OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 20, 2014, 01:20:50 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: do you spank your kids?  (Read 9970 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« on: December 02, 2012, 12:18:12 AM »

Do you spank your kids, or are against?

Personally I am 100% against.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2012, 12:34:48 AM »

Yes I did, and all three turned out quite well.  Personally, I really don't care whether you are for or against the practice.  I just hope that I don't have to shoot one of your kids one day because you didn't do your job raising them.  How is that for an opinion.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 12:36:34 AM by Punch » Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2012, 12:41:14 AM »

Do you spank your kids, or are against?

Personally I am 100% against.
Personally, do you have kids?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2012, 12:42:35 AM »

Yes I did, and all three turned out quite well.  Personally, I really don't care whether you are for or against the practice.  I just hope that I don't have to shoot one of your kids one day because you didn't do your job raising them.  How is that for an opinion.
Never did, but wasn't against it.  The need just never presented itself.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2012, 12:54:34 AM »

In principle I'm generally against it as I don't think it's a productive method of discipline. Or maybe I just have a bad association of it because an abusive step-father used it on me. Though when I went to elementary school the principle paddled me more than once, and I don't have an issue with that (though of course that wouldn't happen today because the parents would sue or something). I don't think badly of people who spank their kids, I just think there are usually better solutions. The fact that I had girls (and petite girls at that) made our decision not to spank easier. However, despite this decision not to spank, we did sometimes spank them for lack of a better solution in a particular moment.
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2012, 03:00:12 AM »

Spank my girls rarely, as a last resort. More often it's when they hit each other, which has become infrequent. I think it works when they are young but about 6-7  there's rarely ever a need or use for it.. We have a baby boy now and I'm hoping that we've learned from our mistakes a bit with each kid... We are both more patient now.

Punch, I like your response. Namby pamby judgementalism doesn't fly. There is a use for spanking with patience and love. Time outs work to a point. Spanking works to a point. Love must be the driving force or nothing works. Anger should never take precedence. Prayer prevails.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:01:11 AM by simplygermain » Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2012, 03:02:42 AM »

Do you spank your kids, or are against?

Personally I am 100% against.
Personally, do you have kids?

This.
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2012, 06:16:59 AM »

When they need it and wish more people would.  I believe our "kinder/gentler" approach does not benefit our children.

BTW - Asteriktos, I am digging your new avatar.  "FIRE IT IN!"
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2012, 06:26:22 AM »

Yes I did, and all three turned out quite well.  Personally, I really don't care whether you are for or against the practice.  I just hope that I don't have to shoot one of your kids one day because you didn't do your job raising them.  How is that for an opinion.
This owns.

And coming from a cape buffalo, even better.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,123


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2012, 07:03:45 AM »

When they need it and wish more people would.  I believe our "kinder/gentler" approach does not benefit our children.

BTW - Asteriktos, I am digging your new avatar.  "FIRE IT IN!"

Do you also promote physical attacks on adults who step out of line, or just people you know you can take?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 07:04:06 AM by JamesRottnek » Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2012, 07:07:15 AM »

When they need it and wish more people would.  I believe our "kinder/gentler" approach does not benefit our children.

BTW - Asteriktos, I am digging your new avatar.  "FIRE IT IN!"

Do you also promote physical attacks on adults who step out of line, or just people you know you can take?

Do you really expect a thoughtful response to this ingenuous post?
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,123


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2012, 07:10:37 AM »

When they need it and wish more people would.  I believe our "kinder/gentler" approach does not benefit our children.

BTW - Asteriktos, I am digging your new avatar.  "FIRE IT IN!"

Do you also promote physical attacks on adults who step out of line, or just people you know you can take?

Do you really expect a thoughtful response to this ingenuous post?

I'm wondering if you actually know what 'ingenuous' means?  All ingenuous posts deserve a thoughtful, honest, response.

I really recommend you review the meaning of the word, there are many online sources by which to do this.  Merriam-Webster, for instance, has an online dictionary, and there is also dictionary.com

P.S., I find it hilarious that you would use a word that once meant, essentially, noble, to suggest that my post is unworthy of thoughtful response.

EDIT: And no, I do not expect a thoughtful response from you.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 07:11:05 AM by JamesRottnek » Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2012, 07:19:12 AM »

I'm wondering if you actually know what 'ingenuous' means?  All ingenuous posts deserve a thoughtful, honest, response.
-obsolete: Noble, Honorable
-showing childlike simplicity
-lacking craft or subtlety

I really recommend you review the meaning of the word, there are many online sources by which to do this.  Merriam-Webster, for instance, has an online dictionary, and there is also dictionary.com
 
See above

P.S., I find it hilarious that you would use a word that once meant, essentially, noble, to suggest that my post is unworthy of thoughtful response.
 
You may want to take your own advice and research the definition yourself, from the source you supplied.  

EDIT: And no, I do not expect a thoughtful response from you.
Good.  When I provide them, you usually revert to some sort of childish (thus the word I used previously) response from a narrow viewpoint fueled by ideology, it’s wasted.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 07:20:37 AM by Kerdy » Logged
KBN1
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: EO
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 888



« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2012, 09:51:11 AM »

Whoa, the vibe in here is pretty snarky.  It is Sunday morning, let us love one another.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2012, 11:09:23 AM »

The Magazine Christianity Today has sometimes hosted Orthodox articles like "Q & A: Bishop Kallistos Ware on the Fullness and the Center". http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/july/fullnesscenter.html
The Magazine wrote an editorial on the subject, recommending avoiding hitting children:

Quote
Thou Shalt Not Abuse: Reconsidering Spanking

A Christianity Today editorial

On his blog, Webb notes that the [abusive] Pearls are surely more literal in applying [Old Testament] Scripture's parenting rules than [more "mainstream" advocates of hitting like] Dobson and others are. After all, the [OT] Bible does not put age limits on the rod, and seems to explicitly repudiate the repeated admonishment not to leave a bruise. "Blows and wounds scrub away evil," Proverbs 20:30 says, "and beatings purge the inmost being."

[Like Webb] We also believe it is more consistent with the full counsel of Scripture—in short, more biblical—to provide relief to people in pain than to actually "give strong drink to him who is perishing, and wine to him whose life is bitter" (Prov. 31:6, NASB). In the same way, it is more biblical to understand the praise of "the rod" as a reference to discipline than to limit its application to physical blows.

Mohler seems to miss the point that the consequences of human disobedience are legion, and that God's first and ultimate response to his children's rebellion is not to treat them violently. The Bible never forbids spanking. But Webb's case is convincing that the Bible does not require it. Given the risks involved—children's bodies are more fragile that an angry adult can fathom—we encourage parents to explore more creative and effective ways to train up our children in the way they should go.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/january/editorial-spanking-abuse.html?start=2
Logged
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2012, 12:07:56 PM »

Yes I did, and all three turned out quite well.  Personally, I really don't care whether you are for or against the practice.  I just hope that I don't have to shoot one of your kids one day because you didn't do your job raising them.  How is that for an opinion.
This owns.

And coming from a cape buffalo, even better.
seconded
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,996


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 01:53:07 PM »

When they need it and wish more people would.  I believe our "kinder/gentler" approach does not benefit our children.

BTW - Asteriktos, I am digging your new avatar.  "FIRE IT IN!"

Do you also promote physical attacks on adults who step out of line, or just people you know you can take?

