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Author Topic: Why are Roman Catholics Always Trying to Jack our Swag?  (Read 4921 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2012, 12:26:28 PM »

I really do feel bad for you James, if you have to endure the horrible experience of Catholics saying we have a lot in common. There is nothing worse than a Catholic who points out all the things that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common. In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

I don't think invented differences are necessary. The ones that truly exist are more than enough, namely:

Ecclesiomorphology (yes, I just made that up), the form of the governance of the Church: Monarchical (RC), Autonomous (Protestants and Non-Chalcedoneans), Federative or Confederative (Orthodox);

Governance of the Holy Spirit: It is related to Ecclesiomorphology but it is a different subject. Basically I think that we all can agree that only the Holy Spirit is infallible per se. RC will claim that the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope and the Pope only with this infallibility in issues of dogma and morality (to say it is not exclusive to the Pope is to beg the very question of papal infallibility). Protestants will say His infallibility was exercized once in the making of the Bible only, thus the innerrancy of the Bible. Infallibility was never an issue for the Orthodox, but I notice to trends: an assumption that Ecumencial councils are infallible, and another that there is no element of the Church which may be the exclusive channel of the Holy Spirit's infallible actons and decisions (which I believe to be the case).
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« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2012, 12:26:58 PM »

There are others, but I believe it is these two that are the real blockers for union.
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« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2012, 12:29:24 PM »

I really do feel bad for you James, if you have to endure the horrible experience of Catholics saying we have a lot in common. There is nothing worse than a Catholic who points out all the things that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common. In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

I don't think invented differences are necessary. The ones that truly exist are more than enough, namely:

Ecclesiomorphology (yes, I just made that up), the form of the governance of the Church: Monarchical (RC), Autonomous (Protestants and Non-Chalcedoneans), Federative or Confederative (Orthodox);

Governance of the Holy Spirit: It is related to Ecclesiomorphology but it is a different subject. Basically I think that we all can agree that only the Holy Spirit is infallible per se. RC will claim that the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope and the Pope only with this infallibility in issues of dogma and morality (to say it is not exclusive to the Pope is to beg the very question of papal infallibility). Protestants will say His infallibility was exercized once in the making of the Bible only, thus the innerrancy of the Bible. Infallibility was never an issue for the Orthodox, but I notice to trends: an assumption that Ecumencial councils are infallible, and another that there is no element of the Church which may be the exclusive channel of the Holy Spirit's infallible actons and decisions (which I believe to be the case).
I agree that there are differences. For example, you guys stopped believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception. But the point is that the OP is simply complaining for complaining's sake. Yes, there are differences, real differences, but that doesn't mean that Catholics who recognize the many, many, many similarities are simply idiots.
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« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2012, 12:34:34 PM »

I really do feel bad for you James, if you have to endure the horrible experience of Catholics saying we have a lot in common. There is nothing worse than a Catholic who points out all the things that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common. In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

I don't think invented differences are necessary. The ones that truly exist are more than enough, namely:

Ecclesiomorphology (yes, I just made that up), the form of the governance of the Church: Monarchical (RC), Autonomous (Protestants and Non-Chalcedoneans), Federative or Confederative (Orthodox);

Governance of the Holy Spirit: It is related to Ecclesiomorphology but it is a different subject. Basically I think that we all can agree that only the Holy Spirit is infallible per se. RC will claim that the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope and the Pope only with this infallibility in issues of dogma and morality (to say it is not exclusive to the Pope is to beg the very question of papal infallibility). Protestants will say His infallibility was exercized once in the making of the Bible only, thus the innerrancy of the Bible. Infallibility was never an issue for the Orthodox, but I notice to trends: an assumption that Ecumencial councils are infallible, and another that there is no element of the Church which may be the exclusive channel of the Holy Spirit's infallible actons and decisions (which I believe to be the case).
I agree that there are differences. For example, you guys stopped believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception. But the point is that the OP is simply complaining for complaining's sake. Yes, there are differences, real differences, but that doesn't mean that Catholics who recognize the many, many, many similarities are simply idiots.

