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Author Topic: The Solution to All of North America's Jurisdiction Problems!  (Read 1684 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 09, 2012, 07:09:29 AM »

Okay, feel free to shoot me down and explain why my solution is an absolute, heretical failure and why it would never be work, but at least give me some credit for trying and let me have my fun. Okay, here is my half-butted solution. Unite ALL of the Orthodox Church jurisdictions in North America into one single jurisdiction via by taking all of the Metropolitans from each of the jurisdictions and uniting them together into one single governing Holy Synod--like Russia had for a while there--then grant them autocephaly and viola, the Holy See of North America is born! Eventually, after the newly united jurisdictions become closer and more uniform with each other, we can eliminate the Holy Synod of North America and instead replace it with a single Patriarch.
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2012, 07:29:46 AM »

Okay, feel free to shoot me down and explain why my solution is an absolute, heretical failure and why it would never be work, but at least give me some credit for trying and let me have my fun. Okay, here is my half-butted solution. Unite ALL of the Orthodox Church jurisdictions in North America into one single jurisdiction via by taking all of the Metropolitans from each of the jurisdictions and uniting them together into one single governing Holy Synod--like Russia had for a while there--then grant them autocephaly and viola, the Holy See of North America is born! Eventually, after the newly united jurisdictions become closer and more uniform with each other, we can eliminate the Holy Synod of North America and instead replace it with a single Patriarch.

How exactly does this solve anything?
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2012, 07:32:50 AM »

I'd like to jump on this train



of thought.
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2012, 07:42:24 AM »

What makes you think Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania etc. wants to give up their parishes in North America?
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2012, 09:32:00 AM »

I do not support this idea at all.
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2012, 11:15:05 AM »

Okay, feel free to shoot me down and explain why my solution is an absolute, heretical failure and why it would never be work, but at least give me some credit for trying and let me have my fun. Okay, here is my half-butted solution. Unite ALL of the Orthodox Church jurisdictions in North America into one single jurisdiction via by taking all of the Metropolitans from each of the jurisdictions and uniting them together into one single governing Holy Synod--like Russia had for a while there--then grant them autocephaly and viola, the Holy See of North America is born! Eventually, after the newly united jurisdictions become closer and more uniform with each other, we can eliminate the Holy Synod of North America and instead replace it with a single Patriarch.

How exactly does this solve anything?
Yes, this doesn't address anything with the situation of the overlap of biscoprics.

Does one redraw and reassign episcopal lines before or after the union? How does the synod decide which bishop is assigned to which new diocese? How are the dioceses allocated?

What about the Western Rite? Some jurisdictions are strongly opposed.

Do they work to make liturgical practices uniform?

What about the monasteries and their oversight?

If you try to push jurisdictional unity before these kinds of things are addressed, it will fail before it starts.
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2012, 11:37:11 AM »

First of all, what about money?
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2012, 12:47:18 PM »

Of course, the simplest solution is for all to become Eastern Catholic.  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2012, 12:56:36 PM »

Of course, the simplest solution is for all to become Eastern Catholic.  Wink

Ruthenian? Melkite? Ukrainian Catholic?

I think you get my point.
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2012, 01:05:24 PM »

Of course, the simplest solution is for all to become Eastern Catholic.  Wink

Ruthenian? Melkite? Ukrainian Catholic?

I think you get my point.

Yeah, Orthodox ethnic stratification is so much better and has no problems at all.
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2012, 02:21:55 PM »

First of all, what about money?
And it will always come down to this.

Do the archdioceses that have more money to give to the unified church to have more voice in how it is used? Etc.
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2012, 02:25:06 PM »

Of course, the simplest solution is for all to become Eastern Catholic.  Wink

Ruthenian? Melkite? Ukrainian Catholic?

I think you get my point.

Yeah, Orthodox ethnic stratification is so much better and has no problems at all.

I'm not saying that, only that the Eastern Catholics face the same problems.
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2012, 03:22:07 PM »

First of all, what about money?
And it will always come down to this.

Do the archdioceses that have more money to give to the unified church to have more voice in how it is used? Etc.

How will the EP survive without GOA $?
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2012, 03:55:25 PM »

James in theory, it would be great.

In reality, I do not believe the bishops/metropolitans would ever give up their jurisdictions.   There would be way too many of them here....  Basically they'd have to retire/resign because they would not be needed.

