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Author Topic: The Problem of Orthodox Fundamentalism  (Read 12581 times) Average Rating: 0
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GiC
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« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2006, 07:05:21 PM »

Ah, but in cases like these, experimental evidence is what confirms them as true. All theories are just intellectual wankery until experimentally confirmed. Totally abstract mathematics, uncorrelated with anything in the real world, remains nothing but wankery. Any theory stating that 2 + 2 != 4 can be immediately disproven experimentally, and so is incorrect.

Cleveland, please take note, yet another person agrees with me that the Most Sublime and Divine field of Mathematics has nothing in common with the vulgarity of the most vile applied sciences.

But seriously, actually one of those cases, hyperbolic geometry, is not confirmed by 'experimental evidence' but rather by mathematical logic. And while a proof of 2+2!=4 may cause you to question the validity of logic, I, and all mathematicians along with me, believing in the superiority of logic to observation would question the validity of your observation and the scientific method first. Empiricism is the servant of logic, not the other way around; plus, as first hyperbolic geometry and later general relativity demonstrated, observation can often be quite deceiving and very often wrong as it's relative to your perception from a given place and time as well as other variables.
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« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2006, 07:06:35 PM »

The average person doesn't need to really be worried about such things - unless their employment is such that they work in development of such technologies as would require usuage. Â But in day to day living yBeayf's cat has the right idea. Â For all of your BSing....err critical thing how do you plan to employ yourself?

No one has an excuse for ignorance, just because you're not an astrophysicist that's no excuse to be unable to use the Lorentz transforms. Just as not being a general is no excuse to be ignorant of Napoleon's Maxims of war, we all have our fields of which we are ignornat but there is no need to make excuses for it. Which reminds me of a wonderful quote that I hadn't thought of for a while:

'A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyse a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.' -- R.A Heinlein
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« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2006, 07:25:58 PM »

I'm not opposed to a good general education, such obviously has its place and benefit for everyone.  But at the end of the day I guess I'm more interested in learning skills that I'll someday use to get a job that supports a wife and kids.  I'm old fashioned that way. 
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« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2006, 07:34:59 PM »

I'm not opposed to a good general education, such obviously has its place and benefit for everyone.ÂÂ  But at the end of the day I guess I'm more interested in learning skills that I'll someday use to get a job that supports a wife and kids.ÂÂ  I'm old fashioned that way.ÂÂ  

Well, on that point I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, I tend to seek after education and knowledge for their own sake with little concern for their overall usefulness or application, as I'm sure Cleveland and christ can attest to...lol.
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« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2006, 07:45:49 PM »

Which begs the overly pragmatic question - do you plan to support yourself?
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« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2006, 10:33:39 PM »

Which begs the overly pragmatic question - do you plan to support yourself?

Well, if you must know, after I finish what I'm doing in at HCHC, I think I'm going to go for my doctorate in Computer Science, though I love the pureness of mathematical theory and have seriously contemplated going back to it, I also love the concept and study of Artificial Intelligence, if all else fails the DoD is always willing to pay someone to create a more intelligent bomb/plane/tank/etc. Though at this point I'm more concerned about what I will learn than about what I will do with it.
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« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2006, 11:43:59 PM »

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I also love the concept and study of Artificial Intelligence

Digressing even further, but hey! you're one of my intellectual enemies, then. Thankfully true A.I. is nowhere close to being realized, but if it ever looks like it's close to happening, I'm one of those people you'll find bombing laboratories and assassinating researchers. A.I. must never be allowed to exist.
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« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2006, 11:52:03 PM »

Alright fellas - back on topic!  If you want to start a Mathematics/Logic thread or an AI thread, be my guest, but don't hijack this one.
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« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2006, 01:53:31 AM »

Digressing even further, but hey! you're one of my intellectual enemies, then. Thankfully true A.I. is nowhere close to being realized, but if it ever looks like it's close to happening, I'm one of those people you'll find bombing laboratories and assassinating researchers. A.I. must never be allowed to exist.