Surely, you jest?!?!
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« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2012, 12:47:42 PM »

I really do feel bad for you James, if you have to endure the horrible experience of Catholics saying we have a lot in common. There is nothing worse than a Catholic who points out all the things that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common. In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

I don't think invented differences are necessary. The ones that truly exist are more than enough, namely:

Ecclesiomorphology (yes, I just made that up), the form of the governance of the Church: Monarchical (RC), Autonomous (Protestants and Non-Chalcedoneans), Federative or Confederative (Orthodox);

Governance of the Holy Spirit: It is related to Ecclesiomorphology but it is a different subject. Basically I think that we all can agree that only the Holy Spirit is infallible per se. RC will claim that the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope and the Pope only with this infallibility in issues of dogma and morality (to say it is not exclusive to the Pope is to beg the very question of papal infallibility). Protestants will say His infallibility was exercized once in the making of the Bible only, thus the innerrancy of the Bible. Infallibility was never an issue for the Orthodox, but I notice to trends: an assumption that Ecumencial councils are infallible, and another that there is no element of the Church which may be the exclusive channel of the Holy Spirit's infallible actons and decisions (which I believe to be the case).
I agree that there are differences. For example, you guys stopped believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception. But the point is that the OP is simply complaining for complaining's sake. Yes, there are differences, real differences, but that doesn't mean that Catholics who recognize the many, many, many similarities are simply idiots.

Surely, you jest?!?!
No he doesn't and his name is not "Shirley". Wink
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« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2012, 01:10:24 PM »

In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

+1

JamesR, did you mention the azymes to them yet?
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« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2012, 02:34:14 PM »

There are others, but I believe it is these two that are the real blockers for union.
Filioque doesn't count as a blocker? Basically, we'd somehow have to cancel Lyons and Florence as well as Vatican I, or you accept "the Father and Son together are the one principle of the Spirit". Given the current situation, the former is just slightly less impossible than the latter.  Wink
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« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2012, 02:37:39 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?

If you don't like that, try going to an SSPX chapel and tell everyone you're Orthodox.  Let's see where that gets you.
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« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2012, 02:44:11 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?

If you don't like that, try going to an SSPX chapel and tell everyone you're Orthodox.  Let's see where that gets you.

And please record it and upload it to youtube. I want to see what happens.
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« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2012, 02:44:45 PM »

Filioque is theologically solved in my opinion. RCatholics are very clear in explaining that what they want to say with it is not causationg in the Son, but the economic sending of the Holy Spirit to the World by the Son.

What remains is related precisely with the governance of the Church. The Roman Church is not fixing the Creed because they do believe they have the prerrogative of changing it unilaterily if the Pope so wishes, despite the fact that this approach goes against the very concept of Catholic authority.

Once the governance issue is theologically and formally solved, it will be just a matter of deciding if the filioque is altogether dropped - for, despite the intended meaning, in that particular context it cannot mean anything but causation - or if something equivalent to "and to the world through the Son" to better clarify what is meant.


There are others, but I believe it is these two that are the real blockers for union.
Filioque doesn't count as a blocker? Basically, we'd somehow have to cancel Lyons and Florence as well as Vatican I, or you accept "the Father and Son together are the one principle of the Spirit". Given the current situation, the former is just slightly less impossible than the latter.  Wink
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« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2012, 02:50:38 PM »

LOL @ thread title.
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« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2012, 02:56:06 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?

If you don't like that, try going to an SSPX chapel and tell everyone you're Orthodox.  Let's see where that gets you.

And please record it and upload it to youtube. I want to see what happens.

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel
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« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2012, 03:00:33 PM »

I really do feel bad for you James, if you have to endure the horrible experience of Catholics saying we have a lot in common. There is nothing worse than a Catholic who points out all the things that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common. In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

I don't think invented differences are necessary. The ones that truly exist are more than enough, namely:

Ecclesiomorphology (yes, I just made that up), the form of the governance of the Church: Monarchical (RC), Autonomous (Protestants and Non-Chalcedoneans), Federative or Confederative (Orthodox);

Governance of the Holy Spirit: It is related to Ecclesiomorphology but it is a different subject. Basically I think that we all can agree that only the Holy Spirit is infallible per se. RC will claim that the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope and the Pope only with this infallibility in issues of dogma and morality (to say it is not exclusive to the Pope is to beg the very question of papal infallibility). Protestants will say His infallibility was exercized once in the making of the Bible only, thus the innerrancy of the Bible. Infallibility was never an issue for the Orthodox, but I notice to trends: an assumption that Ecumencial councils are infallible, and another that there is no element of the Church which may be the exclusive channel of the Holy Spirit's infallible actons and decisions (which I believe to be the case).
I agree that there are differences. For example, you guys stopped believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception. But the point is that the OP is simply complaining for complaining's sake. Yes, there are differences, real differences, but that doesn't mean that Catholics who recognize the many, many, many similarities are simply idiots.

You're kidding, right?
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« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2012, 03:09:01 PM »

No, he's serious.
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« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2012, 03:10:53 PM »

I agree that there are differences. For example, you guys stopped believing in the papacy

Bite your tongue. Grin
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« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2012, 03:20:05 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?

