IQ of the world probably dropped as a result of the Reformation, mostly because of biblical literalism--which is prevalent in North America, since like 54% or something of the American population believes that the Earth is only 10,000 years old.



Forbidden epithet replaced with something more appropriate.  -PtA

[Luckster]

This is a question that, truly, only Orthodox can answer. Most secularists, intellectuals, Protestants, and left-leaning individuals would say the Reformation was a wonderful event for Western Civilization. On other hand other, traditional Catholics would say it was a hindrance to missionary development and the cause of unnecessary wars. Of course, they may concede that the Counter-Reformation was needed for "modernizing" Catholicism and justifying the growth of the modern education system.  We have to remember that the Renaissance brought us the Reformation which brought us the Enlightenment which brought us to the Modern Era, secularism, and later the Post-Modern Era. There's a strong correlation between the Rise of Protestantism, the fracturing of the Christianity, and the decline of social values. As Orthodox Christians, we are firmly on the sidelines on this issue as Orthodox countries were largely independent of these events until the modern era as Peter the Great wanted to make Russian more 'European' and the yoke of the Ottoman Empire fell.

For the sake of argument, let's continue with the notion that Reformation never happened. Luther became a lawyer and remained a pious Catholic (he and conservative Lutherans would say he always remained a pious Catholic). First, this would mean that the Counter-Reformation would never have happened. Catholic historians would challenge this, but it was the Reformation and the rise of intellectualism that greatly propelled the Counter-Reformation to occur, which largely addressed 1. Clerical abuses and 2. Laity education. It's also hard to determine if wars could have been avoided, since immediately before the Reformation, the Hundred Years War had ended, between two Catholic nations, and the wars of the 17th century were largely secular in nature. Likewise, it was largely Protestantism that founded the United States because of religious freedom - a notion largely unheard of in Western Europe for nearly a 1,000 years.

Catholic missionary work has been on the decline since the late 19th century. As such, Protestantism has stepped up to the plate in filling Rome's shoes. While we can focus on doctrinal differences, even the most traditional Orthodox can agree that it is more efficacious for non-Christians to hear the Gospel from Protestants than not at all.  The counter-point to this is that Protestants are largely encroaching on traditional Catholic or Orthodox lands, and, instead of working with local bishops, are aggressively working to "save souls" despite their already Christian adherence.

It's hard to say at this point what could have happened if the Reformation never occurred since it's been nearly 500 years. It's a worthwhile debate nonetheless.

[Peter J]

If the Reformation never happened, I also think that the East would have had it very hard. That, since the Roman Catholics wouldn't have had to keep dealing with crazy Reformers, they would have focused more attention on the East, trying to claim our lands, convert us or both.

Yes and no. By and large, no. All in all I think the Reformation resulted in Catholic-Orthodox relations worsening. (Not that they hadn't already been quite bad since Florence.)

[Luckster]

I'm surprised more people hadn't jumped on this topic. As I pointed out, this is a great topic for Orthodox Christians to discuss since we're, more or less, unaffected by the events until the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

[biro]

It's a question for Harry Turtledove! Seriously though, it would have saved the split between the RCC and the Lutherans and Anglicans, the first two major Protestant groups. Many fewer persecutions and deaths because there would have been no nationwide upheaval in several countries, with no reason for the people and government and people to change churches. So maybe the older ways of practice in the RCC would never have been phased out, they would have remained relatively closer to the Orthodox, the various churches would have been more able to mend the fences with each other and who knows what else. Maybe it would have been a better world in some ways. Just speculation.

[mike]

EO-RC border here would be 100-150 km west.

[Cyrillic]

I'm surprised more people hadn't jumped on this topic. As I pointed out, this is a great topic for Orthodox Christians to discuss since we're, more or less, unaffected by the events until the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

One of the results of the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation was uniatism.

[Luckster]

EO-RC border here would be 100-150 km west.