For instance, there is an OCA church in Dallas.  Will the ROCOR, GOA, Ukrainian, Antiochian, bishops all throw up their hands (geographically very close together) and say "Okay, let's draw straws" and see who gets them?

I just could not see it happening.
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2012, 04:01:06 PM »

Just put all of the Churches under Moscow since it is the third Rome and thus the true Ecumenical Patriarchate and let his graciousness +Kiril+ figure out how he thinks it should be done.  Anyone who doesn't want to be under Moscow is free to start their own American Rakolniki synods.
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2012, 04:06:31 PM »

It wouldn't work that way.

The Assembly of Bishops have already started discussing various types of organization.

One of the types would be to have a ruling Archbishop or Metropolitan with several Archdiocesan Metropolitans/Archbishops (its odd because Greek & Slavic Churches use the titles differently) under them that form a Synod, and with several Diocesan Bishops under them who are part of regional synods.

Another type they discussed was to have a ruling Archbishop or Metropolitan, with many Archdiocesan/Diocesan Bishops that all form a single synod.

You have to have a single Primate, not several.

_____________________________

As for other so-called jurisdictions not giving up their power, well, they have to. They are going to be forced to give it up at the upcoming Pan-Orthodox Council under (probable) threat of being struck from the diptychs.

BTW, cynicism is not Orthodox, so don't go there.
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2012, 04:20:49 PM »

It wouldn't work that way.

The Assembly of Bishops have already started discussing various types of organization.

One of the types would be to have a ruling Archbishop or Metropolitan with several Archdiocesan Metropolitans/Archbishops (its odd because Greek & Slavic Churches use the titles differently) under them that form a Synod, and with several Diocesan Bishops under them who are part of regional synods.

Another type they discussed was to have a ruling Archbishop or Metropolitan, with many Archdiocesan/Diocesan Bishops that all form a single synod.

You have to have a single Primate, not several.

_____________________________

As for other so-called jurisdictions not giving up their power, well, they have to. They are going to be forced to give it up at the upcoming Pan-Orthodox Council under (probable) threat of being struck from the diptychs.

BTW, cynicism is not Orthodox, so don't go there.

probable threats are?

No way will they give up their power & churches to other bishops/metropolitans without getting payouts.  Mark my words.  I have 100% no doubt about this.
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2012, 05:00:24 PM »

James in theory, it would be great.

In reality, I do not believe the bishops/metropolitans would ever give up their jurisdictions.   There would be way too many of them here....  Basically they'd have to retire/resign because they would not be needed.

For instance, there is an OCA church in Dallas.  Will the ROCOR, GOA, Ukrainian, Antiochian, bishops all throw up their hands (geographically very close together) and say "Okay, let's draw straws" and see who gets them?

I just could not see it happening.
Perhaps the group can let all the Bishops live out their terms and then not fill certain position after they retire?  That would eventually cut down on the number of Bishops, although I do not know if they would be able to come to agreement as to which positions go unfilled. police
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2012, 05:14:18 PM »

Why not have one grand highest-authority Synod composed of the highest ranking Metropolitans/Primates/whatever term you use from each North American Jurisdiction govern the entire North American Orthodox community, and as for the average Bishops, say if two Bishops' jurisdictions overlap with each other, then we combine their jurisdiction into one territory and have the two or more Bishops BOTH govern it as a mini-Synod? That way, no one has to give up their power. Then eventually, after a few hundred years, when North America starts to become more uniform and united in its Orthodox identity, we can do away with the Synods and establish a single Patriarchate and single Bishops.
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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2012, 06:05:52 PM »

Why not have one grand highest-authority Synod composed of the highest ranking Metropolitans/Primates/whatever term you use from each North American Jurisdiction govern the entire North American Orthodox community, and as for the average Bishops, say if two Bishops' jurisdictions overlap with each other, then we combine their jurisdiction into one territory and have the two or more Bishops BOTH govern it as a mini-Synod?
There are a few places where the territory of seven bishops overlap.

The other problem is that idea completely reinvents the role of the bishop.

Despite some of the ecclesial politics we've seen at play here in North America in recent years, a bishop is a bishop, not a member of a committee.
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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2012, 06:08:28 PM »

There are a few places where the territory of seven bishops overlap.

