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Author Topic: Why are Roman Catholics Always Trying to Jack our Swag?  (Read 4579 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 02, 2012, 07:03:53 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?
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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2012, 07:06:02 PM »

Aren't friendly Catholics better than the Fortescue type of Catholics?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 07:06:14 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2012, 07:09:05 PM »

I would be happy to give my opinion on the questions asked in the OP... once I figure out what the title means  Cool
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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2012, 07:39:38 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

I'd rather have that sort of Roman Catholic than an ultra trad that believes we're condemned to hellfire.

And non-denominationals are doctrinally Protestant (or some derivative), so of course they're less inclined to act like we're just the same - Orthodox are idolatrous with their cave paintings, after all. Wink
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 07:40:10 PM by Nephi » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2012, 07:43:38 PM »

Don't worry...I'm an RC and I don't feel ecumenical toward the EO. I used to a bit, but this forum brought me out of that. There are real differences that separate us.
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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2012, 08:15:52 PM »

It's true. I went to an OCA church this afternoon for lunch and I totally jacked all their baked mac n cheese. Plus half a bottle of zinfandel and 3 brochures about Orthodoxy. Sweet swag!!
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2012, 08:22:57 PM »

No one on the corner has swagger like Orthodoxy, swagger like Orthodoxy........  laugh
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2012, 08:46:09 PM »

Swag is what I like to smoke Shocked
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2012, 09:22:11 PM »

Re: James' OP. Can I get a finger snap and a "Child, please!"??

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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2012, 09:24:27 PM »

Swag is what I like to smoke Shocked

Isn't that sCHwag not swag? It's been a while since I delt with those terms
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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2012, 09:51:21 PM »


They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Best description of the situation I ever heard.

The issue is that this is the non-official official discourse these days, even among some Orthodox. Here in Brazil, with the exception of the Russians, it's the rule of the line "the only difference is the filioque and pope, and even that is just a lame excuse for politics, but we're so loving and past that". It's common that anyone take communion - *anyone*, in some cases not even being a Christian.

Truth is that there is a certain kind of ecumenists who want to force union through a "ex post facto" strategy, that is, we will simply act as if we were already united - because the differences are "irrelevant" - and the lot of you gotta deal with it after it is already happening in fact. They know that study and conversation would forbid that, so let's just "skip" all this bureaucracy.

The "we are not that different at all" discourse is what fundaments and prepare people for this "ex post facto" union. The priests and lay people - Roman or Orthodox - who raise their hand to say it's wrong will be treated as evil unloving medievals because "everybody knows we're not that different".

Traditional schismastics think we are going to hell because they can't see what is common. Ecumenists think nobody is going to hell because they can't see what is different. I don't want any of these two schools.

Just on a sidenote, I do suppose that this discourse is an attempt at social engineering by some hierarchs and intellectuals in both sides.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 09:56:30 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2012, 10:02:18 PM »

Is there a middle ground consisting of people who know the differences are serious but want to keep the lines of communication open for charity's sake?
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« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2012, 10:15:35 PM »

I know exactly what you mean, the only difference is that when I tell them I'm an old calendarist they either have no idea what I'm talking about or assume that I'm a matthewite and that I hate them or something and slowly back away.  I just don't understand anything in the RCs anymore...

Also, swag=Secretly We Are Gay... Just saying
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« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2012, 10:21:19 PM »

1.    swag   
Orginally from the Scottish slang word "swagger" which was a description of the way some Scots walk (in a swaying motion), the word was then misinterpreted by the English as "the way someone presents themselves". Eg, whether someone looks cool.
The word quickly made its way to the states and has ever since become the catchphrase of I have no words to substitute what you wrote which was in clear violation of ethics and oc.net rules. -username! section moderator
Person 1: "I think that guy off Jersey Shore has swag"

swag1   [swag]  Show IPA noun, verb, swagged, swag·ging.
noun
1.
a suspended wreath, garland, drapery, or the like, fastened up at or near each end and hanging down in the middle; festoon.
2.
a wreath, spray, or cluster of foliage, flowers, or fruit.
3.
a festoon, especially one very heavy toward the center.
4.
a swale.
5.
a swaying or lurching movement.
verb (used without object)
6.
to move heavily or unsteadily from side to side or up and down; sway.
7.
to hang loosely and heavily; sink down.

Know your Meme website:
“Swag” is an internet slang term often found in comments, discussion forums and image macros used as a synonym for “swagger,” a type of style or presence that exudes confidence and is sometimes interpreted as arrogance.

I know exactly what you mean, the only difference is that when I tell them I'm an old calendarist they either have no idea what I'm talking about or assume that I'm a matthewite and that I hate them or something and slowly back away.  I just don't understand anything in the RCs anymore...

Also, swag=Secretly We Are Gay... Just saying
You are hereby officially warned for 40 days per language. You ought to know better than to use foul language like that on a Christian forum.  If you feel you have not used curse words and that your mother would be totally happy with you using said language in front of your bishop then feel free to appeal it to the higher ups. -username! section moderator.  Also you can not copy and paste something without the link.  You have 24 hours to provide the link for the above definition or you will be placed on post moderation. 
 You were asked here to provide a link for the definition of swag you used.  You didn't comply to the 24hour request.  That was two violations in one post.  Welcome to 2 weeks post moderation. -username! Section moderator.
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« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2012, 10:24:18 PM »

and by "jack" I suppose it's hijack.

Translating from "Adolescenteese" to English the title of the thread could be

"Why are Roman Catholics always trying to act as if they had the same traits and characteristics that make us unique and special and as if we were the same thing?" hence the very proper comparison with the kid who wants to hang with the cooller older boys but has absolutely nothing to do with them, clueless about his own identity.
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« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2012, 10:26:51 PM »

I know exactly what you mean, the only difference is that when I tell them I'm an old calendarist they either have no idea what I'm talking about or assume that I'm a matthewite

So what jurisdiction are you?
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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 10:33:26 PM »

James, high quality OP.
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« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 10:43:50 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?
One of my really good friends is Roman Catholic, but he acts like a Protestant. He says we "are the same" too, and look we can partake of their eucharist as well.

Their eccelsiology is kinda screwed up.
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« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 10:44:16 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?
Speak for yourself Schismatic..........how's that better?  Grin
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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 10:44:42 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?
Speak for yourself Schismatic..........how's that better?  Grin
That's a first.
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2012, 10:45:39 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?
One of my really good friends is Roman Catholic, but he acts like a Protestant. He says we "are the same" too, and look we can partake of their eucharist as well.
Their eccelsiology is kinda screwed up.
No, not really.
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« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2012, 10:48:31 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?
One of my really good friends is Roman Catholic, but he acts like a Protestant. He says we "are the same" too, and look we can partake of their eucharist as well.
Their eccelsiology is kinda screwed up.
No, not really.
We can't?

Quote
However, there are circumstances when non-Catholics may receive Communion from a Catholic priest. This is especially the case when it comes to Eastern Orthodox Christians, who share the same faith concerning the nature of the sacraments:

"Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full Communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned" (CIC 844 § 3).
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/who-can-receive-communion
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« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2012, 10:50:53 PM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
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« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2012, 10:52:06 PM »

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.

He means in the United States, I'm pretty sure.
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« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2012, 10:52:54 PM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
not in this neck of the woods.  and there's a real question on your numbers in your stronghold (at least formerly) of Latin America.
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« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2012, 10:53:28 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?
One of my really good friends is Roman Catholic, but he acts like a Protestant. He says we "are the same" too, and look we can partake of their eucharist as well.
Their eccelsiology is kinda screwed up.
No, not really.
We can't?

Quote
However, there are circumstances when non-Catholics may receive Communion from a Catholic priest. This is especially the case when it comes to Eastern Orthodox Christians, who share the same faith concerning the nature of the sacraments:

"Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full Communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned" (CIC 844 § 3).
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/who-can-receive-communion
That's the Vatican's story. We don't buy it.
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« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2012, 10:56:46 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?
One of my really good friends is Roman Catholic, but he acts like a Protestant. He says we "are the same" too, and look we can partake of their eucharist as well.
Their eccelsiology is kinda screwed up.
No, not really.
We can't?

Quote
However, there are circumstances when non-Catholics may receive Communion from a Catholic priest. This is especially the case when it comes to Eastern Orthodox Christians, who share the same faith concerning the nature of the sacraments:

"Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full Communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned" (CIC 844 § 3).
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/who-can-receive-communion
That's the Vatican's story. We don't buy it.
I know.
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« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2012, 10:58:08 PM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
not in this neck of the woods.  and there's a real question on your numbers in your stronghold (at least formerly) of Latin America.
Whatever we might have lost there, we've more than made up for it on the African continent. And the Far East.
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« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2012, 10:59:21 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?
One of my really good friends is Roman Catholic, but he acts like a Protestant. He says we "are the same" too, and look we can partake of their eucharist as well.
Their eccelsiology is kinda screwed up.
No, not really.
We can't?