I'm surprised more people hadn't jumped on this topic. As I pointed out, this is a great topic for Orthodox Christians to discuss since we're, more or less, unaffected by the events until the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

One of the results of the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation was uniatism.

Why's that? I've always understood the events to be independent of the Counter-Reformation.

[Cyrillic]

No, the Reformation made the RCC go into berserk mode.

[tetepet]

If the reformation didn't happen then:
  Evil cults such as the free mason will not have been able to take advantage of of Churches and use them to spread evil and Spiritually harmful messages.
  And there wouldn't have been a WWII.
  And the Israelites will not have been separated into Israeli and Palestinians, beginning the age of Non peace between the to sects of Israelites.
So there would be much less evil.

[PeterTheAleut]

If the reformation didn't happen then:
  Evil cults such as the free mason will not have been able to take advantage of of Churches and use them to spread evil and Spiritually harmful messages.
  And there wouldn't have been a WWII.
  And the Israelites will not have been separated into Israeli and Palestinians, beginning the age of Non peace between the to sects of Israelites.
So there would be much less evil.

You're making a lot of extremely tenuous connections (not to say that they're totally without merit). I would like to hear how you come to these conclusions.

[Kerdy]

I tend to believe things would have just continued on the path they were already on and the Catholic Church would still be the ruling force in the west.  Outside this, I don’t think there would have been a lot of difference.  Well, maybe one…I think the east would still be, somewhat, in the stone age compared to the west.

[Peter J]

I'm surprised more people hadn't jumped on this topic. As I pointed out, this is a great topic for Orthodox Christians to discuss since we're, more or less, unaffected by the events until the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

One of the results of the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation was uniatism.

Why's that? I've always understood the events to be independent of the Counter-Reformation.

I too have heard people claim that the "unions" were independent of the Reformation & Counter-Reformation, but it find that extremely difficult to believe.

Nor, for that matter, do I think it's a coincidence that it wasn't until the mid/late 16th century that the First Council of the Lateran, the Second Council of the Lateran, the Third Council of the Lateran, the Fourth Council of the Lateran, the First Council of Lyon, the Second Council of Lyon, the Council of Vienne, and the Council of Constance were added to the Catholic list of ecumenical councils (effectively back-dating the schism to 1054).

[tetepet]

If the reformation didn't happen then:
  Evil cults such as the free mason will not have been able to take advantage of of Churches and use them to spread evil and Spiritually harmful messages.
  And there wouldn't have been a WWII.
  And the Israelites will not have been separated into Israeli and Palestinians, beginning the age of Non peace between the to sects of Israelites.
So there would be much less evil.

You're making a lot of extremely tenuous connections (not to say that they're totally without merit). I would like to hear how you come to these conclusions.

If you observe some protestant "churhces" what they preach are messages of evil that will lead  people to hell. And adding to it, where I am(Nigeria) some cults have set up "churches" just for that reason. And this is because the reformation gave rise to people to setting up churches when ever they wanted without the authority and supervision of The True Church.
 The system of government created by Germany for the Lutheran church was what lead to people like Hitler becoming leader.
  And I'm sure if the leadership in Britain was Catholic it wouldn't have propose separating the Israelites into Israelis and Palestinians, just because they wanted to create a state separate state for The Jews.

[PeterTheAleut]

If the reformation didn't happen then:
  Evil cults such as the free mason will not have been able to take advantage of of Churches and use them to spread evil and Spiritually harmful messages.
  And there wouldn't have been a WWII.
  And the Israelites will not have been separated into Israeli and Palestinians, beginning the age of Non peace between the to sects of Israelites.
So there would be much less evil.

You're making a lot of extremely tenuous connections (not to say that they're totally without merit). I would like to hear how you come to these conclusions.

If you observe some protestant "churhces" what they preach are messages of evil that will lead  people to hell. And adding to it, where I am(Nigeria) some cults have set up "churches" just for that reason. And this is because the reformation gave rise to people to setting up churches when ever they wanted without the authority and supervision of The True Church.
 The system of government created by Germany for the Lutheran church was what lead to people like Hitler becoming leader.
  And I'm sure if the leadership in Britain was Catholic it wouldn't have propose separating the Israelites into Israelis and Palestinians, just because they wanted to create a state separate state for The Jews.