Most children around the age of ten or below--arguably a little younger or older depending on the specific child--lack the cognitive functions to understand any reasoning or "compromise" that you might try to make with them, thus, explaining to them why something is dangerous or harmful may not be entirely effective in preventing them from doing it again--thus leading to the endangerment of their health. In which case, I think that a rear-whipping might work wonders, pain speaks louder, it's the universal language that everyone of all ages understands. If your child does not understand your reasoning, then you can still be sure in most cases that they won't do the same bad/dangerous action again if you spank them for it because they are afraid of getting spanked again. Sure, it's a very primitive ethical disposition, but natural for children their age and most people outgrow it. I think Kohlberg mentioned it or something. Anyway, I'd argue that spanking works for children up until their cognitive abilities develop enough where you can reason with them and explain why something is bad, at that point I would say spanking becomes impractical.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 03:03:14 PM »

Whoa, the vibe in here is pretty snarky.  It is Sunday morning, let us love one another.

A kind word and a gun accomplishes more than a kind word alone.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 03:10:04 PM »

If I've amounted to anything, it's probably been in spite of rather than because of physical discipline as a child. The holy fathers who speak of raising children, as opposed to those who misinterpret the Scriptures in order to justify themselves, emphasize the good example and prayers of parents as being more necessary and effective than lectures and physical discipline. Corrective words and actions also need to be separated from anger lest they produce worse results. In short, before a spanking, parents need first to employ other means. That said, physical discipline may still be necessary in some cases.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14,698



WWW
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 03:27:51 PM »

Whoa, the vibe in here is pretty snarky.  It is Sunday morning, let us love one another.

A kind word and a gun accomplishes more than a kind word alone.

Yeah: more shootings.
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2012, 03:29:40 PM »

Whoa, the vibe in here is pretty snarky.  It is Sunday morning, let us love one another.

A kind word and a gun accomplishes more than a kind word alone.

Yeah: more shootings.

Well, the gun doesn't have to be fired or even loaded.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14,698



WWW
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2012, 03:31:47 PM »

Whoa, the vibe in here is pretty snarky.  It is Sunday morning, let us love one another.

A kind word and a gun accomplishes more than a kind word alone.

Yeah: more shootings.

Well, the gun doesn't have to be fired or even loaded.

Just brandishing a gun, even an empty one, is usually enough to get you arrested. I've seen almost every episode of "Cops."

 Embarrassed
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2012, 04:23:07 PM »

Whoa, the vibe in here is pretty snarky.  It is Sunday morning, let us love one another.

A kind word and a gun accomplishes more than a kind word alone.

Yeah: more shootings.

Well, the gun doesn't have to be fired or even loaded.

Just brandishing a gun, even an empty one, is usually enough to get you arrested. I've seen almost every episode of "Cops."

 Embarrassed

LOL. That's assuming one does it in public. That's just stupid. If one is going to brandish a gun for purposes of intimidation and/or extracting needed information or compliance, standard practice is to have the person whose help you require tied to a chair in one's basement. Sadly, ever since the government lightbulb ban, one isn't always able to have a good bright light to shine in the person's face.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,123


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2012, 05:19:44 PM »

I'm wondering if you actually know what 'ingenuous' means?  All ingenuous posts deserve a thoughtful, honest, response.
-obsolete: Noble, Honorable
-showing childlike simplicity
-lacking craft or subtlety

I really recommend you review the meaning of the word, there are many online sources by which to do this.  Merriam-Webster, for instance, has an online dictionary, and there is also dictionary.com
 
See above

P.S., I find it hilarious that you would use a word that once meant, essentially, noble, to suggest that my post is unworthy of thoughtful response.
 
You may want to take your own advice and research the definition yourself, from the source you supplied.  

EDIT: And no, I do not expect a thoughtful response from you.
Good.  When I provide them, you usually revert to some sort of childish (thus the word I used previously) response from a narrow viewpoint fueled by ideology, it’s wasted.


It is impossible for you to have seen a response of mine to a thoughtful response of yours, as I've never seen a thoughtful response from you.

Anyways, I'd really like to see the dictionary that defines 'ingenuous' as "showing childlike simplicity."  Merriam-Webster, for instance, tacks onto that phrase "and candidness."  Dictionary.com defines 'ingenuous' as "free from reserve, restraint, or dissimulation; candid; sincere."  Synonyms it lists are "frank, straightforward, open."  Merriam-Webster lists such synonyms as "genuine, honest, innocent, real, sincere, simple, unpretentious."  It lists such antonyms as "artificial, dishonest, insincere, guileful, dissimulating." 

So once more, I assert you do not know the definition of 'ingenuous.'
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2012, 06:54:06 PM »

Do you spank your kids, or are against?

Personally I am 100% against.
Personally, do you have kids?


No. But I have 2 nieces who I am with all the time. I plan on adopting one though. Because I love kids more than adults. I feel I can communicate with them a lot better than with adults.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,996


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2012, 06:57:25 PM »

I'm just going to come flat out and ask it, is old-fashioned parenting--ie, "sparing the rod hur hurr" and "abstinence only education!" really as affective as some people try to make it out to be? It seems like children who came from a highly traditional, religious household--admittedly Protestant opposed to Orthodox--seem to actually develop the most problems during adolescence from what I have observed. It seems like they are always the ones who get duped into having sex because their parents never properly taught them what it was, or they go out purposely to be promiscuous because they want to rebel against their parents and the like. I likewise know a lot of adults who were raised in that type of household who still get counseling to this very day about it and have unresolved, unhealthy relationships with their parents. Don't get me wrong, I support a good whuppin' to the old rear-end every once in a while--it works wonders on my younger siblings--but I still don't know if I agree entirely with the old-fashioned Protestant stereotypical parenting.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2012, 07:04:04 PM »

When they need it and wish more people would.  I believe our "kinder/gentler" approach does not benefit our children.

BTW - Asteriktos, I am digging your new avatar.  "FIRE IT IN!"

Do you also promote physical attacks on adults who step out of line, or just people you know you can take?

I am not sure I get what you mean. However, I am with Jesus 100% on this.

Treat others the way you wish to be treated. I admit I can't follow it all the time. I follow it most of the time though. Unless I am feeling threatened. However, it doesn't happen often thankfully.
Also I think people who promote physical attacks on children, are usually (not always) just 98% of the time. Are the same people that will sue you and put some sauce on it, to get you as deeper into jail as possible, if you make the mistake to give them as much as a light smack in the face, for throwing tantrums. Now I haven't personally done that to anyone. But It has been my observation.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2012, 07:07:14 PM »

Also I think people who promote physical attacks on children, are usually (not always) just 98% of the time. Are the same people that will sue you and put some sauce on it, to get you as deeper into jail as possible, if you make the mistake to give them as much as a light smack in the face, for throwing tantrums. Now I haven't personally done that to anyone. But It has been my observation.

Logged

Large Marge sent me...
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2012, 07:16:58 PM »

The Magazine Christianity Today has sometimes hosted Orthodox articles like "Q & A: Bishop Kallistos Ware on the Fullness and the Center". http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/july/fullnesscenter.html
The Magazine wrote an editorial on the subject, recommending avoiding hitting children:

Quote
Thou Shalt Not Abuse: Reconsidering Spanking

A Christianity Today editorial

On his blog, Webb notes that the [abusive] Pearls are surely more literal in applying [Old Testament] Scripture's parenting rules than [more "mainstream" advocates of hitting like] Dobson and others are. After all, the [OT] Bible does not put age limits on the rod, and seems to explicitly repudiate the repeated admonishment not to leave a bruise. "Blows and wounds scrub away evil," Proverbs 20:30 says, "and beatings purge the inmost being."

