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Author Topic: Why are Roman Catholics Always Trying to Jack our Swag?  (Read 4678 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2012, 12:44:14 PM »

Something that has always confused me is the attitude of the "decision theology" folks. Why aren't such things as hearing, believing, and "making a decision for Christ", which are all conscious, volitional acts, considered "works"?
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« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2012, 01:20:39 PM »

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead.

Well, what are you waiting for?   Wink

EDIT: I never fully understood what is meant by the "as one principle" clause. Can anyone enlighten me?
I'm not fully convinced yet  Wink

There is still the St. Thomas Aquinas objection that there is nothing to distinguish the eternal generation of the Son from the eternal procession of the Spirit, and therefore nothing to distinguish Son and Spirit, unless the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son.

Also a bit of an allergic reaction to adding the word "alone" in places it wasn't originally written, like "saved through faith alone" like the Protestants say.
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« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2012, 01:52:32 PM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
not in this neck of the woods.  and there's a real question on your numbers in your stronghold (at least formerly) of Latin America.
Whatever we might have lost there, we've more than made up for it on the African continent. And the Far East.

Ah outsourcing religion..
Not quite. Africa was difficult to evangelize for the longest time due in part to it's isolation and primitive culture, the Church never made inroads there until fairly recently. Also, the "catholic" Imperial and colonial powers like Spain and France never pushed into the continent like their Prot nemisis of Great Britian and the Dutch hence the dominant  non-Catholic christian strongholds like Angelicans or the Church of England amongst the Africans. But times are changing with newer technology and mass communication making it easier for the Vatican to obtain new converts on the Dark Continent, I believe Catholicism is the fastest growing religion in Africa and the Far East these days and from what I understand and much more traditional than their "modernists" counterparts in the West.



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« Reply #93 on: December 04, 2012, 01:57:05 PM »

Sorry if I don't get anyone's jokes today; I'm on my cell with limited emoticonnectivity. ;-)
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« Reply #94 on: December 04, 2012, 02:51:37 PM »


I'm not fully convinced yet  Wink

There is still the St. Thomas Aquinas objection that there is nothing to distinguish the eternal generation of the Son from the eternal procession of the Spirit, and therefore nothing to distinguish Son and Spirit, unless the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son.

The Son is caused by generation (γεννησια), the Holy Spirit by procession (ἐκπορευσις).

What then is the difference? Let's ask St. Gregory the Theologian (Vth Theol. Orat.):

"The Holy Ghost, which proceeds from the Father; Who, inasmuch as He proceeds from That Source, is no Creature; and inasmuch as He is not Begotten is no Son; and inasmuch as He is between the Unbegotten and the Begotten is God. And thus escaping the toils of your syllogisms, He has manifested himself as God, stronger than your divisions.

What then is Procession? Do you tell me what is the Unbegottenness of the Father, and I will explain to you the physiology of the Generation of the Son and the Procession of the Spirit, and we shall both of us be frenzy-stricken for prying into the mystery of God."


It seemed Aquinas was trying to pry into the mystery and got frenzy-stricken  Wink

Also a bit of an allergic reaction to adding the word "alone" in places it wasn't originally written, like "saved through faith alone" like the Protestants say.

AFAIK, the Orthodox haven't added "monou" to "tò ek tou Patros ekporevomenon".
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« Reply #95 on: December 04, 2012, 02:52:31 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics

Yes. But one thing I have learned is that the Orthodox tend to be very different regarding ecumenism, but not necessarily better.
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« Reply #96 on: December 04, 2012, 02:52:57 PM »

A lot of Byzantine Catholics like to pretend that papal pronouncements don't apply to them in matters of dogma. This is not true. All Catholics are bound to believe that the pope has absolute and immediate jurisdiction over the entire Church and that when speaking ex cathedra in matters of Faith and Morals, he cannot err. Eastern Catholics are also bound to hold that the Filioque is sound theology even if not required to profess it in the Creed.

And if they don't, the pope has the prerogative to excommunicate them. The question is, are you the pope?
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« Reply #97 on: December 04, 2012, 02:53:16 PM »

Personally I find the whole "Unia" experiment to be a colossal failure, both for Catholics and Orthodox alike.

To me, that seems a lot like parents wishing that they had never had any children.
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« Reply #98 on: December 04, 2012, 02:55:00 PM »

Really, choy? :-(

Don't be so serious Wink

You mean, Why so serious?
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« Reply #99 on: December 04, 2012, 03:05:19 PM »


I'm not that kind of joker Wink
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« Reply #100 on: December 04, 2012, 03:38:33 PM »

I recently heard an interview with a Melkite priest on Ancient Faith radio in that he basically agreed with every Orthodox position regarding all the controversial issues. I kept wondering while listening to this: why not just become Orthodox? What real unity exists between the Church of Rome and the Eastern Sui Iuris Churches if they agree not on doctrine?

