Author Topic: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos  (Read 4441 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #90 on: May 31, 2017, 05:26:05 PM »
"With sadness I must write that among all the “unionists” I’ve met, never have I seen them to have either a drop or shred of spirituality. Nevertheless, they know how to speak about love and union while they themselves are not united with God, for they have not loved Him."
St. Paisios of the Holy Mountain

^Canonised by "unionists".  I love St Paisios, but LOL. 
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #91 on: May 31, 2017, 05:34:00 PM »
"With sadness I must write that among all the “unionists” I’ve met, never have I seen them to have either a drop or shred of spirituality. Nevertheless, they know how to speak about love and union while they themselves are not united with God, for they have not loved Him."
St. Paisios of the Holy Mountain

^Canonised by "unionists".  I love St Paisios, but LOL.
It's a wonder there is not even enough self-awareness for them to realize that of all of their recent canonizations, not a one has been in favor of their actions.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 05:34:16 PM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Antonis

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #92 on: May 31, 2017, 05:44:22 PM »
"With sadness I must write that among all the “unionists” I’ve met, never have I seen them to have either a drop or shred of spirituality. Nevertheless, they know how to speak about love and union while they themselves are not united with God, for they have not loved Him."
St. Paisios of the Holy Mountain

^Canonised by "unionists".  I love St Paisios, but LOL.
It's a wonder there is not even enough self-awareness for them to realize that of all of their recent canonizations, not a one has been in favor of their actions.
Although I guess if you can condemn Bulgarians for phyletism because they want to use their native language instead of the Greek you've been forcing on them, you can do anything. :P
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #93 on: May 31, 2017, 05:55:13 PM »
"With sadness I must write that among all the “unionists” I’ve met, never have I seen them to have either a drop or shred of spirituality. Nevertheless, they know how to speak about love and union while they themselves are not united with God, for they have not loved Him."
St. Paisios of the Holy Mountain

Even for a clairfoyant Saint, this seems like a generalization so broad and damning it couldn't be true.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #94 on: May 31, 2017, 06:02:24 PM »
I, too, for years wanted to believe in and defend the Phanariot party, but their own words and actions were too obviously off-the-path to follow.

You should be aware that this sort of blurry outlook can result from a sort of fever of pressure on oneself and one's mind. At any rate, that has been so for me. The more strongly I have felt something, for or against; the more categorical my opinions of something; the more likely I was to have been at that time a poor sufferer from passions and bad luck. This is not to knock my ability to analyze and perceive -- I think you and I and many other smart modern folks are undoubtedly talented at that. It's to point out that the talent has little bearing on what is actually going on with the soul, unless perhaps indeed it serves as one of the many scourges of the poor suffering soul.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #95 on: May 31, 2017, 06:14:37 PM »
I, too, for years wanted to believe in and defend the Phanariot party, but their own words and actions were too obviously off-the-path to follow.

You should be aware that this sort of blurry outlook can result from a sort of fever of pressure on oneself and one's mind. At any rate, that has been so for me. The more strongly I have felt something, for or against; the more categorical my opinions of something; the more likely I was to have been at that time a poor sufferer from passions and bad luck. This is not to knock my ability to analyze and perceive -- I think you and I and many other smart modern folks are undoubtedly talented at that. It's to point out that the talent has little bearing on what is actually going on with the soul, unless perhaps indeed it serves as one of the many scourges of the poor suffering soul.

I once read a book about this exact method. It's recently been translated from the original Greek, so of course it was amazing. Here it is:

(Image removed.)


Rohzek-

Ad hominem attacks are not permitted in this subforum, per the Rules. I am imposing a penalty of 25 points. If you wish to appeal this decision, you may do so by PMing me.

-ZZ

« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 10:39:39 PM by ZealousZeal »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #96 on: May 31, 2017, 06:16:39 PM »
"With sadness I must write that among all the “unionists” I’ve met, never have I seen them to have either a drop or shred of spirituality. Nevertheless, they know how to speak about love and union while they themselves are not united with God, for they have not loved Him."
St. Paisios of the Holy Mountain

Even for a clairfoyant Saint, this seems like a generalization so broad and damning it couldn't be true.

How dare you slander the great and holy name of St. Paisios. Don't you realize he fought valiantly against the dirty Westerners and their modernist nonsense?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #97 on: May 31, 2017, 06:36:40 PM »
For example, I live in a town of 8000, and we have a Ukrainian Catholic parish, Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian?) parish, a couple vanilla Roman Catholic parishes, and a private Catholic college (with monastery) that I think still performs Latin masses sometimes. It's quite a buffet to choose from. And unless I am mistaken, if I was (or became) a Catholic I could be under any of three bishops, depending on which parish I attended.

Not quite. If, say, as a former Protestant you received a valid Trinitarian baptism in your Protestant church, you would automatically be received into the RCC in the Latin rite- that would be your sui iuris church. Of course you would be free to attend any parish you chose, but your bishop would be the Latin ordinary in your area, and you would be bound by the disciplines of your church (holy days of obligation, fasting, etc.). Again, you would be free to participate in the life of your parish, but their disciplines would be over and above what is required of you by the Latin rite. If you wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, you would need your Latin bishop to canonically transfer you to the bishop of the sui iuris church you seek to join.

