OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 17, 2014, 11:43:08 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Christian Union Decides Women Should Be Seen, Not Heard  (Read 1016 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,567


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« on: December 05, 2012, 02:44:24 PM »

Bristol University's Christian Union have forbidden women from speaking at their weekly meetings.
....
Having spent ‘a lot of time exploring this issue, seeking God’s wisdom on it and discussing it together’ the CU executive committee decided that it is not appropriate for women to teach alone at weekly meetings, or be the main speaker at the CU weekend away.

Women are also banned from speaking alone at the group’s mission weeks.

However, it’s not all gloom and doom: women are allowed to speak as a double act with their husbands. Those who are unmarried must remain silent.
....
Grace, a 3rd year bio-chemist and practising Christian, described her distress at how ‘the CU action will mould many people’s opinions on Christianity’.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,013



WWW
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2012, 03:32:58 PM »


I wonder if this would also include the Virgin Mary who is a single woman.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,605



« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 03:45:59 PM »


I wonder if this would also include the Virgin Mary who is a single woman.
She didn't say much in the Gospels.

I wonder what they do about St. Priscilla.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,013



WWW
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2012, 03:53:15 PM »


Well, just because it's not written in the Gospels, doesn't mean she didn't "speak".

Some of the other Apostles aren't "quoted" either, but, I'm sure they spoke.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,388


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 04:01:17 PM »

Without the Theotokos, we wouldn't have the Magnificat. There goes part of Orthros... Sad
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,705


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2012, 06:25:10 PM »


I wonder if this would also include the Virgin Mary who is a single woman.
She didn't say much in the Gospels.

I wonder what they do about St. Priscilla.

Or St Mary Magdalene, the apostle to the Apostles.
Logged
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,391



« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2012, 07:49:27 PM »

I think that there is a difference between speaking and liturgically speaking.  I agree with Paul on the latter.  As to the former, I have found that it is near impossible to get them to shut up, so I am sure that all of the Biblical examples spoke at some point.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,724



« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2012, 04:38:22 PM »

They're Protestants, give them a break.  They don't always do that Bible thing all that well.  Every time one of them tries telling me something that God revealed to them in the Bible I just hear Sergeant Hakeswill muttering "private soldiers is supposed to share their doxies with their sergeants.  Says to in the Scriptures."

Women spoke in the Bible.  The Theotokos even conversed with an Angel and asked questions.  Mary Magdalene announced Christ's Resurrection.  The woman with the flow of blood even spoke to Christ and explained a situation to Him.

How many women debated at the Ecumenical Councils?

Different situations, yo.
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,705


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2012, 05:31:25 PM »

Quote
How many women debated at the Ecumenical Councils?

One woman indeed spoke at an Ecumenical Council, albeit posthumously: Great-martyr Euphemia, at the Council of Chalcedon.  police
Logged
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,401


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2012, 05:41:25 PM »

*cough*Allegedly*cough*  Tongue
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 05:42:14 PM by sheenj » Logged
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,724



« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2012, 06:02:25 PM »

Quote
How many women debated at the Ecumenical Councils?

One woman indeed spoke at an Ecumenical Council, albeit posthumously: Great-martyr Euphemia, at the Council of Chalcedon.  police


That doesn't count.  She never said a word so she followed the letter of the rule and that is what is important.
Logged
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,391



« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2012, 06:33:13 PM »

Quote
How many women debated at the Ecumenical Councils?

One woman indeed spoke at an Ecumenical Council, albeit posthumously: Great-martyr Euphemia, at the Council of Chalcedon.  police


OK, women can speak in Church when they are dead.  I could accept that.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,621


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 06:40:27 PM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,116


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2012, 06:42:47 PM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,621


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2012, 06:48:30 PM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.

He never ORDERED them not to marry though, but only recommended it. He did specifically say that he does not permit a woman to speak up in Church or something along those lines (been a while since I read it), suggesting that he was not leaving it up for us to decide upon but made it an ORDER. Or, have we all of a sudden become Anglicans/Eposcopals who disregard St. Paul?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,567


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2012, 07:00:46 PM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.

He never ORDERED them not to marry though, but only recommended it. He did specifically say that he does not permit a woman to speak up in Church or something along those lines (been a while since I read it), suggesting that he was not leaving it up for us to decide upon but made it an ORDER. Or, have we all of a sudden become Anglicans/Eposcopals who disregard St. Paul?
1st Corinthians 14:

As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

Has the Church declared that this passage should be interpreted in only one way?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,621


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2012, 07:06:14 PM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.