I heard that interview as well and was wondering the same thing. From what he said, it sounded like his Melkite church was basically entirely Orthodox except for the pope. Did any Eastern Catholics happen to hear the interview/have feedback on it?
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« Reply #101 on: December 04, 2012, 04:43:35 PM »

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead.

Well, what are you waiting for?   Wink

EDIT: I never fully understood what is meant by the "as one principle" clause. Can anyone enlighten me?
I'm not fully convinced yet  Wink

There is still the St. Thomas Aquinas objection that there is nothing to distinguish the eternal generation of the Son from the eternal procession of the Spirit, and therefore nothing to distinguish Son and Spirit, unless the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son.

Also a bit of an allergic reaction to adding the word "alone" in places it wasn't originally written, like "saved through faith alone" like the Protestants say.

The Spirit is eternally manifest through the Son, and this is how we know them to be different. But as Gregory the Theologian shows, even this is unnecessary for differentiating them because they are also different by virtue of their differing manners of origination from the Father. The Latin West uniquely created the problem which underlies Thomas Aquinas' objection, because they classed the Son's generation to be a procession, while we do not.
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« Reply #102 on: December 04, 2012, 05:00:27 PM »

I recently heard an interview with a Melkite priest on Ancient Faith radio in that he basically agreed with every Orthodox position regarding all the controversial issues. I kept wondering while listening to this: why not just become Orthodox? What real unity exists between the Church of Rome and the Eastern Sui Iuris Churches if they agree not on doctrine?

I heard that interview as well and was wondering the same thing. From what he said, it sounded like his Melkite church was basically entirely Orthodox except for the pope. Did any Eastern Catholics happen to hear the interview/have feedback on it?

I heard it and had the same reaction.  I think most EC Churches want to make good on the unions and get it to work.  There is a belief that we will somehow foster unity by pushing the RC to a certain degree that will be acceptable to the Orthodox Church to accept reunion.  But don't hold your breath for it, it is a long process and won't happen in our lifetime.
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« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2012, 05:49:00 PM »

Is there a middle ground consisting of people who know the differences are serious but want to keep the lines of communication open for charity's sake?
A few people come to mind.

1. David Bentley Hart is Orthodox, and pretty ecumenical. He really pushes for reunion: http://fatherdavidbirdosb.blogspot.com/2012/05/myth-of-schism-by-david-bentley-hart.html

2. Timothy Flanders is an Orthodox Christian with Catholic sympathies:

http://www.devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/2012/11/26/an-eastern-orthodox-christian-looks-west/
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« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2012, 06:29:16 PM »

So just to clarify, truthseeker, you're a seeker of lapsed Mormons? Or are you a lapsed seeker of Mormons?
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« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2012, 06:31:18 PM »

I recently heard an interview with a Melkite priest on Ancient Faith radio in that he basically agreed with every Orthodox position regarding all the controversial issues. I kept wondering while listening to this: why not just become Orthodox? What real unity exists between the Church of Rome and the Eastern Sui Iuris Churches if they agree not on doctrine?

I heard that interview as well and was wondering the same thing. From what he said, it sounded like his Melkite church was basically entirely Orthodox except for the pope. Did any Eastern Catholics happen to hear the interview/have feedback on it?

I think we had a thread about that, though I could be wrong. Was this the "East meets East" interview?
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« Reply #106 on: December 04, 2012, 06:50:12 PM »

I think we had a thread about that, though I could be wrong. Was this the "East meets East" interview?

No, it was episode 168 of The Illumined Heart on Ancient Faith Radio. Well, at least that was the Melkite interview I heard.
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« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2012, 07:42:00 PM »

Is there a middle ground consisting of people who know the differences are serious but want to keep the lines of communication open for charity's sake?
A few people come to mind.

1. David Bentley Hart is Orthodox, and pretty ecumenical. He really pushes for reunion: http://fatherdavidbirdosb.blogspot.com/2012/05/myth-of-schism-by-david-bentley-hart.html

2. Timothy Flanders is an Orthodox Christian with Catholic sympathies:

http://www.devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/2012/11/26/an-eastern-orthodox-christian-looks-west/

Wow, those were both really interesting essays! I feel refreshed. So much better. Thanks, truthseeker  Smiley
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« Reply #108 on: December 04, 2012, 07:50:04 PM »

Actually, I've found a couple of short threads on it, e.g. 2 recent Byzantine Catholic podcasts on AFR.
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« Reply #109 on: December 04, 2012, 08:00:21 PM »

Actually, I've found a couple of short threads on it, e.g. 2 recent Byzantine Catholic podcasts on AFR.