Ahh, thanks :)
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #98 on: May 31, 2017, 06:40:39 PM »
"With sadness I must write that among all the “unionists” I’ve met, never have I seen them to have either a drop or shred of spirituality. Nevertheless, they know how to speak about love and union while they themselves are not united with God, for they have not loved Him."
St. Paisios of the Holy Mountain

Even for a clairfoyant Saint, this seems like a generalization so broad and damning it couldn't be true.

How dare you slander the great and holy name of St. Paisios. Don't you realize he fought valiantly against the dirty Westerners and their modernist nonsense?

I love St. Paisios.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #99 on: May 31, 2017, 07:17:14 PM »
"With sadness I must write that among all the “unionists” I’ve met, never have I seen them to have either a drop or shred of spirituality. Nevertheless, they know how to speak about love and union while they themselves are not united with God, for they have not loved Him."
St. Paisios of the Holy Mountain

Even for a clairfoyant Saint, this seems like a generalization so broad and damning it couldn't be true.

How dare you slander the great and holy name of St. Paisios. Don't you realize he fought valiantly against the dirty Westerners and their modernist nonsense?

I love St. Paisios.

I see that you've left Jesus out of this statement as well as the rest of humanity. Do you not read the scriptures? I suggest rereading Mark 12:31. That should cure you of your vague verbal philanthropies.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #100 on: May 31, 2017, 07:39:41 PM »
[Y]our refusal to acknowledge this elementary fact is not based upon any actual contrary opinions of your own. It's part of a long trend that you have had on these forums in which you must demonstrate your absolutely incomprehensible pride to always take a contrarian position on every thread in these forums and to make almost everything an argument.

+1

No. But your penchant for finding enemies where there are none is well-noted.

+1

Eww.  PO'D is even worse in this thread than he's been in the beard thread.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 07:43:08 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #101 on: May 31, 2017, 09:40:14 PM »
For example, I live in a town of 8000, and we have a Ukrainian Catholic parish, Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian?) parish, a couple vanilla Roman Catholic parishes, and a private Catholic college (with monastery) that I think still performs Latin masses sometimes. It's quite a buffet to choose from. And unless I am mistaken, if I was (or became) a Catholic I could be under any of three bishops, depending on which parish I attended.

Not quite. If, say, as a former Protestant you received a valid Trinitarian baptism in your Protestant church, you would automatically be received into the RCC in the Latin rite- that would be your sui iuris church. Of course you would be free to attend any parish you chose, but your bishop would be the Latin ordinary in your area, and you would be bound by the disciplines of your church (holy days of obligation, fasting, etc.). Again, you would be free to participate in the life of your parish, but their disciplines would be over and above what is required of you by the Latin rite. If you wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, you would need your Latin bishop to canonically transfer you to the bishop of the sui iuris church you seek to join.
Not true.  Some internet canonists were claiming this but in actual practice Protestants may choose to enroll directly in an Eastern Catholic Church without a stop-over in the Latin Church. Only Polish National Catholics are automatically enrolled in the Latin Church. 
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #102 on: May 31, 2017, 10:09:37 PM »
Jesus is the Word of God in all Christian Churches, He said no one is good , but God.

And Jesus went to all the temples even knowing He would be rejected.
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #103 on: May 31, 2017, 10:54:38 PM »
For example, I live in a town of 8000, and we have a Ukrainian Catholic parish, Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian?) parish, a couple vanilla Roman Catholic parishes, and a private Catholic college (with monastery) that I think still performs Latin masses sometimes. It's quite a buffet to choose from. And unless I am mistaken, if I was (or became) a Catholic I could be under any of three bishops, depending on which parish I attended.

Not quite. If, say, as a former Protestant you received a valid Trinitarian baptism in your Protestant church, you would automatically be received into the RCC in the Latin rite- that would be your sui iuris church. Of course you would be free to attend any parish you chose, but your bishop would be the Latin ordinary in your area, and you would be bound by the disciplines of your church (holy days of obligation, fasting, etc.). Again, you would be free to participate in the life of your parish, but their disciplines would be over and above what is required of you by the Latin rite. If you wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, you would need your Latin bishop to canonically transfer you to the bishop of the sui iuris church you seek to join.
Not true.  Some internet canonists were claiming this but in actual practice Protestants may choose to enroll directly in an Eastern Catholic Church without a stop-over in the Latin Church. Only Polish National Catholics are automatically enrolled in the Latin Church.

I have never heard of this at all. Everything I have read to this point or encountered in other people has been that validly baptized Protestants are to be considered to be properly belonging to the Latin rite when they are received.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #104 on: May 31, 2017, 10:59:53 PM »
... And Jesus went to all the temples even knowing He would be rejected.

There's no biblical account or Christian teaching to this effect.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #105 on: May 31, 2017, 11:07:23 PM »
Jesus is the Word of God in all Christian Churches, He said no one is good , but God.

And Jesus went to all the temples even knowing He would be rejected.

Synagogues.  There was only one temple.   :)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 11:07:41 PM by Ainnir »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #106 on: May 31, 2017, 11:12:40 PM »
Jesus is the Word of God in all Christian Churches, He said no one is good , but God.

And Jesus went to all the temples even knowing He would be rejected.

Synagogues.  There was only one temple.   :)

And only Jewish synagogues. He did visit with the Samaritan woman, but not in her synagogue and his message of "Salvation is of the Jews" was unequivocal.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Agabus

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #107 on: May 31, 2017, 11:48:36 PM »
For example, I live in a town of 8000, and we have a Ukrainian Catholic parish, Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian?) parish, a couple vanilla Roman Catholic parishes, and a private Catholic college (with monastery) that I think still performs Latin masses sometimes. It's quite a buffet to choose from. And unless I am mistaken, if I was (or became) a Catholic I could be under any of three bishops, depending on which parish I attended.

