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Author Topic: The Solution to All of North America's Jurisdiction Problems!  (Read 1335 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2012, 12:55:01 PM »

Okay, feel free to shoot me down and explain why my solution is an absolute, heretical failure and why it would never be work, but at least give me some credit for trying and let me have my fun. Okay, here is my half-butted solution. Unite ALL of the Orthodox Church jurisdictions in North America into one single jurisdiction via by taking all of the Metropolitans from each of the jurisdictions and uniting them together into one single governing Holy Synod--like Russia had for a while there--then grant them autocephaly and viola, the Holy See of North America is born! Eventually, after the newly united jurisdictions become closer and more uniform with each other, we can eliminate the Holy Synod of North America and instead replace it with a single Patriarch.

Let me give my thoughts.  This solution and others offered after yours assumes that there is some kind of top level authority that can impose its will on the Orthodox Church or at least on the Orthodox Church here in America. That is not how it works.  The Orthodox Church is made up of people who want to be in the community of the Body of Christ in a local parish under the guidance and love of their Bishop. That’s it, as I see it. The rest is extra.

It is the Holy Tradition of the Church that the Bishop is not in isolation but in a brotherhood with all other Bishops of the surrounding areas, (ideally neighboring but not overlapping dioceses). This group of Bishops has a “first among equals” that is not over them but guides them. This “first among equals” also represents the Orthodox Church in this area, to the other Orthodox Churches of other areas. Historically, some Churches and their Primates, have a higher level of respect then others, but not any rights to interfere with other Churches.

The Church is guided by its people at the local parish level.  The Bishop of the Church guides the people. It is my belief that the people would consult with their Bishop if they think that the Bishops of their area should be organized differently than they are now.   I don’t see an outcry for such change. I do see a real need for it, but it does not look like the Church, (the people in the community of the Body of Christ in a local parish under the guidance and love of their Bishop) see the need for it.

The situation can only change when the Church wants it to change, a forced change will just create more splits.  The way I see that it could change is if the local parishes of different "Jurisdictions" do more together often enough that it becomes obvious to all that we are one. As long as the local parishes of different "Jurisdictions" of an area believe they are different, we will not as a Church see the need for change.
(One can see right on this website the the different "Jurisdictions" and different Orthodox Churches.)

Just my thoughts, I could be wrong.

Well, all of us except the OCA (unless it has officially signed on by participating and thereby bound itself to it) are bound to find a canonical solution to the problem, as everyone but the OCA has signed themselves onto doing just that in the Chambesy documents.  And since all the bishops have followed up and committed themselves to it in North America (I won't speak for the other areas), we are all-all of us in canonical communion with the Orthodox bishops of the diptychs of the Catholic Church-at present officially on board with changing the present organization.

The Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America meeting in a Synod would be a good step in the right direction.
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AWR
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« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2012, 01:27:25 PM »

But - you surely are not arguing that if we had jurisdictional unity we all would serve, pray and think in lockstep? Certainly the forty years of experience within the OCA experiment has not proven that to be the case. Travelling across the country from OCA parish to OCA parish, to diocese to diocese there are palpable differences in things ranging from pews, to chant to parish participation in services, the length of services and so on and so forth. What we need to understand is that within historical Orthodoxy the little things we do in different manners based upon culture, history, geography or whatever do not transcend the dogmatic truth possessed by the Church. American culture is not a 'unified' thing at all so how would we expect our Church to be culturally unified even within a unified, orderly structure?

No, I am saying it the other way around.  We don't have "jurisdictional unity" because people do not see it as that important to unite "jurisdictions". They care about their own parish and their own dioceses.  I'm saying it will be this way until it is obvious to everyone, that it should not be this way.  People do see Orthodox Christian Unity, they don't see a problem. The problem was once that some "jurisdictions" would not be in communion with some other "jurisdictions", that is not as bad a problem as it once was.

Also, "Jurisdictions" came to be because it was what people wanted at the time, most likely because it was the best think to do at the time. A local parish needed a priest so they found a bishop that would give them one.
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AWR
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« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2012, 01:48:50 PM »

Well, all of us except the OCA (unless it has officially signed on by participating and thereby bound itself to it) are bound to find a canonical solution to the problem, as everyone but the OCA has signed themselves onto doing just that in the Chambesy documents.  And since all the bishops have followed up and committed themselves to it in North America (I won't speak for the other areas), we are all-all of us in canonical communion with the Orthodox bishops of the diptychs of the Catholic Church-at present officially on board with changing the present organization.

The Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America meeting in a Synod would be a good step in the right direction.

I agree the problems should be solved, but this Topic was "The Solution to All of North America's Jurisdiction Problems!" and my posts were why I do not think that the solution will work.  And that is because the Orthodox Church is a collection of local parishes. I was fooled is the Ligonier days, I am no as naive now. Unless parish priests and bishops let the people in on the fact that is important, it won't be.  My point is that a council of Bishops can't solve the problem if it is not what the people want.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2012, 02:07:59 PM »

Well, all of us except the OCA (unless it has officially signed on by participating and thereby bound itself to it) are bound to find a canonical solution to the problem, as everyone but the OCA has signed themselves onto doing just that in the Chambesy documents.  And since all the bishops have followed up and committed themselves to it in North America (I won't speak for the other areas), we are all-all of us in canonical communion with the Orthodox bishops of the diptychs of the Catholic Church-at present officially on board with changing the present organization.

The Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America meeting in a Synod would be a good step in the right direction.

I agree the problems should be solved, but this Topic was "The Solution to All of North America's Jurisdiction Problems!" and my posts were why I do not think that the solution will work.  And that is because the Orthodox Church is a collection of local parishes. I was fooled is the Ligonier days, I am no as naive now. Unless parish priests and bishops let the people in on the fact that is important, it won't be.  My point is that a council of Bishops can't solve the problem if it is not what the people want.
That is why it is called "leadership."
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2012, 07:12:24 PM »

Here is a statement of purpose from the webpage of the North American Assembly: "The purpose of the Assembly of Bishops of North and Central America is to preserve and contribute to the unity of the Orthodox Church by helping to further her spiritual, theological, ecclesiological, canonical, educational, missionary and philanthropic aims. To accomplish this, the Assembly has as its goals: i) the promotion and accomplishment of Church unity in North and Central America; ii) the strengthening of the common pastoral ministry to all the Orthodox faithful of this region; and iii) a common witness by the Church to all those outside her. In addition, the Assembly has as an express goal iv) the organization of the Church in North and Central America in accordance with the ecclesiological and the canonical tradition of the Orthodox Church." http://assemblyofbishops.org/about/assembly

It seems to me that the paths outlined in points i, ii and iii are designed to lead up to point iv. In theory, at least, the process is consistent with what both Isa and AWR have posited.  The committees established by the Assembly are extensive and comprised of Bishops, clergy and laity and cover most imaginable subjects including Canonical Affairs, Canonical Regional Planning,  Clergy Matters, Financial Affairs, Legal Affairs, Liturgy, Pastoral Practice, Theological Education and Youth.  

Summaries of the committee structure, including membership and actions to date are available at http://assemblyofbishops.org/committees/.

I think that much has been accomplished to date and that the framework to a solution is slowly but steadily being put into place.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 07:12:42 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
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Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,605



« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2012, 08:22:19 PM »

Here is a statement of purpose from the webpage of the North American Assembly: "The purpose of the Assembly of Bishops of North and Central America is to preserve and contribute to the unity of the Orthodox Church by helping to further her spiritual, theological, ecclesiological, canonical, educational, missionary and philanthropic aims. To accomplish this, the Assembly has as its goals: i) the promotion and accomplishment of Church unity in North and Central America; ii) the strengthening of the common pastoral ministry to all the Orthodox faithful of this region; and iii) a common witness by the Church to all those outside her. In addition, the Assembly has as an express goal iv) the organization of the Church in North and Central America in accordance with the ecclesiological and the canonical tradition of the Orthodox Church." http://assemblyofbishops.org/about/assembly

It seems to me that the paths outlined in points i, ii and iii are designed to lead up to point iv. In theory, at least, the process is consistent with what both Isa and AWR have posited.  The committees established by the Assembly are extensive and comprised of Bishops, clergy and laity and cover most imaginable subjects including Canonical Affairs, Canonical Regional Planning,  Clergy Matters, Financial Affairs, Legal Affairs, Liturgy, Pastoral Practice, Theological Education and Youth.  

Summaries of the committee structure, including membership and actions to date are available at http://assemblyofbishops.org/committees/.

I think that much has been accomplished to date and that the framework to a solution is slowly but steadily being put into place.
I am glad to see that they have started to post links to the other Assemblies.
http://assemblyofbishops.org/about/other-assemblies
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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