Indeed! The podcasts described there are the ones we were mentioning up above.
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« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2012, 09:05:00 PM »

I know there's another thread for memes but since this one was inspired by this thread I thought you wouldn't mind:


http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3s1nqk/
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« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2012, 10:03:56 PM »

For example, you guys STOPPED believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception.

Wha??!



Paging Master Isa
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« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2012, 10:19:29 PM »

So just to clarify, truthseeker, you're a seeker of lapsed Mormons? Or are you a lapsed seeker of Mormons?
I'm gonna change that right now. I am a former Mormon currently in RCIA, but with a great love for Eastern Christianity.

Wow, those were both really interesting essays! I feel refreshed. So much better. Thanks, truthseeker  Smiley
I'm glad you like the articles Smiley I enjoyed them as well.
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« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2012, 10:26:39 PM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
not in this neck of the woods.  and there's a real question on your numbers in your stronghold (at least formerly) of Latin America.
Whatever we might have lost there, we've more than made up for it on the African continent. And the Far East.

Ah outsourcing religion..
Not quite. Africa was difficult to evangelize for the longest time due in part to it's isolation and primitive culture, the Church never made inroads there until fairly recently. Also, the "catholic" Imperial and colonial powers like Spain and France never pushed into the continent like their Prot nemisis of Great Britian and the Dutch hence the dominant  non-Catholic christian strongholds like Angelicans or the Church of England amongst the Africans. But times are changing with newer technology and mass communication making it easier for the Vatican to obtain new converts on the Dark Continent, I believe Catholicism is the fastest growing religion in Africa and the Far East these days and from what I understand and much more traditional than their "modernists" counterparts in the West.





What is wrong with primitive culture?  You make it seem like without canned food, cell phones and money they were somehow doomed. 
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« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2012, 10:32:40 PM »

For example, you guys STOPPED believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception.

Wha??!



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I was simply recognizing that we have genuine differences.
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« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2012, 10:35:17 PM »



I recently heard an interview with a Melkite priest on Ancient Faith radio in that he basically agreed with every Orthodox position regarding all the controversial issues. I kept wondering while listening to this: why not just become Orthodox?


A) priests in the eastern tradition are usually guys who were brought up in the community to be the priest.  It's something I can't explain but you'll have to learn.  Like he's the leader and a part of your church family.  They know the congregants and they know him.  Usually it is a tight knit parish.  But Eastern in culture. Everyone is closer in certain ways than you are used to if you aren't greek/arab/slav.
He has a tie to the people he just can't leave them.  He's grown with them and they've grown with him.  Regardless of papal stuff it's still his church.
B) Health insurance and pay.  You don't want to know what most orthodox priests make and the lack of healthcare they do not receive.  I say this with most sincerity.  I'm not making this up either.  Retirement as well in the Greek Catholics.  Most Orthodox pay their priest out of the parish fund.  A few jurisdictions pay from the diocese headquarters but it isn't stellar pay.  It varies by jurisdiction and by parish on the monetary situation.  
C) He likes the melkite position and doesn't want to join the orthodox.

D) Friend of mine who has a Greek Catholic priest father in law said that he said,
If a window breaks in my Greek Catholic rectory it gets replaced tomorrow... if a window breaks in the orthodox priest's rectory it takes 9 parish council meetings, the priest getting yelled at by the parish council because the heating bill is up but they won't settle on who's cousin can replace the window cheaper..
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« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2012, 01:13:50 AM »

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead.

Well, what are you waiting for?   Wink

EDIT: I never fully understood what is meant by the "as one principle" clause. Can anyone enlighten me?
I'm not fully convinced yet  Wink

There is still the St. Thomas Aquinas objection that there is nothing to distinguish the eternal generation of the Son from the eternal procession of the Spirit, and therefore nothing to distinguish Son and Spirit, unless the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son.

Also a bit of an allergic reaction to adding the word "alone" in places it wasn't originally written, like "saved through faith alone" like the Protestants say.