Not quite. If, say, as a former Protestant you received a valid Trinitarian baptism in your Protestant church, you would automatically be received into the RCC in the Latin rite- that would be your sui iuris church. Of course you would be free to attend any parish you chose, but your bishop would be the Latin ordinary in your area, and you would be bound by the disciplines of your church (holy days of obligation, fasting, etc.). Again, you would be free to participate in the life of your parish, but their disciplines would be over and above what is required of you by the Latin rite. If you wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, you would need your Latin bishop to canonically transfer you to the bishop of the sui iuris church you seek to join.
Not true.  Some internet canonists were claiming this but in actual practice Protestants may choose to enroll directly in an Eastern Catholic Church without a stop-over in the Latin Church. Only Polish National Catholics are automatically enrolled in the Latin Church.

I have never heard of this at all. Everything I have read to this point or encountered in other people has been that validly baptized Protestants are to be considered to be properly belonging to the Latin rite when they are received.

EWTN's apologists agree with you.

I don't really think that makes sense, though, if the Catholic Church doesn't recognize Protestant ecclesial communities as churches in the proper sense. The sui juris situation in the USA is no less messy an ecclesiology than it is for the Orthodox communion with its overlapping jurisdictions.

Not that EWTN is the magisterium,despite the weight they carry with a certain kind of Catholic.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 11:49:59 PM by Agabus »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #108 on: June 01, 2017, 12:17:58 AM »
For example, I live in a town of 8000, and we have a Ukrainian Catholic parish, Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian?) parish, a couple vanilla Roman Catholic parishes, and a private Catholic college (with monastery) that I think still performs Latin masses sometimes. It's quite a buffet to choose from. And unless I am mistaken, if I was (or became) a Catholic I could be under any of three bishops, depending on which parish I attended.

Not quite. If, say, as a former Protestant you received a valid Trinitarian baptism in your Protestant church, you would automatically be received into the RCC in the Latin rite- that would be your sui iuris church. Of course you would be free to attend any parish you chose, but your bishop would be the Latin ordinary in your area, and you would be bound by the disciplines of your church (holy days of obligation, fasting, etc.). Again, you would be free to participate in the life of your parish, but their disciplines would be over and above what is required of you by the Latin rite. If you wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, you would need your Latin bishop to canonically transfer you to the bishop of the sui iuris church you seek to join.
Not true.  Some internet canonists were claiming this but in actual practice Protestants may choose to enroll directly in an Eastern Catholic Church without a stop-over in the Latin Church. Only Polish National Catholics are automatically enrolled in the Latin Church.

I have never heard of this at all. Everything I have read to this point or encountered in other people has been that validly baptized Protestants are to be considered to be properly belonging to the Latin rite when they are received.
Well now you have.  To have a Rite one has have to have a Church, Protestants have neither.  I know first hand of several cases in my Archeparchy, they were chrismated and enrolled in our Church, one of them is a priest now.
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #109 on: June 01, 2017, 12:21:20 AM »
I like Aleteia better. Maybe because they have better content, but I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 12:22:03 AM by mcarmichael »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #110 on: June 01, 2017, 12:22:02 AM »
For example, I live in a town of 8000, and we have a Ukrainian Catholic parish, Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian?) parish, a couple vanilla Roman Catholic parishes, and a private Catholic college (with monastery) that I think still performs Latin masses sometimes. It's quite a buffet to choose from. And unless I am mistaken, if I was (or became) a Catholic I could be under any of three bishops, depending on which parish I attended.

Not quite. If, say, as a former Protestant you received a valid Trinitarian baptism in your Protestant church, you would automatically be received into the RCC in the Latin rite- that would be your sui iuris church. Of course you would be free to attend any parish you chose, but your bishop would be the Latin ordinary in your area, and you would be bound by the disciplines of your church (holy days of obligation, fasting, etc.). Again, you would be free to participate in the life of your parish, but their disciplines would be over and above what is required of you by the Latin rite. If you wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, you would need your Latin bishop to canonically transfer you to the bishop of the sui iuris church you seek to join.
Not true.  Some internet canonists were claiming this but in actual practice Protestants may choose to enroll directly in an Eastern Catholic Church without a stop-over in the Latin Church. Only Polish National Catholics are automatically enrolled in the Latin Church.

I have never heard of this at all. Everything I have read to this point or encountered in other people has been that validly baptized Protestants are to be considered to be properly belonging to the Latin rite when they are received.

EWTN's apologists agree with you.

I don't really think that makes sense, though, if the Catholic Church doesn't recognize Protestant ecclesial communities as churches in the proper sense. The sui juris situation in the USA is no less messy an ecclesiology than it is for the Orthodox communion with its overlapping jurisdictions.

Not that EWTN is the magisterium,despite the weight they carry with a certain kind of Catholic.
I believe a clarification was asked for on this and the intent of this canon was to keep converting Orthodox in an Eastern Church not force Protestants, many of whom have a minimal liturgical life, into the Latin Church.  Not that converting Orthodox are really forced to remain in an Eastern Church, many ask and are granted the switch to the Latin Church.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #111 on: June 01, 2017, 09:47:30 AM »
For example, I live in a town of 8000, and we have a Ukrainian Catholic parish, Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian?) parish, a couple vanilla Roman Catholic parishes, and a private Catholic college (with monastery) that I think still performs Latin masses sometimes. It's quite a buffet to choose from. And unless I am mistaken, if I was (or became) a Catholic I could be under any of three bishops, depending on which parish I attended.