Quote
However, there are circumstances when non-Catholics may receive Communion from a Catholic priest. This is especially the case when it comes to Eastern Orthodox Christians, who share the same faith concerning the nature of the sacraments:

"Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full Communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned" (CIC 844 § 3).
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/who-can-receive-communion
That's the Vatican's story. We don't buy it.
Post Vatican II drivel that is.
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« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2012, 11:01:51 PM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
not in this neck of the woods.  and there's a real question on your numbers in your stronghold (at least formerly) of Latin America.
Whatever we might have lost there, we've more than made up for it on the African continent. And the Far East.

If the measure of the truth of a faith depended on numbers, we would all be Arians.  police
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« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2012, 11:04:08 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?
One of my really good friends is Roman Catholic, but he acts like a Protestant. He says we "are the same" too, and look we can partake of their eucharist as well.
Their eccelsiology is kinda screwed up.
No, not really.
We can't?

Quote
However, there are circumstances when non-Catholics may receive Communion from a Catholic priest. This is especially the case when it comes to Eastern Orthodox Christians, who share the same faith concerning the nature of the sacraments:

"Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full Communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned" (CIC 844 § 3).
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/who-can-receive-communion
That's the Vatican's story. We don't buy it.
Post Vatican II drivel that is.
LOL.
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« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2012, 11:25:25 PM »

I know exactly what you mean, the only difference is that when I tell them I'm an old calendarist they either have no idea what I'm talking about or assume that I'm a matthewite

So what jurisdiction are you?
HOTCA
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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2012, 11:26:35 PM »

I know exactly what you mean, the only difference is that when I tell them I'm an old calendarist they either have no idea what I'm talking about or assume that I'm a matthewite

So what jurisdiction are you?
HOTCA

Makes difference.
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« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2012, 12:19:22 AM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.

Yeah, yeah...calm down there, Yertle. You're safe today, no doubt. Enjoy it while it lasts.

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Edit to JamesR: They act like that and say those things because they believe it, because that's the RC line; "We have nearly everything in common...", as one of their encyclicals said. I don't see it, but then I left that behind some time ago, so of course I wouldn't see it that way. Personally, I can't really imagine two more dissimilar churches, but hey...~450 (or ~1054) years of history isn't nothing, so it'd probably be best to use those times when you're annoyed at your RC friends' assertions to explain to them the Orthodox viewpoint on these matters. If you don't, maybe they'll never hear it and continue to believe the Vatican when they say that we're like two peas in a pod.

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« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2012, 12:21:49 AM »

I know exactly what you mean, the only difference is that when I tell them I'm an old calendarist they either have no idea what I'm talking about or assume that I'm a matthewite

So what jurisdiction are you?
HOTCA

Makes difference.

I went to the HOTCA web site.  Are they considered Orthodox by most Orthodox?  It appears there are some disagreements between them and the (official?) Greek Orthodox.  I get a little muddled when trying to figure out which Churches commune with which other Churches.
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« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2012, 12:26:09 AM »

HOTCA is not in communion with any world Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2012, 12:29:55 AM »

Speak for yourself Schismatic..........how's that better?  Grin

<3 I love you too you filthy Papist sucker, have fun being the Pope's slave in Hell Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2012, 11:37:52 AM »

So you would prefer we say you're all heretics and schismatics because you don't believe in the filioque and papal infallibility and immaculate conception?  Huh
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« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2012, 11:42:44 AM »

So you would prefer we say you're all heretics and schismatics because you don't believe in the filioque and papal infallibility and immaculate conception?  Huh

That would be sincere.
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« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2012, 11:47:07 AM »

Is there a middle ground consisting of people who know the differences are serious but want to keep the lines of communication open for charity's sake?
If there is, I'd be in it.

After all if the differences weren't serious then we wouldn't be out of communion, would we? But we can attempt to talk through them and maybe eventually one side will realize it is wrong. With God all things are possible, right?

But saying there isn't much difference over issues that were anathema-worthy at the time is highly disingenuous. And...adding the filioque unilaterally was clearly the biggest mistake Rome ever made.
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« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2012, 11:51:40 AM »

You might be surprised to find a lot of Roman Catholics who agree with you on that point, Justin.
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« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2012, 11:53:02 AM »

And here lies the big issue. Currently, Rome is unable to confess it made any mistake. John Paull II did apologize for some things, clearly opening precedents for people to accept that yes, Rome may commit mistakes. But as of now, to confess that a doctrine that existed in only one see by definition cannot be catholic, and yet, it was adopted as infallible, is far too much.

Is there a middle ground consisting of people who know the differences are serious but want to keep the lines of communication open for charity's sake?
If there is, I'd be in it.

After all if the differences weren't serious then we wouldn't be out of communion, would we? But we can attempt to talk through them and maybe eventually one side will realize it is wrong. With God all things are possible, right?

But saying there isn't much difference over issues that were anathema-worthy at the time is highly disingenuous. And...adding the filioque unilaterally was clearly the biggest mistake Rome ever made.
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« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2012, 11:56:08 AM »

So you would prefer we say you're all heretics and schismatics because you don't believe in the filioque and papal infallibility and immaculate conception?  Huh

That would be sincere.
Well we agree on one thing then. That would be consistent with what our Councils say.

Instead, seems like we Catholics are in an era of treating "infallible" Catholic ecumenical councils as not quite so infallible, even as far back as Chalcedon, for the sake of "promoting Christian unity". It's a bit of a denial that the Church is the mystical Body of the Way, the Truth and the Life, don't you think?
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« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2012, 12:00:17 PM »

Speak for yourself Schismatic..........how's that better?  Grin

<3 I love you too you filthy Papist sucker, have fun being the Pope's slave in Hell Smiley
You know, it's comments like that , that make me want to go right out and join the Orthodox Church.......

Ahh, better yet, I'll hang out with Benedict and Satan for eternity.  Grin
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« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2012, 12:02:29 PM »

I really do feel bad for you James, if you have to endure the horrible experience of Catholics saying we have a lot in common. There is nothing worse than a Catholic who points out all the things that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common. In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.
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« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2012, 12:26:28 PM »

I really do feel bad for you James, if you have to endure the horrible experience of Catholics saying we have a lot in common. There is nothing worse than a Catholic who points out all the things that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common. In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

I don't think invented differences are necessary. The ones that truly exist are more than enough, namely:

Ecclesiomorphology (yes, I just made that up), the form of the governance of the Church: Monarchical (RC), Autonomous (Protestants and Non-Chalcedoneans), Federative or Confederative (Orthodox);

Governance of the Holy Spirit: It is related to Ecclesiomorphology but it is a different subject. Basically I think that we all can agree that only the Holy Spirit is infallible per se. RC will claim that the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope and the Pope only with this infallibility in issues of dogma and morality (to say it is not exclusive to the Pope is to beg the very question of papal infallibility). Protestants will say His infallibility was exercized once in the making of the Bible only, thus the innerrancy of the Bible. Infallibility was never an issue for the Orthodox, but I notice to trends: an assumption that Ecumencial councils are infallible, and another that there is no element of the Church which may be the exclusive channel of the Holy Spirit's infallible actons and decisions (which I believe to be the case).
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« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2012, 12:26:58 PM »

There are others, but I believe it is these two that are the real blockers for union.
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« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2012, 12:29:24 PM »

I really do feel bad for you James, if you have to endure the horrible experience of Catholics saying we have a lot in common. There is nothing worse than a Catholic who points out all the things that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common. In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

I don't think invented differences are necessary. The ones that truly exist are more than enough, namely:

Ecclesiomorphology (yes, I just made that up), the form of the governance of the Church: Monarchical (RC), Autonomous (Protestants and Non-Chalcedoneans), Federative or Confederative (Orthodox);

Governance of the Holy Spirit: It is related to Ecclesiomorphology but it is a different subject. Basically I think that we all can agree that only the Holy Spirit is infallible per se. RC will claim that the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope and the Pope only with this infallibility in issues of dogma and morality (to say it is not exclusive to the Pope is to beg the very question of papal infallibility). Protestants will say His infallibility was exercized once in the making of the Bible only, thus the innerrancy of the Bible. Infallibility was never an issue for the Orthodox, but I notice to trends: an assumption that Ecumencial councils are infallible, and another that there is no element of the Church which may be the exclusive channel of the Holy Spirit's infallible actons and decisions (which I believe to be the case).
I agree that there are differences. For example, you guys stopped believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception. But the point is that the OP is simply complaining for complaining's sake. Yes, there are differences, real differences, but that doesn't mean that Catholics who recognize the many, many, many similarities are simply idiots.
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« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2012, 12:34:34 PM »