He never ORDERED them not to marry though, but only recommended it. He did specifically say that he does not permit a woman to speak up in Church or something along those lines (been a while since I read it), suggesting that he was not leaving it up for us to decide upon but made it an ORDER. Or, have we all of a sudden become Anglicans/Eposcopals who disregard St. Paul?
1st Corinthians 14:

As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

Has the Church declared that this passage should be interpreted in only one way?

I don't know. But it seems like we still adhere to it. Isn't this why women aren't allowed into the Priesthood?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,780



« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2012, 07:10:57 PM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.

He never ORDERED them not to marry though, but only recommended it. He did specifically say that he does not permit a woman to speak up in Church or something along those lines (been a while since I read it), suggesting that he was not leaving it up for us to decide upon but made it an ORDER. Or, have we all of a sudden become Anglicans/Eposcopals who disregard St. Paul?

James--It is not too late for you to reread the Holy Scriptures. Since you are on a computer, here is what you do to avoid saying "or something along those lines (been a while since I read it)":

Go to www,biblegateway.com. Select keyword search and search for "women" and restrict your search to the Epistles. You will have a choice of bibles; I chose the New King James Version. The second entry was what I was looking for (on your behalf):

1 Corinthians 14:34
New King James Version (NKJV)

34 Let your[a] women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.

Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 14:34 NU-Text omits "your."

Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,502



« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2012, 09:26:54 PM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.

He never ORDERED them not to marry though, but only recommended it. He did specifically say that he does not permit a woman to speak up in Church or something along those lines (been a while since I read it), suggesting that he was not leaving it up for us to decide upon but made it an ORDER. Or, have we all of a sudden become Anglicans/Eposcopals who disregard St. Paul?

James--It is not too late for you to reread the Holy Scriptures. Since you are on a computer, here is what you do to avoid saying "or something along those lines (been a while since I read it)":

Go to www,biblegateway.com. Select keyword search and search for "women" and restrict your search to the Epistles. You will have a choice of bibles; I chose the New King James Version. The second entry was what I was looking for (on your behalf):

1 Corinthians 14:34
New King James Version (NKJV)

34 Let your[a] women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.

Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 14:34 NU-Text omits "your."


[long reply to Carl redacted due to its inevitable pointlessness]

James holler sometime and we'll read this carefully.

People don't read Scripture or not very closely and certainly not aloud (unless someone is "chanting" it during the liturgy which I am sure is exactly how the Church of Corinth received the Epistle) and thus miss some the rhetorical patterns used in the more formally crafted works in the NT.

St. Paul uses a strict rhetorical trope throughout the letter which is used here. It is quite clear from the earliest witnesses what is going on here and who is being rebuked.

It ain't the women.

In context alone it doesn't make sense even without the more thorough reading, look at the verses following it.

If you can read the Greek it becomes more complex.

James you might be right, but for the wrong reasons.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,388


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2012, 09:36:27 PM »

I have heard Fr. Thomas Hopko, in one of his podcasts, say that the verse about keeping silent referred to women who disrupted the service either by talking out of turn (like people do when they're trying to find a seat and they walk past a friend), or 'prophesying' without regard for whatever else was going on at the time. Some women were called prophetess in the ancient Church. St. Anna, for one. Just as an aside - I went to a parish named after her. (Though I don't think she was the kind who would interrupt the priest, or she might not have made it to having churches named after her. Smiley )
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,502



« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2012, 10:05:52 PM »

I have heard Fr. Thomas Hopko, in one of his podcasts, say that the verse about keeping silent referred to women who disrupted the service either by talking out of turn (like people do when they're trying to find a seat and they walk past a friend), or 'prophesying' without regard for whatever else was going on at the time. Some women were called prophetess in the ancient Church. St. Anna, for one. Just as an aside - I went to a parish named after her. (Though I don't think she was the kind who would interrupt the priest, or she might not have made it to having churches named after her. Smiley )

That is legitimate criticism but I find it to be weak.

Telling you biro, St. Paul is rebuking the men for having such notions.

Read that Epistle and consider that possibility.



Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,724



« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2012, 10:37:39 PM »

In the Vamratocracy, "Language Arts" classes will be forbidden on pain of immolation.  Why is it that every time the Bible says something people have to chime in and say, "Oooh lookie here, the Holy Saints and Apostles were ignorant fishermen who couldn't even write their Bibles in proper Godly King's English.  They may look like they are saying X because they plainly and clearly wrote X, but MY interpretation is so much more gangsta!"
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,621


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2012, 05:14:09 AM »

I read it again aloud with a more open mind like Orthonorm suggested and I have to admit, something does seem fishy and rhetorical about that verse. I cannot entirely put my finger on it, but there is clearly something deeper there. The next passage--where St. Paul asks a rhetorical questions--seems almost judgmental in a rhetorical manner, as if St. Paul were condemning them of something. I'm not entirely sure how this all fits in together though.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2012, 06:33:58 AM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.
Sort of, but not really.
Logged
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,724



« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2012, 10:29:24 AM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.
Sort of, but not really.

Oh come on.  You're just ruining his rhetoric with all your fancy dancy reading comprehension. 
Logged
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2012, 12:11:24 PM »


I wonder if this would also include the Virgin Mary who is a single woman.

you bet it does. Some people are weird, and will anything to brainwash people to get them to fit their agenda. Get away from fanatics. IT is either fanatics or Jesus. They don't go together.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,724



« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2012, 12:34:14 PM »


I wonder if this would also include the Virgin Mary who is a single woman.

you bet it does. Some people are weird, and will anything to brainwash people to get them to fit their agenda. Get away from fanatics. IT is either fanatics or Jesus. They don't go together.

Define fanatic.  Perhaps a working definition would be someone who would rather die than compromise themselves?
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,116


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2012, 01:13:54 AM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.
Sort of, but not really.

Oh?  From 1 Corinthians 7: 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Clearly, St. Paul says that if you are not able to restrain yourself, go ahead and marry, but all people should refrain from marriage unless they are incapable of refraining from immoral sexual conduct otherwise.

Anyways, JamesR, where exactly did you get the idea that Episcopalians threw out Paul?
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2012, 02:41:53 AM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.
Sort of, but not really.

Oh?  From 1 Corinthians 7: 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Clearly, St. Paul says that if you are not able to restrain yourself, go ahead and marry, but all people should refrain from marriage unless they are incapable of refraining from immoral sexual conduct otherwise.

Anyways, JamesR, where exactly did you get the idea that Episcopalians threw out Paul?

As I said, "Sort of, but not really."
Logged
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,391



« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2012, 10:01:43 AM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.
Sort of, but not really.

Oh?  From 1 Corinthians 7: 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Clearly, St. Paul says that if you are not able to restrain yourself, go ahead and marry, but all people should refrain from marriage unless they are incapable of refraining from immoral sexual conduct otherwise.

Anyways, JamesR, where exactly did you get the idea that Episcopalians threw out Paul?

As I said, "Sort of, but not really."

Exactly.  We can retranslate the passage to say "If you are one of the 0.000000001% of people in this world that are asexual, you should remain unmarried.  However, if you are the rest of the world that functions the way they were created, it is probably better to get married."
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,780



« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2012, 11:31:02 AM »

I have heard Fr. Thomas Hopko, in one of his podcasts, say that the verse about keeping silent referred to women who disrupted the service either by talking out of turn (like people do when they're trying to find a seat and they walk past a friend), or 'prophesying' without regard for whatever else was going on at the time. Some women were called prophetess in the ancient Church. St. Anna, for one. Just as an aside - I went to a parish named after her. (Though I don't think she was the kind who would interrupt the priest, or she might not have made it to having churches named after her. Smiley )

That is legitimate criticism but I find it to be weak.

Telling you biro, St. Paul is rebuking the men for having such notions.

Read that Epistle and consider that possibility.





That's not it. If you think about it, in public worship, unless it is one of those free-for-all, cacophonous types, there is some order and no one is allowed to speak unless he has a place on the agenda and certainly not out of turn. It appears that the Church in Corinth was becoming fractured in doctrine and praxis, particularly in public worship. I read the First Corinthians as an attempt to impose orthodoxy. It may be that Saint Paul's prescription for Corinth may indeed include the blunt advice for women there to be silent. I think that before we make this a prescription for all, we should put it into context.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,391



« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2012, 11:54:20 AM »

It may be that Saint Paul's prescription for Corinth may indeed include the blunt advice for women there to be silent. I think that before we make this a prescription for all, we should put it into context.