Not quite. If, say, as a former Protestant you received a valid Trinitarian baptism in your Protestant church, you would automatically be received into the RCC in the Latin rite- that would be your sui iuris church. Of course you would be free to attend any parish you chose, but your bishop would be the Latin ordinary in your area, and you would be bound by the disciplines of your church (holy days of obligation, fasting, etc.). Again, you would be free to participate in the life of your parish, but their disciplines would be over and above what is required of you by the Latin rite. If you wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, you would need your Latin bishop to canonically transfer you to the bishop of the sui iuris church you seek to join.
Not true.  Some internet canonists were claiming this but in actual practice Protestants may choose to enroll directly in an Eastern Catholic Church without a stop-over in the Latin Church. Only Polish National Catholics are automatically enrolled in the Latin Church.

I have never heard of this at all. Everything I have read to this point or encountered in other people has been that validly baptized Protestants are to be considered to be properly belonging to the Latin rite when they are received.

EWTN's apologists agree with you.

I don't really think that makes sense, though, if the Catholic Church doesn't recognize Protestant ecclesial communities as churches in the proper sense. The sui juris situation in the USA is no less messy an ecclesiology than it is for the Orthodox communion with its overlapping jurisdictions.

Not that EWTN is the magisterium,despite the weight they carry with a certain kind of Catholic.
I believe a clarification was asked for on this and the intent of this canon was to keep converting Orthodox in an Eastern Church not force Protestants, many of whom have a minimal liturgical life, into the Latin Church. 

Right, e.g. the case of the Assembly of God group in the process of being received in to the the local BCC church out west.

Has this clarification been officially promulgated somewhere?
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #112 on: June 01, 2017, 11:30:49 AM »
For example, I live in a town of 8000, and we have a Ukrainian Catholic parish, Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian?) parish, a couple vanilla Roman Catholic parishes, and a private Catholic college (with monastery) that I think still performs Latin masses sometimes. It's quite a buffet to choose from. And unless I am mistaken, if I was (or became) a Catholic I could be under any of three bishops, depending on which parish I attended.

Not quite. If, say, as a former Protestant you received a valid Trinitarian baptism in your Protestant church, you would automatically be received into the RCC in the Latin rite- that would be your sui iuris church. Of course you would be free to attend any parish you chose, but your bishop would be the Latin ordinary in your area, and you would be bound by the disciplines of your church (holy days of obligation, fasting, etc.). Again, you would be free to participate in the life of your parish, but their disciplines would be over and above what is required of you by the Latin rite. If you wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, you would need your Latin bishop to canonically transfer you to the bishop of the sui iuris church you seek to join.
Not true.  Some internet canonists were claiming this but in actual practice Protestants may choose to enroll directly in an Eastern Catholic Church without a stop-over in the Latin Church. Only Polish National Catholics are automatically enrolled in the Latin Church.

I have never heard of this at all. Everything I have read to this point or encountered in other people has been that validly baptized Protestants are to be considered to be properly belonging to the Latin rite when they are received.
Well now you have.  To have a Rite one has have to have a Church, Protestants have neither.  I know first hand of several cases in my Archeparchy, they were chrismated and enrolled in our Church, one of them is a priest now.

I'm not doubting your experience, but you can go through thread after thread after thread on ByzCath and CAF and see that that ^ is not normatively the case. Or even multiple answers on EWTN that echo what Agabus shared.

Has this clarification been officially promulgated somewhere?

I was wondering this as well.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #113 on: June 01, 2017, 12:15:57 PM »
For example, I live in a town of 8000, and we have a Ukrainian Catholic parish, Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian?) parish, a couple vanilla Roman Catholic parishes, and a private Catholic college (with monastery) that I think still performs Latin masses sometimes. It's quite a buffet to choose from. And unless I am mistaken, if I was (or became) a Catholic I could be under any of three bishops, depending on which parish I attended.

Not quite. If, say, as a former Protestant you received a valid Trinitarian baptism in your Protestant church, you would automatically be received into the RCC in the Latin rite- that would be your sui iuris church. Of course you would be free to attend any parish you chose, but your bishop would be the Latin ordinary in your area, and you would be bound by the disciplines of your church (holy days of obligation, fasting, etc.). Again, you would be free to participate in the life of your parish, but their disciplines would be over and above what is required of you by the Latin rite. If you wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, you would need your Latin bishop to canonically transfer you to the bishop of the sui iuris church you seek to join.
Not true.  Some internet canonists were claiming this but in actual practice Protestants may choose to enroll directly in an Eastern Catholic Church without a stop-over in the Latin Church. Only Polish National Catholics are automatically enrolled in the Latin Church.

I have never heard of this at all. Everything I have read to this point or encountered in other people has been that validly baptized Protestants are to be considered to be properly belonging to the Latin rite when they are received.

EWTN's apologists agree with you.

I don't really think that makes sense, though, if the Catholic Church doesn't recognize Protestant ecclesial communities as churches in the proper sense. The sui juris situation in the USA is no less messy an ecclesiology than it is for the Orthodox communion with its overlapping jurisdictions.