I really do feel bad for you James, if you have to endure the horrible experience of Catholics saying we have a lot in common. There is nothing worse than a Catholic who points out all the things that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common. In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

I don't think invented differences are necessary. The ones that truly exist are more than enough, namely:

Ecclesiomorphology (yes, I just made that up), the form of the governance of the Church: Monarchical (RC), Autonomous (Protestants and Non-Chalcedoneans), Federative or Confederative (Orthodox);

Governance of the Holy Spirit: It is related to Ecclesiomorphology but it is a different subject. Basically I think that we all can agree that only the Holy Spirit is infallible per se. RC will claim that the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope and the Pope only with this infallibility in issues of dogma and morality (to say it is not exclusive to the Pope is to beg the very question of papal infallibility). Protestants will say His infallibility was exercized once in the making of the Bible only, thus the innerrancy of the Bible. Infallibility was never an issue for the Orthodox, but I notice to trends: an assumption that Ecumencial councils are infallible, and another that there is no element of the Church which may be the exclusive channel of the Holy Spirit's infallible actons and decisions (which I believe to be the case).
I agree that there are differences. For example, you guys stopped believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception. But the point is that the OP is simply complaining for complaining's sake. Yes, there are differences, real differences, but that doesn't mean that Catholics who recognize the many, many, many similarities are simply idiots.

Surely, you jest?!?!
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« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2012, 12:47:42 PM »

I really do feel bad for you James, if you have to endure the horrible experience of Catholics saying we have a lot in common. There is nothing worse than a Catholic who points out all the things that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common. In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

I don't think invented differences are necessary. The ones that truly exist are more than enough, namely:

Ecclesiomorphology (yes, I just made that up), the form of the governance of the Church: Monarchical (RC), Autonomous (Protestants and Non-Chalcedoneans), Federative or Confederative (Orthodox);

Governance of the Holy Spirit: It is related to Ecclesiomorphology but it is a different subject. Basically I think that we all can agree that only the Holy Spirit is infallible per se. RC will claim that the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope and the Pope only with this infallibility in issues of dogma and morality (to say it is not exclusive to the Pope is to beg the very question of papal infallibility). Protestants will say His infallibility was exercized once in the making of the Bible only, thus the innerrancy of the Bible. Infallibility was never an issue for the Orthodox, but I notice to trends: an assumption that Ecumencial councils are infallible, and another that there is no element of the Church which may be the exclusive channel of the Holy Spirit's infallible actons and decisions (which I believe to be the case).
I agree that there are differences. For example, you guys stopped believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception. But the point is that the OP is simply complaining for complaining's sake. Yes, there are differences, real differences, but that doesn't mean that Catholics who recognize the many, many, many similarities are simply idiots.

Surely, you jest?!?!
No he doesn't and his name is not "Shirley". Wink
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« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2012, 01:10:24 PM »

In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

+1

JamesR, did you mention the azymes to them yet?
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« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2012, 02:34:14 PM »

There are others, but I believe it is these two that are the real blockers for union.
Filioque doesn't count as a blocker? Basically, we'd somehow have to cancel Lyons and Florence as well as Vatican I, or you accept "the Father and Son together are the one principle of the Spirit". Given the current situation, the former is just slightly less impossible than the latter.  Wink
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« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2012, 02:37:39 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?

If you don't like that, try going to an SSPX chapel and tell everyone you're Orthodox.  Let's see where that gets you.
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« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2012, 02:44:11 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?

If you don't like that, try going to an SSPX chapel and tell everyone you're Orthodox.  Let's see where that gets you.

And please record it and upload it to youtube. I want to see what happens.
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« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2012, 02:44:45 PM »

Filioque is theologically solved in my opinion. RCatholics are very clear in explaining that what they want to say with it is not causationg in the Son, but the economic sending of the Holy Spirit to the World by the Son.

What remains is related precisely with the governance of the Church. The Roman Church is not fixing the Creed because they do believe they have the prerrogative of changing it unilaterily if the Pope so wishes, despite the fact that this approach goes against the very concept of Catholic authority.

Once the governance issue is theologically and formally solved, it will be just a matter of deciding if the filioque is altogether dropped - for, despite the intended meaning, in that particular context it cannot mean anything but causation - or if something equivalent to "and to the world through the Son" to better clarify what is meant.


There are others, but I believe it is these two that are the real blockers for union.
Filioque doesn't count as a blocker? Basically, we'd somehow have to cancel Lyons and Florence as well as Vatican I, or you accept "the Father and Son together are the one principle of the Spirit". Given the current situation, the former is just slightly less impossible than the latter.  Wink
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« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2012, 02:50:38 PM »

LOL @ thread title.
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« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2012, 02:56:06 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?

If you don't like that, try going to an SSPX chapel and tell everyone you're Orthodox.  Let's see where that gets you.

And please record it and upload it to youtube. I want to see what happens.

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel
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« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2012, 03:00:33 PM »

I really do feel bad for you James, if you have to endure the horrible experience of Catholics saying we have a lot in common. There is nothing worse than a Catholic who points out all the things that Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism have in common. In fact, what you should do is start crafting differences that don't exist for the purpose of throwing these Catholics off your trail.

I don't think invented differences are necessary. The ones that truly exist are more than enough, namely:

Ecclesiomorphology (yes, I just made that up), the form of the governance of the Church: Monarchical (RC), Autonomous (Protestants and Non-Chalcedoneans), Federative or Confederative (Orthodox);

Governance of the Holy Spirit: It is related to Ecclesiomorphology but it is a different subject. Basically I think that we all can agree that only the Holy Spirit is infallible per se. RC will claim that the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope and the Pope only with this infallibility in issues of dogma and morality (to say it is not exclusive to the Pope is to beg the very question of papal infallibility). Protestants will say His infallibility was exercized once in the making of the Bible only, thus the innerrancy of the Bible. Infallibility was never an issue for the Orthodox, but I notice to trends: an assumption that Ecumencial councils are infallible, and another that there is no element of the Church which may be the exclusive channel of the Holy Spirit's infallible actons and decisions (which I believe to be the case).
I agree that there are differences. For example, you guys stopped believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception. But the point is that the OP is simply complaining for complaining's sake. Yes, there are differences, real differences, but that doesn't mean that Catholics who recognize the many, many, many similarities are simply idiots.

You're kidding, right?
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« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2012, 03:09:01 PM »

No, he's serious.
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« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2012, 03:10:53 PM »

I agree that there are differences. For example, you guys stopped believing in the papacy

Bite your tongue. Grin
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« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2012, 03:20:05 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?

If you don't like that, try going to an SSPX chapel and tell everyone you're Orthodox.  Let's see where that gets you.

And please record it and upload it to youtube. I want to see what happens.

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel
Why you Lefebvre-ites have some nerve.  Wink
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« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2012, 03:21:38 PM »

I found out recently that there's an SSPX chapel in walking distance from where I live. Tell me #1Sinner, how good's the food at the SSPX?  Tongue
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« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2012, 05:18:18 PM »

Really? That's not what the Second Council of Lyons said:
"We profess faithfully and devotedly that the holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle; not by two spirations, but by one single spiration. This the holy Roman church, mother and mistress of all the faithful, has till now professed, preached and taught; this she firmly holds, preaches, professes and teaches; this is the unchangeable and true belief of the orthodox fathers and doctors, Latin and Greek alike. But because some, on account of ignorance of the said indisputable truth, have fallen into various errors, we, wishing to close the way to such errors, with the approval of the sacred council, condemn and reprove all who presume to deny that the holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, or rashly to assert that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from two principles and not as from one."

And Florence made it even clearer:
"In the name of the holy Trinity, Father, Son and holy Spirit, we define, with the approval of this holy universal council of Florence, that the following truth of faith shall be believed and accepted by all Christians and thus shall all profess it: that the holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration. We declare that when holy doctors and fathers say that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, this bears the sense that thereby also the Son should be signified, according to the Greeks indeed as cause, and according to the Latins as principle of the subsistence of the holy Spirit, just like the Father."

This is what was taught up until these days. I don't see the wiggle room to say it's only an economic sending in time without denying that the Councils say what they say. I wonder what RCs you might mean?

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead. If it's not a heresy (and I'm not convinced it is), then it still didn't need to be added to the Creed.