Well, this does actually seem (perhaps by accident) to be relevant to this discussion, as we are talking about fundamentalism, isn't blowing up labs and assissinating scientists just a little bit on the extreme side? Yes, A.I. that can pass the complete turing test has yet to be developed, the common consensus seems to be that it will happen some time in the 2020's, but rest assured that once it does that I am one of those people you'll find advocating the human rights of intelligent computers and fighting for their equality and protection under the law; but then again, perhaps that's just because I'm one of those modernist ecumenist types Wink But in any case, no matter how hard you try to hold back the tide of progress, you will fail, all who have come before you and tried to do so have failed and all who will try to do so after you will fail, it's a lost cause.
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« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2006, 11:51:54 AM »

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Well, this does actually seem (perhaps by accident) to be relevant to this discussion, as we are talking about fundamentalism, isn't blowing up labs and assissinating scientists just a little bit on the extreme side?

Not extreme, merely necessary.

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rest assured that once it does that I am one of those people you'll find advocating the human rights of intelligent computers and fighting for their equality and protection under the law;

It's hard for an intelligent computer to be equal under the law when it's been blown up. Hopefully it won't even get that far, as precursors and researchers are eliminated before AI can happen.

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But in any case, no matter how hard you try to hold back the tide of progress, you will fail, all who have come before you and tried to do so have failed and all who will try to do so after you will fail, it's a lost cause.

AI isn't progress, it's abomination. I'm not the only one who feels this way -- as AI gets closer, you'll see more and more of us popping up. Good luck getting funding for your research when any halfway competent AI laboratory is the subject of immediate and unrelenting attacks.
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« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2006, 03:04:59 PM »

Not extreme, merely necessary.

I fear killing scientists to prevent research is extreme no matter how you look at it.

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It's hard for an intelligent computer to be equal under the law when it's been blown up. Hopefully it won't even get that far, as precursors and researchers are eliminated before AI can happen.

No, it's still possible for equality under the law, just so long as we can prosecute those who commit such crimes with charges of premeditated murder; infact to bring such a charge for the destruction of an intelligent computer would be a major step in equality under the law.

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AI isn't progress, it's abomination. I'm not the only one who feels this way -- as AI gets closer, you'll see more and more of us popping up. Good luck getting funding for your research when any halfway competent AI laboratory is the subject of immediate and unrelenting attacks.

I am familiar with the posistion of the neo-Luddites, nearly all of which are religious fundamentalists (with a few non-religious enviromental radicals mixed in), who believe technology and progress to be an abominatin, but it is progress nonetheless; however, technology is necessarily morally neutral, or as I would argue inherently good, the only evil can come in the application of technology to life.

As far as fudning, I'm not really all that concerned, there is enough militray interest in AI that they will always fund it and, if necessary, labs could be set up in the middle of a military base with a division to protect them. And even if the neo-luddites are able to gain undue influence in this country (which I seriously doubt they will), there are many other countries in the world that would be interested in the military applications if nothing else and I know that many researchers would be willing to uproot and go to these countries to continue their research if it was the only way to realize the creation of a computer to pass the turning test.
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« Reply #101 on: January 09, 2006, 03:25:00 PM »

Um, fellas - expound more on how your stances on AI deal with Orthodoxy and Orthodox belief...
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« Reply #102 on: January 09, 2006, 03:49:16 PM »

Um, fellas - expound more on how your stances on AI deal with Orthodoxy and Orthodox belief...

I guess I could go into why blowing up labs, killing scientists, and, as in the case of the original Luddites, leading armed rebellions against the state in an attempt to overthrow technological progress is a bad thing, and somewhat contrary to orthodox teachings. But I didn't think it was really necessary to explain why vandalism, murder, and armed rebellion are bad things.
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« Reply #103 on: January 09, 2006, 05:11:37 PM »

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I am familiar with the posistion of the neo-Luddites, nearly all of which are religious fundamentalists (with a few non-religious enviromental radicals mixed in), who believe technology and progress to be an abominatin, but it is progress nonetheless;

I am not a neo-Luddite; I love technology. I have no problem with modern computers because they are nothing but tools. With AI, though, we will have created something that is not a tool, but an independent mind, no longer under our control, with the capability to be vastly more intelligent and powerful than we are. Creating AI will be like a mouse constructing an artificial cat. The danger nuclear weapons pose to humans pales in comparison to what AI could do.