If you don't like that, try going to an SSPX chapel and tell everyone you're Orthodox.  Let's see where that gets you.

And please record it and upload it to youtube. I want to see what happens.

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel
Why you Lefebvre-ites have some nerve.  Wink
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« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2012, 03:21:38 PM »

I found out recently that there's an SSPX chapel in walking distance from where I live. Tell me #1Sinner, how good's the food at the SSPX?  Tongue
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« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2012, 05:18:18 PM »

Really? That's not what the Second Council of Lyons said:
"We profess faithfully and devotedly that the holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle; not by two spirations, but by one single spiration. This the holy Roman church, mother and mistress of all the faithful, has till now professed, preached and taught; this she firmly holds, preaches, professes and teaches; this is the unchangeable and true belief of the orthodox fathers and doctors, Latin and Greek alike. But because some, on account of ignorance of the said indisputable truth, have fallen into various errors, we, wishing to close the way to such errors, with the approval of the sacred council, condemn and reprove all who presume to deny that the holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, or rashly to assert that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from two principles and not as from one."

And Florence made it even clearer:
"In the name of the holy Trinity, Father, Son and holy Spirit, we define, with the approval of this holy universal council of Florence, that the following truth of faith shall be believed and accepted by all Christians and thus shall all profess it: that the holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration. We declare that when holy doctors and fathers say that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, this bears the sense that thereby also the Son should be signified, according to the Greeks indeed as cause, and according to the Latins as principle of the subsistence of the holy Spirit, just like the Father."

This is what was taught up until these days. I don't see the wiggle room to say it's only an economic sending in time without denying that the Councils say what they say. I wonder what RCs you might mean?

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead. If it's not a heresy (and I'm not convinced it is), then it still didn't need to be added to the Creed.

Filioque is theologically solved in my opinion. RCatholics are very clear in explaining that what they want to say with it is not causationg in the Son, but the economic sending of the Holy Spirit to the World by the Son.

What remains is related precisely with the governance of the Church. The Roman Church is not fixing the Creed because they do believe they have the prerrogative of changing it unilaterily if the Pope so wishes, despite the fact that this approach goes against the very concept of Catholic authority.

Once the governance issue is theologically and formally solved, it will be just a matter of deciding if the filioque is altogether dropped - for, despite the intended meaning, in that particular context it cannot mean anything but causation - or if something equivalent to "and to the world through the Son" to better clarify what is meant.


There are others, but I believe it is these two that are the real blockers for union.
Filioque doesn't count as a blocker? Basically, we'd somehow have to cancel Lyons and Florence as well as Vatican I, or you accept "the Father and Son together are the one principle of the Spirit". Given the current situation, the former is just slightly less impossible than the latter.  Wink
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« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2012, 05:27:03 PM »

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead.

Well, what are you waiting for?   Wink

EDIT: I never fully understood what is meant by the "as one principle" clause. Can anyone enlighten me?
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« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2012, 05:37:44 PM »

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead.

Well, what are you waiting for?   Wink

EDIT: I never fully understood what is meant by the "as one principle" clause. Can anyone enlighten me?
It is intended as a way of avoiding the notion that there are two principles of origin for the Holy Spirit, which in Eastern Orthodox theology would involve the idea that there are really two Gods.
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« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2012, 06:01:43 PM »

I know that, but "as from one principle" thing sounds a little bit like modalism to me.
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« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2012, 06:24:21 PM »

I know that, but "as from one principle" thing sounds a little bit like modalism to me.
Yes, that is a common Eastern Orthodox response, because according to the Eastern Fathers the Spirit proceeds (ἐκπόρευσις), that is, He takes His origin, from the person of God the Father.  So to speak about the Father and the Son as "one principle" in the spiration of the Holy Spirit has Sabellian overtones, which are clearly unacceptable in Eastern Triadology.
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« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2012, 07:13:28 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '
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« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2012, 07:15:00 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry
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« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2012, 07:18:43 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '


Substitute the word 'Orthodox' in there and you've got exactly what others have told me about their church on this very site.

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« Reply #70 on: December 03, 2012, 07:50:09 PM »

The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met.

You mean to tell me that you believe Catholics are worse about something than even Protestants?! This is serious.
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« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2012, 08:10:21 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '


So what heresies does the Orthodox Chuch hold, according to this bishop?
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« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2012, 08:24:13 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '


So what heresies does the Orthodox Chuch hold, according to this bishop?