The Spirit is eternally manifest through the Son, and this is how we know them to be different. But as Gregory the Theologian shows, even this is unnecessary for differentiating them because they are also different by virtue of their differing manners of origination from the Father. The Latin West uniquely created the problem which underlies Thomas Aquinas' objection, because they classed the Son's generation to be a procession, while we do not.
OK. That sounds eminently reasonable. I even suspected it was one of those things where it would turn out to be "the generation and procession are different, only God knows how, don't pry any further lest you go mad".

Something else that came to mind was that if our Angelic Doctor rationally proved everything about God including all the internal workings of the Trinity, then he wasn't talking about God at all. God is supposed to be far beyond that.

Anyway...I need a break to digest all this.
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« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2012, 09:47:56 AM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".
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« Reply #118 on: December 05, 2012, 10:02:11 AM »

Actually, I've found a couple of short threads on it, e.g. 2 recent Byzantine Catholic podcasts on AFR.

Indeed! The podcasts described there are the ones we were mentioning up above.

Yeah.

The discussion of them on OCnet has, it seems, been rather limited. However, see also these search results. (Those are on a different website than OCnet, which is why I'm not going to further detail here.)
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« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2012, 11:33:54 AM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
not in this neck of the woods.  and there's a real question on your numbers in your stronghold (at least formerly) of Latin America.
Whatever we might have lost there, we've more than made up for it on the African continent. And the Far East.

Ah outsourcing religion..
Not quite. Africa was difficult to evangelize for the longest time due in part to it's isolation and primitive culture, the Church never made inroads there until fairly recently. Also, the "catholic" Imperial and colonial powers like Spain and France never pushed into the continent like their Prot nemisis of Great Britian and the Dutch hence the dominant  non-Catholic christian strongholds like Angelicans or the Church of England amongst the Africans. But times are changing with newer technology and mass communication making it easier for the Vatican to obtain new converts on the Dark Continent, I believe Catholicism is the fastest growing religion in Africa and the Far East these days and from what I understand and much more traditional than their "modernists" counterparts in the West.





What is wrong with primitive culture?  You make it seem like without canned food, cell phones and money they were somehow doomed. 
I mentioned nothing of right or "wrong", just that it was difficult to evangelize or send missionaries.

I don't believe for a second that all the niceties of our  modern culture make us any more moral.

Quite the opposite in many cases actually.
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« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2012, 02:41:10 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.
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« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2012, 03:02:49 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.
Oh the broad brush with which you paint.
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« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2012, 03:12:43 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.
Oh the broad brush with which you paint.

My posts are always within the context of the post.  I am talking about the RCs in CAF.  I'm not going to expound on every sentence just for the oft chance someone takes offense to it.
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« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2012, 03:39:12 PM »

I'm a bit confused on this issue myself. I am currently under moderation for using a certain term which I was unaware is not allowed here (hence, I completely accept the moderation, and am not meaning this post as a challenge to the moderators...just FYI Grin), but which has been historically used without prejudice by the Roman Church itself to refer to its Eastern compatriots for centuries, and only recently acquired a supposedly-pejorative meaning. That in itself is odd to me, because you know what also had a pejorative meaning, originally? "Roman Catholic", when it was being used by Protestants to smear the adherents of Rome in Europe during the Reformation! And yet you hardly ever see self-described Roman Catholics saying that this is inappropriate.

So for someone outside of that communion, even if they want to use the right term it can be hard to know in advance what should be used, because you cab have a term that one group uses proudly as a descriptor but another group of the same communion thinks is a horrible offense and should never be used. I realize that rites are not churches, but there are enough examples within the Roman communion of a church being established from a section of a much older Orthodox church, thereby making the rite that they bring with them (or whatever modification thereof that they use) unique to that church, that I think this particular error should be forgiven. In some cases, the new Rome-affiliated churches even come with newly minted ethnicities or at least ethnoreligious identities (e.g., Chaldean, Maronite), making the situation even more confusing for the outsider.
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« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2012, 03:42:34 PM »

I'm a bit confused on this issue myself. I am currently under moderation for using a certain term which I was unaware is not allowed here (hence, I completely accept the moderation, and am not meaning this post as a challenge to the moderators...just FYI Grin), but which has been historically used without prejudice by the Roman Church itself to refer to its Eastern compatriots for centuries, and only recently acquired a supposedly-pejorative meaning. That in itself is odd to me, because you know what also had a pejorative meaning, originally? "Roman Catholic", when it was being used by Protestants to smear the adherents of Rome in Europe during the Reformation! And yet you hardly ever see self-described Roman Catholics saying that this is inappropriate.

