do you spank your kids?

[choy]

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

I'm pretty sure those who never get punished by mom and dad and get everything they want grow up to become upstanding citizens. 

You really shouldn't conflate not beating children with "never get(ting) punished" and "get(ting) everything they want".

It works both ways.  Of course if you beat your child they will suffer emotional problems from it.  But spanking is not beating your child.  But for people who don't know the difference, then it is a good idea not to spank their children.  But they shouldn't tell us who knows the difference that we're wrong for doing so.

[JamesR]

From my experience, parents who don't physically discipline their kids usually have the most misbehaved kids. And on the other side of the spectrum, parents who abuse their children (mostly out of religion) also have some of the worst teenagers. The teens getting pregnant or doing drugs are always the ones who were sheltered from ultra religious, strict families that abused them for even the smallest offense.

[Kerdy]

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

I'm pretty sure those who never get punished by mom and dad and get everything they want grow up to become upstanding citizens. 

You really shouldn't conflate not beating children with "never get(ting) punished" and "get(ting) everything they want".

You really shouldn't conflate spanking your children with "beating" them. 

[Kerdy]

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

I'm pretty sure those who never get punished by mom and dad and get everything they want grow up to become upstanding citizens. 

You really shouldn't conflate not beating children with "never get(ting) punished" and "get(ting) everything they want".

It works both ways.  Of course if you beat your child they will suffer emotional problems from it.  But spanking is not beating your child.  But for people who don't know the difference, then it is a good idea not to spank their children.  But they shouldn't tell us who knows the difference that we're wrong for doing so.

This is sound advice!

[Kerdy]

From my experience, parents who don't physically discipline their kids usually have the most misbehaved kids. And on the other side of the spectrum, parents who abuse their children (mostly out of religion) also have some of the worst teenagers. The teens getting pregnant or doing drugs are always the ones who were sheltered from ultra religious, strict families that abused them for even the smallest offense.

Response to bolded portion:

I have dealt with a fair amount of child abuse situations in my time and I have to tell you, my experience shows this to be absolutely false.  The worst beatings I have seen do not come from people with even a moderate religious foundation.  On a good day it’s a minimal foundation.  Does it happen?  Of course it does.  Does it happen on a scale large enough to even entertain this statement?  Not from what I have seen.

If I misunderstood your intent in this statement, I apologize.

[yeshuaisiam]

Being a parent that spanks, I view this as a non-issue and not up for debate.

There's an old saying - "Those who have no children know best how to raise them."

I have 5 children.  I was raised in a family with 5 children.  There are people at my wife's church with 9, 13, 10, 7, and 4 children.  They all spank, and their children are wonderfully behaved.

Amish and Mennonite children are most often spanked, and are incredibly well behaved too.

[Asteriktos]

There's an old saying - "Those who have no children know best how to raise them."

My experience as a parent was that the worst advice always came--and came often--from family members who were already parents. I learned more about raising a baby from those "what to expect when you're expecting" type books than I did from my parents, and it wasn't for lack of talking with my parents.  

[choy]

Spanking isn't just about getting them to behave, but also getting them to realize that doing the wrong thing has consequences.  And I'd rather them learn those consequences by my hand rather than from someone else's who wouldn't treat them with love.

[Asteriktos]

Spanking isn't just about getting them to behave, but also getting them to realize that doing the wrong thing has consequences.  And I'd rather them learn those consequences by my hand rather than from someone else's who wouldn't treat them with love.

That's why I didn't spank them... (at least in theory)

[choy]

Spanking isn't just about getting them to behave, but also getting them to realize that doing the wrong thing has consequences.  And I'd rather them learn those consequences by my hand rather than from someone else's who wouldn't treat them with love.

That's why I didn't spank them... (at least in theory)

Because they are behaved?  Or because you didn't want them to know about the consequences?

[Asteriktos]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

[choy]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

[rakovsky]

Good for you, Астериктос!

Stay strong.

[Shanghaiski]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

It must be different in Canada. Here, our prisons aren't luxury hotels--though the ignorant often claim they are.

