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Author Topic: All men deserve to have separation with God forever and suffer eternal torment?  (Read 786 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: December 05, 2012, 07:23:48 AM »

In Protestant, I often hear that All men have broken, sinned,  againsted God, given offensive to Him, all of us are  the enemies of God, so we are all deserved to have separation with Him and suffer the eternal torments. Thus, It is nothing wrong that God only elected certain men and save them.

Do Orthodox Christians agree that all men deserve to have separation with God forever and suffer eternal torment?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 07:27:54 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2012, 08:29:22 AM »

This isn't what all Protestants believe, only certain ones.
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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 09:06:06 AM »

Dear Walter,

I have never learned anything in the Orthodox Church that agrees with the idea of predestination.

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Happy Lutheran
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2012, 10:49:29 AM »

In Protestant, I often hear that All men have broken, sinned,  againsted God, given offensive to Him, all of us are  the enemies of God, so we are all deserved to have separation with Him and suffer the eternal torments. Thus, It is nothing wrong that God only elected certain men and save them.

Do Orthodox Christians agree that all men deserve to have separation with God forever and suffer eternal torment?

Scripture is pretty clear:

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

However, I do disagree with the Calvin view of predestination, and if God felt we deserve to suffer and have eternal torment why would he give us a redeemer?

But to the point of all men being broken and sinful it's pretty clear that's true.
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 11:24:57 AM »

God only elected certain men and save them.

This is not Orthodox.
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2012, 01:30:17 AM »

As for all people being sinners, that is true.

As for who deserves hell, I can only speak for myself, since I am the worst of the lot and all others have ignorance for an excuse, but I know the love and mercy of God and continue to choose to sin.

But, still, I have Christ for my Savior. It is a miracle.
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2012, 01:45:08 AM »

In Protestant, I often hear that All men have broken, sinned,  againsted God, given offensive to Him, all of us are  the enemies of God, so we are all deserved to have separation with Him and suffer the eternal torments. Thus, It is nothing wrong that God only elected certain men and save them.

Do Orthodox Christians agree that all men deserve to have separation with God forever and suffer eternal torment?

Scripture is pretty clear:

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

However, I do disagree with the Calvin view of predestination, and if God felt we deserve to suffer and have eternal torment why would he give us a redeemer?

But to the point of all men being broken and sinful it's pretty clear that's true.
How is this the Orthodox response Walter requested?
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2012, 02:39:24 AM »

Do Orthodox Christians agree that all men deserve to have separation with God forever and suffer eternal torment?

In my personal opinion, no, we don't. Only Adam and Eve do because they fell. We however were born into bad circumstances suffering the consequences of their sin, therefore our personal sins are merely the natural result of what a broken machine would produce--hence why sin is more of a disease in need of healing opposed to a crime in need of punishment. Jesus healed the disease through His death by fixing the machine, making it possible for all of us to be fixed. Now, our only guilt lies in not accepting Jesus' healing powers which are found via the Sacramental life of the Church.
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2012, 02:45:30 AM »

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

As most western theologians, you are reducing the concept of righteousness down to merely referring to personal guilt and legalism. Are you going to tell me that a newborn baby is guilty of personal guilt? That would be pretty stupid and illogical--as is the whole notion of inherited guilt. However, they are unrighteous in the sense that they have inherited death. Righteousness also refers to death. You can be perfectly clean from any personal guilt, but you would still be unrighteous in the sense that you are subject to death until you are Baptised.

So in response to the original OP's question, all people are unrighteous in the sense that they inherited death, but in a legalistic, personal-guilt sense, that varies.
 
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Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Sin doesn't always mean guilt. Sin can refer to death.

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But to the point of all men being broken and sinful it's pretty clear that's true.

It is, if you mean they are broken and sinful in the sense that they are subject to death unless they are Baptised.
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2012, 08:51:56 AM »

It is important to discern the spirit in which we say something. Protestants mean it in a legalistic way. Orthodoxy does not see things in legalistic terms, but in existential ones. Sin does separate all of us from God, therefore, we have to repent and be healed. If we don't repent, then yes, we will be sent to Hell because of our own choice to remain in our sins. Otherwise, God loves everybody and wishes that we all live. It just so happens that we are all born into and infected by sin, so to speak, and the choice to repent is ours.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Very true! Like I said, we are all sinners, and we must be humble and repentant before The Glory of God because of this, so that we can be received and healed by God.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 09:04:47 AM by IoanC » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2012, 12:09:16 PM »



Sin doesn't always mean guilt. Sin can refer to death.