I had come to these conclusions independently, but reading Hugo de Garis' works crystallized my thinking, and showed me there were others thinking about this same issue. As you are interested in the field of AI, you've probably read The Artilect War, but if you haven't, you really should.

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And even if the neo-luddites are able to gain undue influence in this country (which I seriously doubt they will),

Just you wait. As true AI grows closer, and people have more experience with it, I predict opposition will grow much stronger and more widespread. And that's not even counting in the Islamic response; they consider mere images to be an attempted usurpation of God's creative power by man, so think of how they're going to react to attempts to create true artificial beings.

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But I didn't think it was really necessary to explain why vandalism, murder, and armed rebellion are bad things.

They're not bad things if they're committed in fighting evil (cf. St. Nestor), and fighting against AI is definitely a good fight.
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« Reply #104 on: January 09, 2006, 05:34:09 PM »

I am not a neo-Luddite; I love technology. I have no problem with modern computers because they are nothing but tools. With AI, though, we will have created something that is not a tool, but an independent mind, no longer under our control, with the capability to be vastly more intelligent and powerful than we are. Creating AI will be like a mouse constructing an artificial cat. The danger nuclear weapons pose to humans pales in comparison to what AI could do.

With every technological step there is a risk, some thought the industrial age would lead to the enslavement of all but a few, some thought that the testing of the nuclear bomb at trinity herald the end of the world, and to day the neo-Luddites believe computers and AI will spell the doom of mankind, the predictions failed in the past and they will fail in the future. Intelligent computers will, in time, be integrated into our society they will become commonplace, and we would be unable to imagine life without them. Yes, it is true that humans may have to advance and enhance themselves to keep up, but this is the march of technology, this is progress, no matter how much you fear it, it cannot be stopped and if you embrace it you're continued existance and way of life is completely at the mercy of those who embrace is, consider the Amish and the trouble they'd be in if the rest of society actually decided to eliminate them? We cannot gurantee that all future socieites will be as benevolent as the United States in this regard, thus for any country to avoid technological development is tantamount to suicide.

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I had come to these conclusions independently, but reading Hugo de Garis' works crystallized my thinking, and showed me there were others thinking about this same issue. As you are interested in the field of AI, you've probably read The Artilect War, but if you haven't, you really should.

Perhaps I could recommend you read Ray Kurzweil to balance out opinions.

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Just you wait. As true AI grows closer, and people have more experience with it, I predict opposition will grow much stronger and more widespread. And that's not even counting in the Islamic response; they consider mere images to be an attempted usurpation of God's creative power by man, so think of how they're going to react to attempts to create true artificial beings.

They're not bad things if they're committed in fighting evil (cf. St. Nestor), and fighting against AI is definitely a good fight.

Well perhaps we shall meet you and your islamic allies on the battlefield someday to decide the issue once and for all...or perhaps more likely our fully automated and intelligent artificial soldiers will meet you and your allies on the battlefield while we're back in the nuclear bunker programming the second, third, forth, fifth (using the experiences of the first wave to evolve their thinking and strategy with each new generation using evolutionary algorithms)... waves in case our already superior artificial soldiers of the first wave fail to finish the job.
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« Reply #105 on: January 09, 2006, 05:40:56 PM »

'A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyse a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.' -- R.A Heinlein

Funny:  I only remembered the last sentence.  Sad:  How many people are good at only #s 11, 12, 14, and 17!
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« Reply #106 on: January 09, 2006, 05:54:43 PM »

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Intelligent computers will, in time, be integrated into our society they will become commonplace, and we would be unable to imagine life without them.