Then why not combine the territory and form a mini-Synod composed of the seven Bishops?

I know that a Synod is far from perfect, and very western, but it is nothing new to the Orthodox Church. We accepted the Russian Synod, so why can't we accept Synods in North America? At least until we become more uniform and united, where we can then return back to single Bishops and replace the grand Synod with a single Patriarch?
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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2012, 06:10:55 PM »

Of course, the simplest solution is for all to become Eastern Catholic.  Wink

Ruthenian? Melkite? Ukrainian Catholic?

I think you get my point.

Yeah, Orthodox ethnic stratification is so much better and has no problems at all.

I'm not saying that, only that the Eastern Catholics face the same problems.

Only it isn't a problem for them, for a variety of reasons.
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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2012, 06:15:39 PM »

Of course, the simplest solution is for all to become Eastern Catholic.  Wink

Ruthenian? Melkite? Ukrainian Catholic?

I think you get my point.

I think you missed mine.
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« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2012, 06:26:40 PM »

There are a few places where the territory of seven bishops overlap.

Then why not combine the territory and form a mini-Synod composed of the seven Bishops?

I know that a Synod is far from perfect, and very western, but it is nothing new to the Orthodox Church. We accepted the Russian Synod, so why can't we accept Synods in North America? At least until we become more uniform and united, where we can then return back to single Bishops and replace the grand Synod with a single Patriarch?
So your suggestion to correct an uncanonical situation is to impose another one in hopes that in a few hundred years it irons out?

I like your intentions, but this sounds like more of a cluster than what we currently have.

As far as a grand group of bishops that is supposed to work all the kinks out of the system, I think that's the general idea behind the episcopal assembly.
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« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2012, 08:16:45 PM »

There are a few places where the territory of seven bishops overlap.

Then why not combine the territory and form a mini-Synod composed of the seven Bishops?

I know that a Synod is far from perfect, and very western, but it is nothing new to the Orthodox Church. We accepted the Russian Synod, so why can't we accept Synods in North America? At least until we become more uniform and united, where we can then return back to single Bishops and replace the grand Synod with a single Patriarch?

The churches that are in communion together, would have other issues to sort out.  Calendar for example...  The bishops would strongly disagree with each other on some of these issues.
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2012, 08:21:15 PM »

Why not have one grand highest-authority Synod composed of the highest ranking Metropolitans/Primates/whatever term you use from each North American Jurisdiction govern the entire North American Orthodox community, and as for the average Bishops, say if two Bishops' jurisdictions overlap with each other, then we combine their jurisdiction into one territory and have the two or more Bishops BOTH govern it as a mini-Synod? That way, no one has to give up their power. Then eventually, after a few hundred years, when North America starts to become more uniform and united in its Orthodox identity, we can do away with the Synods and establish a single Patriarchate and single Bishops.

Our canons do not allow for multiple Bishops in a diocese. Whatever solution is found, it has to be canonical.
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2012, 08:30:18 PM »

Just put all of the Churches under Moscow since it is the third Rome and thus the true Ecumenical Patriarchate and let his graciousness +Kiril+ figure out how he thinks it should be done.  Anyone who doesn't want to be under Moscow is free to start their own American Rakolniki synods.

I never understood why you keep posting this PR disaster. I keep thinking there must be some reality TV angle that you are thinking about, but it still makes no sense to me. What we will see with a certain degree of certainty is  terms like "billionaire KGB operative "Mikhailov"' and CIA darling Konstantin Preobrazhensky will surely have access to the major news media, as he always does, to back up any anti-American conspiracy theory.

Money talks and Ruskie's oil ain't got any footing on our soil. The geothermal. algal-diesel and wind energy utility conglomerates here are lining up for his HAH Bartholomew to have an addendum to his name if the chance comes up: Archbishop of Constantinople and New York. Baghdad by the Bay, of course, goes to the Patriarch of Antioch (a cynical sop to sentimental San Franciscans), but it is only fitting. Whether the accumulate resources goes to Citizens United or American Crossroads is still up for grabs. That is a matter of diplomatically disentangling the rich imperialist Greeks that help fund these organization.

Your thoughts on this matter appreciated.

