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Author Topic: The Evil One.........  (Read 1503 times) Average Rating: 0
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Charles Martel
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« on: December 05, 2012, 06:34:42 PM »

What is the definitive teaching by Orthodoxy of just who or what this is?

Are Lucifer, Satan and the Devil the same entity?

And what is the Mystery of Iniquity? Another words, what is the source of evil itself?

Any Eastern feedback on this would be appreciated.
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« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2012, 06:52:09 PM »

Hieromonk Patapios (Ed. Trans.), On Christian Morality by St. Nicodemos the Hagiorite, Institute for Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies: Belmont, MA, 2012, p.283.

That the Devil uses the eyes of the envious as his tools
And (4) because envy makes jealous men worse than any venomous snake. For snakes first wound a man, and then poison him by means of the wound. But envious men poison what is good by their eyes and words alone; not that poison comes out of their eyes and words - far from it! No, this is false; it is old wives' tales. Rather, on account of the baleful and malevolent disposition of their hearts, the envious Devil, who hates what is good, uses the eyes and words of the envious as his tools, and thus he withers the beautiful trees, kills fine-looking animals, and oftentimes even slays men. To put it simply, envy ruins and destroys all that is good, as Moses attests when he says: "He that is tender and very delicate within thee shall look with an evil eye upon his brother, and the wife of his bosom." [n.242 Deuteronomy 28:54] And Solomon says, "For the bewitching of wickedness doth obscure things that are good," [n.243 Wisdom of Solomon 4:12]  just as many understand this verse in this sense. Sirach says: "The envious man hath a wicked eye." [n.244 Ecclesiasticus 14:8] St. Basil the Great testifies as follows:

"Even so, those afflicted with envy are supposed to be more pernicious than venomous animals, since whereas the latter inject their poison through wounds, and gradually the part which has been bitten is consumed by putrefaction, some people reckon that envious persons inflict harm merely through their eyes...with some destructive current, as it were, flowing through their eyes, causing damage and decay. For my part, I reject this explanation as crude and as old wives' tales; I maintain that whenever the demons, who hate what is good, find intentions congenial to themselves, they twist these for their own ends, so as to make the eyes of envious people subservient to their will." [n.245 "Homily XI, 'On Envy'," §4, Patrologia Graeca, Vol. XXXI, col. 380BC]
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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 08:56:17 PM »

So I'm taking it that "envy" is the source of evil?

Could be, it's one of the seven Capital Sins, I always figured "pride" myself.

Still doesn't help me with what Orthodoxy teaches about the difference bewteen Lucifer, Satan and the "devil".

Anyone else have any sources?
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2012, 09:04:00 PM »

I was really tired when I got home from work and was sure the title said "THE EVIL EYE". My apologies! I suppose it's somewhat relevant nonetheles, since it shows how the devil works in tandem with our own evil dispositions.
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 09:22:39 PM »

Ah I see.........no pun intended.  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2012, 11:09:12 PM »

From my Understanding the Evil One refers to the Devil.

The source of Evil is the emptying oneself of God; In other word to sin. One can be Evil without the Devil, because we do not need the devil to disobey God, but just our free will. However, the devil does tempt and trick us to disobey God even unknowingly.
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2012, 10:46:48 PM »

From my Understanding the Evil One refers to the Devil.

The source of Evil is the emptying oneself of God; In other word to sin. One can be Evil without the Devil, because we do not need the devil to disobey God, but just our free will. However, the devil does tempt and trick us to disobey God even unknowingly.
Who is the "devil"? According to Orthodoxy.

Is he Satan? Lucifer? Are all these the same entity?

Interesting definition of Lucifer from Catholic Encyclopedia;

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm

As far as the source of evil, I believe it says in the bible that "iniquity" was found in his (Satan) heart when he was in heaven, he was also God's highest creation but in him was the first originial evil thought or rebellion to God's law. the first sin was the Devil's refusal to serve man under God's command, "I will not serve" replied the Devil to God. Of course this is when St Michael the Archangel challenged in kind "Quis ut Deus" (who is like unto God?).
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« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2012, 10:32:26 PM »

 I see you Easterners have no answers on this topic.

Just what I thought.
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« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2012, 10:40:58 PM »

There are many devils, but THE devil is Satan, formerly known as Lucifer.  As for the Mystery of Iniquity, I have no idea.  Someone with more knowledge will have to answer this one.  I don’t see anything wrong with what you have supplied in relation to an answer.
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2012, 10:48:06 PM »

Any Eastern feedback on this would be appreciated.