I guess what I'm asking for is a logical explanation, which you're still not giving me. How specifically did the system of government created by Germany for the Lutheran Church lead to people like Hitler taking power? If Britain and Canada were to have remained Catholic, how would that have kept them from creating the state of Israel?

[biro]

If the Reformation never happened, all our arguments over Crusader Kings II would be much shorter.

[ialmisry]

I'm surprised more people hadn't jumped on this topic. As I pointed out, this is a great topic for Orthodox Christians to discuss since we're, more or less, unaffected by the events until the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

One of the results of the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation was uniatism.

Why's that? I've always understood the events to be independent of the Counter-Reformation.

I too have heard people claim that the "unions" were independent of the Reformation & Counter-Reformation, but it find that extremely difficult to believe.

Nor, for that matter, do I think it's a coincidence that it wasn't until the mid/late 16th century that the First Council of the Lateran, the Second Council of the Lateran, the Third Council of the Lateran, the Fourth Council of the Lateran, the First Council of Lyon, the Second Council of Lyon, the Council of Vienne, and the Council of Constance were added to the Catholic list of ecumenical councils (effectively back-dating the schism to 1054).

Another thing: if Zygmund Vasa hadn't gotten the throne of Poland at the cost of submission to the Vatican, and spent his time trying to get his Swedish Crown back from the Protestants, he might have been less insist on subduing his Orthodox subjects.

[Daedelus1138]

  The Reformation changed Roman Catholicism more than Orthodoxy.

  The Reformation was inevitable.  Many groups before Luther were trying to split away from the papal hierarchy and viewed the institutional church as corrupt and in need of reform.   Even Roman Catholics like Erasmus wanted a reform of the religion away from what they saw as an unwavering, superstitious authoritarianism, towards a more scientific/empiricist approach to Scriptures and faith.  Instead, the Counter-Reformation mostly gave Catholics more authoritarianism and suppression of scientific curiosity, while cleaning up some of the clerical abuses and lack of education of the laity.

[Cyrillic]

The Reformation changed Roman Catholicism more than Orthodoxy.

The Reformation was inevitable.  Many groups before Luther were trying to split away from the papal hierarchy and viewed the institutional church as corrupt and in need of reform.   Even Roman Catholics like Erasmus wanted a reform of the religion away from what they saw as an unwavering, superstitious authoritarianism, towards a more scientific/empiricist approach to Scriptures and faith.  Instead, the Counter-Reformation mostly gave Catholics more authoritarianism and suppression of scientific curiosity, while cleaning up some of the clerical abuses and lack of education of the laity.

I feel sorry for the communion that great men like Newman and Pusey belonged to.

[biro]

Might have prevented the Hundred Years War, saved countless thousands of lives and prevented one French nineteen-year-old in particular from getting cooked to a crisp. Which would have meant also that I'd have to have picked a different Confirmation name in '84, but so be it.

[Jason.Wike]

If the Reformation had never happened everyone would be Catholic by now and Catholicism would look a lot like Hinduism. Stuff like worshipping the circumcised foreskin of Jesus would be popular, indulgences would be stark raving crazy and people would still paint pictures of Mary protecting us all from the rambunctious, unapproachable, plague spreading little boy Jesus.

[choy]

Roman Catholic faith would be more Orthodox and reunion would be a great possibility without the need for radical change.  A lot of the development of dogma in the Roman Catholic Church came as a counter-reformation response.  Despite claims of Papal Supremacy in the late First Millennium until the Great Schism and afterward, Rome never dogmatized Papal Supremacy until the growth of Protestantism and the need to reiterate the role of the Pope in the Western faith.  The poorly thought out Marian dogmas would have never been dogmatized had there been no Protestant group trying to undermine the Theotokos' place in our faith.  And a lot of other things like Transubstantiation which aren't really that bad but should have never been codified, would have never been codified, again making it easier to dialogue between East and West.