Well, hell, as long as we're making bald assertions: no they won't. People will realize the threat and reject them en masse.

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Perhaps I could recommend you read Ray Kurzweil to balance out opinions.

He's a naive optimist.

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or perhaps more likely our fully automated and intelligent artificial soldiers will meet you and your allies on the battlefield while we're back in the nuclear bunker programming the second, third, forth, fifth (using the experiences of the first wave to evolve their thinking and strategy with each new generation using evolutionary algorithms)... waves in case our already superior artificial soldiers of the first wave fail to finish the job.

You won't even get that far.

In any case, this whole discussion is rather academic -- none of this will happen in our lifetimes. The task now is not to go out and wreak havoc, but to get people thinking about this, and inculcate an attitude of opposition towards AI.
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« Reply #107 on: January 09, 2006, 06:24:29 PM »

You won't even get that far.

In any case, this whole discussion is rather academic -- none of this will happen in our lifetimes. The task now is not to go out and wreak havoc, but to get people thinking about this, and inculcate an attitude of opposition towards AI.

Well, if the opposistion to AI becomes as militant as you suggest it will, it will still happen, perhaps with some visionaries programming in secret underneath some 3rd world dictator's compound...though I doubt it will come to that, never before in human history has all of humanity got together to ban a technology, especially one with military application, if we dont do it, the Chinese, or the Russians, or the EU will. Furthermore, the discussion is not entirely academic, as I said before the most common consensus that I have come across is that it will happen in the 2020's, early 2030's at the latest, I dont know about you but I expect that it's at least probable I'll be alive then.

Go ahead and try to turn people against AI, but science offers them more comforts and higher standards of living, I know what side they will take, easy living goes alot further towards convincing people to be, if not supportive, at least apathetic, than doomsday prophecies...and from our perspective apathy is enough. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you're fighting a lost cause, even if you got 9/10ths the world on your side it wouldn't be enough to stop technological progress...it would just mean that the other 1/10th would end up being the masters of the world.
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« Reply #108 on: January 09, 2006, 06:29:11 PM »

I don't think you're going to get anywhere arguing against AI against GiC, yBeayf, only because GiC is the first example of AI - he's not human.  Much like Cmdr. Data, he strives for human-like qualities, but only so that he can gain every advantage against us when it comes time for war.

Personally, I think pure AI could be too dangerous, especially if it is allowed to develop unchecked.  If the aforementioned AI could be programmed with some indebatable. non-reversible type of ultimate morality (like "don't kill your creator" or something like that), then it could be harnessed.  But otherwise, I think the danger could be too great - but we wouldn't get to that point until I'm well past dead, so for now I agree with yBeayf that we should spend our energy debating and philosophizing about it, to gain a handle on the potential benefits/threats, and move forward accordingly.
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« Reply #109 on: January 09, 2006, 06:50:27 PM »

...if all else fails the DoD is always willing to pay someone to create a more intelligent bomb/plane/tank/etc. Though at this point I'm more concerned about what I will learn than about what I will do with it.


Right.  Working for the military-industrial complex churning out death machines  is a completely honourable and Christian use of ones talents.  If I were in a postion to be able to do so, I wouldn't think twice.   Huh
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« Reply #110 on: January 09, 2006, 07:02:50 PM »

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it will still happen, perhaps with some visionaries programming in secret underneath some 3rd world dictator's compound

No it won't. Assertions are fun. Smiley

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though I doubt it will come to that, never before in human history has all of humanity got together to ban a technology, especially one with military application, if we dont do it, the Chinese, or the Russians, or the EU will.

Ahem... the Biological Weapons Convention and Chemical Weapons Convension? Granted, they still exist, but they are theoretically illegal. And, of course, there are salted cobalt bombs -- they're perfectly possible, but nobody has ever been insane enough as to even so much as test one.

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but you're fighting a lost cause, even if you got 9/10ths the world on your side it wouldn't be enough to stop technological progress...it would just mean that the other 1/10th would end up being the masters of the world.