Filioque is theologically solved in my opinion. RCatholics are very clear in explaining that what they want to say with it is not causationg in the Son, but the economic sending of the Holy Spirit to the World by the Son.

What remains is related precisely with the governance of the Church. The Roman Church is not fixing the Creed because they do believe they have the prerrogative of changing it unilaterily if the Pope so wishes, despite the fact that this approach goes against the very concept of Catholic authority.

Once the governance issue is theologically and formally solved, it will be just a matter of deciding if the filioque is altogether dropped - for, despite the intended meaning, in that particular context it cannot mean anything but causation - or if something equivalent to "and to the world through the Son" to better clarify what is meant.


There are others, but I believe it is these two that are the real blockers for union.
Filioque doesn't count as a blocker? Basically, we'd somehow have to cancel Lyons and Florence as well as Vatican I, or you accept "the Father and Son together are the one principle of the Spirit". Given the current situation, the former is just slightly less impossible than the latter.  Wink
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« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2012, 05:27:03 PM »

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead.

Well, what are you waiting for?   Wink

EDIT: I never fully understood what is meant by the "as one principle" clause. Can anyone enlighten me?
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« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2012, 05:37:44 PM »

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead.

Well, what are you waiting for?   Wink

EDIT: I never fully understood what is meant by the "as one principle" clause. Can anyone enlighten me?
It is intended as a way of avoiding the notion that there are two principles of origin for the Holy Spirit, which in Eastern Orthodox theology would involve the idea that there are really two Gods.
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« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2012, 06:01:43 PM »

I know that, but "as from one principle" thing sounds a little bit like modalism to me.
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« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2012, 06:24:21 PM »

I know that, but "as from one principle" thing sounds a little bit like modalism to me.
Yes, that is a common Eastern Orthodox response, because according to the Eastern Fathers the Spirit proceeds (ἐκπόρευσις), that is, He takes His origin, from the person of God the Father.  So to speak about the Father and the Son as "one principle" in the spiration of the Holy Spirit has Sabellian overtones, which are clearly unacceptable in Eastern Triadology.
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« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2012, 07:13:28 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '
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« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2012, 07:15:00 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry
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« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2012, 07:18:43 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '


Substitute the word 'Orthodox' in there and you've got exactly what others have told me about their church on this very site.

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« Reply #70 on: December 03, 2012, 07:50:09 PM »

The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met.

You mean to tell me that you believe Catholics are worse about something than even Protestants?! This is serious.
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« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2012, 08:10:21 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '


So what heresies does the Orthodox Chuch hold, according to this bishop?
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« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2012, 08:24:13 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '


So what heresies does the Orthodox Chuch hold, according to this bishop?

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #73 on: December 03, 2012, 09:00:06 PM »

Swag is what I like to smoke Shocked

Isn't that sCHwag not swag? It's been a while since I delt with those terms

OH YEAH  Cool
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« Reply #74 on: December 03, 2012, 11:26:57 PM »

It's true. I went to an OCA church this afternoon for lunch and I totally jacked all their baked mac n cheese. Plus half a bottle of zinfandel and 3 brochures about Orthodoxy. Sweet swag!!

mac and cheese during nativity fast for lunch?  What kind of example is this OCA parish setting? What would Heterodox Herman have to say?
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« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2012, 11:38:53 PM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
not in this neck of the woods.  and there's a real question on your numbers in your stronghold (at least formerly) of Latin America.
Whatever we might have lost there, we've more than made up for it on the African continent. And the Far East.

Ah outsourcing religion..
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« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2012, 11:42:54 PM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry

I have no idea why the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church calls itself "Byzantine Catholic" when in Presov everyone calls it Greek Catholic.  And I wouldn't like to see it razed especially if you make great nutroll and pierogies.
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« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2012, 11:44:25 PM »

Truth is that there is a certain kind of ecumenists who want to force union through a "ex post facto" strategy, that is, we will simply act as if we were already united - because the differences are "irrelevant" - and the lot of you gotta deal with it after it is already happening in fact. They know that study and conversation would forbid that, so let's just "skip" all this bureaucracy.

The "we are not that different at all" discourse is what fundaments and prepare people for this "ex post facto" union.

Sounds like the EO and OO situation in North America. Communion is already being given to OO at EO chalices without conversion or chrismation.
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« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2012, 12:31:05 AM »

I have no idea why the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church calls itself "Byzantine Catholic" when in Presov everyone calls it Greek Catholic.  And I wouldn't like to see it razed especially if you make great nutroll and pierogies.

I know it used to have that other name, but that was before my time. And as a proud member of the Baby Boomer generation, anything that existed before I was born is totally irrelevant.  Grin

I found our church's "secret recipe book" for their special pierogies, while cleaning out the parish hall for the rummage sale last year. As soon as I figure out how to make it for two, instead of two hundred, I'll try to surprise my hubby with it.  Cool
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« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2012, 12:55:48 AM »

I have no idea why the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church calls itself "Byzantine Catholic" when in Presov everyone calls it Greek Catholic.  And I wouldn't like to see it razed especially if you make great nutroll and pierogies.

I know it used to have that other name, but that was before my time. And as a proud member of the Baby Boomer generation, anything that existed before I was born is totally irrelevant.  Grin

I found our church's "secret recipe book" for their special pierogies, while cleaning out the parish hall for the rummage sale last year. As soon as I figure out how to make it for two, instead of two hundred, I'll try to surprise my hubby with it.  Cool

Send me some! The three I get to eat a year at the parish ethnic festival aren't enough.
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« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2012, 08:21:18 AM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry

I must take exception to this. While there is a certain suspicion of Eastern Catholics among some Latin traditionalists, this is wreckless language which serves no purpose.

The suspicions come mainly from the fact that at least a few Eastern Catholics feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church. Dogmas such as Papal Infallibility are NOT up for debate if you call yourself Catholic. This is why I have not considered Eastern Catholicism in my journey to Orthodoxy. It would be dishonest to call myself a Catholic and thumb my nose at Catholic dogma.

Personally I find the whole "Unia" experiment to be a colossal failure, both for Catholics and Orthodox alike.



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« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2012, 10:57:41 AM »

There are a lot of Western Catholics who "feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church" too.

Are you ready to judge all of Western Catholicism a failure because of those individuals as well? That would seem only fair.

(Oh wait, you're in the OCA. I thought you were in the SSPX. So I already know the answer to that - it's exactly the same answer. Which would actually prove my point, I think, but never mind! lol!) Roll Eyes  Grin
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« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2012, 11:00:42 AM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry

I must take exception to this. While there is a certain suspicion of Eastern Catholics among some Latin traditionalists, this is wreckless language which serves no purpose.

The suspicions come mainly from the fact that at least a few Eastern Catholics feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church. Dogmas such as Papal Infallibility are NOT up for debate if you call yourself Catholic. This is why I have not considered Eastern Catholicism in my journey to Orthodoxy. It would be dishonest to call myself a Catholic and thumb my nose at Catholic dogma.

Personally I find the whole "Unia" experiment to be a colossal failure, both for Catholics and Orthodox alike.




For quite a few people, Eastern Catholicism does not invovle denying Catholic dogmas such as the Papacy or the Immaculate Conception.
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« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2012, 11:02:10 AM »

I have no idea why the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church calls itself "Byzantine Catholic" when in Presov everyone calls it Greek Catholic.  And I wouldn't like to see it razed especially if you make great nutroll and pierogies.

I know it used to have that other name, but that was before my time. And as a proud member of the Baby Boomer generation, anything that existed before I was born is totally irrelevant.  Grin

I found our church's "secret recipe book" for their special pierogies, while cleaning out the parish hall for the rummage sale last year. As soon as I figure out how to make it for two, instead of two hundred, I'll try to surprise my hubby with it.  Cool

Send me some! The three I get to eat a year at the parish ethnic festival aren't enough.

We are getting a whole freezerful of them from a church in Fontana, CA this weekend!  Cool
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« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2012, 11:16:18 AM »

There are a lot of Western Catholics who "feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church" too.

Are you ready to judge all of Western Catholicism a failure because of those individuals as well? That would seem only fair.

(Oh wait, you're in the OCA. I thought you were in the SSPX. So I already know the answer to that - it's exactly the same answer. Which would actually prove my point, I think, but never mind! lol!) Roll Eyes  Grin

I am well aware that a lot of Latin Rite Catholics thumb their nose at official papal teaching as well. They are no more Catholic then Eastern Catholics who disregard the dogma of papal infallibility. There can be no real unity without unity of Faith.