[Kerdy]

Roman Catholic faith would be more Orthodox and reunion would be a great possibility without the need for radical change.  A lot of the development of dogma in the Roman Catholic Church came as a counter-reformation response.  Despite claims of Papal Supremacy in the late First Millennium until the Great Schism and afterward, Rome never dogmatized Papal Supremacy until the growth of Protestantism and the need to reiterate the role of the Pope in the Western faith.  The poorly thought out Marian dogmas would have never been dogmatized had there been no Protestant group trying to undermine the Theotokos' place in our faith.  And a lot of other things like Transubstantiation which aren't really that bad but should have never been codified, would have never been codified, again making it easier to dialogue between East and West.

Very good points! 

[zoarthegleaner]

For the Reformation not to have happened, there would have been no calendar Reformation.
In the West, Christmas would not have been locked into the solstice, which has crippled Western Christianity ability to disciple the nations.  Concepts of time would have evolved out  of the two dimensional reality of Western Christianity.  
     Consider Sunday as an example:  in the West the brightest reality to describe the Light of the Resurrection is the Sun.  Sunday is like the day of Resurrection in that it is emphasizes the brightest known object to everyone, i.e., the Sun.   However, there is no direct link between Sunday and the Resurrection in the linguistic transference of thought and knowledge, and  like it, the Western theological paradigm the concepts of the Transfiguration are also limited by that same construct of thought.  
The date of Christmas observance would have moved the Church away from being bound to paganism.  Christmas would have existed in the mind as separate and leading away from its association with Sun worship.  Modern Protestantism which has used the pagan connection in its apologetics against Roman Catholicism would not have a continual visible reference of criticism: pagans could have their solstice parties without commingling them with Christian worship. I suppose the Western dichotomy between science and faith would have been less schismatic.

Just for starters.

John Dunn

[Alpo]

If reformation never happened Finland could be a Catholic country with a Polish monarch.

[zoarthegleaner]

 It is difficult to say for certain, without Calvin and Knox, no Irish Protestabt Catholic Wars. 

[zoarthegleaner]

I disagree that Luther would have had to remain a lawyer, or a devout Catholic.   He mighta of become a Schwankfeldian.    As it turns out: the whole irony of the hammer and nail was, he meant it as a joke.

John Dunn

[Peter J]

If the Reformation had never happened everyone would be Catholic by now and Catholicism would look a lot like Hinduism. Stuff like worshipping the circumcised foreskin of Jesus would be popular, indulgences would be stark raving crazy and people would still paint pictures of Mary protecting us all from the rambunctious, unapproachable, plague spreading little boy Jesus.

Oh those Hindus with their plague spreading little boy Jesus (PSLBJ) ideas.

[PeterTheAleut]

I see a ton of speculation on this thread, but I find such conjecture devoid of any real substance. Can anyone here give a good, substantive statement of what would have happened had the Reformation never happened?

[Schultz]

I see a ton of speculation on this thread, but I find such conjecture devoid of any real substance. Can anyone here give a good, substantive statement of what would have happened had the Reformation never happened?

One could say that any statement on the topic would be, by definition, speculation and conjecture.

[PeterTheAleut]

I see a ton of speculation on this thread, but I find such conjecture devoid of any real substance. Can anyone here give a good, substantive statement of what would have happened had the Reformation never happened?

One could say that any statement on the topic would be, by definition, speculation and conjecture.

Very likely so, but I would like to at least see something based on facts and not on some opinions pulled out of mid air or other more unmentionable places.

[zoarthegleaner]

My comment about the Gregoran Calendar is substantive.

December 25, which is one of a few dates which has  Federal Significance.   It is Federall Identified as Christmas by the U.S. Goverment and has a unique distinction of being a day of Rest.