Not if this sort of research is stopped before it ever comes to fruition.
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« Reply #111 on: January 09, 2006, 09:01:51 PM »

I don't think you're going to get anywhere arguing against AI against GiC, yBeayf, only because GiC is the first example of AI - he's not human.ÂÂ  Much like Cmdr. Data, he strives for human-like qualities, but only so that he can gain every advantage against us when it comes time for war.

Hey, that was said to youÂÂ  in confidence; well, now that the cat's out of the bag...

This is the Borg Collective. Prepare to be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctives to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.

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Personally, I think pure AI could be too dangerous, especially if it is allowed to develop unchecked.ÂÂ  If the aforementioned AI could be programmed with some indebatable. non-reversible type of ultimate morality (like "don't kill your creator" or something like that), then it could be harnessed.ÂÂ  But otherwise, I think the danger could be too great - but we wouldn't get to that point until I'm well past dead, so for now I agree with yBeayf that we should spend our energy debating and philosophizing about it, to gain a handle on the potential benefits/threats, and move forward accordingly.

Well, we can debate it if you wish, but the reason I haven't seriously debated the issue is because I think that a debate as to whether or not it should happen is pointless, there's no case in history where technological development was halted, even if there was a desire to do so by an overwhelming majority. The more appropriate debate is over how we will react to the development of human-like AI when it does come.

Right.ÂÂ  Working for the military-industrial complex churning out death machinesÂÂ  is a completely honourable and Christian use of ones talents.ÂÂ  If I were in a postion to be able to do so, I wouldn't think twice.ÂÂ ÂÂ  Huh

Many honourable and saintly Christian men both fought for and supported the military, not to mention our saintly emperors who commanded the imperial forces in battle. Both military service and industries that support the military are perfectly christian and honourable.

No it won't. Assertions are fun. Smiley

Yes, they can be, but they're even more fun when they're correct, like mine are. Wink

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Ahem... the Biological Weapons Convention and Chemical Weapons Convension? Granted, they still exist, but they are theoretically illegal. And, of course, there are salted cobalt bombs -- they're perfectly possible, but nobody has ever been insane enough as to even so much as test one.

Of course, as you mention, not only do such weapons exist but they continue to be developed and improved upon...now we might not have used chemical weapons since WWI and nuclear weapons since WWII, but push has yet to come to shove, I wonder how we or russia or china or anyone would respond if a foreign army was actually invading their soil, or if they thought they were fighting a lost cause...

Furthermore, AI, is substantially different from the examples you give above. The examples you give are weapons that serve only one purpose, the mass destruction of human life and are only applicable to military situations. AI has even more civilian applications than Military applications, we dont have to wait for a war before we deploy AI to advance our country and for the good of mankind, AI will benifit our society in peace time as well as wartime, though either application in and of itself is enough to justify its creation.

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Not if this sort of research is stopped before it ever comes to fruition.

While I have met many people as opposed to the development of human and trans-human level AI, I have met few who are as optimistic. If you can't see the impossibility of stopping knowledge and research from a historical perspective, or you can't see that people will come to love all the new toys that AI will offer, or reduced prices because of reduced construction costs, or how people will be attracted to the idea of a casuality-free war, then I guess you just have your head stuck too far into the sand for me to be able to convince you of the inevitability of scientific advancement. But just keep in mind that as far as you claim you would go to prevent AI, there are others who would go just as far, if not further, to realize its perfection; and unlike the Nuclear Weapon, it is something that can be kept in the basement, used, developed, and begin to grow exponentially with no one being the wiser; once the technology that give the capability is here, the software will not be far behind.
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« Reply #112 on: January 09, 2006, 09:19:33 PM »

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But just keep in mind that as far as you claim you would go to prevent AI, there are others who would go just as far, if not further, to realize its perfection; and unlike the Nuclear Weapon, it is something that can be kept in the basement, used, developed, and begin to grow exponentially with no one being the wiser; once the technology that give the capability is here, the software will not be far behind.