So for someone outside of that communion, even if they want to use the right term it can be hard to know in advance what should be used, because you cab have a term that one group uses proudly as a descriptor but another group of the same communion thinks is a horrible offense and should never be used. I realize that rites are not churches, but there are enough examples within the Roman communion of a church being established from a section of a much older Orthodox church, thereby making the rite that they bring with them (or whatever modification thereof that they use) unique to that church, that I think this particular error should be forgiven. In some cases, the new Rome-affiliated churches even come with newly minted ethnicities or at least ethnoreligious identities (e.g., Chaldean, Maronite), making the situation even more confusing for the outsider.
And such is the nature of Apostolic Christianity.
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« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2012, 03:57:18 PM »

Uh huh.

I forgot how latter-day sheep-stealing and making up ethnicities out of thin air was part of Apostolic Christianity. My mistake.
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« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2012, 05:16:54 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.

There is no Latin Rite but the Roman Rite and its various Uses, the Ambrosian Rite, and the Mozarabic Rite which are used by the Latin Catholic Church and have Latin as their mother liturgical language.
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« Reply #127 on: December 05, 2012, 05:38:13 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.

There is no Latin Rite but the Roman Rite and its various Uses, the Ambrosian Rite, and the Mozarabic Rite which are used by the Latin Catholic Church and have Latin as their mother liturgical language.

Among the many Vatican documents, Pope John Paul II refers to the West in Orientale Lumen as "Catholics of the Latin tradition".  And tradition=Rite.
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« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2012, 11:05:49 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.

Don't get me wrong, "Roman" and "Latin" are perfectly correct terms. The problem is only when people mix up "Rite" and "Church", and talk about "the Latin Rite" and "the Roman Church", instead of "the Latin Church" and "the Roman Rite". (Or, likewise, "the Melkite Rite" and other such errors.)
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« Reply #129 on: December 05, 2012, 11:06:54 PM »

In some cases, the new Rome-affiliated churches even come with newly minted ethnicities or at least ethnoreligious identities (e.g., Chaldean, Maronite), making the situation even more confusing for the outsider.

I'm sure Abraham would agree with you.
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« Reply #130 on: December 05, 2012, 11:11:49 PM »

I realize that rites are not churches, but there are enough examples within the Roman communion of a church being established from a section of a much older Orthodox church, thereby making the rite that they bring with them (or whatever modification thereof that they use) unique to that church, that I think this particular error should be forgiven.

Well yes, the error is understandable, but we should still encourage proper usage.

(Incidentally, I can remember some conversations I was in (I won't say where, but some here can probably guess) in which poster(s) were actually informed of their mistake and then flatly refused to stop referring to EC Churches as "Rites".)
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« Reply #131 on: December 05, 2012, 11:14:51 PM »

RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics. 
This is what I've been exposed to as well, and I probably would've made the "Latin Rite" mistake as a result of it.
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« Reply #132 on: December 06, 2012, 12:03:05 AM »

In some cases, the new Rome-affiliated churches even come with newly minted ethnicities or at least ethnoreligious identities (e.g., Chaldean, Maronite), making the situation even more confusing for the outsider.

I'm sure Abraham would agree with you.

Now Abraham was a member of the Chaldean Church, too? Kind of amazing, considering how anachronistic it is to identify a person who supposedly (not conclusively) hailed from Ur of the Chaldees (presumably the Sumerian city of Ur) some thousands of years before the existence of the Chaldean Church -- which is a subsection of the preexisting Church of the East which entered into union with Rome in the 16th century following a succession dispute within the CoE -- with the people who claim to be "Chaldeans" today. Proof of the "Chaldeans" Syriac origins lie in the form of their liturgy, and their language, which essentially the dialect of Neo-Aramaic spoken in Alqosh, the first city whose inhabitants accepted Vatican rule. By contrast, Sumerian is a language isolate. (Also, geographically, Tel al-Muqayyar, which roughly corresponds to the location of Ur, is pretty far south from Alqosh, or Baqofa, or the other "Chaldean" towns of the far north of Iraq.)

Geez...pretty soon we'll wake up tomorrow to find that the Vatican invented gravity, created the sun, etc. So many things are taken up by Rome, and they're all 100% accurate, and never a manipulation of preexisting situations in order to bring more people into the Vatican fold.
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« Reply #133 on: December 06, 2012, 12:05:58 AM »

Or, we'll just get tired of hearing your old rants again.

Reading threads like this, I wonder why I wasted the last three years of my life.

  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2012, 12:20:15 AM »

Hmmm. I might have asked myself something similar at one point upon leaving the Roman communion. You and I are not so different in that way, Biro. Smiley
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