A lot of Byzantine Catholics like to pretend that papal pronouncements don't apply to them in matters of dogma. This is not true. All Catholics are bound to believe that the pope has absolute and immediate jurisdiction over the entire Church and that when speaking ex cathedra in matters of Faith and Morals, he cannot err. Eastern Catholics are also bound to hold that the Filioque is sound theology even if not required to profess it in the Creed. The failure of Uniatism lies in the seeking to reconcile two irreconcilable positions. It actually does a disservice to Eastern Catholics in that they are really just Roman Catholics in Orthodox garb.

I recently heard an interview with a Melkite priest on Ancient Faith radio in that he basically agreed with every Orthodox position regarding all the controversial issues. I kept wondering while listening to this: why not just become Orthodox? What real unity exists between the Church of Rome and the Eastern Sui Iuris Churches if they agree not on doctrine?

I am currently journeying from SSPX to OCA. I have not made the move official as of yet.
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« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2012, 11:20:25 AM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry

I must take exception to this. While there is a certain suspicion of Eastern Catholics among some Latin traditionalists, this is wreckless language which serves no purpose.

The suspicions come mainly from the fact that at least a few Eastern Catholics feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church. Dogmas such as Papal Infallibility are NOT up for debate if you call yourself Catholic. This is why I have not considered Eastern Catholicism in my journey to Orthodoxy. It would be dishonest to call myself a Catholic and thumb my nose at Catholic dogma.

Personally I find the whole "Unia" experiment to be a colossal failure, both for Catholics and Orthodox alike.




For quite a few people, Eastern Catholicism does not invovle denying Catholic dogmas such as the Papacy or the Immaculate Conception.

True. That is the proper and correct Catholic belief. I have had much experience with Eastern Catholicism and that appears to be the minority opinion, however.
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« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2012, 11:33:53 AM »

As one who assists at an SSPX chapel, at least for now, I can say you would probably be welcomed and asked to stay for some coffee and food.

Harsh I know  angel

I know someone who is an ultra-trad and an ardent follower of Bishop Williamson has this to say to me:

Listen, I realize that Eastern Catholicism has become a new half-way house to the eccumenical heresy and apostasy..But, I'm not going to sit here and debate it with you. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, that is dogma...The Orthodox are not "sister Churchers" they are apostates who broke from the Catholic Church and need to renounce their heresies and abjure their errors to be saved...If you defect from one teaching, you are no longer a member of the catholic church..That's the teaching of The Church..If you are a heretic you have not God for your Father, but only Satan. '

Wow, just one more group that would love to see my Byzantine Catholic church razed to the ground.  Angry

I must take exception to this. While there is a certain suspicion of Eastern Catholics among some Latin traditionalists, this is wreckless language which serves no purpose.

The suspicions come mainly from the fact that at least a few Eastern Catholics feel free to denigrate and disregard papal teaching which are binding on all Catholics of whatever sui iuris Church. Dogmas such as Papal Infallibility are NOT up for debate if you call yourself Catholic. This is why I have not considered Eastern Catholicism in my journey to Orthodoxy. It would be dishonest to call myself a Catholic and thumb my nose at Catholic dogma.

Personally I find the whole "Unia" experiment to be a colossal failure, both for Catholics and Orthodox alike.




For quite a few people, Eastern Catholicism does not invovle denying Catholic dogmas such as the Papacy or the Immaculate Conception.

True. That is the proper and correct Catholic belief. I have had much experience with Eastern Catholicism and that appears to be the minority opinion, however.
Interesting. Here is what my experience has been. At the Byzantine Catholic parish here in Albuquerque, the vast majority of the parishoners accept the teachings of the Church which include the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception, etc.
On the internets, on the other hand, most of the Eastern Catholics I have encountered reject things like the Papacy and the Immaculate Conception. I think that just like there are Netodox, there are analogous Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2012, 12:04:55 PM »

For quite a few people, Eastern Catholicism does not invovle denying Catholic dogmas such as the Papacy or the Immaculate Conception.

Nonsense!  That is what Eastern Catholicism is all about!  We get to play "dress-up Orthodox" and still go to Mass with our mums and receive Communion there!
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« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2012, 12:07:15 PM »

Really, choy? :-(
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« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2012, 12:13:13 PM »

Really, choy? :-(

Don't be so serious Wink
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« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2012, 12:44:14 PM »

Something that has always confused me is the attitude of the "decision theology" folks. Why aren't such things as hearing, believing, and "making a decision for Christ", which are all conscious, volitional acts, considered "works"?
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« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2012, 01:20:39 PM »

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead.

Well, what are you waiting for?   Wink

EDIT: I never fully understood what is meant by the "as one principle" clause. Can anyone enlighten me?
I'm not fully convinced yet  Wink

There is still the St. Thomas Aquinas objection that there is nothing to distinguish the eternal generation of the Son from the eternal procession of the Spirit, and therefore nothing to distinguish Son and Spirit, unless the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son.

Also a bit of an allergic reaction to adding the word "alone" in places it wasn't originally written, like "saved through faith alone" like the Protestants say.
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« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2012, 01:52:32 PM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
not in this neck of the woods.  and there's a real question on your numbers in your stronghold (at least formerly) of Latin America.
Whatever we might have lost there, we've more than made up for it on the African continent. And the Far East.

Ah outsourcing religion..
Not quite. Africa was difficult to evangelize for the longest time due in part to it's isolation and primitive culture, the Church never made inroads there until fairly recently. Also, the "catholic" Imperial and colonial powers like Spain and France never pushed into the continent like their Prot nemisis of Great Britian and the Dutch hence the dominant  non-Catholic christian strongholds like Angelicans or the Church of England amongst the Africans. But times are changing with newer technology and mass communication making it easier for the Vatican to obtain new converts on the Dark Continent, I believe Catholicism is the fastest growing religion in Africa and the Far East these days and from what I understand and much more traditional than their "modernists" counterparts in the West.



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« Reply #93 on: December 04, 2012, 01:57:05 PM »

Sorry if I don't get anyone's jokes today; I'm on my cell with limited emoticonnectivity. ;-)
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« Reply #94 on: December 04, 2012, 02:51:37 PM »


I'm not fully convinced yet  Wink

There is still the St. Thomas Aquinas objection that there is nothing to distinguish the eternal generation of the Son from the eternal procession of the Spirit, and therefore nothing to distinguish Son and Spirit, unless the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son.

The Son is caused by generation (γεννησια), the Holy Spirit by procession (ἐκπορευσις).

What then is the difference? Let's ask St. Gregory the Theologian (Vth Theol. Orat.):

"The Holy Ghost, which proceeds from the Father; Who, inasmuch as He proceeds from That Source, is no Creature; and inasmuch as He is not Begotten is no Son; and inasmuch as He is between the Unbegotten and the Begotten is God. And thus escaping the toils of your syllogisms, He has manifested himself as God, stronger than your divisions.

What then is Procession? Do you tell me what is the Unbegottenness of the Father, and I will explain to you the physiology of the Generation of the Son and the Procession of the Spirit, and we shall both of us be frenzy-stricken for prying into the mystery of God."


It seemed Aquinas was trying to pry into the mystery and got frenzy-stricken  Wink

Also a bit of an allergic reaction to adding the word "alone" in places it wasn't originally written, like "saved through faith alone" like the Protestants say.

AFAIK, the Orthodox haven't added "monou" to "tò ek tou Patros ekporevomenon".
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« Reply #95 on: December 04, 2012, 02:52:31 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics

Yes. But one thing I have learned is that the Orthodox tend to be very different regarding ecumenism, but not necessarily better.
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« Reply #96 on: December 04, 2012, 02:52:57 PM »

A lot of Byzantine Catholics like to pretend that papal pronouncements don't apply to them in matters of dogma. This is not true. All Catholics are bound to believe that the pope has absolute and immediate jurisdiction over the entire Church and that when speaking ex cathedra in matters of Faith and Morals, he cannot err. Eastern Catholics are also bound to hold that the Filioque is sound theology even if not required to profess it in the Creed.

And if they don't, the pope has the prerogative to excommunicate them. The question is, are you the pope?
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« Reply #97 on: December 04, 2012, 02:53:16 PM »

Personally I find the whole "Unia" experiment to be a colossal failure, both for Catholics and Orthodox alike.

To me, that seems a lot like parents wishing that they had never had any children.
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« Reply #98 on: December 04, 2012, 02:55:00 PM »

Really, choy? :-(

Don't be so serious Wink

You mean, Why so serious?
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« Reply #99 on: December 04, 2012, 03:05:19 PM »


I'm not that kind of joker Wink
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« Reply #100 on: December 04, 2012, 03:38:33 PM »

I recently heard an interview with a Melkite priest on Ancient Faith radio in that he basically agreed with every Orthodox position regarding all the controversial issues. I kept wondering while listening to this: why not just become Orthodox? What real unity exists between the Church of Rome and the Eastern Sui Iuris Churches if they agree not on doctrine?