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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2012, 08:54:17 PM »

Our canons do not allow for multiple Bishops in a diocese. Whatever solution is found, it has to be canonical.

Really? I thought they do not allow multiple dioceses in area.
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2012, 10:56:38 PM »

Our canons do not allow for multiple Bishops in a diocese. Whatever solution is found, it has to be canonical.

Really? I thought they do not allow multiple dioceses in area.

I should have clarified. You can't have multiple bishops of the same authority in a single diocese. When I was in Greece, I think we had a local Bishop who was an auxiliary of the main Bishop the next town over.
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« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2012, 07:33:50 AM »

Of course, the simplest solution is for all to become Eastern Catholic.  Wink

Ruthenian? Melkite? Ukrainian Catholic?

I think you get my point.

I think you missed mine.
The "Eastern Catholics" have three Patriarchs of Antioch and two patriarchs (but not Popes) of Alexandria.  Until Vatican II, the Latins in addition had a "patriarch" of their own in each, in addition to the above.

The "supreme authority of the church" that you allude to can't decide whether its diocese in Mukachevo/Zakarpatia is Ruthenian "sui juris" or Ukrainian "sui juris," or isn't telling.  Its Ruthenians have Slovakia with the Slovak "sui juris," with Canada answering to Slovakia but America having its own Metropolia. That's in addition to the Latin ordinaries in Ukraine, Slovakia, Canada, US etc. and the occasion Armenian "sui juris" etc. in the same place.

So, what was your point again?
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« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2012, 07:33:50 AM »

First of all, what about money?
And it will always come down to this.

Do the archdioceses that have more money to give to the unified church to have more voice in how it is used? Etc.

How will the EP survive without GOA $?
Why wouldn't he get it?

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« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2012, 10:27:42 AM »

What befuddles me is why the bishops can't simply redistrict the continent, and most bishops around accordingly. There are plenty of churches that are either cathedral status already or can be elevated to such and move in a new bishop. Don't get me wrong, we have a surplus of bishops, but why should one bishop oversee 1/3 (land mass wise) of the country by himself? (I'm referring to OCA's Diocese of the West which spans from the Pacific to the Great Plains.)
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« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2012, 11:02:29 AM »

Of course, the simplest solution is for all to become Eastern Catholic.  Wink

Ruthenian? Melkite? Ukrainian Catholic?

I think you get my point.

Yeah, Orthodox ethnic stratification is so much better and has no problems at all.

I'm not saying that, only that the Eastern Catholics face the same problems.

Only it isn't a problem for them, for a variety of reasons.

James - it is an issue - try telling Ukrainian or Ruthenian Greek Catholics that they would have to accept a Melkite priest who would start implementing Arabic customs, not serve in the Slavic fashion and so on or vice-versa..... They have their own set of problems for sure, but ethnic diversity issues in North America is not one unfamiliar to them.
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« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2012, 11:09:36 AM »

The problem is complex for a variety of reasons. While the 'canons' guide us, we are not like our Roman friends who have codified them and recodified them to the point where they seek to justify any action by the 'letter of the law.' This is a blessing and a curse in a sense in terms of trying to develop a unified structure in North America.

I personally think that the Legal Affairs subcommittee of the EA rather than liturgical practices or even Diocesan borders is likely to hold the lynch pin to the process. The non-canonical mode of initial organization of dioceses and parishes in the New World (yes - due in part to the impact of both the Russian Revolution and the aftermath of the collapse of the Ottomans and the reorganization of geopolitical borders in Europe and Arabia at the end of the first war coupled with rapid immigration from Orthodox (and Greek Catholic) lands in the fifty years from 1880 through 1930) has led to a most confusing and contradictory mess of diocesan structures, parish structures, property titles and so on. It will require a great deal of will and education to sort through these matters and our prayers should be with those charged with membership on that particular committee.

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« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2012, 11:47:32 AM »

Just put all of the Churches under Moscow since it is the third Rome and thus the true Ecumenical Patriarchate and let his graciousness +Kiril+ figure out how he thinks it should be done.  Anyone who doesn't want to be under Moscow is free to start their own American Rakolniki synods.

I never understood why you keep posting this PR disaster. I keep thinking there must be some reality TV angle that you are thinking about, but it still makes no sense to me. What we will see with a certain degree of certainty is  terms like "billionaire KGB operative "Mikhailov"' and CIA darling Konstantin Preobrazhensky will surely have access to the major news media, as he always does, to back up any anti-American conspiracy theory.