I see you Easterners have no answers on this topic.

Just what I thought.

Well that was quick.
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« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2012, 10:52:25 PM »

I see you Easterners have no answers on this topic.

Just what I thought.
Why the hostility?

Yes, the Eastern Orthodox Church identifies Lucifer with Satan.

On the origin of evil, I have heard two ideas presented by various individuals. Some have said that evil is a result of Lucifer's decision, as you said, "not to serve". Others have insisted that it originated from his envy of man and thus desire to corrupt him. Whether either of these are formalised, I know not. They are merely views I have heard (in either case, evil, according to Orthodoxy, exists because free will does).

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« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2012, 09:21:14 AM »

There are many devils, but THE devil is Satan, formerly known as Lucifer.  As for the Mystery of Iniquity, I have no idea.  Someone with more knowledge will have to answer this one.  I don’t see anything wrong with what you have supplied in relation to an answer.
Seems the Devil is also called Satan according to Sacred Scripture;

"And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: and they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Apocalypse 12:7-9)

But no where does it claim that Lucifer and Satan are the same being. although there is references in the O.T. that just may be the case;

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations? And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High. But yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, into the depth of the pit." (Isaiah 14:12-15)



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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2012, 09:31:19 AM »

I see you Easterners have no answers on this topic.

Just what I thought.
Why the hostility?

Yes, the Eastern Orthodox Church identifies Lucifer with Satan.

On the origin of evil, I have heard two ideas presented by various individuals. Some have said that evil is a result of Lucifer's decision, as you said, "not to serve". Others have insisted that it originated from his envy of man and thus desire to corrupt him. Whether either of these are formalised, I know not. They are merely views I have heard (in either case, evil, according to Orthodoxy, exists because free will does).


No hostility, it just seems to me that the EOC was more or less silent on the issue. I don't know how it works in Orthodoxy if there was more or less official doctrine the the Devil exists or that he and Satan and Lucifer are one in the same. And also questions to the nature of evil, where it comes from, why it exists or why God allows it. but thanks for your reply anyway.
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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2012, 07:30:50 PM »

There are many devils, but THE devil is Satan, formerly known as Lucifer.  As for the Mystery of Iniquity, I have no idea.  Someone with more knowledge will have to answer this one.  I don’t see anything wrong with what you have supplied in relation to an answer.
Seems the Devil is also called Satan according to Sacred Scripture;

"And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: and they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Apocalypse 12:7-9)

But no where does it claim that Lucifer and Satan are the same being. although there is references in the O.T. that just may be the case;

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations? And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High. But yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, into the depth of the pit." (Isaiah 14:12-15)





What's with the sola scriptura?
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2012, 03:19:23 PM »

There are many devils, but THE devil is Satan, formerly known as Lucifer.  As for the Mystery of Iniquity, I have no idea.  Someone with more knowledge will have to answer this one.  I don’t see anything wrong with what you have supplied in relation to an answer.
Seems the Devil is also called Satan according to Sacred Scripture;

"And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: and they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Apocalypse 12:7-9)

But no where does it claim that Lucifer and Satan are the same being. although there is references in the O.T. that just may be the case;

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations? And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the height of the clouds, I will be like the most High. But yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, into the depth of the pit." (Isaiah 14:12-15)





What's with the sola scriptura?
Not at all. It's Church doctrine that the devil exists, I'm just providing scripture to back that up.

I was only asking what Orthodoxy's viewpoint on this and some other issues concerning the source of iniquity and the identity of the "Evil One".
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2012, 03:24:47 PM »

What's with the sola scriptura?

Quoting Scripture =/= Sola Scriptura.

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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2012, 06:51:29 PM »

What's with the sola scriptura?

Quoting Scripture =/= Sola Scriptura.


Not if it confirms what the Church teaches. I stand by Church doctrine. Not Sola Scriptura.

 Now,an anyone possibly stay on point and answer the questions in the OP?
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2012, 10:14:37 PM »

What's with the sola scriptura?

Quoting Scripture =/= Sola Scriptura.


Not if it confirms what the Church teaches. I stand by Church doctrine. Not Sola Scriptura.

 Now,an anyone possibly stay on point and answer the questions in the OP?

=/= means does not equal...
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2012, 10:59:15 PM »

What's with the sola scriptura?

Quoting Scripture =/= Sola Scriptura.



Okay, but what does this have to do with my post?
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 01:37:22 PM »

What's with the sola scriptura?