I heard that interview as well and was wondering the same thing. From what he said, it sounded like his Melkite church was basically entirely Orthodox except for the pope. Did any Eastern Catholics happen to hear the interview/have feedback on it?
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« Reply #101 on: December 04, 2012, 04:43:35 PM »

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead.

Well, what are you waiting for?   Wink

EDIT: I never fully understood what is meant by the "as one principle" clause. Can anyone enlighten me?
I'm not fully convinced yet  Wink

There is still the St. Thomas Aquinas objection that there is nothing to distinguish the eternal generation of the Son from the eternal procession of the Spirit, and therefore nothing to distinguish Son and Spirit, unless the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son.

Also a bit of an allergic reaction to adding the word "alone" in places it wasn't originally written, like "saved through faith alone" like the Protestants say.

The Spirit is eternally manifest through the Son, and this is how we know them to be different. But as Gregory the Theologian shows, even this is unnecessary for differentiating them because they are also different by virtue of their differing manners of origination from the Father. The Latin West uniquely created the problem which underlies Thomas Aquinas' objection, because they classed the Son's generation to be a procession, while we do not.
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« Reply #102 on: December 04, 2012, 05:00:27 PM »

I recently heard an interview with a Melkite priest on Ancient Faith radio in that he basically agreed with every Orthodox position regarding all the controversial issues. I kept wondering while listening to this: why not just become Orthodox? What real unity exists between the Church of Rome and the Eastern Sui Iuris Churches if they agree not on doctrine?

I heard that interview as well and was wondering the same thing. From what he said, it sounded like his Melkite church was basically entirely Orthodox except for the pope. Did any Eastern Catholics happen to hear the interview/have feedback on it?

I heard it and had the same reaction.  I think most EC Churches want to make good on the unions and get it to work.  There is a belief that we will somehow foster unity by pushing the RC to a certain degree that will be acceptable to the Orthodox Church to accept reunion.  But don't hold your breath for it, it is a long process and won't happen in our lifetime.
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« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2012, 05:49:00 PM »

Is there a middle ground consisting of people who know the differences are serious but want to keep the lines of communication open for charity's sake?
A few people come to mind.

1. David Bentley Hart is Orthodox, and pretty ecumenical. He really pushes for reunion: http://fatherdavidbirdosb.blogspot.com/2012/05/myth-of-schism-by-david-bentley-hart.html

2. Timothy Flanders is an Orthodox Christian with Catholic sympathies:

http://www.devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/2012/11/26/an-eastern-orthodox-christian-looks-west/
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« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2012, 06:29:16 PM »

So just to clarify, truthseeker, you're a seeker of lapsed Mormons? Or are you a lapsed seeker of Mormons?
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« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2012, 06:31:18 PM »

I recently heard an interview with a Melkite priest on Ancient Faith radio in that he basically agreed with every Orthodox position regarding all the controversial issues. I kept wondering while listening to this: why not just become Orthodox? What real unity exists between the Church of Rome and the Eastern Sui Iuris Churches if they agree not on doctrine?

I heard that interview as well and was wondering the same thing. From what he said, it sounded like his Melkite church was basically entirely Orthodox except for the pope. Did any Eastern Catholics happen to hear the interview/have feedback on it?

I think we had a thread about that, though I could be wrong. Was this the "East meets East" interview?
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« Reply #106 on: December 04, 2012, 06:50:12 PM »

I think we had a thread about that, though I could be wrong. Was this the "East meets East" interview?

No, it was episode 168 of The Illumined Heart on Ancient Faith Radio. Well, at least that was the Melkite interview I heard.
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« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2012, 07:42:00 PM »

Is there a middle ground consisting of people who know the differences are serious but want to keep the lines of communication open for charity's sake?
A few people come to mind.

1. David Bentley Hart is Orthodox, and pretty ecumenical. He really pushes for reunion: http://fatherdavidbirdosb.blogspot.com/2012/05/myth-of-schism-by-david-bentley-hart.html

2. Timothy Flanders is an Orthodox Christian with Catholic sympathies:

http://www.devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/2012/11/26/an-eastern-orthodox-christian-looks-west/

Wow, those were both really interesting essays! I feel refreshed. So much better. Thanks, truthseeker  Smiley
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« Reply #108 on: December 04, 2012, 07:50:04 PM »

Actually, I've found a couple of short threads on it, e.g. 2 recent Byzantine Catholic podcasts on AFR.
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« Reply #109 on: December 04, 2012, 08:00:21 PM »

Actually, I've found a couple of short threads on it, e.g. 2 recent Byzantine Catholic podcasts on AFR.

Indeed! The podcasts described there are the ones we were mentioning up above.
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« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2012, 09:05:00 PM »

I know there's another thread for memes but since this one was inspired by this thread I thought you wouldn't mind:


http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3s1nqk/
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« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2012, 10:03:56 PM »

For example, you guys STOPPED believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception.

Wha??!



Paging Master Isa
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« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2012, 10:19:29 PM »

So just to clarify, truthseeker, you're a seeker of lapsed Mormons? Or are you a lapsed seeker of Mormons?
I'm gonna change that right now. I am a former Mormon currently in RCIA, but with a great love for Eastern Christianity.

Wow, those were both really interesting essays! I feel refreshed. So much better. Thanks, truthseeker  Smiley
I'm glad you like the articles Smiley I enjoyed them as well.
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« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2012, 10:26:39 PM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
not in this neck of the woods.  and there's a real question on your numbers in your stronghold (at least formerly) of Latin America.
Whatever we might have lost there, we've more than made up for it on the African continent. And the Far East.

Ah outsourcing religion..
Not quite. Africa was difficult to evangelize for the longest time due in part to it's isolation and primitive culture, the Church never made inroads there until fairly recently. Also, the "catholic" Imperial and colonial powers like Spain and France never pushed into the continent like their Prot nemisis of Great Britian and the Dutch hence the dominant  non-Catholic christian strongholds like Angelicans or the Church of England amongst the Africans. But times are changing with newer technology and mass communication making it easier for the Vatican to obtain new converts on the Dark Continent, I believe Catholicism is the fastest growing religion in Africa and the Far East these days and from what I understand and much more traditional than their "modernists" counterparts in the West.





What is wrong with primitive culture?  You make it seem like without canned food, cell phones and money they were somehow doomed. 
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« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2012, 10:32:40 PM »

For example, you guys STOPPED believing in the papacy and the Immaculate Conception.

Wha??!



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I was simply recognizing that we have genuine differences.
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« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2012, 10:35:17 PM »



I recently heard an interview with a Melkite priest on Ancient Faith radio in that he basically agreed with every Orthodox position regarding all the controversial issues. I kept wondering while listening to this: why not just become Orthodox?


A) priests in the eastern tradition are usually guys who were brought up in the community to be the priest.  It's something I can't explain but you'll have to learn.  Like he's the leader and a part of your church family.  They know the congregants and they know him.  Usually it is a tight knit parish.  But Eastern in culture. Everyone is closer in certain ways than you are used to if you aren't greek/arab/slav.
He has a tie to the people he just can't leave them.  He's grown with them and they've grown with him.  Regardless of papal stuff it's still his church.
B) Health insurance and pay.  You don't want to know what most orthodox priests make and the lack of healthcare they do not receive.  I say this with most sincerity.  I'm not making this up either.  Retirement as well in the Greek Catholics.  Most Orthodox pay their priest out of the parish fund.  A few jurisdictions pay from the diocese headquarters but it isn't stellar pay.  It varies by jurisdiction and by parish on the monetary situation.  
C) He likes the melkite position and doesn't want to join the orthodox.

D) Friend of mine who has a Greek Catholic priest father in law said that he said,
If a window breaks in my Greek Catholic rectory it gets replaced tomorrow... if a window breaks in the orthodox priest's rectory it takes 9 parish council meetings, the priest getting yelled at by the parish council because the heating bill is up but they won't settle on who's cousin can replace the window cheaper..
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« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2012, 01:13:50 AM »

If it's a heresy, it's a heresy, and I should be Orthodox instead.

Well, what are you waiting for?   Wink

EDIT: I never fully understood what is meant by the "as one principle" clause. Can anyone enlighten me?
I'm not fully convinced yet  Wink

There is still the St. Thomas Aquinas objection that there is nothing to distinguish the eternal generation of the Son from the eternal procession of the Spirit, and therefore nothing to distinguish Son and Spirit, unless the Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son.

Also a bit of an allergic reaction to adding the word "alone" in places it wasn't originally written, like "saved through faith alone" like the Protestants say.