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #73 on: December 03, 2012, 09:00:06 PM »

Swag is what I like to smoke Shocked

Isn't that sCHwag not swag? It's been a while since I delt with those terms

OH YEAH  Cool
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« Reply #74 on: December 03, 2012, 11:26:57 PM »

It's true. I went to an OCA church this afternoon for lunch and I totally jacked all their baked mac n cheese. Plus half a bottle of zinfandel and 3 brochures about Orthodoxy. Sweet swag!!

mac and cheese during nativity fast for lunch?  What kind of example is this OCA parish setting? What would Heterodox Herman have to say?
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« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2012, 11:38:53 PM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
not in this neck of the woods.  and there's a real question on your numbers in your stronghold (at least formerly) of Latin America.
Whatever we might have lost there, we've more than made up for it on the African continent. And the Far East.

Ah outsourcing religion..
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« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2012, 11:42:54 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry

I have no idea why the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church calls itself "Byzantine Catholic" when in Presov everyone calls it Greek Catholic.  And I wouldn't like to see it razed especially if you make great nutroll and pierogies.
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« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2012, 11:44:25 PM »

Truth is that there is a certain kind of ecumenists who want to force union through a "ex post facto" strategy, that is, we will simply act as if we were already united - because the differences are "irrelevant" - and the lot of you gotta deal with it after it is already happening in fact. They know that study and conversation would forbid that, so let's just "skip" all this bureaucracy.

The "we are not that different at all" discourse is what fundaments and prepare people for this "ex post facto" union.

Sounds like the EO and OO situation in North America. Communion is already being given to OO at EO chalices without conversion or chrismation.
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« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2012, 12:31:05 AM »

I have no idea why the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church calls itself "Byzantine Catholic" when in Presov everyone calls it Greek Catholic.  And I wouldn't like to see it razed especially if you make great nutroll and pierogies.

I know it used to have that other name, but that was before my time. And as a proud member of the Baby Boomer generation, anything that existed before I was born is totally irrelevant.  Grin

I found our church's "secret recipe book" for their special pierogies, while cleaning out the parish hall for the rummage sale last year. As soon as I figure out how to make it for two, instead of two hundred, I'll try to surprise my hubby with it.  Cool
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« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2012, 12:55:48 AM »

I have no idea why the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church calls itself "Byzantine Catholic" when in Presov everyone calls it Greek Catholic.  And I wouldn't like to see it razed especially if you make great nutroll and pierogies.

I know it used to have that other name, but that was before my time. And as a proud member of the Baby Boomer generation, anything that existed before I was born is totally irrelevant.  Grin

I found our church's "secret recipe book" for their special pierogies, while cleaning out the parish hall for the rummage sale last year. As soon as I figure out how to make it for two, instead of two hundred, I'll try to surprise my hubby with it.  Cool

Send me some! The three I get to eat a year at the parish ethnic festival aren't enough.
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« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2012, 08:21:18 AM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry

I must take exception to this. While there is a certain suspicion of Eastern Catholics among some Latin traditionalists, this is wreckless language which serves no purpose.

The suspicions come mainly from the fact that at least a few Eastern Catholics feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church. Dogmas such as Papal Infallibility are NOT up for debate if you call yourself Catholic. This is why I have not considered Eastern Catholicism in my journey to Orthodoxy. It would be dishonest to call myself a Catholic and thumb my nose at Catholic dogma.

Personally I find the whole "Unia" experiment to be a colossal failure, both for Catholics and Orthodox alike.



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« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2012, 10:57:41 AM »

There are a lot of Western Catholics who "feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church" too.

Are you ready to judge all of Western Catholicism a failure because of those individuals as well? That would seem only fair.

(Oh wait, you're in the OCA. I thought you were in the SSPX. So I already know the answer to that - it's exactly the same answer. Which would actually prove my point, I think, but never mind! lol!) Roll Eyes  Grin
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« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2012, 11:00:42 AM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry

I must take exception to this. While there is a certain suspicion of Eastern Catholics among some Latin traditionalists, this is wreckless language which serves no purpose.

The suspicions come mainly from the fact that at least a few Eastern Catholics feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church. Dogmas such as Papal Infallibility are NOT up for debate if you call yourself Catholic. This is why I have not considered Eastern Catholicism in my journey to Orthodoxy. It would be dishonest to call myself a Catholic and thumb my nose at Catholic dogma.

Personally I find the whole "Unia" experiment to be a colossal failure, both for Catholics and Orthodox alike.




For quite a few people, Eastern Catholicism does not invovle denying Catholic dogmas such as the Papacy or the Immaculate Conception.
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« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2012, 11:02:10 AM »

I have no idea why the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church calls itself "Byzantine Catholic" when in Presov everyone calls it Greek Catholic.  And I wouldn't like to see it razed especially if you make great nutroll and pierogies.