If stopping the development of AI meant attacking infrastructure, such as communications and electricity, such that it be no longer feasible to work on it, then I would do so. Better the destruction of our modern society than the development of AI.
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« Reply #113 on: January 09, 2006, 09:30:11 PM »

If stopping the development of AI meant attacking infrastructure, such as communications and electricity, such that it be no longer feasible to work on it, then I would do so. Better the destruction of our modern society than the development of AI.

LOL, no we're not extremists or Luddites here, not at all, we're just willing to bring about the destruction of the modern world to get our way. Quite frankly though, I dont believe you or your supporters are actually capable of bringing an end to the modern world, and if you're not capable of doing that, neither can you stop AI...short of finding some mad man with a nuclear arsenal to bring it all to an end.

Oh, and as an after thought, even if you could manage to destroy the nation's power grid, we still have generators.
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« Reply #114 on: January 09, 2006, 09:36:14 PM »

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Oh, and as an after thought, even if you could manage to destroy the nation's power grid, we still have generators.

EMP bomb.  Tongue
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« Reply #115 on: January 09, 2006, 09:56:05 PM »

"We struck first, scorching the sky...
Then they used us for what we are... batteries" (Me, paraphrasing some recent movie - the first of a trilogy - about man's fight with AI machines and their oppresive software)

I guess I will have to concede that AI will come; my argument here would be for a standard of ethics/development guidelines to follow its production.  Once human-like AI comes around, I would like to have the assurance that it will not go and do what we have only portrayed in movies as being possible.
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« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2006, 10:00:53 PM »

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Once human-like AI comes around, I would like to have the assurance that it will not go and do what we have only portrayed in movies as being possible.

Human-like AI is not the problem. It's what happens next. What happens after a few generations of AI designing another, better AI? Intelligence-wise, we'd be like trees to them.

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(Me, paraphrasing some recent movie - the first of a trilogy - about man's fight with AI machines and their oppresive software)

Latecomers. A Butlerian Jihad is what we'll be having. "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind!"
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« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2006, 10:24:06 PM »

Human-like AI is not the problem. It's what happens next. What happens after a few generations of AI designing another, better AI? Intelligence-wise, we'd be like trees to them.

Does not every parent hope and pray that his child does better than they do, that they will surpass both them and their entire generation? It is only natural that we should desire to see the same for our artifiical offspring. Plus, it's perfectly plausable that with this new found intelligence we would be able to technologically enhance humans and the human mind so that it can remain the equal of the computer.

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Latecomers. A Butlerian Jihad is what we'll be having. "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind!"

God gave unto man his creative ability, it would be a sin to subdue it and forbid it from being fully realized.
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« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2006, 11:41:13 PM »



"Many honourable and saintly Christian men both fought for and supported the military, not to mention our saintly emperors who commanded the imperial forces in battle. Both military service and industries that support the military are perfectly christian and honourable......"


Gee, thanks for straightening me  out on this topic and others in this thread, Dr. Strangelove.  In my naivete, I thought that there were some nuances to these issues, that things are sometimes not what they seem, and that we might sometimes have to grapple with moral questions.  But you've taught me to realise that it's all perfectly black and white. 
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« Reply #119 on: January 09, 2006, 11:42:20 PM »

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God gave unto man his creative ability, it would be a sin to subdue it and forbid it from being fully realized.

"And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth."
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« Reply #120 on: January 09, 2006, 11:58:49 PM »

While I have met many people as opposed to the development of human and trans-human level AI, I have met few who are as optimistic. If you can't see the impossibility of stopping knowledge and research from a historical perspective, or you can't see that people will come to love all the new toys that AI will offer, or reduced prices because of reduced construction costs, or how people will be attracted to the idea of a casuality-free war, then I guess you just have your head stuck too far into the sand for me to be able to convince you of the inevitability of scientific advancement. But just keep in mind that as far as you claim you would go to prevent AI, there are others who would go just as far, if not further, to realize its perfection; and unlike the Nuclear Weapon, it is something that can be kept in the basement, used, developed, and begin to grow exponentially with no one being the wiser; once the technology that give the capability is here, the software will not be far behind.