The Spirit is eternally manifest through the Son, and this is how we know them to be different. But as Gregory the Theologian shows, even this is unnecessary for differentiating them because they are also different by virtue of their differing manners of origination from the Father. The Latin West uniquely created the problem which underlies Thomas Aquinas' objection, because they classed the Son's generation to be a procession, while we do not.
OK. That sounds eminently reasonable. I even suspected it was one of those things where it would turn out to be "the generation and procession are different, only God knows how, don't pry any further lest you go mad".

Something else that came to mind was that if our Angelic Doctor rationally proved everything about God including all the internal workings of the Trinity, then he wasn't talking about God at all. God is supposed to be far beyond that.

Anyway...I need a break to digest all this.
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« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2012, 09:47:56 AM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".
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« Reply #118 on: December 05, 2012, 10:02:11 AM »

Actually, I've found a couple of short threads on it, e.g. 2 recent Byzantine Catholic podcasts on AFR.

Indeed! The podcasts described there are the ones we were mentioning up above.

Yeah.

The discussion of them on OCnet has, it seems, been rather limited. However, see also these search results. (Those are on a different website than OCnet, which is why I'm not going to further detail here.)
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« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2012, 11:33:54 AM »

" maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?"- OP

What's this "we" stuff sucka, we outnumber you and the heretics two to one at least.
not in this neck of the woods.  and there's a real question on your numbers in your stronghold (at least formerly) of Latin America.
Whatever we might have lost there, we've more than made up for it on the African continent. And the Far East.

Ah outsourcing religion..
Not quite. Africa was difficult to evangelize for the longest time due in part to it's isolation and primitive culture, the Church never made inroads there until fairly recently. Also, the "catholic" Imperial and colonial powers like Spain and France never pushed into the continent like their Prot nemisis of Great Britian and the Dutch hence the dominant  non-Catholic christian strongholds like Angelicans or the Church of England amongst the Africans. But times are changing with newer technology and mass communication making it easier for the Vatican to obtain new converts on the Dark Continent, I believe Catholicism is the fastest growing religion in Africa and the Far East these days and from what I understand and much more traditional than their "modernists" counterparts in the West.





What is wrong with primitive culture?  You make it seem like without canned food, cell phones and money they were somehow doomed. 
I mentioned nothing of right or "wrong", just that it was difficult to evangelize or send missionaries.

I don't believe for a second that all the niceties of our  modern culture make us any more moral.

Quite the opposite in many cases actually.
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« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2012, 02:41:10 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.
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« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2012, 03:02:49 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.
Oh the broad brush with which you paint.
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« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2012, 03:12:43 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.
Oh the broad brush with which you paint.

My posts are always within the context of the post.  I am talking about the RCs in CAF.  I'm not going to expound on every sentence just for the oft chance someone takes offense to it.
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« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2012, 03:39:12 PM »

I'm a bit confused on this issue myself. I am currently under moderation for using a certain term which I was unaware is not allowed here (hence, I completely accept the moderation, and am not meaning this post as a challenge to the moderators...just FYI Grin), but which has been historically used without prejudice by the Roman Church itself to refer to its Eastern compatriots for centuries, and only recently acquired a supposedly-pejorative meaning. That in itself is odd to me, because you know what also had a pejorative meaning, originally? "Roman Catholic", when it was being used by Protestants to smear the adherents of Rome in Europe during the Reformation! And yet you hardly ever see self-described Roman Catholics saying that this is inappropriate.

So for someone outside of that communion, even if they want to use the right term it can be hard to know in advance what should be used, because you cab have a term that one group uses proudly as a descriptor but another group of the same communion thinks is a horrible offense and should never be used. I realize that rites are not churches, but there are enough examples within the Roman communion of a church being established from a section of a much older Orthodox church, thereby making the rite that they bring with them (or whatever modification thereof that they use) unique to that church, that I think this particular error should be forgiven. In some cases, the new Rome-affiliated churches even come with newly minted ethnicities or at least ethnoreligious identities (e.g., Chaldean, Maronite), making the situation even more confusing for the outsider.
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« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2012, 03:42:34 PM »

I'm a bit confused on this issue myself. I am currently under moderation for using a certain term which I was unaware is not allowed here (hence, I completely accept the moderation, and am not meaning this post as a challenge to the moderators...just FYI Grin), but which has been historically used without prejudice by the Roman Church itself to refer to its Eastern compatriots for centuries, and only recently acquired a supposedly-pejorative meaning. That in itself is odd to me, because you know what also had a pejorative meaning, originally? "Roman Catholic", when it was being used by Protestants to smear the adherents of Rome in Europe during the Reformation! And yet you hardly ever see self-described Roman Catholics saying that this is inappropriate.

So for someone outside of that communion, even if they want to use the right term it can be hard to know in advance what should be used, because you cab have a term that one group uses proudly as a descriptor but another group of the same communion thinks is a horrible offense and should never be used. I realize that rites are not churches, but there are enough examples within the Roman communion of a church being established from a section of a much older Orthodox church, thereby making the rite that they bring with them (or whatever modification thereof that they use) unique to that church, that I think this particular error should be forgiven. In some cases, the new Rome-affiliated churches even come with newly minted ethnicities or at least ethnoreligious identities (e.g., Chaldean, Maronite), making the situation even more confusing for the outsider.
And such is the nature of Apostolic Christianity.
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« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2012, 03:57:18 PM »

Uh huh.

I forgot how latter-day sheep-stealing and making up ethnicities out of thin air was part of Apostolic Christianity. My mistake.
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« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2012, 05:16:54 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.

There is no Latin Rite but the Roman Rite and its various Uses, the Ambrosian Rite, and the Mozarabic Rite which are used by the Latin Catholic Church and have Latin as their mother liturgical language.
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« Reply #127 on: December 05, 2012, 05:38:13 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.

There is no Latin Rite but the Roman Rite and its various Uses, the Ambrosian Rite, and the Mozarabic Rite which are used by the Latin Catholic Church and have Latin as their mother liturgical language.

Among the many Vatican documents, Pope John Paul II refers to the West in Orientale Lumen as "Catholics of the Latin tradition".  And tradition=Rite.
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« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2012, 11:05:49 PM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.

Don't get me wrong, "Roman" and "Latin" are perfectly correct terms. The problem is only when people mix up "Rite" and "Church", and talk about "the Latin Rite" and "the Roman Church", instead of "the Latin Church" and "the Roman Rite". (Or, likewise, "the Melkite Rite" and other such errors.)
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« Reply #129 on: December 05, 2012, 11:06:54 PM »

In some cases, the new Rome-affiliated churches even come with newly minted ethnicities or at least ethnoreligious identities (e.g., Chaldean, Maronite), making the situation even more confusing for the outsider.

I'm sure Abraham would agree with you.
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« Reply #130 on: December 05, 2012, 11:11:49 PM »

I realize that rites are not churches, but there are enough examples within the Roman communion of a church being established from a section of a much older Orthodox church, thereby making the rite that they bring with them (or whatever modification thereof that they use) unique to that church, that I think this particular error should be forgiven.

Well yes, the error is understandable, but we should still encourage proper usage.

(Incidentally, I can remember some conversations I was in (I won't say where, but some here can probably guess) in which poster(s) were actually informed of their mistake and then flatly refused to stop referring to EC Churches as "Rites".)
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« Reply #131 on: December 05, 2012, 11:14:51 PM »

RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics. 
This is what I've been exposed to as well, and I probably would've made the "Latin Rite" mistake as a result of it.
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« Reply #132 on: December 06, 2012, 12:03:05 AM »

In some cases, the new Rome-affiliated churches even come with newly minted ethnicities or at least ethnoreligious identities (e.g., Chaldean, Maronite), making the situation even more confusing for the outsider.

I'm sure Abraham would agree with you.

Now Abraham was a member of the Chaldean Church, too? Kind of amazing, considering how anachronistic it is to identify a person who supposedly (not conclusively) hailed from Ur of the Chaldees (presumably the Sumerian city of Ur) some thousands of years before the existence of the Chaldean Church -- which is a subsection of the preexisting Church of the East which entered into union with Rome in the 16th century following a succession dispute within the CoE -- with the people who claim to be "Chaldeans" today. Proof of the "Chaldeans" Syriac origins lie in the form of their liturgy, and their language, which essentially the dialect of Neo-Aramaic spoken in Alqosh, the first city whose inhabitants accepted Vatican rule. By contrast, Sumerian is a language isolate. (Also, geographically, Tel al-Muqayyar, which roughly corresponds to the location of Ur, is pretty far south from Alqosh, or Baqofa, or the other "Chaldean" towns of the far north of Iraq.)