Not that EWTN is the magisterium,despite the weight they carry with a certain kind of Catholic.
I believe a clarification was asked for on this and the intent of this canon was to keep converting Orthodox in an Eastern Church not force Protestants, many of whom have a minimal liturgical life, into the Latin Church. 

Right, e.g. the case of the Assembly of God group in the process of being received in to the the local BCC church out west.

Has this clarification been officially promulgated somewhere?
Clarifications usually have a protocol number but I don't know if they get collected and published.  But yes the above case proves my point.  And the Metropolia of Pittsburgh are bigger rule followers than the Melkites or Ukrainians, if this wasn't allowed they wouldn't be doing it.
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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #114 on: June 01, 2017, 12:19:33 PM »
For example, I live in a town of 8000, and we have a Ukrainian Catholic parish, Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian?) parish, a couple vanilla Roman Catholic parishes, and a private Catholic college (with monastery) that I think still performs Latin masses sometimes. It's quite a buffet to choose from. And unless I am mistaken, if I was (or became) a Catholic I could be under any of three bishops, depending on which parish I attended.

Not quite. If, say, as a former Protestant you received a valid Trinitarian baptism in your Protestant church, you would automatically be received into the RCC in the Latin rite- that would be your sui iuris church. Of course you would be free to attend any parish you chose, but your bishop would be the Latin ordinary in your area, and you would be bound by the disciplines of your church (holy days of obligation, fasting, etc.). Again, you would be free to participate in the life of your parish, but their disciplines would be over and above what is required of you by the Latin rite. If you wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, you would need your Latin bishop to canonically transfer you to the bishop of the sui iuris church you seek to join.
Not true.  Some internet canonists were claiming this but in actual practice Protestants may choose to enroll directly in an Eastern Catholic Church without a stop-over in the Latin Church. Only Polish National Catholics are automatically enrolled in the Latin Church.

I have never heard of this at all. Everything I have read to this point or encountered in other people has been that validly baptized Protestants are to be considered to be properly belonging to the Latin rite when they are received.
Well now you have.  To have a Rite one has have to have a Church, Protestants have neither.  I know first hand of several cases in my Archeparchy, they were chrismated and enrolled in our Church, one of them is a priest now.

I'm not doubting your experience, but you can go through thread after thread after thread on ByzCath and CAF and see that that ^ is not normatively the case. Or even multiple answers on EWTN that echo what Agabus shared.

Has this clarification been officially promulgated somewhere?

I was wondering this as well.

But I am telling you this is the case in real life.  I don't care what internet canonists or EWTN says.  Have converts been erroneously told this?  I am sure.  But Latins are constantly screwing things up and violating canons concerning us.  Forcing our kids through First Communions and Confirmations, marrying our people without dispensation, etc.
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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #115 on: June 01, 2017, 12:44:53 PM »
For example, I live in a town of 8000, and we have a Ukrainian Catholic parish, Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian?) parish, a couple vanilla Roman Catholic parishes, and a private Catholic college (with monastery) that I think still performs Latin masses sometimes. It's quite a buffet to choose from. And unless I am mistaken, if I was (or became) a Catholic I could be under any of three bishops, depending on which parish I attended.

Not quite. If, say, as a former Protestant you received a valid Trinitarian baptism in your Protestant church, you would automatically be received into the RCC in the Latin rite- that would be your sui iuris church. Of course you would be free to attend any parish you chose, but your bishop would be the Latin ordinary in your area, and you would be bound by the disciplines of your church (holy days of obligation, fasting, etc.). Again, you would be free to participate in the life of your parish, but their disciplines would be over and above what is required of you by the Latin rite. If you wanted to be an Eastern Catholic, you would need your Latin bishop to canonically transfer you to the bishop of the sui iuris church you seek to join.
Not true.  Some internet canonists were claiming this but in actual practice Protestants may choose to enroll directly in an Eastern Catholic Church without a stop-over in the Latin Church. Only Polish National Catholics are automatically enrolled in the Latin Church.

I have never heard of this at all. Everything I have read to this point or encountered in other people has been that validly baptized Protestants are to be considered to be properly belonging to the Latin rite when they are received.
Well now you have.  To have a Rite one has have to have a Church, Protestants have neither.  I know first hand of several cases in my Archeparchy, they were chrismated and enrolled in our Church, one of them is a priest now.

I'm not doubting your experience, but you can go through thread after thread after thread on ByzCath and CAF and see that that ^ is not normatively the case. Or even multiple answers on EWTN that echo what Agabus shared.

Has this clarification been officially promulgated somewhere?

I was wondering this as well.

But I am telling you this is the case in real life.  I don't care what internet canonists or EWTN says.  Have converts been erroneously told this?  I am sure.  But Latins are constantly screwing things up and violating canons concerning us.  Forcing our kids through First Communions and Confirmations, marrying our people without dispensation, etc.

Okay? As I said, I don't doubt your experience. I believe what you have seen. I agree that Latins are constantly screwing things up for you, so the idea that this is one more thing on a long list of screw-ups is not at all hard for me to accept. But obviously it happens this way in real life, too. It's not just an "internet canonist" old wive's tale that has never affected people on the ground. That's what I'm saying.
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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #116 on: June 01, 2017, 04:35:55 PM »
The Constantinopolitan Synod has been a disaster for at least the past century, which I think is at least partially the spiritual fruit of being a synod composed of almost exclusively armchair bishops (can there even be such a thing?).