Yeah.  I'm so looking forward to all of this.  It's all so inevitable, we should all just give up any questions or opposition we might have.  After all, scientists, technicians, corrupt  governments and billionaires  should decide all the great moral questions of the day, shouldn't they?  As well as AI, I can't wait until I have other great advances available to me, like  my clone in the basement that I can take spare parts from to replace any defective ones I might have.  I can't wait until the government knows exactly where I am every second of the day, or until foetuses are routinely farmed for cures to illnesses etc.  After all, if we don't do it, won't the Chinese or the Russians do all this stuff?  Obviously, we have to beat them to the punch.  This can be the only response. Progress, pure and simple.   "You might as well learn to love it, because it's all inevitable anyway."  Great.  Where do I sign up?
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« Reply #121 on: January 10, 2006, 12:08:14 AM »

Top 3 Terror Threats to the Future?

3. Cloning...
2. AI
and #1.... Bears.
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« Reply #122 on: January 10, 2006, 12:12:28 AM »

  How could I forget?  There's no question that bears are the numero uno threat! Wink 
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« Reply #123 on: January 10, 2006, 12:17:35 AM »

And imagine if we made cloned bears as our models for AI bears?

See where the technology can lead us?  Only to our own destruction!
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« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2006, 12:38:21 AM »

Gee, thanks for straightening meÂÂ  out on this topic and others in this thread, Dr. Strangelove.ÂÂ  In my naivete, I thought that there were some nuances to these issues, that things are sometimes not what they seem, and that we might sometimes have to grapple with moral questions.ÂÂ  But you've taught me to realise that it's all perfectly black and white.ÂÂ  

You're welcome, glad I could be of assistance.

"And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth."

So if God is going to destroy us for creating AI, you have nothing to worry about, God will take care of it all.

Yeah.ÂÂ  I'm so looking forward to all of this.ÂÂ  It's all so inevitable, we should all just give up any questions or opposition we might have.ÂÂ  After all, scientists, technicians, corruptÂÂ  governments and billionairesÂÂ  should decide all the great moral questions of the day, shouldn't they?ÂÂ  As well as AI, I can't wait until I have other great advances available to me, likeÂÂ  my clone in the basement that I can take spare parts from to replace any defective ones I might have.ÂÂ  I can't wait until the government knows exactly where I am every second of the day, or until foetuses are routinely farmed for cures to illnesses etc.ÂÂ  After all, if we don't do it, won't the Chinese or the Russians do all this stuff?ÂÂ  Obviously, we have to beat them to the punch.ÂÂ  This can be the only response. Progress, pure and simple.ÂÂ   "You might as well learn to love it, because it's all inevitable anyway."ÂÂ  Great.ÂÂ  Where do I sign up?

Frankly I think the future will provide technological replacements for body parts that are superior to grown biological ones, making your method of organ replacement unnecessary. And as far as curing illness nano-robotics combined with AI will be able to provide far better opportunities than stem-cells. Actually, it seems that AI and technological development is the solution to the ethical dilemmas you present. But debate it if you want, but it seems quite obvious that strong AI is in our cards for the not-so-distant (next couple decades) future. Discuss how you will respond to it if you like, but the idea of stopping it is simply unrealistic.
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« Reply #125 on: January 10, 2006, 12:39:46 AM »

Like I said, don't debate robotics with a robot!  He won't change his mind...
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« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2006, 01:03:17 AM »

That much appears to be certain. 
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« Reply #127 on: January 10, 2006, 01:20:09 AM »

Actually, it seems that AI and technological development is the solution to the ethical dilemmas you present.

If that is so, then so much the better.  Except of course that there are other concerns that have already been presented concerning AI.  There  is  cause for concern, because we are advancing much more quickly technologically than socially.  Some say that we are even regressing socially.  I am reminded of a quote from "A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" alluding to the nature of late twentieth century human society:  "A society so primitive, that they still think that digital watches are a really neat idea."