[Like Webb] We also believe it is more consistent with the full counsel of Scripture—in short, more biblical—to provide relief to people in pain than to actually "give strong drink to him who is perishing, and wine to him whose life is bitter" (Prov. 31:6, NASB). In the same way, it is more biblical to understand the praise of "the rod" as a reference to discipline than to limit its application to physical blows.

Mohler seems to miss the point that the consequences of human disobedience are legion, and that God's first and ultimate response to his children's rebellion is not to treat them violently. The Bible never forbids spanking. But Webb's case is convincing that the Bible does not require it. Given the risks involved—children's bodies are more fragile that an angry adult can fathom—we encourage parents to explore more creative and effective ways to train up our children in the way they should go.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/january/editorial-spanking-abuse.html?start=2

There are 3 people that I hate with all that i am. The pearls and dobson. I am sure that now that you mentioned them, I will nightmares in my sleep. Because of these beasts. The people have no love whatsoever in their hearts.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,996


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2012, 07:19:01 PM »

Protestants have this weird fetish or something for spanking children
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2012, 07:20:33 PM »

Whoa, the vibe in here is pretty snarky.  It is Sunday morning, let us love one another.

A kind word and a gun accomplishes more than a kind word alone.

I will agree only if this includes adults too. If it doesn't. I disagree 100%
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2012, 07:23:31 PM »

Whoa, the vibe in here is pretty snarky.  It is Sunday morning, let us love one another.

A kind word and a gun accomplishes more than a kind word alone.

Yeah: more shootings.

Well, the gun doesn't have to be fired or even loaded.

Just brandishing a gun, even an empty one, is usually enough to get you arrested. I've seen almost every episode of "Cops."

 Embarrassed


Also, remember thou shall not kill. Especially when you claim to be a member of the true church of Christ. Who died for our sake instead of killing us.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2012, 07:28:48 PM »

Protestants have this weird fetish or something for spanking children

90% of parents do have that "fetish". are you sayng that 90% are protestants.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2012, 07:40:10 PM »

Protestants have this weird fetish or something for spanking children

90% of parents do have that "fetish".

Most people would consider it a hard limit...
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2012, 07:42:24 PM »

Protestants have this weird fetish or something for spanking children

90% of parents do have that "fetish".

Most people would consider it a hard limit...

Do you have a safety word? Ours is "No, Daddy! I'm sorry!!!"
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2012, 07:52:23 PM »

It is the philosophical position of many that in a TPE (total power exchange) there should be no safety word. The slave must trust the master to stop when appropriate.  Cool
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2012, 07:53:30 PM »

Protestants have this weird fetish or something for spanking children

90% of parents do have that "fetish".

Most people would consider it a hard limit...

Do you have a safety word? Ours is "No, Daddy! I'm sorry!!!"

which is an answer to what? and by the way. I don't expect anything better from a cynical.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2012, 07:55:53 PM »

It is the philosophical position of many that in a TPE (total power exchange) there should be no safety word. The slave must trust the master to stop when appropriate.  Cool

We are not talking about slavery here. apparently this person is raising slaves though.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Mokek Kwe
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 66



« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2012, 08:00:54 PM »

I do not believe that spanking is Christlike or effective in our home. I have spanked my child a few times, but it absolutely does not allign with my parenting values. I have become more self-disciplined lately (thanks to God), and haven't spanked in a long time.  Instead, I try to set boundaries for my child and talk her through things. She's 3.5 now (and we are going through- so far- the most difficult developmental stage yet, ugh!) and very able to express her feelings. Overall, I feel our approach works- we strive to give her grace and understanding- structure and boundaries without being punitive or permissive.
As parents, we all have rough moments and we are all on a journey of self-discovery.  It's never too late to change the dynamic of your home.
Logged

Baptized with my husband and our four year old daughter on May 4, 2013
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2012, 08:03:35 PM »

"Raising slaves". An interesting way to put it. Can a minor truly consent to slavery in such a context? But then this gets at the root of the problem--can anyone consent to such a relationship? Of course I am not speaking legally, as there is no question that it is not permitted. We are speaking of mere agreement between people here. Is it more untenable for a minor? I would argue yes, definitely. But then we are dealing with a subculture that has things like consensual-nonconsent, so it's a generally murky area to begin with.
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2012, 08:06:03 PM »

Do you spank your kids, or are against?

Personally I am 100% against.
Personally, do you have kids?


No. But I have 2 nieces who I am with all the time. I plan on adopting one though. Because I love kids more than adults. I feel I can communicate with them a lot better than with adults.
my warning signals just went off.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2012, 08:07:14 PM »

Protestants have this weird fetish or something for spanking children

90% of parents do have that "fetish".

Most people would consider it a hard limit...

what do you mean by hard limit?
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2012, 08:10:47 PM »

Protestants have this weird fetish or something for spanking children

90% of parents do have that "fetish".

Most people would consider it a hard limit...

what do you mean by hard limit?

Something that you are not willing or able to participate in. For example I have various hard limits related to acts that could cause long term or permanent physical markings or disfigurement (e.g., knife play, slave registry, etc.)
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,996


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2012, 08:34:22 PM »

I had to spank my little sister a few weeks ago for the very first time. It was horrible. I hated it and hope that I never have to do it again. I can definitely see why some parents wouldn't want to spank their children, but then again, sometimes it is all that works.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2012, 08:50:06 PM »

I'm wondering if you actually know what 'ingenuous' means?  All ingenuous posts deserve a thoughtful, honest, response.
-obsolete: Noble, Honorable
-showing childlike simplicity
-lacking craft or subtlety

I really recommend you review the meaning of the word, there are many online sources by which to do this.  Merriam-Webster, for instance, has an online dictionary, and there is also dictionary.com
 
See above

P.S., I find it hilarious that you would use a word that once meant, essentially, noble, to suggest that my post is unworthy of thoughtful response.
 
You may want to take your own advice and research the definition yourself, from the source you supplied.  

EDIT: And no, I do not expect a thoughtful response from you.
Good.  When I provide them, you usually revert to some sort of childish (thus the word I used previously) response from a narrow viewpoint fueled by ideology, it’s wasted.


It is impossible for you to have seen a response of mine to a thoughtful response of yours, as I've never seen a thoughtful response from you.

Anyways, I'd really like to see the dictionary that defines 'ingenuous' as "showing childlike simplicity."  Merriam-Webster, for instance, tacks onto that phrase "and candidness."  Dictionary.com defines 'ingenuous' as "free from reserve, restraint, or dissimulation; candid; sincere."  Synonyms it lists are "frank, straightforward, open."  Merriam-Webster lists such synonyms as "genuine, honest, innocent, real, sincere, simple, unpretentious."  It lists such antonyms as "artificial, dishonest, insincere, guileful, dissimulating." 

So once more, I assert you do not know the definition of 'ingenuous.'
Roll Eyes

Boring!  Moving on...
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2012, 08:53:36 PM »

Whoa, the vibe in here is pretty snarky.  It is Sunday morning, let us love one another.

A kind word and a gun accomplishes more than a kind word alone.

Yeah: more shootings.

Well, the gun doesn't have to be fired or even loaded.

Just brandishing a gun, even an empty one, is usually enough to get you arrested. I've seen almost every episode of "Cops."

 Embarrassed


Also, remember thou shall not kill. Especially when you claim to be a member of the true church of Christ. Who died for our sake instead of killing us.