Money talks and Ruskie's oil ain't got any footing on our soil. The geothermal. algal-diesel and wind energy utility conglomerates here are lining up for his HAH Bartholomew to have an addendum to his name if the chance comes up: Archbishop of Constantinople and New York. Baghdad by the Bay, of course, goes to the Patriarch of Antioch (a cynical sop to sentimental San Franciscans), but it is only fitting. Whether the accumulate resources goes to Citizens United or American Crossroads is still up for grabs. That is a matter of diplomatically disentangling the rich imperialist Greeks that help fund these organization.

Your thoughts on this matter appreciated.



Perhaps we could have three jurisdictions then?  Let the hippie-dox go to the Green Patriarch (Green - it's not just for Pentecost anymore!), give Antioch Sodom-by-the-Bay (and hopefully he can straighten (heh) them out) as he will need a new Patriarchal Throne after the US is able to ensure that Christians can no longer live in Syria, and then let the neo-Soviets have the "Red States".  Fitting.

As for the reality show:

"On ABC we have the new hit reality show "Bosphorus Shore" where six Patriarchs must share a frat house in Chicago.  Things are going well for the Patriarchs when they find that the black sheep of the family is moving in - the Patriarch of Rome."

Constantinople:  "Look man, we've been living together fine til he showed up.  He's trying to take over the place, insisting on his "primacy"."

Jerusalem:  "He's just trying to pick a fight, cool down Antioch.  And you, scion of Peter, quit talking trash!" 
Pope:  "What?!?  All I said was "and the son" and he starts gettin' all agro on me?  I wasn't even talking about the creed, just those two people I saw going to get ice cream!" 
Belgrade:  "Ice cream!  It's the middle of March!  Don't you guys know how to fast!"

Pope:  "I know there's been some bad blood between us in the past.  But I am just trying to get along!"
Constantinople:  "POPE!  Why is it that every time we play Age of Empire II together, you ally with me then burn my village!"

Alexandria:  "I'm not sure how long I can do this.  I'm just ready to quit.  I really needed some companionship so I bought a kitten.  It started ripping up the couch but before I could do anything Moscow just screams "There'll be no pussy riots in my house" and threw Mr. Miaphysiteschnookums out the window!"
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« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2012, 11:51:30 AM »

Just put all of the Churches under Moscow since it is the third Rome and thus the true Ecumenical Patriarchate and let his graciousness +Kiril+ figure out how he thinks it should be done.  Anyone who doesn't want to be under Moscow is free to start their own American Rakolniki synods.

I never understood why you keep posting this PR disaster. I keep thinking there must be some reality TV angle that you are thinking about, but it still makes no sense to me. What we will see with a certain degree of certainty is  terms like "billionaire KGB operative "Mikhailov"' and CIA darling Konstantin Preobrazhensky will surely have access to the major news media, as he always does, to back up any anti-American conspiracy theory.

Money talks and Ruskie's oil ain't got any footing on our soil. The geothermal. algal-diesel and wind energy utility conglomerates here are lining up for his HAH Bartholomew to have an addendum to his name if the chance comes up: Archbishop of Constantinople and New York. Baghdad by the Bay, of course, goes to the Patriarch of Antioch (a cynical sop to sentimental San Franciscans), but it is only fitting. Whether the accumulate resources goes to Citizens United or American Crossroads is still up for grabs. That is a matter of diplomatically disentangling the rich imperialist Greeks that help fund these organization.

Your thoughts on this matter appreciated.



Perhaps we could have three jurisdictions then?  Let the hippie-dox go to the Green Patriarch (Green - it's not just for Pentecost anymore!), give Antioch Sodom-by-the-Bay (and hopefully he can straighten (heh) them out) as he will need a new Patriarchal Throne after the US is able to ensure that Christians can no longer live in Syria, and then let the neo-Soviets have the "Red States".  Fitting.

As for the reality show:

"On ABC we have the new hit reality show "Bosphorus Shore" where six Patriarchs must share a frat house in Chicago.  Things are going well for the Patriarchs when they find that the black sheep of the family is moving in - the Patriarch of Rome."