I know it used to have that other name, but that was before my time. And as a proud member of the Baby Boomer generation, anything that existed before I was born is totally irrelevant.  Grin

I found our church's "secret recipe book" for their special pierogies, while cleaning out the parish hall for the rummage sale last year. As soon as I figure out how to make it for two, instead of two hundred, I'll try to surprise my hubby with it.  Cool

Send me some! The three I get to eat a year at the parish ethnic festival aren't enough.

We are getting a whole freezerful of them from a church in Fontana, CA this weekend!  Cool
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« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2012, 11:16:18 AM »

There are a lot of Western Catholics who "feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church" too.

Are you ready to judge all of Western Catholicism a failure because of those individuals as well? That would seem only fair.

(Oh wait, you're in the OCA. I thought you were in the SSPX. So I already know the answer to that - it's exactly the same answer. Which would actually prove my point, I think, but never mind! lol!) Roll Eyes  Grin

I am well aware that a lot of Latin Rite Catholics thumb their nose at official papal teaching as well. They are no more Catholic then Eastern Catholics who disregard the dogma of papal infallibility. There can be no real unity without unity of Faith.

A lot of Byzantine Catholics like to pretend that papal pronouncements don't apply to them in matters of dogma. This is not true. All Catholics are bound to believe that the pope has absolute and immediate jurisdiction over the entire Church and that when speaking ex cathedra in matters of Faith and Morals, he cannot err. Eastern Catholics are also bound to hold that the Filioque is sound theology even if not required to profess it in the Creed. The failure of Uniatism lies in the seeking to reconcile two irreconcilable positions. It actually does a disservice to Eastern Catholics in that they are really just Roman Catholics in Orthodox garb.

I recently heard an interview with a Melkite priest on Ancient Faith radio in that he basically agreed with every Orthodox position regarding all the controversial issues. I kept wondering while listening to this: why not just become Orthodox? What real unity exists between the Church of Rome and the Eastern Sui Iuris Churches if they agree not on doctrine?

I am currently journeying from SSPX to OCA. I have not made the move official as of yet.
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« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2012, 11:20:25 AM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry

I must take exception to this. While there is a certain suspicion of Eastern Catholics among some Latin traditionalists, this is wreckless language which serves no purpose.

The suspicions come mainly from the fact that at least a few Eastern Catholics feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church. Dogmas such as Papal Infallibility are NOT up for debate if you call yourself Catholic. This is why I have not considered Eastern Catholicism in my journey to Orthodoxy. It would be dishonest to call myself a Catholic and thumb my nose at Catholic dogma.

Personally I find the whole "Unia" experiment to be a colossal failure, both for Catholics and Orthodox alike.




For quite a few people, Eastern Catholicism does not invovle denying Catholic dogmas such as the Papacy or the Immaculate Conception.

True. That is the proper and correct Catholic belief. I have had much experience with Eastern Catholicism and that appears to be the minority opinion, however.
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« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2012, 11:33:53 AM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry

I must take exception to this. While there is a certain suspicion of Eastern Catholics among some Latin traditionalists, this is wreckless language which serves no purpose.

The suspicions come mainly from the fact that at least a few Eastern Catholics feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church. Dogmas such as Papal Infallibility are NOT up for debate if you call yourself Catholic. This is why I have not considered Eastern Catholicism in my journey to Orthodoxy. It would be dishonest to call myself a Catholic and thumb my nose at Catholic dogma.

Personally I find the whole "Unia" experiment to be a colossal failure, both for Catholics and Orthodox alike.




For quite a few people, Eastern Catholicism does not invovle denying Catholic dogmas such as the Papacy or the Immaculate Conception.

True. That is the proper and correct Catholic belief. I have had much experience with Eastern Catholicism and that appears to be the minority opinion, however.
Interesting. Here is what my experience has been. At the Byzantine Catholic parish here in Albuquerque, the vast majority of the parishoners accept the teachings of the Church which include the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception, etc.
On the internets, on the other hand, most of the Eastern Catholics I have encountered reject things like the Papacy and the Immaculate Conception. I think that just like there are Netodox, there are analogous Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2012, 12:04:55 PM »

For quite a few people, Eastern Catholicism does not invovle denying Catholic dogmas such as the Papacy or the Immaculate Conception.

Nonsense!  That is what Eastern Catholicism is all about!  We get to play "dress-up Orthodox" and still go to Mass with our mums and receive Communion there!
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« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2012, 12:07:15 PM »

Really, choy? :-(
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« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2012, 12:13:13 PM »

Really, choy? :-(

Don't be so serious Wink
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