Apparently my attempts at sarcasm are being lost. Should I try harder?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2012, 08:56:49 PM »

Do you spank your kids, or are against?

Personally I am 100% against.
Personally, do you have kids?


No. But I have 2 nieces who I am with all the time. I plan on adopting one though. Because I love kids more than adults. I feel I can communicate with them a lot better than with adults.
my warning signals just went off.


How did they go off?
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Sinful Hypocrite
Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos Ware: "We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not; and so we must refrain from passing judgment on non-Orthodox Christians."
Posts: 1,881


Great googly moogly!


« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2012, 09:16:39 PM »

No, but I will spank your kids. Cheesy
Logged

The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2012, 09:28:10 PM »

Protestants have this weird fetish or something for spanking children

90% of parents do have that "fetish".

Most people would consider it a hard limit...

Do you have a safety word? Ours is "No, Daddy! I'm sorry!!!"

which is an answer to what? and by the way. I don't expect anything better from a cynical.

I was kidding. This is a thread about spankings, and someone said parent's have a fetish (presumably from a non-parent). So, I played along with the spanking fetish (bondage; S&M) and brought up safety words.

Now that I've explained the joke, you may laugh.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2012, 10:50:55 PM »

I had to spank my little sister a few weeks ago for the very first time. It was horrible. I hated it and hope that I never have to do it again. I can definitely see why some parents wouldn't want to spank their children, but then again, sometimes it is all that works.
Your little sister?
Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2012, 11:19:47 PM »

No, but I will spank your kids. Cheesy
I remember those days.  Then get one at home because someone else had to do it.
Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2012, 11:24:26 PM »

Some kids behave and never need a spanking.  Some only need one occasionally.  Some need them on a regular basis.  Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective.  Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment.  Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents.  A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening.  No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 11:25:25 PM by Kerdy » Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,123


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2012, 11:39:13 PM »

I'm wondering if you actually know what 'ingenuous' means?  All ingenuous posts deserve a thoughtful, honest, response.
-obsolete: Noble, Honorable
-showing childlike simplicity
-lacking craft or subtlety

I really recommend you review the meaning of the word, there are many online sources by which to do this.  Merriam-Webster, for instance, has an online dictionary, and there is also dictionary.com
 
See above

P.S., I find it hilarious that you would use a word that once meant, essentially, noble, to suggest that my post is unworthy of thoughtful response.
 
You may want to take your own advice and research the definition yourself, from the source you supplied.  

EDIT: And no, I do not expect a thoughtful response from you.
Good.  When I provide them, you usually revert to some sort of childish (thus the word I used previously) response from a narrow viewpoint fueled by ideology, it’s wasted.


It is impossible for you to have seen a response of mine to a thoughtful response of yours, as I've never seen a thoughtful response from you.

Anyways, I'd really like to see the dictionary that defines 'ingenuous' as "showing childlike simplicity."  Merriam-Webster, for instance, tacks onto that phrase "and candidness."  Dictionary.com defines 'ingenuous' as "free from reserve, restraint, or dissimulation; candid; sincere."  Synonyms it lists are "frank, straightforward, open."  Merriam-Webster lists such synonyms as "genuine, honest, innocent, real, sincere, simple, unpretentious."  It lists such antonyms as "artificial, dishonest, insincere, guileful, dissimulating." 

So once more, I assert you do not know the definition of 'ingenuous.'
Roll Eyes

Boring!  Moving on...

Should I take this as "Oh, you are right; evidently I do not know as much as I think.  I give up on this argument, because I'm obviously wrong."
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,123


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2012, 11:41:01 PM »

Some kids behave and never need a spanking.  Some only need one occasionally.  Some need them on a regular basis.  Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective.  Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment.  Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents.  A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening.  No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age?  Is it because the child is then capable of fighting back?  Do you only disapprove of "spanking" (which is really just a nice way of saying "assaulting") children, and not adults, because you're too cowardly to assault someone who is your physical equal or better?
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2012, 11:42:22 PM »

Some kids behave and never need a spanking.  Some only need one occasionally.  Some need them on a regular basis.  Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective.  Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment.  Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents.  A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening.  No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age?  Is it because the child is then capable of fighting back?  Do you only disapprove of "spanking" (which is really just a nice way of saying "assaulting") children, and not adults, because you're too cowardly to assault someone who is your physical equal or better?
Roll Eyes
Boring!  Moving on...
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,123


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2012, 12:08:14 AM »

Some kids behave and never need a spanking.  Some only need one occasionally.  Some need them on a regular basis.  Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective.  Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment.  Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents.  A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening.  No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age?  Is it because the child is then capable of fighting back?  Do you only disapprove of "spanking" (which is really just a nice way of saying "assaulting") children, and not adults, because you're too cowardly to assault someone who is your physical equal or better?
Roll Eyes
Boring!  Moving on...

In other words, "I cannot really dispute the question, and so I will ignore it."
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2012, 12:13:34 AM »

Some kids behave and never need a spanking.  Some only need one occasionally.  Some need them on a regular basis.  Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective.  Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment.  Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents.  A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening.  No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age?  Is it because the child is then capable of fighting back?
 
No, they are quite capable of fighting back at the spanking age.  After a certain age though you would have to move up to caning.
Do you only disapprove of "spanking" (which is really just a nice way of saying "assaulting")
not if it is done right.
children, and not adults, because you're too cowardly to assault someone who is your physical equal or better?
Some adults call for the crap being beat out of them.  But the one administering it has to be an equal, better won't do.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,996


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2012, 12:24:09 AM »

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age?

I don't know whether or not it is still "effective" after a certain age, but what I do know is that it becomes unnecessary after a certain age, when the child's cognitive abilities develop to the extent where having to use physical pain to prevent them from doing something harmful becomes unnecessary since you can simply just explain to them why the action in question is dangerous/harmful. But before they reach this age, physical discipline is good because it acts as a deterrent to keep them from doing certain things that would harm them, since even though they may not exactly be capable of understanding why they cannot do it at the moment, they will still refrain from doing it out of fear of getting spanked again.

I had to spank my little sister a few weeks ago for the very first time. It was horrible. I hated it and hope that I never have to do it again. I can definitely see why some parents wouldn't want to spank their children, but then again, sometimes it is all that works.
Your little sister?

I practically raise her when my parents aren't around.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 12:25:11 AM by JamesR » Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2012, 01:27:54 AM »

Past a certain age physical punishment only makes things worse. At least that's how I feel when my dad threatens to beat me as a 17 year old.

Little kids, though, sure.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2012, 01:37:49 AM »

Past a certain age physical punishment only makes things worse. At least that's how I feel when my dad threatens to beat me as a 17 year old.

Little kids, though, sure.
Sorry to hear that. My father was/is the scariest guy when he is angry. There was an incident that he grabbed me by the arm for not completing a homework assignment in AP Lit. That memory still haunts me.

He's considerably calmed down now, although I am still intimidated by him. I'm a pretty sensitive guy which is probably because of a lack of a true father figure that disciplined. Hed be on business trips alot so I was around my mother alot more.

However I am happy how I turned out. I have alot more heart than most men out there. I have surprised alot of women by not being a jackass, but that's thanks to actually loving my mother. Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Anyway I would want to raise my kids so there never comes an opportunity for a spanking.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2012, 02:48:31 AM »

Past a certain age physical punishment only makes things worse. At least that's how I feel when my dad threatens to beat me as a 17 year old.