While it is true that a number of the hierarchs on the Patriarchal Synod are purely titular Metropolitans, that wasn't the case before 1955.  There were a lot of Greeks in the City before the pogroms.  And even now, a number of the hierarchs serve essentially as parish priests (alongside the actual priests assigned to the communities) in and around Constantinople.  Plus, for the last decade and a half the Patriarchal Synod has included hierarchs from outside Constantinople, and the meetings are dominated by the business of life outside the City.

There is a very concerted effort to construct a cult of personality around the person of the Ecumenical Patriarch in a way you see with no other bishop, complete with a faux-"servant leader" persona, plenty of pictures with children and cute animals, books, globalist pet causes, lectures, and panegyrics from a swath of sycophants that remind you of the servants from The Emperor's New Clothes.

I guess you can be skeptical about the motives of anyone who likes kids, animals, the environment, etc.  My impression from witnessing the interactions firsthand is that these interactions are true pastoral encounters and the causes are real priorities, regardless of how you perceive the sometimes saccharine veneer applied to it. 

Panegyrics come with the territory of being a bishop with a public ministry; festschrifts (and the like) have been published for other bishops (I can think of a few here who have already received at least one, and another who will get one in the coming year), and will continue as long as you have theologians, scholars, and other writers who wish to contribute to them.  Despite his having a ministry just as long as Archbishop Iakovos of America's, the latter has enjoyed more commemorative publications - and while his legacy is grand and his accomplishments compelling, he also had his own faults (which, according to some, were far more problematic than anything that has happened under the Patriarch's watch).  If you're complaining against the genre in general, then I can echo your sentiments (channeling the Lord's words about not seeking the reward of men); if you're complaining that somehow the works generated about this particular Patriarch are too over-the-top, contrived, etc., then you just need to read more widely.
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Offline Isaiah53IsMessiah

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #117 on: June 03, 2017, 02:06:34 AM »
When I was a Protestant, I also had a period of deciding whether I wanted to be Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. After a period of reflection I did ultimately decide I wanted to be in communion with Rome. So that's what I did. I love my Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ though and have a tremendous amount of respect for your faith and traditions. I don't mind the idea of a "national Church." Besides, the way, say, the Russian Orthodox Church or the Serbian Orthodox Church operates in not like that of the Church of England. Christianity, unlike other religions, typically absorbs many aspects of the culture and national/ethnic group where it is present anyway. 
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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #118 on: June 03, 2017, 03:39:15 PM »
When I was a Protestant, I also had a period of deciding whether I wanted to be Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. After a period of reflection I did ultimately decide I wanted to be in communion with Rome. So that's what I did. I love my Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ though and have a tremendous amount of respect for your faith and traditions. I don't mind the idea of a "national Church." Besides, the way, say, the Russian Orthodox Church or the Serbian Orthodox Church operates in not like that of the Church of England. Christianity, unlike other religions, typically absorbs many aspects of the culture and national/ethnic group where it is present anyway.
Why did you decide for Rome in the end? If you don't mind my asking.
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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #119 on: June 03, 2017, 04:20:51 PM »
The Constantinopolitan Synod has been a disaster for at least the past century, which I think is at least partially the spiritual fruit of being a synod composed of almost exclusively armchair bishops (can there even be such a thing?).

While it is true that a number of the hierarchs on the Patriarchal Synod are purely titular Metropolitans, that wasn't the case before 1955.  There were a lot of Greeks in the City before the pogroms.  And even now, a number of the hierarchs serve essentially as parish priests (alongside the actual priests assigned to the communities) in and around Constantinople.  Plus, for the last decade and a half the Patriarchal Synod has included hierarchs from outside Constantinople, and the meetings are dominated by the business of life outside the City.

There is a very concerted effort to construct a cult of personality around the person of the Ecumenical Patriarch in a way you see with no other bishop, complete with a faux-"servant leader" persona, plenty of pictures with children and cute animals, books, globalist pet causes, lectures, and panegyrics from a swath of sycophants that remind you of the servants from The Emperor's New Clothes.

I guess you can be skeptical about the motives of anyone who likes kids, animals, the environment, etc.  My impression from witnessing the interactions firsthand is that these interactions are true pastoral encounters and the causes are real priorities, regardless of how you perceive the sometimes saccharine veneer applied to it. 

Panegyrics come with the territory of being a bishop with a public ministry; festschrifts (and the like) have been published for other bishops (I can think of a few here who have already received at least one, and another who will get one in the coming year), and will continue as long as you have theologians, scholars, and other writers who wish to contribute to them.  Despite his having a ministry just as long as Archbishop Iakovos of America's, the latter has enjoyed more commemorative publications - and while his legacy is grand and his accomplishments compelling, he also had his own faults (which, according to some, were far more problematic than anything that has happened under the Patriarch's watch).  If you're complaining against the genre in general, then I can echo your sentiments (channeling the Lord's words about not seeking the reward of men); if you're complaining that somehow the works generated about this particular Patriarch are too over-the-top, contrived, etc., then you just need to read more widely.
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #120 on: June 03, 2017, 05:03:54 PM »
... And Jesus went to all the temples even knowing He would be rejected.

There's no biblical account or Christian teaching to this effect.
You have missed an important part of the Bible!
These are just from Nazareth, his hometown, but there is no doubt that the majority of the leaders in Jerusalem also rejected him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am saying that we are not much different today as sinners who insist we know where He would want us to worship, or that is what is important to having faith.