Constantinople:  "Look man, we've been living together fine til he showed up.  He's trying to take over the place, insisting on his "primacy"."

Jerusalem:  "He's just trying to pick a fight, cool down Antioch.  And you, scion of Peter, quit talking trash!" 
Pope:  "What?!?  All I said was "and the son" and he starts gettin' all agro on me?  I wasn't even talking about the creed, just those two people I saw going to get ice cream!" 
Belgrade:  "Ice cream!  It's the middle of March!  Don't you guys know how to fast!"

Pope:  "I know there's been some bad blood between us in the past.  But I am just trying to get along!"
Constantinople:  "POPE!  Why is it that every time we play Age of Empire II together, you ally with me then burn my village!"

Alexandria:  "I'm not sure how long I can do this.  I'm just ready to quit.  I really needed some companionship so I bought a kitten.  It started ripping up the couch but before I could do anything Moscow just screams "There'll be no pussy riots in my house" and threw Mr. Miaphysiteschnookums out the window!"

Post of All Time as to why there can never be any Orthodox unity with attitudes like the above.
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« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2012, 01:54:49 AM »

Just put all of the Churches under Moscow since it is the third Rome and thus the true Ecumenical Patriarchate and let his graciousness +Kiril+ figure out how he thinks it should be done.  Anyone who doesn't want to be under Moscow is free to start their own American Rakolniki synods.

I never understood why you keep posting this PR disaster. I keep thinking there must be some reality TV angle that you are thinking about, but it still makes no sense to me. What we will see with a certain degree of certainty is  terms like "billionaire KGB operative "Mikhailov"' and CIA darling Konstantin Preobrazhensky will surely have access to the major news media, as he always does, to back up any anti-American conspiracy theory.

Money talks and Ruskie's oil ain't got any footing on our soil. The geothermal. algal-diesel and wind energy utility conglomerates here are lining up for his HAH Bartholomew to have an addendum to his name if the chance comes up: Archbishop of Constantinople and New York. Baghdad by the Bay, of course, goes to the Patriarch of Antioch (a cynical sop to sentimental San Franciscans), but it is only fitting. Whether the accumulate resources goes to Citizens United or American Crossroads is still up for grabs. That is a matter of diplomatically disentangling the rich imperialist Greeks that help fund these organization.

Your thoughts on this matter appreciated.



Perhaps we could have three jurisdictions then?  Let the hippie-dox go to the Green Patriarch (Green - it's not just for Pentecost anymore!), give Antioch Sodom-by-the-Bay (and hopefully he can straighten (heh) them out) as he will need a new Patriarchal Throne after the US is able to ensure that Christians can no longer live in Syria, and then let the neo-Soviets have the "Red States".  Fitting.

Never heard of hippie-dox and I have never seen one, must be an OCA thing. The term is Baghdad-by-the-bay. Your word play is a knee-jerk response and boring. Perhaps others may come to your defense.

I did like this:
Quote
As for the reality show:

"On ABC we have the new hit reality show "Bosphorus Shore" where six Patriarchs must share a frat house in Chicago.  Things are going well for the Patriarchs when they find that the black sheep of the family is moving in - the Patriarch of Rome."

Constantinople:  "Look man, we've been living together fine til he showed up.  He's trying to take over the place, insisting on his "primacy"."

Jerusalem:  "He's just trying to pick a fight, cool down Antioch.  And you, scion of Peter, quit talking trash!" 
Pope:  "What?!?  All I said was "and the son" and he starts gettin' all agro on me?  I wasn't even talking about the creed, just those two people I saw going to get ice cream!" 
Belgrade:  "Ice cream!  It's the middle of March!  Don't you guys know how to fast!"

Pope:  "I know there's been some bad blood between us in the past.  But I am just trying to get along!"
Constantinople:  "POPE!  Why is it that every time we play Age of Empire II together, you ally with me then burn my village!"

Alexandria:  "I'm not sure how long I can do this.  I'm just ready to quit.  I really needed some companionship so I bought a kitten.  It started ripping up the couch but before I could do anything Moscow just screams "There'll be no pussy riots in my house" and threw Mr. Miaphysiteschnookums out the window!"