[vamrat]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

It must be different in Canada. Here, our prisons aren't luxury hotels--though the ignorant often claim they are.

I'm dating a jail guard right now.  They don't sound like luxury hotels but I'd almost rather be in jail than work in one.

[tweety234]

There's an old saying - "Those who have no children know best how to raise them."

My experience as a parent was that the worst advice always came--and came often--from family members who were already parents. I learned more about raising a baby from those "what to expect when you're expecting" type books than I did from my parents, and it wasn't for lack of talking with my parents.  

i agree. But why do you think that happens?

[tweety234]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?

[primuspilus]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?

So therefore, punish nothing?

PP

[tweety234]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?

So therefore, punish nothing?

PP

Your complaints to Jesus who commanded this. I am not his Judge. I am his creation.

[rakovsky]

I'm dating a jail guard right now.  They don't sound like luxury hotels but I'd almost rather be in jail than work in one.

Wow. The work is really that bad?

[vamrat]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?

So therefore, punish nothing?

PP

Your complaints to Jesus who commanded this. I am not his Judge. I am his creation.

Blame it on Jesus.  Works good if you're the Sanhedrin. 

[Kerdy]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?

Are you casting the first stone?

[tweety234]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?

So therefore, punish nothing?

PP

Your complaints to Jesus who commanded this. I am not his Judge. I am his creation.

Blame it on Jesus.  Works good if you're the Sanhedrin. 

I am not blaming anything on jesus. I simply said if that guy has issues with this command of jesus, he better complain to jesus directly. Noit me.

[tweety234]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?

Are you casting the first stone?

I wouldn't even cast the last.

[JamesR]

It's no surprise that the worst children I ever see come from postmodern liberal parents who read parenting books and try out all sorts of new crap that doesn't work. Old-fashioned parents may be unsophisticated, outdated and harsh, but it seems to work better--at least until the teenage years. Then their children want to misbehave, get pregnant and do drugs to tick off their parents in reaction to the harshness they faced from them as smaller children.

[tweety234]

at least until the teenage years. Then their children want to misbehave, get pregnant and do drugs to tick off their parents in reaction to the harshness they faced from them as smaller children.

This is something every rational person wants to avoid. Unfortunately though, most people have psychiatric issues, that they don't even admit to themselves, and use violence, and they wonder why our society is in such a mess.

For what it's worth. I have never read any parenting book. I am speaking from experience. But I have also heard the Christ saying something like this.

"Do unto others as you would have them do to you".

[Kerdy]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?

Are you casting the first stone?

I wouldn't even cast the last.

I suppose it’s all in one’s perspective.

[tweety234]

Also I think people who promote physical attacks on children, are usually (not always) just 98% of the time. Are the same people that will sue you and put some sauce on it, to get you as deeper into jail as possible, if you make the mistake to give them as much as a light smack in the face, for throwing tantrums. Now I haven't personally done that to anyone. But It has been my observation.

why do you disagree?

[tweety234]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?

Are you casting the first stone?

I wouldn't even cast the last.

I suppose it’s all in one’s perspective.

what do you mean?

[rakovsky]

Also I think people who promote physical attacks on children, are usually (not always) just 98% of the time. Are the same people that will sue you and put some sauce on it, to get you as deeper into jail as possible, if you make the mistake to give them as much as a light smack in the face, for throwing tantrums. Now I haven't personally done that to anyone. But It has been my observation.

Makes sense. They are quick to dish out whippings to kids one third their own size, and if someone else has a conflict with them, they will react in the same way three times as strong, maybe punch you out or something, and think it's cool. After all, whipping little kids is a way for them to release their sociopathic rage bottled up, and they've had many years of being treated this way themselves.

Too bad they can't just go to the gym and take antibiotics to treat the worms/demons in their brains. Then see a Finnish priest who will tell them the beatings done to them were wrong. Then relax with some Comedy Central.

[Kerdy]

Also I think people who promote physical attacks on children, are usually (not always) just 98% of the time. Are the same people that will sue you and put some sauce on it, to get you as deeper into jail as possible, if you make the mistake to give them as much as a light smack in the face, for throwing tantrums. Now I haven't personally done that to anyone. But It has been my observation.