Of course, if we replace enough of our bodies with the help of AI and nanotechnology, you must at the very least concede that this presents a real problem for Christians because of the belief in the  sanctity of the body.  If enough of the body is replaced, is it really a human body anymore?  And living to be 120 is one thing, but beyond this?  It seems possible that more and more, 2 classes of humans will emerge:  those who can afford to have greatly extended life spans, and those who cannot.  How can we justify virtual agelessness as Christians who live in this fallen world?  It is the resurrection that we are looking for, not continuation ad infitum in this vale of tears.
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« Reply #128 on: January 10, 2006, 01:54:00 AM »

If that is so, then so much the better.ÂÂ  Except of course that there are other concerns that have already been presented concerning AI.ÂÂ  ThereÂÂ  isÂÂ  cause for concern, because we are advancing much more quickly technologically than socially.ÂÂ  Some say that we are even regressing socially.ÂÂ  I am reminded of a quote from "A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" alluding to the nature of late twentieth century human society:ÂÂ  "A society so primitive, that they still think that digital watches are a really neat idea."

Humans can adapt, infact we can adapt very well, that's why we came out on top after millions of years of biological evolution, because we adapt better than any other animal; we will adapt to strong AI the same way we adapted to the Industrial Age, the Information Age, etc.
 
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Of course, if we replace enough of our bodies with the help of AI and nanotechnology, you must at the very least concede that this presents a real problem for Christians because of the belief in theÂÂ  sanctity of the body.ÂÂ  If enough of the body is replaced, is it really a human body anymore?ÂÂ  And living to be 120 is one thing, but beyond this?

Do we have christians have a problem with organ transplants, prosthetic limbs, plastic surgery on burn/accident victims, eye glasses, hearing aids, etc.? We already replace and augment body parts as necessary, all I'm talking about is extending already existing abilities, we're not creating any thing that is new in essence, just taking current technology and techniques to the next level. As far as age, I dont really see any real problem with living longer than 120 years, just because we may not have in the past and we may not be accustom to such a think in our society if medicine does advance accordingly it will become commonplace and we will look on the 20th century as a primitive time with short lifespands, the same way we look at the ancient or medieval world today.

Quote
It seems possible that more and more, 2 classes of humans will emerge:ÂÂ  those who can afford to have greatly extended life spans, and those who cannot.ÂÂ  How can we justify virtual agelessness as Christians who live in this fallen world?ÂÂ  It is the resurrection that we are looking for, not continuation ad infitum in this vale of tears.

I don't know that I agree with the idea of two classes emerging, for one socialism is stronger now than it ever has been before, medicine in much of the civilized world is state controlled, and thus these advances (which will first be seen in hospitals and will be classified as medical procedures) will be equally available to all, the United States is a bit behind in this aspect, but I suspect that our system will become more nationalized with time. Secondly, though perhaps somewhat further off, nanorobotics (combined with quantum computing and strong AI) does promise the potential of eliminating economic differences by eliminating scarcity, once anything can be produced from anything for nominal cost by anyone (provided you have one programmable nanobot to build your 'nanorobotic factory,' with which you can build anything you have the schematics for) traditional economics no longer come into play. Some of this may sound like sci-fi today, but the basis of this technology already exists, it's only greater refinements that we're waiting for. As far as 'agelessness' I dont see it as a great issue, even if we do live until the parousia, we still don't avoid anything.
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« Reply #129 on: December 04, 2012, 03:56:18 PM »

This article has no supporting evidence - reads like post Goebbels.  Fundamentalism, racism, multiculturism are all buzz words used to harangue normal, pious Orthodox people. I think it was Elder Paisios who said that eventually normal would be labelled abnormal or anti-social.

No. I think it was anthony the great. I am 99% sure that I read it either on a book of his. Or in a book that was referring to him. I could be wrong, but that is where I think I read it. On the other hand, this is something many people believe, so might as well have read on elder paisios books.
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