Quoting Scripture =/= Sola Scriptura.



Okay, but what does this have to do with my post?

You asked "what's with the sola scriptura".  Cyrillic replied that quoting scripture is not sola scriptura. 
Quote
"Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) is the doctrine that the Holy Bible, being the Word of God, is the only infallible rule of faith and practice for Christians in the post-apostolic age." http://www.justforcatholics.org/a74.htm
My emphasis.

So, you see, it has everything to do with your post  Wink.
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2012, 05:42:37 PM »

"But no where does [scripture] claim..."

Odd thing for someone who believes in tradition to say.
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2012, 09:38:17 PM »

"But no where does [scripture] claim..."

Odd thing for someone who believes in tradition to say.
But that's the point, I can't find it in tradition either.

Although I have heard a traditional priest declare Satan and Lucifer were two different beings.
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2012, 10:59:22 PM »

"But no where does [scripture] claim..."

Odd thing for someone who believes in tradition to say.
But that's the point, I can't find it in tradition either.

Although I have heard a traditional priest declare Satan and Lucifer were two different beings.

Huh

Who are they?

Wikipedia has a good overview on it, BTW.
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2012, 09:47:34 AM »

From Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky:

Quote
The Sacred Scripture calls evil spirits "unclean spirits," "spirits of evil," "devils," "demons," "angels of the devil," and "angels of satan." Their chief, the devil, is also called the "tempter," "satan," "Beelzebub," "Belial," the "prince of devils," and other names like "Lucifer" (the morning star)…

It is not by chance that the Lord's Prayer ends with the words: "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the Evil One." Concerning this Evil One, in another of His discourses the Lord said to His disciples: "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18). Cast down from heaven, he became thus a resident of the lower sphere, the prince of the power of the air, the prince of the legion of unclean spirits.

http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/dogmatics_pomazansky.htm

For a more complete explanation of these themes, read the sections from Fr. Michael’s work entitled “Evil and sin in the world” and “The fall in the Angelic world; Evil spirits”, starting here:

http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/dogmatics_pomazansky.htm#_Toc514547757

From the Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John of Damascus, read also:

Concerning the devil and demons  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.iii.iv.ii.iv.html

That God is not the cause of evils http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.iii.iv.iv.xix.html
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2012, 11:32:54 AM »

Regarding the "nature" or "source" of evil, there is much written that could be recommended.  St. Athanasius makes some good comments here:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.vi.ii.i.vi.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.vi.ii.i.vii.html

Among other things, St. Athanasius points out that:

Quote
evil has not from the beginning been with God or in God, nor has any substantive existence; but that men, in default of the vision of good, began to devise and imagine for themselves what was not, after their own pleasure.

St. Athanasius rejects the pagan dualistic heresy which views “evil” as having some kind of substance and existence of its own, as if some power of evil existed as a god from the beginning, rivaling the true and good God.  All that God created was good, yet God alone is absolutely, eternally, essentially, and unwaveringly good.  All of the angelic powers, and man himself, were created good but were given the freedom to choose to abide in goodness and in communion with God, or to turn away from goodness.  Evil is not an inherent power with a source in Satan or the Devil, but is rather a turning away from, separation from, falling short of, the Good.  Satan was first created being to turn away from the Good and to fall into fantasy and delusion, daring to take their gaze off of what Existed and was True, to conceive in the imagination something that was false and nonexistent (that a created being could be equal to or superior to the Uncreated God).   Lucifer convinced others among the angelic powers of his delusion, and since this falling away the Devil and his demons continue to tempt man to join them in preferring fantasy and delusion over the reality of the Uncreated God and communion with the eternal Good.

Read also St. Dionysios the Areopagite concerning Evil here:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/dionysius/works.i.ii.iv.html

Among other things, St. Dionysios states:

Quote
Section XXXIV

The Evil, then, is not an actual thing, nor is the Evil in things existing. For the Evil, qua evil, is nowhere, and the fact that evil comes into being is not in consequence of power, but by reason of weakness. And, as for the demons, what they are is both from the Good, and good. But their evil is from the declension from their own proper goods, and a change—the weakness, as regards their identity and condition, of the angelic perfection befitting them. And they aspire to the Good, in so far as they aspire to be and to live and to think. And in so far as they do not aspire to the Good, they aspire to the non-existent; and this is not aspiration, but a missing of the true aspiration.

So, again, Evil does not have a power and a source but is characterized rather by a turning away from the Source of all good. 
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