Makes sense. They are quick to dish out whippings to kids one third their own size, and if someone else has a conflict with them, they will react in the same way three times as strong, maybe punch you out or something, and think it's cool. After all, whipping little kids is a way for them to release their sociopathic rage bottled up, and they've had many years of being treated this way themselves.

Too bad they can't just go to the gym and take antibiotics to treat the worms/demons in their brains. Then see a Finnish priest who will tell them the beatings done to them were wrong. Then relax with some Comedy Central.

I have read some convoluted and torturous codswallop in my day, but this rates in the top ten.  Where do you conjure up such preposterous and ridiculous ideas?

[rakovsky]

It's no surprise that the worst children I ever see come from postmodern liberal parents who read parenting books and try out all sorts of new crap that doesn't work. Old-fashioned parents may be unsophisticated, outdated and harsh, but it seems to work better--at least until the teenage years. Then their children want to misbehave, get pregnant and do drugs to tick off their parents in reaction to the harshness they faced from them as smaller children.

The second part makes sense. But I don't think that the soft parents have the worst children. The worst ones are those whose children do not care. My outgoing grandfather told me about how in the 1930's he was a in Sunday School and the older children told him they were going to put him in the boiler. And he really believed it and was very scared. We are talking about the 1930's, when it was common for parents to be violent and over-punish their kids.

The worst kids are those whose parents are bad and violent or do not care about them. The Apple Does not Fall Far From the Tree.

(Remember the statistics I posted about San Quention inmates' upbringings)

[rakovsky]

Makes sense. They are quick to dish out whippings to kids one third their own size, and if someone else has a conflict with them, they will react in the same way three times as strong, maybe punch you out or something, and think it's cool. After all, whipping little kids is a way for them to release their sociopathic rage bottled up, and they've had many years of being treated this way themselves.

Too bad they can't just go to the gym and take antibiotics to treat the worms/demons in their brains. Then see a Finnish priest who will tell them the beatings done to them were wrong. Then relax with some Comedy Central.

I have read some convoluted and torturous codswallop in my day, but this rates in the top ten.  Where do you conjure up such preposterous and ridiculous ideas?

You mean the idea that abusive parents have demons or treatable mental illness?

[Kerdy]

The worst kids are those whose parents are bad and violent or do not care about them. The Apple Does not Fall Far From the Tree.

Even though this statement is not entirely accurate, I will not debate it and instead focus on the fact it has nothing to do with proper implementation of spanking.  However, there are many parents who actually don't care of their children.  If they did, they wouldn’t allow them to run amuck.

[Kerdy]

Makes sense. They are quick to dish out whippings to kids one third their own size, and if someone else has a conflict with them, they will react in the same way three times as strong, maybe punch you out or something, and think it's cool. After all, whipping little kids is a way for them to release their sociopathic rage bottled up, and they've had many years of being treated this way themselves.

Too bad they can't just go to the gym and take antibiotics to treat the worms/demons in their brains. Then see a Finnish priest who will tell them the beatings done to them were wrong. Then relax with some Comedy Central.

I have read some convoluted and torturous codswallop in my day, but this rates in the top ten.  Where do you conjure up such preposterous and ridiculous ideas?

You mean the idea that abusive parents have demons or treatable mental illness?

I mean all of it.  You are terribly detached from the truth.  You aren’t even in the ball park.  The percentage of people who spank their kids, to which your assertion applies, is so infinitesimal, it’s embarrassing.

You attempt to proclaim people who spank their children properly, are in the same category as those who abuse and beat their children.  Then you continue to state those same parents suffer from mental illness.  Your statement is, and I apologize for my shortness, asinine.

There is a big difference between disagreeing with/not utilizing spanking and attempting to demonize those who do with wild and irrational accusations.

[rakovsky]

.

[rakovsky]

Makes sense. They are quick to dish out whippings to kids one third their own size, and if someone else has a conflict with them, they will react in the same way three times as strong, maybe punch you out or something, and think it's cool. After all, whipping little kids is a way for them to release their sociopathic rage bottled up, and they've had many years of being treated this way themselves.