The Rejection at Nazareth
…54Coming to His hometown, He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. 55“Is this not the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? 56Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?”…


Mark 6:1
1Jesus went out from there and came into His hometown; and His disciples followed Him. 2When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? 3“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him. 4Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household.” 5And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6And He wondered at their unbelief.
      And He was going around the villages teaching.

Luke 4:16
Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”f
20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

23Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’ ”

24“Truly I tell you,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27And there were many in Israel with leprosyg in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #121 on: June 03, 2017, 05:31:05 PM »
... And Jesus went to all the temples even knowing He would be rejected.

There's no biblical account or Christian teaching to this effect.
You have missed an important part of the Bible!
These are just from Nazareth, his hometown, but there is no doubt that the majority of the leaders in Jerusalem also rejected him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am saying that we are not much different today as sinners who insist we know where He would want us to worship, or that is what is important to having faith.

The Rejection at Nazareth
…54Coming to His hometown, He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. 55“Is this not the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? 56Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?”…


Mark 6:1
1Jesus went out from there and came into His hometown; and His disciples followed Him. 2When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? 3“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him. 4Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household.” 5And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6And He wondered at their unbelief.
      And He was going around the villages teaching.

Luke 4:16
Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”f
20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

23Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’ ”

24“Truly I tell you,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27And there were many in Israel with leprosyg in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

No, I didn't! :) Christ preached at his hometown synagogue -- a very famous story -- which is entirely irrelevant as an argument in favor of ecumenism.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline hecma925

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #122 on: June 03, 2017, 08:09:43 PM »
One of the first things Jesus did after His Holy Resurrection was go to the beach and barbecue fish.  What does that tell you?  Hmmmmm?
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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #123 on: June 03, 2017, 08:34:50 PM »
One of the first things Jesus did after His Holy Resurrection was go to the beach and barbecue fish.  What does that tell you?  Hmmmmm?

He became a pescatarian after his resurrection?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #124 on: June 03, 2017, 09:02:39 PM »
One of the first things Jesus did after His Holy Resurrection was go to the beach and barbecue fish.  What does that tell you?  Hmmmmm?

More like "Mmmmmm!"
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #125 on: June 03, 2017, 10:19:15 PM »
The article in the OP is inane, but there's no denying that Byzantine snobbery is a real and powerful force in the Orthodox Church. It not only leads to indifference or antipathy to Latin customs, but has also brought about the suppression of numerous local eastern traditions.

+1

Quote
Of course, we have yet to promote a Greek see to supreme, universal jurisdiction over the entire worldwide church.

"Yet."

Indeed.  There was the very troubling article authored by His Eminence the Metropolitan of Bursa, under whose tenure the last church in Bursa recently closed, sadly, which may or may not have been his fault (it could well be attrition + Erdogan factors), on the power, prerogatives and authorities reserved to His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, which is best summarized by its title: "First without equals."

There is a culture of Phanariot crypto-Papalism, which has manifested itself in disturbing ways in recent occurrences involving the Czech and Slovak Church, and which also tends to be asserted in the uncompromising attitude the EP has towards the diaspora; one gets the sense that the EP actively desires control over as much of the diaspora as it can get, in order to stay relevant and maintain legitimacy as the court of last appeal under Canon 28, et cetera.  At times people have expressed sincere and credible concerns regarding high profile acts on the part of the EP that appear to risk schism, promote disunity, or assert an authority over other autocephalous churches which the EP in fact lacks.

Fortunately, the EP is sort of counterbalanced by the MP, who one at times suspects might himself, as the Patriarch of the Third Rome, try to grab the Canon 28 prerogatives that would be held by the Pope of Rome had the Great Schism not happened, and thus we have these two great magnetic poles of authority in Eastern Orthodoxy, with the smaller autocephalous churches sort of oscillating between in response to various ecclesial-political events, which are usually unpleasant.  This undesirable political situation is probably inevitable due to the juridicial functions created by Canon 28 of Constantinople and the history of the Orthodox Church in the 20th century.

Or perhaps he is called by Christ to be our shepherd and is moved from his heart to do his job.

Are you suggesting the Ecumenical Patriarch is called by Christ to be our universal shepherd, and nor just the shepherd of the Patriarchate of Constantinople?

If so, how is that different from Roman Catholicism?

And how does that not contradict the warning of Pope St. Gregory Dialogos, that we like to use in anti-Catholic polemics, although which was in fact originally written as a criticism of the title "ecumenical Patriarch" where ecumenical is understood to mean "universal", that any bishop claiming universal jurisdiction is the precursor to the anti-Christ?

Its clear that some Patriarchs of Constantinople desired power equivalent to the Pope, but never got it; others absolutely have rejected that power.  I doubt His All Holiness Bartholomew seeks power, but when people like the Metropolitan of Bursa rush to defend him with articles like First Without Equals, it is dangerous.

In like manner, I see no reason why we should regard the Ecumenical Patriarch as having been called by Christ to be the shepherd over the other fourteeen autocephalous churches.  He is no more the shepherd of the Church of Romania, for example, than the Patriarch of Alexandria or the Archbishop of Cyprus.
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #126 on: June 06, 2017, 03:18:17 PM »
... And Jesus went to all the temples even knowing He would be rejected.

There's no biblical account or Christian teaching to this effect.
You have missed an important part of the Bible!
These are just from Nazareth, his hometown, but there is no doubt that the majority of the leaders in Jerusalem also rejected him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am saying that we are not much different today as sinners who insist we know where He would want us to worship, or that is what is important to having faith.