John Dunn

[PeterTheAleut]

My comment about the Gregoran Calendar is substantive.

December 25, which is one of a few dates which has  Federal Significance.   It is Federall Identified as Christmas by the U.S. Goverment and has a unique distinction of being a day of Rest.

So answer me this: How do you know that it was Christianity that co-opted a pagan festival and not the other way around?

[mike]

For the Reformation not to have happened, there would have been no calendar Reformation.
In the West, Christmas would not have been locked into the solstice, which has crippled Western Christianity ability to disciple the nations.  Concepts of time would have evolved out  of the two dimensional reality of Western Christianity.  
     Consider Sunday as an example:  in the West the brightest reality to describe the Light of the Resurrection is the Sun.  Sunday is like the day of Resurrection in that it is emphasizes the brightest known object to everyone, i.e., the Sun.   However, there is no direct link between Sunday and the Resurrection in the linguistic transference of thought and knowledge, and  like it, the Western theological paradigm the concepts of the Transfiguration are also limited by that same construct of thought.  
The date of Christmas observance would have moved the Church away from being bound to paganism.  Christmas would have existed in the mind as separate and leading away from its association with Sun worship.  Modern Protestantism which has used the pagan connection in its apologetics against Roman Catholicism would not have a continual visible reference of criticism: pagans could have their solstice parties without commingling them with Christian worship. I suppose the Western dichotomy between science and faith would have been less schismatic.

Wow. Just wow.

[Timon]

If the reformation had never happened, I probably wouldnt be an Orthodox Christian right now.

[Jason.Wike]

If the Reformation had never happened everyone would be Catholic by now and Catholicism would look a lot like Hinduism. Stuff like worshipping the circumcised foreskin of Jesus would be popular, indulgences would be stark raving crazy and people would still paint pictures of Mary protecting us all from the rambunctious, unapproachable, plague spreading little boy Jesus.

Oh those Hindus with their plague spreading little boy Jesus (PSLBJ) ideas.

Actually that was the midieval western thing. Can't find the examples of this exact one (seems like they're being deleted off the internet) but here is something of the same genre if you don't believe me. The arrows represent plague, famines, etc, and its God the Father in this instance Mary is using her mantle to protect us.

[Peter J]

If the Reformation had never happened everyone would be Catholic by now and Catholicism would look a lot like Hinduism. Stuff like worshipping the circumcised foreskin of Jesus would be popular, indulgences would be stark raving crazy and people would still paint pictures of Mary protecting us all from the rambunctious, unapproachable, plague spreading little boy Jesus.

Oh those Hindus with their plague spreading little boy Jesus (PSLBJ) ideas.

Actually that was the midieval western thing. Can't find the examples of this exact one (seems like they're being deleted off the internet) but here is something of the same genre if you don't believe me. The arrows represent plague, famines, etc, and its God the Father in this instance Mary is using her mantle to protect us.

Alright, I'll yield. The way your previous post was stated made it irresistible. (Fortunately I can't fire you since I'm not your boss.)

[jesusisthekey]

Since I love history, I believe the following would of happened:

1) Secularization of Europe would of never happened, but the secularization of America would have.
2) Martin Luther would of became fed up with the Catholic Church and either of become Eastern Orthodox or Muslim (I know he made claims against the Muslims, but I believe in said world he might of become one)
3) Evolution (a theory I do not adhere too) would of never came around
4) Television would have more religious stations depending on the area.
5) No world wars



I watched this movie based around Augustine yesterday, yes its a movie, but it still sold the idea that in the 2nd-3rd century many people were against the growing-majority of Christians. I think many non-Christians jumped on the wagon during the Protestant Reformation as protection for their anti-Christian views.

[Pericles]

If the Reformation never happened the religions, sects end schools of though that contributed to and were absorbed into the Reformation would have kept growing and flourished.

[Αριστοκλής]

I see a ton of speculation on this thread, but I find such conjecture devoid of any real substance. Can anyone here give a good, substantive statement of what would have happened had the Reformation never happened?