Geez...pretty soon we'll wake up tomorrow to find that the Vatican invented gravity, created the sun, etc. So many things are taken up by Rome, and they're all 100% accurate, and never a manipulation of preexisting situations in order to bring more people into the Vatican fold.
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« Reply #133 on: December 06, 2012, 12:05:58 AM »

Or, we'll just get tired of hearing your old rants again.

Reading threads like this, I wonder why I wasted the last three years of my life.

  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2012, 12:20:15 AM »

Hmmm. I might have asked myself something similar at one point upon leaving the Roman communion. You and I are not so different in that way, Biro. Smiley
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« Reply #135 on: December 06, 2012, 12:23:17 AM »

Yes we are.
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« Reply #136 on: December 06, 2012, 12:29:17 AM »

Most ultra-trads are ultramontanists.  They also believe that the Latin Rite is the only valid form of the faith, and that Eastern Catholicism is nothing but a transition phase to ease the Orthodox into the Roman Catholic Church.  But the goal is that they will be Roman Catholics.

Not meaning to get off topic, but I wish people on this forum would stop speaking of the "Latin Rite". I know it's commonly used, but it's just as incorrect as saying "the Melkite Rite" or "the Ukrainian Rite".

What should I use then?  RCs at CAF want to be called Latin Rite Catholics.  Like the Latin language and other silly complaints of Latins, they are preoccupied again with things that doesn't matter to their salvation.

Don't get me wrong, "Roman" and "Latin" are perfectly correct terms. The problem is only when people mix up "Rite" and "Church", and talk about "the Latin Rite" and "the Roman Church", instead of "the Latin Church" and "the Roman Rite". (Or, likewise, "the Melkite Rite" and other such errors.)

The Roman Rite refers to the Mass, not the Liturgical tradition.  Although a lot have taken to the term Latin Church because of this notion that Roman Catholic is somehow derogatory.
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« Reply #137 on: December 06, 2012, 09:14:02 AM »

In some cases, the new Rome-affiliated churches even come with newly minted ethnicities or at least ethnoreligious identities (e.g., Chaldean, Maronite), making the situation even more confusing for the outsider.

I'm sure Abraham would agree with you.

Now Abraham was a member of the Chaldean Church, too?

Well I don't know about that.  I'm saying that he would have joined you in calling them a new ethnicity.
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« Reply #138 on: December 06, 2012, 09:19:46 AM »

Although a lot have taken to the term Latin Church because of this notion that Roman Catholic is somehow derogatory.

Well alright, but notwithstanding their particular motivation, Latin Church is still the proper term. (For that matter, I there are also many of us who are motivated less by a desire to get the terms "Roman" and "Latin" right, than by a desire to get the terms "Rite" and "Church" right.)
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« Reply #139 on: December 12, 2012, 07:28:23 AM »

Been out for some days. I copied and pasted and didn't see the word. For that I apologize.

Here's the original link:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=swag

1.    swag   
Orginally from the Scottish slang word "swagger" which was a description of the way some Scots walk (in a swaying motion), the word was then misinterpreted by the English as "the way someone presents themselves". Eg, whether someone looks cool.
The word quickly made its way to the states and has ever since become the catchphrase of I have no words to substitute what you wrote which was in clear violation of ethics and oc.net rules. -username! section moderator
Person 1: "I think that guy off Jersey Shore has swag"

swag1   [swag]  Show IPA noun, verb, swagged, swag·ging.
noun
1.
a suspended wreath, garland, drapery, or the like, fastened up at or near each end and hanging down in the middle; festoon.
2.
a wreath, spray, or cluster of foliage, flowers, or fruit.
3.
a festoon, especially one very heavy toward the center.
4.
a swale.
5.
a swaying or lurching movement.
verb (used without object)
6.
to move heavily or unsteadily from side to side or up and down; sway.
7.
to hang loosely and heavily; sink down.

Know your Meme website:
“Swag” is an internet slang term often found in comments, discussion forums and image macros used as a synonym for “swagger,” a type of style or presence that exudes confidence and is sometimes interpreted as arrogance.

I know exactly what you mean, the only difference is that when I tell them I'm an old calendarist they either have no idea what I'm talking about or assume that I'm a matthewite and that I hate them or something and slowly back away.  I just don't understand anything in the RCs anymore...

Also, swag=Secretly We Are Gay... Just saying
You are hereby officially warned for 40 days per language. You ought to know better than to use foul language like that on a Christian forum.  If you feel you have not used curse words and that your mother would be totally happy with you using said language in front of your bishop then feel free to appeal it to the higher ups. -username! section moderator.  Also you can not copy and paste something without the link.  You have 24 hours to provide the link for the above definition or you will be placed on post moderation. 
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« Reply #140 on: December 29, 2012, 09:43:58 PM »

I nominate the title of this thread for the best thread title of the year.
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« Reply #141 on: December 29, 2012, 09:53:16 PM »

I nominate the title of this thread for the best thread title of the year.

Seconded.
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« Reply #142 on: December 30, 2012, 07:51:38 PM »

Seems to me the swag jacks both ways . Roll Eyes
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« Reply #143 on: February 17, 2013, 05:16:52 PM »

While I know this thread has been dead for a month and a half, I wanted to point out that the phrase "jack our swag" points to this thread as the # 4 overall result in Google.  Kudos!
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« Reply #144 on: February 17, 2013, 07:28:17 PM »

Swags are things you sleep in. A swagman is someone who carries a swag.

Tell your Latin friends to convert to Orthodoxy, if thy really thing there are no real differences. You will discover that they will find reasons not to.
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« Reply #145 on: February 18, 2013, 10:57:51 AM »

Tell your Latin friends to convert to Orthodoxy, if thy really thing there are no real differences.

If someone thought that there were no differences, why would he/she abandon one group in order to join the other? (Unless we were talking about protestants, which we aren't.)
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« Reply #146 on: February 18, 2013, 11:02:31 AM »

Tell your Latin friends to convert to Orthodoxy, if thy really thing there are no real differences.

If someone thought that there were no differences, why would he/she abandon one group in order to join the other? (Unless we were talking about protestants, which we aren't.)

Why indeed would one go through a long catechumenate to join a group identical to the one you already belong to?
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« Reply #147 on: February 18, 2013, 12:01:17 PM »

Tell your Latin friends to convert to Orthodoxy, if thy really thing there are no real differences.

If someone thought that there were no differences, why would he/she abandon one group in order to join the other? (Unless we were talking about protestants, which we aren't.)

Why indeed would one go through a long catechumenate to join a group identical to the one you already belong to?

Is not-switching-sides really a matter of not wanting to be bothered with the procedure?
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« Reply #148 on: February 18, 2013, 12:13:51 PM »

Can't speak for anyone else, but there's too much at stake, eternally, to be put off by mere inconveniences once one is convinced of the Truth.
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« Reply #149 on: February 18, 2013, 12:47:28 PM »

Can't speak for anyone else, but there's too much at stake, eternally, to be put off by mere inconveniences once one is convinced of the Truth.

Well, that does make sense; but I've already rejected the idea that not-switching-sides is a matter of not wanting to be bothered with the procedure, so ...
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« Reply #150 on: February 18, 2013, 01:59:02 PM »

On a very high level it does look like there is no difference between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy.  But is our faith merely a high level view and each Church through their own traditions can simply make stuff up in the details?  The more I learn of Orthodoxy, the more foreign it to Roman Catholicism, at least in my view.  Externally and mechanically there if very little difference.  But when we look at what all of these means and what we actually believe about each and every single thing in our faith, we are so far apart.

I'm not trying to promote division here.  Just being honest about how things are and what things are.
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« Reply #151 on: February 27, 2013, 06:21:50 PM »

It just seems like with almost every Roman Catholic I have met, whenever they discover that I am Orthodox, they end up acting real friendly and ecumenical--saying that we're "the same" or that the differences aren't really that big. The most false ecumenism I get comes from Roman Catholics--not even "non-denominationals" are as ecumenical as the Roman Catholics I have met. They're kind of like that annoying kid at school who no one in your group of friends really likes, but he still hangs around you and follows your group anyway acting like he's all a part of the gang and everything.

Is this sense of false ecumenism with the Orthodox a normal trend for Roman Catholics, or is it just something among the American Roman Catholic world? Like, maybe the reason they are so friendly and falsely ecumenical with the Orthodox is because we're both religious minorities in their eyes in the domain of Evangelical Protestantism?
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« Reply #152 on: February 27, 2013, 06:55:34 PM »

Can't speak for anyone else, but there's too much at stake, eternally, to be put off by mere inconveniences once one is convinced of the Truth.

I agree.  This is why I converted.....
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