I think this would be good for season two or three. KKE house has to be loaded with U. Chicago budding economists. The Panhellenic aspect is brilliant. My thought was to start out more upscale, with a women-oriented channel (like Lifetime or Oxygen) and let it disintegrate from there until it reaches the Spike channel. I was thinking Geneva as a location, with the title Chambesy House. I certainly hope Chopard would be a sponsor with the Patriarch of Jerusalem being bilked on watch deals on the streets of the old quarter. The amount of perfume fragrances that come from Geneva is also a plus (Fermenish: http://www.osmoz.com/). There has got to be romance in this first season. I am thinking about Patriarchal nephews at a seminary frantically competing for a few potential wives before being ordained (yes I am stealing from an Onion Dome story). The KGB, CIA and the Muslim Brotherhood all get involved. Mayhem rules.

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« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2012, 04:07:21 AM »

There are 50 US States, 10 Canadian Provinces and 3 Canadian Territories.  Give each bishop one, are there more than 63 bishops in North America?

Now, who wants Nunavut?  Its a huge territory Wink
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« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2012, 10:50:55 AM »

There are 50 US States, 10 Canadian Provinces and 3 Canadian Territories.  Give each bishop one, are there more than 63 bishops in North America?

Now, who wants Nunavut?  Its a huge territory Wink

You left out the American Virgin Islands - now that's a see that some would fight over!
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« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2012, 11:35:25 AM »

There are 50 US States, 10 Canadian Provinces and 3 Canadian Territories.  Give each bishop one, are there more than 63 bishops in North America?

Now, who wants Nunavut?  Its a huge territory Wink

You left out the American Virgin Islands - now that's a see that some would fight over!

Come the Vamratocracy, they will be renames the Bogoroditsa and Ever Virgin Mary Islands and at least one of them will be turned into a giant convent in honour of the Theotokos.  As such it will have whatever we use for an Abbess instead of a Bishop.
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« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2012, 11:53:56 AM »

There are 50 US States, 10 Canadian Provinces and 3 Canadian Territories.  Give each bishop one, are there more than 63 bishops in North America?

Now, who wants Nunavut?  Its a huge territory Wink

You left out the American Virgin Islands - now that's a see that some would fight over!

Come the Vamratocracy, they will be renames the Bogoroditsa and Ever Virgin Mary Islands and at least one of them will be turned into a giant convent in honour of the Theotokos.  As such it will have whatever we use for an Abbess instead of a Bishop.

 Grin
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« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2012, 12:11:02 PM »

Okay, feel free to shoot me down and explain why my solution is an absolute, heretical failure and why it would never be work, but at least give me some credit for trying and let me have my fun. Okay, here is my half-butted solution. Unite ALL of the Orthodox Church jurisdictions in North America into one single jurisdiction via by taking all of the Metropolitans from each of the jurisdictions and uniting them together into one single governing Holy Synod--like Russia had for a while there--then grant them autocephaly and viola, the Holy See of North America is born! Eventually, after the newly united jurisdictions become closer and more uniform with each other, we can eliminate the Holy Synod of North America and instead replace it with a single Patriarch.

Let me give my thoughts.  This solution and others offered after yours assumes that there is some kind of top level authority that can impose its will on the Orthodox Church or at least on the Orthodox Church here in America. That is not how it works.  The Orthodox Church is made up of people who want to be in the community of the Body of Christ in a local parish under the guidance and love of their Bishop. That’s it, as I see it. The rest is extra.

It is the Holy Tradition of the Church that the Bishop is not in isolation but in a brotherhood with all other Bishops of the surrounding areas, (ideally neighboring but not overlapping dioceses). This group of Bishops has a “first among equals” that is not over them but guides them. This “first among equals” also represents the Orthodox Church in this area, to the other Orthodox Churches of other areas. Historically, some Churches and their Primates, have a higher level of respect then others, but not any rights to interfere with other Churches.

The Church is guided by its people at the local parish level.  The Bishop of the Church guides the people. It is my belief that the people would consult with their Bishop if they think that the Bishops of their area should be organized differently than they are now.   I don’t see an outcry for such change. I do see a real need for it, but it does not look like the Church, (the people in the community of the Body of Christ in a local parish under the guidance and love of their Bishop) see the need for it.