Little kids, though, sure.
Sorry to hear that. My father was/is the scariest guy when he is angry. There was an incident that he grabbed me by the arm for not completing a homework assignment in AP Lit. That memory still haunts me.

He's considerably calmed down now, although I am still intimidated by him. I'm a pretty sensitive guy which is probably because of a lack of a true father figure that disciplined. Hed be on business trips alot so I was around my mother alot more.

However I am happy how I turned out. I have alot more heart than most men out there. I have surprised alot of women by not being a jackass, but that's thanks to actually loving my mother. Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Anyway I would want to raise my kids so there never comes an opportunity for a spanking.
I hope you can, but don't ignore spanking completely.  As a last resort is the usual means.  Kids know the difference between correction and beating.  My father hardly ever spanked me, but I knew he would and when he did, he made sure I didn't want another.  I never feared him, but I knew clearly where the line was drawn.
Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2012, 02:50:38 AM »

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age?

I don't know whether or not it is still "effective" after a certain age, but what I do know is that it becomes unnecessary after a certain age, when the child's cognitive abilities develop to the extent where having to use physical pain to prevent them from doing something harmful becomes unnecessary since you can simply just explain to them why the action in question is dangerous/harmful. But before they reach this age, physical discipline is good because it acts as a deterrent to keep them from doing certain things that would harm them, since even though they may not exactly be capable of understanding why they cannot do it at the moment, they will still refrain from doing it out of fear of getting spanked again.

I had to spank my little sister a few weeks ago for the very first time. It was horrible. I hated it and hope that I never have to do it again. I can definitely see why some parents wouldn't want to spank their children, but then again, sometimes it is all that works.
Your little sister?

I practically raise her when my parents aren't around.
Unnecessary may be the better choice of word.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 02:51:07 AM by Kerdy » Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2012, 02:52:15 AM »

Some kids behave and never need a spanking.  Some only need one occasionally.  Some need them on a regular basis.  Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective.  Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment.  Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents.  A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening.  No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age?  Is it because the child is then capable of fighting back?  Do you only disapprove of "spanking" (which is really just a nice way of saying "assaulting") children, and not adults, because you're too cowardly to assault someone who is your physical equal or better?
Roll Eyes
Boring!  Moving on...

In other words, "I cannot really dispute the question, and so I will ignore it."

Um, sure...that's it.  You caught me...
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,623


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2012, 02:54:03 AM »

Quote
Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Not quite. A good number of men who have "women issues" have (had) an overbearing, domineering mother.
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,996


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2012, 04:28:06 AM »

Past a certain age physical punishment only makes things worse. At least that's how I feel when my dad threatens to beat me as a 17 year old.

Little kids, though, sure.
Sorry to hear that. My father was/is the scariest guy when he is angry. There was an incident that he grabbed me by the arm for not completing a homework assignment in AP Lit. That memory still haunts me.

He's considerably calmed down now, although I am still intimidated by him. I'm a pretty sensitive guy which is probably because of a lack of a true father figure that disciplined. Hed be on business trips alot so I was around my mother alot more.

However I am happy how I turned out. I have alot more heart than most men out there. I have surprised alot of women by not being a jackass, but that's thanks to actually loving my mother. Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Anyway I would want to raise my kids so there never comes an opportunity for a spanking.

Oh please, you're a bunch of babies. My father would scream at me from the top of his lungs when I was a little kid and bust stuff around the house, he still threatens to kick me out whenever he's angry at me. Suck it up, until you've had to search the car  as a teenager for your own father's dope because your mother was too sad to do it on her own, you have no reason to complain.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 04:31:56 AM by JamesR » Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,996


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2012, 04:30:30 AM »

Quote
Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Not quite. A good number of men who have "women issues" have (had) an overbearing, domineering mother.

Ain't that sort of the same thing? Since if you had an overbearing, domineering mother, you would probably develop a lack of love for her? Either way, I picked up the horrible habit from my mother of suppressing and suppressing my emotions until I could no longer contain them, reason being that when I was younger, I was afraid that if I expressed my negative emotions, that I would just cause her more stress, and I already knew that she was obviously under a lot of stress with dad and all.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2012, 12:42:43 PM »

Past a certain age physical punishment only makes things worse. At least that's how I feel when my dad threatens to beat me as a 17 year old.

Little kids, though, sure.
Sorry to hear that. My father was/is the scariest guy when he is angry. There was an incident that he grabbed me by the arm for not completing a homework assignment in AP Lit. That memory still haunts me.

He's considerably calmed down now, although I am still intimidated by him. I'm a pretty sensitive guy which is probably because of a lack of a true father figure that disciplined. Hed be on business trips alot so I was around my mother alot more.

However I am happy how I turned out. I have alot more heart than most men out there. I have surprised alot of women by not being a jackass, but that's thanks to actually loving my mother. Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Anyway I would want to raise my kids so there never comes an opportunity for a spanking.

Oh please, you're a bunch of babies. My father would scream at me from the top of his lungs when I was a little kid and bust stuff around the house, he still threatens to kick me out whenever he's angry at me. Suck it up, until you've had to search the car  as a teenager for your own father's dope because your mother was too sad to do it on her own, you have no reason to complain.


Hoe he reacted was his problem not yours.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2012, 12:47:49 PM »

And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Ephesians 6:4



The babe that weeps the rod beneath
Writes revenge in realms of death.

-William Blake
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 12:55:39 PM by rakovsky » Logged
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2012, 02:08:45 PM »

Past a certain age physical punishment only makes things worse. At least that's how I feel when my dad threatens to beat me as a 17 year old.

Little kids, though, sure.
Sorry to hear that. My father was/is the scariest guy when he is angry. There was an incident that he grabbed me by the arm for not completing a homework assignment in AP Lit. That memory still haunts me.

He's considerably calmed down now, although I am still intimidated by him. I'm a pretty sensitive guy which is probably because of a lack of a true father figure that disciplined. Hed be on business trips alot so I was around my mother alot more.

However I am happy how I turned out. I have alot more heart than most men out there. I have surprised alot of women by not being a jackass, but that's thanks to actually loving my mother. Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Anyway I would want to raise my kids so there never comes an opportunity for a spanking.

Oh please, you're a bunch of babies. My father would scream at me from the top of his lungs when I was a little kid and bust stuff around the house, he still threatens to kick me out whenever he's angry at me. Suck it up, until you've had to search the car  as a teenager for your own father's dope because your mother was too sad to do it on her own, you have no reason to complain.

That was asinine.

James, just because we haven't had it as bad as you doesn't mean it doesn't have emotional effects that require more than just a "suck it up."
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 02:09:12 PM by William » Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2012, 04:52:00 PM »

If I've amounted to anything, it's probably been in spite of rather than because of physical discipline as a child. The holy fathers who speak of raising children, as opposed to those who misinterpret the Scriptures in order to justify themselves, emphasize the good example and prayers of parents as being more necessary and effective than lectures and physical discipline. Corrective words and actions also need to be separated from anger lest they produce worse results. In short, before a spanking, parents need first to employ other means. That said, physical discipline may still be necessary in some cases.

Very well put. 
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #70 on: December 03, 2012, 04:57:19 PM »

How did they go off?