One could say that any statement on the topic would be, by definition, speculation and conjecture.

Correct. In my experience on Internet forums, both religious and historical, such "what if" topics get traction but no conclusions. That is no surprise, just boring.
Over on my History forum a topic such as "Who was the better general, Alexander or Napoleon?" would rage for pages, for no good reason. Similar here. Ho.. hum...

[Justin Kissel]

^Maybe there would be no good reason, but maybe people would learn something. How many threads on this forum (or any forum) reach no real consensus or conclusion? Yet there is stuff to be learned, even if not everyone comes to agree, or someone doesn't give a definitive solution/answer...

[Ebor]

Since I love history, I believe the following would of happened:

1) Secularization of Europe would of never happened, but the secularization of America would have.
2) Martin Luther would of became fed up with the Catholic Church and either of become Eastern Orthodox or Muslim (I know he made claims against the Muslims, but I believe in said world he might of become one)
3) Evolution (a theory I do not adhere too) would of never came around
4) Television would have more religious stations depending on the area.
5) No world wars

Could you please give some of what you would base these ideas on?  For example, no world wars.  There was still the "dividing" of the world between Spain and Portugal by the Bishop of Rome with the Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494, and I can conceive of empire based conflicts between those two as well as with China just off the top of my head.

Then why would the theory of Evolution never have been thought of? 

There are some SF/alternate history stories that I have read that consider some possible changes.  One was Pavane 1968 by Keith Roberts.  Then there are the "Lord Darcy" stories mostly by Randall Garrett.  There are some other interesting "Alternative History" books that I'll have to bring to mind.

[jesusisthekey]

Since I love history, I believe the following would of happened:

1) Secularization of Europe would of never happened, but the secularization of America would have.
2) Martin Luther would of became fed up with the Catholic Church and either of become Eastern Orthodox or Muslim (I know he made claims against the Muslims, but I believe in said world he might of become one)
3) Evolution (a theory I do not adhere too) would of never came around
4) Television would have more religious stations depending on the area.
5) No world wars

Could you please give some of what you would base these ideas on?  For example, no world wars.  There was still the "dividing" of the world between Spain and Portugal by the Bishop of Rome with the Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494, and I can conceive of empire based conflicts between those two as well as with China just off the top of my head.

Then why would the theory of Evolution never have been thought of? 

There are some SF/alternate history stories that I have read that consider some possible changes.  One was Pavane 1968 by Keith Roberts.  Then there are the "Lord Darcy" stories mostly by Randall Garrett.  There are some other interesting "Alternative History" books that I'll have to bring to mind.

I didn't really base this off of anything, I just guessed

[Ebor]

Might have prevented the Hundred Years War, saved countless thousands of lives and prevented one French nineteen-year-old in particular from getting cooked to a crisp. Which would have meant also that I'd have to have picked a different Confirmation name in '84, but so be it.

 
I'm confused.  How would no Reformation have led to no Hundred Year's War when that happened from 1337-1453 which is to say it was over decades before Luther was born?

[walter1234]

Might have prevented the Hundred Years War, saved countless thousands of lives and prevented one French nineteen-year-old in particular from getting cooked to a crisp. Which would have meant also that I'd have to have picked a different Confirmation name in '84, but so be it.

 
I'm confused.  How would no Reformation have led to no Hundred Year's War when that happened from 1337-1453 which is to say it was over decades before Luther was born?

Before Martin Luther,Ulrich Zwingli and John Calvin had already prepared to reformed the Catholic Church,but they did not form a new Church called Protestant Church.

As what I know, John Calvin is the former of Calvinism, penal substitution, etc.Ulrich Zwingli is the one who teach that the bread in Holy Communion is the simply the symbolic of the body of Christ. They are also the creator of new doctrine which protestant adopt and  played an important role on the reformation.

However, Ulrich Zwingli was borned A.D1484.John Calvin was born on A.D1509. I don't know why Reformation is started from A.D1337.

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