The situation can only change when the Church wants it to change, a forced change will just create more splits.  The way I see that it could change is if the local parishes of different "Jurisdictions" do more together often enough that it becomes obvious to all that we are one. As long as the local parishes of different "Jurisdictions" of an area believe they are different, we will not as a Church see the need for change.
(One can see right on this website the the different "Jurisdictions" and different Orthodox Churches.)

Just my thoughts, I could be wrong.
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« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2012, 12:23:52 PM »

Okay, feel free to shoot me down and explain why my solution is an absolute, heretical failure and why it would never be work, but at least give me some credit for trying and let me have my fun. Okay, here is my half-butted solution. Unite ALL of the Orthodox Church jurisdictions in North America into one single jurisdiction via by taking all of the Metropolitans from each of the jurisdictions and uniting them together into one single governing Holy Synod--like Russia had for a while there--then grant them autocephaly and viola, the Holy See of North America is born! Eventually, after the newly united jurisdictions become closer and more uniform with each other, we can eliminate the Holy Synod of North America and instead replace it with a single Patriarch.

Let me give my thoughts.  This solution and others offered after yours assumes that there is some kind of top level authority that can impose its will on the Orthodox Church or at least on the Orthodox Church here in America. That is not how it works.  The Orthodox Church is made up of people who want to be in the community of the Body of Christ in a local parish under the guidance and love of their Bishop. That’s it, as I see it. The rest is extra.

It is the Holy Tradition of the Church that the Bishop is not in isolation but in a brotherhood with all other Bishops of the surrounding areas, (ideally neighboring but not overlapping dioceses). This group of Bishops has a “first among equals” that is not over them but guides them. This “first among equals” also represents the Orthodox Church in this area, to the other Orthodox Churches of other areas. Historically, some Churches and their Primates, have a higher level of respect then others, but not any rights to interfere with other Churches.

The Church is guided by its people at the local parish level.  The Bishop of the Church guides the people. It is my belief that the people would consult with their Bishop if they think that the Bishops of their area should be organized differently than they are now.   I don’t see an outcry for such change. I do see a real need for it, but it does not look like the Church, (the people in the community of the Body of Christ in a local parish under the guidance and love of their Bishop) see the need for it.

The situation can only change when the Church wants it to change, a forced change will just create more splits.  The way I see that it could change is if the local parishes of different "Jurisdictions" do more together often enough that it becomes obvious to all that we are one. As long as the local parishes of different "Jurisdictions" of an area believe they are different, we will not as a Church see the need for change.
(One can see right on this website the the different "Jurisdictions" and different Orthodox Churches.)

Just my thoughts, I could be wrong.


But - you surely are not arguing that if we had jurisdictional unity we all would serve, pray and think in lockstep? Certainly the forty years of experience within the OCA experiment has not proven that to be the case. Travelling across the country from OCA parish to OCA parish, to diocese to diocese there are palpable differences in things ranging from pews, to chant to parish participation in services, the length of services and so on and so forth. What we need to understand is that within historical Orthodoxy the little things we do in different manners based upon culture, history, geography or whatever do not transcend the dogmatic truth possessed by the Church. American culture is not a 'unified' thing at all so how would we expect our Church to be culturally unified even within a unified, orderly structure?
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« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2012, 12:36:53 PM »

I have offered to go to the local home supply store and get stuff to make signs. They'll say 'Orthodox Church of the U.S.A., services in...' And under that would be liturgy languages and schedules. And that's it! All you do after that is elect a citywide bishop, and the others in the same town or region become titular bishops.

I just saved you the cost of an Ecumenical Council. You're welcome.  Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2012, 12:55:01 PM »

There are 50 US States, 10 Canadian Provinces and 3 Canadian Territories.  Give each bishop one, are there more than 63 bishops in North America?

Now, who wants Nunavut?  Its a huge territory Wink

You left out the American Virgin Islands - now that's a see that some would fight over!

Come the Vamratocracy, they will be renames the Bogoroditsa and Ever Virgin Mary Islands and at least one of them will be turned into a giant convent in honour of the Theotokos.  As such it will have whatever we use for an Abbess instead of a Bishop.
I remember being in Bermuda and sighing how, among all the various churches on the island that the inhabitants pride themselves on, not a one is Orthodox.
St. Peter's in St. George would make an excellent WRO parish.


And yes, we have enough bishops to cover everyone in North America, with no overlap.
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