For a moment, I thought that Michael Jackson may have risen from the grave.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2012, 07:11:46 PM »

St Augustine on the injustice of punishing children for their idleness:
Quote
"For I did not, O Lord, lack memory or capacity, for, by thy will, I possessed enough for my age. However, my mind was absorbed only in play, and I was punished for this by those who were doing the same things themselves. But the idling of our elders is called business; the idling of boys, though quite like it, is punished by those same elders, and no one pities either the boys or the men. For will any common sense observer agree that I was rightly punished as a boy for playing ball--just because this hindered me from learning more quickly those lessons by means of which, as a man, I could play at more shameful games? And did he by whom I was beaten do anything different? When he was worsted in some small controversy with a fellow teacher, he was more tormented by anger and envy than I was when beaten by a playmate in the ball game."

Excerpt from Confessions, Chapter IX, Book One (A.D. 398)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 07:12:11 PM by rakovsky » Logged
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2012, 08:58:37 PM »

St Augustine on the injustice of punishing children for their idleness:
Quote
"For I did not, O Lord, lack memory or capacity, for, by thy will, I possessed enough for my age. However, my mind was absorbed only in play, and I was punished for this by those who were doing the same things themselves. But the idling of our elders is called business; the idling of boys, though quite like it, is punished by those same elders, and no one pities either the boys or the men. For will any common sense observer agree that I was rightly punished as a boy for playing ball--just because this hindered me from learning more quickly those lessons by means of which, as a man, I could play at more shameful games? And did he by whom I was beaten do anything different? When he was worsted in some small controversy with a fellow teacher, he was more tormented by anger and envy than I was when beaten by a playmate in the ball game."

Excerpt from Confessions, Chapter IX, Book One (A.D. 398)


This is one very specific instance.  Besides, when do kids have time to be idle when they have school, homework, soccer practice, torturing small animals in the basement, torturing less popular kids on facebook, playing xbox, and controled supervised playdates to be doing?
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #73 on: December 03, 2012, 09:13:35 PM »

In the same chapter, St Augustine compares the brutality of flogging and abusing adults as punishment with the brutality of corporal punishment of children, and the effect of pain and intense fear it has on them:
Quote
"Is there anyone, O Lord, with a spirit so great, who cleaves to thee with such steadfast affection (or is there even a kind of obtuseness that has the same effect)--is there any man who, by cleaving devoutly to thee, is endowed with so great a courage that he can regard indifferently those racks and hooks and other torture weapons from which men throughout the world pray so fervently to be spared; and can they scorn those who so greatly fear these torments, just as my parents were amused at the torments with which our teachers punished us boys? For we were no less afraid of our pains, nor did we beseech thee less to escape them."
Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #74 on: December 03, 2012, 09:31:43 PM »

In the same chapter, St Augustine compares the brutality of flogging and abusing adults as punishment with the brutality of corporal punishment of children, and the effect of pain and intense fear it has on them:
Quote
"Is there anyone, O Lord, with a spirit so great, who cleaves to thee with such steadfast affection (or is there even a kind of obtuseness that has the same effect)--is there any man who, by cleaving devoutly to thee, is endowed with so great a courage that he can regard indifferently those racks and hooks and other torture weapons from which men throughout the world pray so fervently to be spared; and can they scorn those who so greatly fear these torments, just as my parents were amused at the torments with which our teachers punished us boys? For we were no less afraid of our pains, nor did we beseech thee less to escape them."
It's perspective and how it's implemented.  Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary.  Should they be beaten?  No.  Beating isn't done for correction with love.  Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw.  Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why.  She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over.  She loved each one as a family member.  Since she started the paw rub,  none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.  

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street.  Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse.  Beating them up is.  I wish people would learn the difference.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 09:34:31 PM by Kerdy » Logged
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2012, 09:54:35 PM »

All correction of children has the potential to become abusive, whether physical or otherwise. You should not listen to any person who suggests that physical correction is ipso facto abusive (and, personally, I sincerely doubt that children should have the same rights to bodily autonomy and non-interference as do adults).

All of that does not mean that one should beat one's children.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2012, 01:00:41 AM »

What does the Domostroi say?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Frederic
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholicism > Eastern Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 88


St Frederick of Utrecht


« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2012, 01:17:52 AM »

Quote
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Proverbs 13:24

Do we have to interpret the verse literaly?
Logged

«One cannot understand the least thing about modern civilization if one does not first realize that it is a universal conspiracy to destroy the inner life.» (George Bernanos)
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2012, 01:31:06 AM »

Quote
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Proverbs 13:24

Do we have to interpret the verse literaly?


Is all discipline taught through beating with a stick? No. "The rod" means instruction, and sometimes instruction is difficult--parent and child go through what they would rather avoid for the greater good of the child attaining to self-discipline to do well. The alternative is that as a parent one is lax and one's children turn into the sons of Eli.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2012, 01:35:37 AM »

"spanking" (which is really just a nice way of saying "assaulting")

lol
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
ZealousZeal
Gainsaying Helpmeet
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: ✔
Posts: 2,764


look into my lovable alpaca eyes


« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2012, 01:44:54 AM »

All correction of children has the potential to become abusive, whether physical or otherwise.

This is an excellent point.

I was spanked as a kid (not often- I was a pretty good kid), but I think the way my mom handled spankings in our house was good. She never spanked us in front of others (which could be humiliating, I imagine). We always went to a separate room. She never spanked us when she was angry, even if that meant we had to sit on the couch for a few minutes to wait for it. We always talked first, to make sure we understood why we were getting spanked, and then it was quick and over with... then we would pray together. And we didn't get spanked for every offense. Anyway, all that to say- it was within certain parameters and always consistent. I don't look back on my childhood with baggage or negative feelings about the way discipline was done in our house.
Logged

"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14
ZealousZeal
Gainsaying Helpmeet
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: ✔
Posts: 2,764


look into my lovable alpaca eyes


« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2012, 01:49:55 AM »

Forgot to add- as for myself personally, I don't like to spank. It just isn't my parenting style. So far we've been pretty lucky in that other methods have been working so far, but man... 3 is an exhausting age.  Wink
Logged

"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2012, 03:08:24 AM »

So... Pertinent to the conversation, I went through an interesting situation over the last few days with my 3.5 yr. old.  She is smart for her age and has an older sister. I attribute her ability to grasp language and cognitive thought to this, but I could just have a super smart kid on my hands... I digress.
She hit her sister the other day (a rare occurrence) and got a spanking for it. She was very resistant and begged for not getting one, very dramatic. The next day she told her mom that she wanted to be in heaven with God instead of being here and getting yelled at and spanked. To be honest, her mother and I both grew up in abusive households, so we both have issues with constantly questioning our parenting and struggle through with prayer and attentiveness to be positive and control our reactions.

So her mother and I prayed about it and decided not to spank our kids anymore. We spoke to our daughter and asked her forgiveness, agreeing with her that we would all do everything we could to have a happy home. She agreed to try to express herself better and not hit her sister. I truly believe that God has shown us through our own daughter, that we need to work on doing things differently.

This is hard for us and I ask for all of your prayers as we move through this in faith that our Lord will teach us.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 03:09:22 AM by simplygermain » Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Frederic
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholicism > Eastern Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 88


St Frederick of Utrecht


« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2012, 03:14:03 AM »

Quote
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Proverbs 13:24

Do we have to interpret the verse literaly?


Is all discipline taught through beating with a stick? No. "The rod" means instruction, and sometimes instruction is difficult--parent and child go through what they would rather avoid for the greater good of the child attaining to self-discipline to do well. The alternative is that as a parent one is lax and one's children turn into the sons of Eli.