I think this line of thinking is dangerous.  Paul wrote other letters to other Churches, yet the ones that we have in the Epistles are the ones that were handed down.  These were chosen by holy men much closer to the "cultural context" of the times than any one living today.  It is more likely that the letters intended for only one Churches specific issue were the ones that are lost to us, and the ones that the Holy Spirit intended for us to have and use 2000 years later because their message is for all times are the ones that He destined to be in the Scriptures that we use today.  The problem is not that the scriptures needed some kind of textual criticism to be understood properly.  The problem is that our faithlessness does not like what we read.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,388


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2012, 12:39:01 PM »

Quote from: Punch

Exactly.  We can retranslate the passage to say "If you are one of the 0.000000001% of people in this world that are asexual, you should remain unmarried.  However, if you are the rest of the world that functions the way they were created, it is probably better to get married."

I've always thought it meant something like that.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,116


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2012, 05:17:11 PM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.
Sort of, but not really.

Oh?  From 1 Corinthians 7: 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Clearly, St. Paul says that if you are not able to restrain yourself, go ahead and marry, but all people should refrain from marriage unless they are incapable of refraining from immoral sexual conduct otherwise.

Anyways, JamesR, where exactly did you get the idea that Episcopalians threw out Paul?

As I said, "Sort of, but not really."

Exactly.  We can retranslate the passage to say "If you are one of the 0.000000001% of people in this world that are asexual, you should remain unmarried.  However, if you are the rest of the world that functions the way they were created, it is probably better to get married."

So you disagree with monasticism?  And why did your children not marry at about 13?
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,391



« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2012, 05:45:02 PM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.
Sort of, but not really.

Oh?  From 1 Corinthians 7: 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Clearly, St. Paul says that if you are not able to restrain yourself, go ahead and marry, but all people should refrain from marriage unless they are incapable of refraining from immoral sexual conduct otherwise.

Anyways, JamesR, where exactly did you get the idea that Episcopalians threw out Paul?

As I said, "Sort of, but not really."

Exactly.  We can retranslate the passage to say "If you are one of the 0.000000001% of people in this world that are asexual, you should remain unmarried.  However, if you are the rest of the world that functions the way they were created, it is probably better to get married."

So you disagree with monasticism?  And why did your children not marry at about 13?

How did you get that?  My Godfather is a monk.  I do, however, have to admit that I was off by a few zeros.  There are around 100000 monks in the world (of all religions, according to some sources) and 7 billion people in the world.  But the point is still valid.  Your second question is simply idiotic (moreso than your first), so I will ignore it.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,228


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2012, 08:23:10 PM »


I wonder if this would also include the Virgin Mary who is a single woman.

I wonder if she would be allowed on Athos.... Or Martha for that matter.

Of course, clergy is all men...
I don't see it as dominance, I see this as scriptural.   "Man is the head of women".   "Wives submit to your husbands, and husbands love your wives as yourself".

There's a lot of odd contrasts we could talk about here.

Should women be "speaking" at such venues when women are not clergy, cannot receive ordination, etc.

"Woman what does this concern you" was spoken to the Virgin Mary.

Anyway, food for thought.... Just posting random thoughts.  Seriously not trying to troll or anything... It's a very controversial issue.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 08:23:33 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,228


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2012, 08:29:15 PM »

Didn't St. Paul say for them not to?

St. Paul also said people shouldn't marry.
Sort of, but not really.

Oh?  From 1 Corinthians 7: 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Clearly, St. Paul says that if you are not able to restrain yourself, go ahead and marry, but all people should refrain from marriage unless they are incapable of refraining from immoral sexual conduct otherwise.

Anyways, JamesR, where exactly did you get the idea that Episcopalians threw out Paul?

As I said, "Sort of, but not really."

Exactly.  We can retranslate the passage to say "If you are one of the 0.000000001% of people in this world that are asexual, you should remain unmarried.  However, if you are the rest of the world that functions the way they were created, it is probably better to get married."

So you disagree with monasticism?  And why did your children not marry at about 13?

Just saying, back in the time this was written, children did often get married at 13-15.  In fact, many scholars of Christian theology believe Mary to have been married between these ages.

I do have a 13 year old daughter.  If we lived in a small village, and we knew of a family, with a young teen like her... They knew each other their entire lives, and we their family all well known within the village.  I very well may not object to her being married in a year or so if they both wanted to.  It would help if it was many years back as well, where people wouldn't gasp...

Today with such disassociation with wholesome lifestyles, 18 being the magic age of adult, and 28 year olds who still have not grown up, and 18 finishing high school in this country, it makes this scripture hard to figure out how to apply it.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.145 seconds with 64 queries.