The Rejection at Nazareth
…54Coming to His hometown, He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. 55“Is this not the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? 56Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?”…


Mark 6:1
1Jesus went out from there and came into His hometown; and His disciples followed Him. 2When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? 3“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him. 4Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household.” 5And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6And He wondered at their unbelief.
      And He was going around the villages teaching.

Luke 4:16
Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”f
20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

23Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’ ”

24“Truly I tell you,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27And there were many in Israel with leprosyg in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

No, I didn't! :) Christ preached at his hometown synagogue -- a very famous story -- which is entirely irrelevant as an argument in favor of ecumenism.

I said above, which you chose to quote, that Jesus knew he would be rejected at the temple, or synagogues, this story in many places in the Bible is exactly what I said, which you said was not supported by scripture.

I quoted scripture above that says exactly that He was rejected, and they tried to kill Him. The Temple leaders did kill Him later.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #127 on: June 07, 2017, 10:16:35 AM »
Do not want to appear arrogant, but:
Do you realize that all the quibbling here only helps to prove the article right to some extent?

How so?  I'd appreciate it if you could elabourate on this. 

Quote
Who is the Orthodox bishop of New York City?
There are probably a handful candidates and their jurisdictions at least partially overlap.

Who's the Catholic bishop of New York City?  Naming a diocese after Our Lady of X or some saint doesn't mean the bishops are not here and don't have jurisdiction.  By my count (based on the USCCB website), there are four resident within the geographic bounds of New York City.  Since "Brooklyn" is not really an entity in and of itself, its Latin bishop could also reasonably be included in NYC, but we'll leave him out.  We'll also leave out the bishops of parishes within the geographic bounds of NYC if they happen to live or have a title elsewhere.   

This is a canard.  The Orthodox know better than anyone else that having multiple bishops in one city is not strictly canonical according to the canons we have received, and it's not like there haven't been efforts to resolve that situation.  But this didn't happen because of "denominationalism", but was a pastoral development.  It was an imperfect solution to a real-world problem.  Some, like myself, question whether it is necessary at all to resolve this non-canonical situation, but even so, the starting point of discussion is that this practice is technically not correct. 

But in the Catholic Church?  Every diocese has a bishop, but the Pope has at least equal authority in every one of those dioceses.  Only Cardinal Dolan, for example, may bear the title "Archbishop of New York", but it's not like Pope Francis has less jurisdiction there because he doesn't bear that title.  A given diocese may have only one bishop technically and functionally, but practically it has two. 

And then there are "ordinaries", officials who are not the diocesan bishop (also an ordinary) but still exercise his jurisdictional authority in full within the territory of his diocese.  Every diocese has at least one of these (e.g., Vicar General, episcopal vicar), and often more.  Even Rome has one of these (!), a Cardinal Vicar who functions as the ordinary of Rome so that the Pope doesn't have to get bogged down by the nitty gritty of running the local diocese from which he ultimately derives all his authority.

So let's not pretend that the Roman system is somehow purer.   
For instance, who is the Vatican's "patriarch" of Antioch?-at present it has three (until recently four) bishops who claim it and its canons treat that as normal.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Why I am Not Eastern Orthodox - From Patheos
« Reply #128 on: June 07, 2017, 10:20:49 AM »
Do not want to appear arrogant, but:
Do you realize that all the quibbling here only helps to prove the article right to some extent?

How so?  I'd appreciate it if you could elabourate on this. 

Quote
Who is the Orthodox bishop of New York City?
There are probably a handful candidates and their jurisdictions at least partially overlap.

Who's the Catholic bishop of New York City?  Naming a diocese after Our Lady of X or some saint doesn't mean the bishops are not here and don't have jurisdiction.  By my count (based on the USCCB website), there are four resident within the geographic bounds of New York City.  Since "Brooklyn" is not really an entity in and of itself, its Latin bishop could also reasonably be included in NYC, but we'll leave him out.  We'll also leave out the bishops of parishes within the geographic bounds of NYC if they happen to live or have a title elsewhere.   

This is a canard.  The Orthodox know better than anyone else that having multiple bishops in one city is not strictly canonical according to the canons we have received, and it's not like there haven't been efforts to resolve that situation.  But this didn't happen because of "denominationalism", but was a pastoral development.  It was an imperfect solution to a real-world problem.  Some, like myself, question whether it is necessary at all to resolve this non-canonical situation, but even so, the starting point of discussion is that this practice is technically not correct. 

But in the Catholic Church?  Every diocese has a bishop, but the Pope has at least equal authority in every one of those dioceses.  Only Cardinal Dolan, for example, may bear the title "Archbishop of New York", but it's not like Pope Francis has less jurisdiction there because he doesn't bear that title.  A given diocese may have only one bishop technically and functionally, but practically it has two. 

And then there are "ordinaries", officials who are not the diocesan bishop (also an ordinary) but still exercise his jurisdictional authority in full within the territory of his diocese.  Every diocese has at least one of these (e.g., Vicar General, episcopal vicar), and often more.  Even Rome has one of these (!), a Cardinal Vicar who functions as the ordinary of Rome so that the Pope doesn't have to get bogged down by the nitty gritty of running the local diocese from which he ultimately derives all his authority.

So let's not pretend that the Roman system is somehow purer.   
For instance, who is the Vatican's "patriarch" of Antioch?-at present it has three (until recently four) bishops who claim it and its canons treat that as normal.
its not the first time Rome has ignored the obvious and declared it normal.

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