I agree. The rod is only an image.
Logged

«One cannot understand the least thing about modern civilization if one does not first realize that it is a universal conspiracy to destroy the inner life.» (George Bernanos)
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2012, 08:25:17 AM »

It's perspective and how it's implemented.  Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary.  Should they be beaten?  No.  Beating isn't done for correction with love.  Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw.  Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why.  She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over.  She loved each one as a family member.  Since she started the paw rub,  none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.  

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street.  Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse.  Beating them up is.  I wish people would learn the difference.
Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

This is messed up.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 08:28:05 AM by rakovsky » Logged
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2012, 10:11:39 AM »

It's perspective and how it's implemented.  Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary.  Should they be beaten?  No.  Beating isn't done for correction with love.  Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw.  Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why.  She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over.  She loved each one as a family member.  Since she started the paw rub,  none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.  

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street.  Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse.  Beating them up is.  I wish people would learn the difference.
Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

This is messed up.


How do you discipline your kids?
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2012, 10:14:08 AM »

So... Pertinent to the conversation, I went through an interesting situation over the last few days with my 3.5 yr. old.  She is smart for her age and has an older sister. I attribute her ability to grasp language and cognitive thought to this, but I could just have a super smart kid on my hands... I digress.
She hit her sister the other day (a rare occurrence) and got a spanking for it. She was very resistant and begged for not getting one, very dramatic. The next day she told her mom that she wanted to be in heaven with God instead of being here and getting yelled at and spanked. To be honest, her mother and I both grew up in abusive households, so we both have issues with constantly questioning our parenting and struggle through with prayer and attentiveness to be positive and control our reactions.

So her mother and I prayed about it and decided not to spank our kids anymore. We spoke to our daughter and asked her forgiveness, agreeing with her that we would all do everything we could to have a happy home. She agreed to try to express herself better and not hit her sister. I truly believe that God has shown us through our own daughter, that we need to work on doing things differently.

This is hard for us and I ask for all of your prayers as we move through this in faith that our Lord will teach us.



You do have a smart daughter.  I always thought up extravagant ways to get out of spankings, like asking my granma to get me a German Shepherd so I could sick it on my grandpa, or better yet, that it would snow so I could build a snowman to get him.  Unfortunately it was July so that plan fell through.
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2012, 01:53:32 PM »

Quote
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Proverbs 13:24

Do we have to interpret the verse literaly?


Not really.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2012, 01:57:37 PM »

It's perspective and how it's implemented.  Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary.  Should they be beaten?  No.  Beating isn't done for correction with love.  Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw.  Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why.  She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over.  She loved each one as a family member.  Since she started the paw rub,  none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.  

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street.  Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.


Spanking is not abuse.  Beating them up is.  I wish people would learn the difference.
Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

This is messed up.




Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2012, 02:23:55 PM »

It's perspective and how it's implemented.  Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary.  Should they be beaten?  No.  Beating isn't done for correction with love.  Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw.  Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why.  She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over.  She loved each one as a family member.  Since she started the paw rub,  none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.  

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street.  Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.


Spanking is not abuse.  Beating them up is.  I wish people would learn the difference.
Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

This is messed up.




Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.

Ever heard of a place called "The Congo".  It's kinda like Neverneverland in that kids kill and rape and never grow old!
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2012, 02:25:19 PM »

Ever heard of a place called "The Congo".  It's kinda like Neverneverland in that kids kill and rape and never grow old!

We have a forum member from there, named congoman, maybe he'll chime in  Cool
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2012, 02:26:57 PM »

It's perspective and how it's implemented.  Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary.  Should they be beaten?  No.  Beating isn't done for correction with love.  Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw.  Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why.  She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over.  She loved each one as a family member.  Since she started the paw rub,  none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.  

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street.  Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.


Spanking is not abuse.  Beating them up is.  I wish people would learn the difference.
Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

This is messed up.




Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.

Ever heard of a place called "The Congo".  It's kinda like Neverneverland in that kids kill and rape and never grow old!

LOL. Is this your work? That is good stuff.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2012, 03:29:27 PM »

It's perspective and how it's implemented.  Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary.  Should they be beaten?  No.  Beating isn't done for correction with love.  Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw.  Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why.  She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over.  She loved each one as a family member.  Since she started the paw rub,  none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.  

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street.  Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.


Spanking is not abuse.  Beating them up is.  I wish people would learn the difference.
Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

This is messed up.




Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.

Ever heard of a place called "The Congo".  It's kinda like Neverneverland in that kids kill and rape and never grow old!

Ah yes, the innocence of youth.  I bet this kid will take a "time out" real well.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #93 on: December 04, 2012, 03:59:48 PM »

"Now, now, we don't shoot people. It's not nice. Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done."

NO! Not the corner!

"I'll take your Stuffy away!"

But MOM!
Logged


I'm going to need this.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #94 on: December 04, 2012, 04:45:53 PM »

It's perspective and how it's implemented.  Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary.  Should they be beaten?  No.  Beating isn't done for correction with love.  Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw.  Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why.  She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over.  She loved each one as a family member.  Since she started the paw rub,  none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.  

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street.  Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.


Spanking is not abuse.  Beating them up is.  I wish people would learn the difference.
Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

This is messed up.




Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.

Ever heard of a place called "The Congo".  It's kinda like Neverneverland in that kids kill and rape and never grow old!

Ah yes, the innocence of youth.  I bet this kid will take a "time out" real well.

I wonder if that's one of General Butt Naked's "men"?  He has to be the most colourful generals of the 20-21st Century.
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,996


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #95 on: December 04, 2012, 10:26:08 PM »

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative. When children act up, they get a whipping to the behind and then an hour later they are happy again and playing. When an adult screws up, they lose their job, have to pay money in restorations, go to jail, get beaten up or even end up losing their lives. A spanking would actually be graceful. Would you rather children who commit adult offenses be punished with the same aforementioned consequences that adults have to face? No. A spanking is actually an act of grace compared to what we would face as adults.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #96 on: December 04, 2012, 10:58:54 PM »

It's perspective and how it's implemented.  Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary.  Should they be beaten?  No.  Beating isn't done for correction with love.  Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw.  Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why.  She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over.  She loved each one as a family member.  Since she started the paw rub,  none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.  

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street.  Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse.  Beating them up is.  I wish people would learn the difference.
Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

This is messed up.

It's it amazing and wonderful how we each get to express our opinions on the matter without an undertone of judgement...
Logged
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #97 on: December 05, 2012, 12:12:23 AM »

It's perspective and how it's implemented.  Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary.  Should they be beaten?  No.  Beating isn't done for correction with love.  Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw.  Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why.  She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over.  She loved each one as a family member.  Since she started the paw rub,  none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.  

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street.  Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.


Spanking is not abuse.  Beating them up is.  I wish people would learn the difference.
Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

This is messed up.




Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.

Ever heard of a place called "The Congo".  It's kinda like Neverneverland in that kids kill and rape and never grow old!

Ah yes, the innocence of youth.  I bet this kid will take a "time out" real well.

I wonder if that's one of General Butt Naked's "men"?  He has to be the most colourful generals of the 20-21st Century.

Where is Mad Mike Hoare when we need him . . .
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #98 on: December 05, 2012, 05:54:29 PM »

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative.
I disagree. Better to be a stable boy on a poor man's farm than a whipping boy in a prince's court. Better to be friends with geeks than to be hazed daily by the "cool kids". Better to be a servant to God than a slave to any man.

Quote
When children act up, they get a whipping to the behind and then an hour later they are happy again and playing.
It depends on the whipping. It is common for students beaten in US highschools to have pain for a week. Maybe it looks like they are doing recreation, but they are also in pain.