Sure, that's a fine way to express it but that is what original sin is. We are born seperated from God. Ask a Bush person in Africa who worships a Pagan God where his "Free Will" to choose Christ was? Was he guilty of his sin? No. Is he going to suffer eternal death without faith and knowledge of Christ? I guess I don't get to judge but it would seem that way.
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2012, 12:15:11 PM »

In Protestant, I often hear that All men have broken, sinned,  againsted God, given offensive to Him, all of us are  the enemies of God, so we are all deserved to have separation with Him and suffer the eternal torments. Thus, It is nothing wrong that God only elected certain men and save them.

Do Orthodox Christians agree that all men deserve to have separation with God forever and suffer eternal torment?

Scripture is pretty clear:

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

However, I do disagree with the Calvin view of predestination, and if God felt we deserve to suffer and have eternal torment why would he give us a redeemer?

But to the point of all men being broken and sinful it's pretty clear that's true.
How is this the Orthodox response Walter requested?

Sorry, from previous conversations with Walter I thought he was open to any of our opinions, if not Walter I apologize.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 12:15:33 PM by Happy Lutheran » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 01:50:24 PM »

In Protestant, I often hear that All men have broken, sinned,  againsted God, given offensive to Him, all of us are  the enemies of God, so we are all deserved to have separation with Him and suffer the eternal torments. Thus, It is nothing wrong that God only elected certain men and save them.

Do Orthodox Christians agree that all men deserve to have separation with God forever and suffer eternal torment?

Scripture is pretty clear:

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

However, I do disagree with the Calvin view of predestination, and if God felt we deserve to suffer and have eternal torment why would he give us a redeemer?

But to the point of all men being broken and sinful it's pretty clear that's true.
How is this the Orthodox response Walter requested?

Sorry, from previous conversations with Walter I thought he was open to any of our opinions, if not Walter I apologize.
Well, he did ask if Orthodox Christians agree with what he understands to be a Protestant concept of hell. I think any reasonable person would think it fair to say that he wasn't open to just any opinion.
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2012, 06:32:02 PM »

Ask a Bush person in Africa who worships a Pagan God where his "Free Will" to choose Christ was? Was he guilty of his sin? No. Is he going to suffer eternal death without faith and knowledge of Christ? I guess I don't get to judge but it would seem that way.

Interesting question and admittedly a tough one. Personally, I don't know the answer. However, I would comment that I think that sometimes Protestants place too much attention pondering on these "what-if's" and special occassions--such as the thief on the Cross for example or people who right after conversion to Christ (something to do with their "faith only" salvation). Whatever God chooses to do in these specific cases, that is up to him. If He has a plan for saving that African pagan, that is up to Him. But as for us, we know very clearly what His instructions are for us--we read about it very clearly in the Scriptures and oral tradition of the Church. We should not use special one-time occassions or special instances to disregard OUR instructions, taking them and making them the normative when they are really one-time things seems very dangerous to me.
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2012, 04:02:31 PM »



Sin doesn't always mean guilt. Sin can refer to death.

Sure, that's a fine way to express it but that is what original sin is. We are born seperated from God. Ask a Bush person in Africa who worships a Pagan God where his "Free Will" to choose Christ was? Was he guilty of his sin? No. Is he going to suffer eternal death without faith and knowledge of Christ? I guess I don't get to judge but it would seem that way.

You guess you don't get to judge but you will anyway?

The problem you are having is you are begging far too many questions for us to address in one short paragraph (as you have).  We reject your presuppositions, and without those, your entire argument comes unraveled.  I don't mean that to be nasty -- I'm just stating it as a fact.  We don't agree that sin equals failure to keep the law (it's more than that), we don't consider grace to be unmerited favor (it's more than that), and we don't equate sin to guilt in the way you seem to be doing.  Rather, sin for us is "missing the mark," and specifically, this means being out of communion with God.  Adam's sin caused that, but we are not "guilty" of it, we just have to live with the consequences of it because the broken communion is an ontological reality, not a juridical one.  Grace for us is the operation of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian, specifically, in the Sacramental life.  Receiving forgiveness and unmerited favor is part of that, but not the whole of it.  Guilt is not really a part of the picture because salvation is not based on merit but upon God's love for mankind.  What you are doing, seemingly, is assuming a Lutheran view of all of these issues (sin = transgression of the law, grace = unmerited favor, sin = guilt, etc.), and then arguing based on that.  It's a word-concept fallacy.
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