Too bad they can't just go to the gym and take antibiotics to treat the worms/demons in their brains. Then see a Finnish priest who will tell them the beatings done to them were wrong. Then relax with some Comedy Central.

I have read some convoluted and torturous codswallop in my day, but this rates in the top ten.  Where do you conjure up such preposterous and ridiculous ideas?

You mean the idea that abusive parents have demons or treatable mental illness?

I mean all of it.  You are terribly detached from the truth.  You aren’t even in the ball park.  The percentage of people who spank their kids, to which your assertion applies, is so infinitesimal, it’s embarrassing.

You attempt to proclaim people who spank their children properly, are in the same category as those who abuse and beat their children.  Then you continue to state those same parents suffer from mental illness.  Your statement is, and I apologize for my shortness, asinine.

There is a big difference between disagreeing with/not utilizing spanking and attempting to demonize those who do with wild and irrational accusations.

Tweety was talking about people who "physically attack" children as punishment. When I think of a "physical attack" punishment on a child, I think of a very painful act that comes on quickly.

Yes, if a person's way is to be quickly angry and is quick to judge and punish little children in a hard, painful way, it is from demons, mental illness, or some other mental or spiritual problem the person has.

[choy]

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?

Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15

Moreso, disciplining a child is different from judging a person.  Every parent has a great responsibility over their children that they be brought up correctly.

[rakovsky]

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. He said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15

Jesus' statement "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" was a reference to an Old Testament commandment to stone people as punishment.

Likewise, when you find an Old Testament statement to cane children, it is a good question how Jesus would have dealt with this statement in a more compassionate way.

[choy]

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. He said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15

Jesus' statement "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" was a reference to an Old Testament commandment to stone people as punishment.

Likewise, when you find an Old Testament statement to cane children, it is a good question how Jesus would have dealt with this statement in a more compassionate way.

How is stoning one to death even remotely a comparison to spanking your children?

[rakovsky]

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. He said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15

Jesus' statement "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" was a reference to an Old Testament commandment to stone people as punishment.

Likewise, when you find an Old Testament statement to cane children, it is a good question how Jesus would have dealt with this statement in a more compassionate way.

How is stoning one to death even remotely a comparison to spanking your children?

Not just "spanking", but caning with a rod.

They are both Old Testament punishments, and we beseech our Father in Heaven to be merciful to us just his children as we are merciful to others. The relation that we have with our Father in Heaven where we ask Him to forgive us and stay His wrath reflects the ideal one with our children.

[choy]

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. He said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15

Jesus' statement "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" was a reference to an Old Testament commandment to stone people as punishment.

Likewise, when you find an Old Testament statement to cane children, it is a good question how Jesus would have dealt with this statement in a more compassionate way.

How is stoning one to death even remotely a comparison to spanking your children?

Not just "spanking", but caning with a rod.

They are both Old Testament punishments, and we beseech our Father in Heaven to be merciful to us just his children as we are merciful to others - foremost our own.

Hebrews 12:6-8

[rakovsky]

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. He said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15

Jesus' statement "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" was a reference to an Old Testament commandment to stone people as punishment.

Likewise, when you find an Old Testament statement to cane children, it is a good question how Jesus would have dealt with this statement in a more compassionate way.

How is stoning one to death even remotely a comparison to spanking your children?

Not just "spanking", but caning with a rod.

They are both Old Testament punishments, and we beseech our Father in Heaven to be merciful to us just his children as we are merciful to others - foremost our own.

Hebrews 12:6-8

Luke 6:36

[choy]

Isaiah 53:5

Wow!  Okay, I fold!  Kids, do what you want now!  Don't clean up your toys, shout at mommy all you like!  Throw your milk on the floor, watch TV all you like!

[rakovsky]

Isaiah 53:5

Wow!  Okay, I fold!  Kids, do what you want now!  Don't clean up your toys, shout at mommy all you like!  Throw your milk on the floor, watch TV all you like!

Just because He forgives us for breaking the rules as we beg Him to does not mean the rules don't exist.

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