Quote
When an adult screws up, they lose their job, have to pay money in restorations, go to jail, get beaten up or even end up losing their lives.
You are comparing things that range from better (paying fines) to much worse (death) and then concludes that since adults may undergo a whole range of things- legal and illegal- it is OK for children to be caused intense pain.

Quote
A spanking would actually be graceful.


No it would not, James.

Quote
Police Chief Suspended Over Alleged Spankings

Woolf said Martin told her that her son Richard's participation in a juvenile diversion program that included paddling would make his speeding ticket "go away."

She said that during the first session in January, at the police station, her son was struck three times on the bare buttocks with a wooden paddle.

"When Ritchie came out, he was hysterical," Woolf said Tuesday. "Never have I seen that child cry like he cried."
http://www.nospank.net/n-m30r.htm

Love enters the soul, makes it cheerful and sensitive. Fear, pain, and shame hurt it in an ugly direction.
Logged
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #99 on: December 05, 2012, 08:09:36 PM »

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative.


I disagree. Better to be a stable boy on a poor man's farm than a whipping boy in a prince's court. Better to be friends with geeks than to be hazed daily by the "cool kids". Better to be a servant to God than a slave to any man.


absolutely to that comment.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #100 on: December 05, 2012, 09:44:20 PM »

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative.


I disagree. Better to be a stable boy on a poor man's farm than a whipping boy in a prince's court. Better to be friends with geeks than to be hazed daily by the "cool kids". Better to be a servant to God than a slave to any man.


absolutely to that comment.

Except for the fact that it's completely non sequitur.  How does being a disciplined child compare with being hazed in school or beaten by a slave master?

So I ask rakovsky again, how do you discipline your kids?
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #101 on: December 05, 2012, 10:07:48 PM »

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative.


I disagree. Better to be a stable boy on a poor man's farm than a whipping boy in a prince's court. Better to be friends with geeks than to be hazed daily by the "cool kids". Better to be a servant to God than a slave to any man.


absolutely to that comment.

Except for the fact that it's completely non sequitur.  How does being a disciplined child compare with being hazed in school or beaten by a slave master?

So I ask rakovsky again, how do you discipline your kids?
Those things don't compare, but it sure gets the emotions going when someone says something like that.
Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,508


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2012, 12:39:10 AM »

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative. When children act up, they get a whipping to the behind and then an hour later they are happy again and playing. When an adult screws up, they lose their job, have to pay money in restorations, go to jail, get beaten up or even end up losing their lives. A spanking would actually be graceful. Would you rather children who commit adult offenses be punished with the same aforementioned consequences that adults have to face? No. A spanking is actually an act of grace compared to what we would face as adults.

Me too!

I was whooped when I was a child.  I still respect and speak with my parents at least every other day!
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2012, 02:59:02 AM »

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative. When children act up, they get a whipping to the behind and then an hour later they are happy again and playing. When an adult screws up, they lose their job, have to pay money in restorations, go to jail, get beaten up or even end up losing their lives. A spanking would actually be graceful. Would you rather children who commit adult offenses be punished with the same aforementioned consequences that adults have to face? No. A spanking is actually an act of grace compared to what we would face as adults.

Me too!

I was whooped when I was a child.  I still respect and speak with my parents at least every other day!

Wait, so you two also were disciplined by your parents when you acted like little urchins?  And you still can talk to your parents too?  I'm not the only one?  Perhaps we should start a support group for other members of the forum who also were spanked by their parents and turned out for the better.  This sort of thing really must no longer be tolerated!
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2012, 03:14:56 AM »

Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?

Compared to the punishments that adults and young adults alike have to face, I think that an old fashioned spanking until I was crying would actually be better compared to the alternative. When children act up, they get a whipping to the behind and then an hour later they are happy again and playing. When an adult screws up, they lose their job, have to pay money in restorations, go to jail, get beaten up or even end up losing their lives. A spanking would actually be graceful. Would you rather children who commit adult offenses be punished with the same aforementioned consequences that adults have to face? No. A spanking is actually an act of grace compared to what we would face as adults.

Me too!

I was whooped when I was a child.  I still respect and speak with my parents at least every other day!

Wait, so you two also were disciplined by your parents when you acted like little urchins?  And you still can talk to your parents too?  I'm not the only one?  Perhaps we should start a support group for other members of the forum who also were spanked by their parents and turned out for the better.  This sort of thing really must no longer be tolerated!
"My parents loved me and taught me right from wrong.  How could they!"
 Wink
Logged
Irish Melkite
Information Mongeror
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite Greek-Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Posts: 988


WWW
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2012, 05:36:54 AM »

No. I did it once each with my two eldest - many, many years ago - and immediately after the second time concluded that it served no useful purpose. Time outs with the occasional grounding or confiscation of a treasured item worked much better - better yet was expressing disappointment and talking about why we were disappointed.

End result? 7 well-adjusted, well-spoken, well-educated, socially conscious, polite children, ranging from 9 to 36 years, who love God, their parents, one another, themselves, and people in general and who make me proud most every day of their lives. Thank You, God.

Many years,

Neil
Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2012, 10:35:38 AM »

No. I did it once each with my two eldest - many, many years ago - and immediately after the second time concluded that it served no useful purpose. Time outs with the occasional grounding or confiscation of a treasured item worked much better - better yet was expressing disappointment and talking about why we were disappointed.

End result? 7 well-adjusted, well-spoken, well-educated, socially conscious, polite children, ranging from 9 to 36 years, who love God, their parents, one another, themselves, and people in general and who make me proud most every day of their lives. Thank You, God.

Many years,

Neil
Thank you for sharing, Neil. That was kind of you to turn to raising your kids that way.
 
Thank you!

« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 10:35:56 AM by rakovsky » Logged
Mokek Kwe
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 66



« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2012, 12:10:53 PM »

No. I did it once each with my two eldest - many, many years ago - and immediately after the second time concluded that it served no useful purpose. Time outs with the occasional grounding or confiscation of a treasured item worked much better - better yet was expressing disappointment and talking about why we were disappointed.

End result? 7 well-adjusted, well-spoken, well-educated, socially conscious, polite children, ranging from 9 to 36 years, who love God, their parents, one another, themselves, and people in general and who make me proud most every day of their lives. Thank You, God.

Many years,

Neil
Thank you for sharing, Neil. That was kind of you to turn to raising your kids that way.
 
Thank you!



Agreed.
Logged

Baptized with my husband and our four year old daughter on May 4, 2013
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2012, 12:38:01 PM »

No. I did it once each with my two eldest - many, many years ago - and immediately after the second time concluded that it served no useful purpose. Time outs with the occasional grounding or confiscation of a treasured item worked much better - better yet was expressing disappointment and talking about why we were disappointed.

End result? 7 well-adjusted, well-spoken, well-educated, socially conscious, polite children, ranging from 9 to 36 years, who love God, their parents, one another, themselves, and people in general and who make me proud most every day of their lives. Thank You, God.

Many years,

Neil

Irish, of course it is ineffective with some children.  I sure as heck aren't going to tell someone their methods don't work when they have evidence seven times over.  But also thank God that you didn't have me or my brothers!  We loved and respected our parents, still do, in fact.  But there were times when their disappointment wasn't sufficient so the cooking spoon had to get disappointed as well.  As much as we loved our parents, we tended to respect the spoon of judgement even more.
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2012, 03:50:12 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2012, 03:51:54 PM »

Oh I'm in favor of spanking, just not the kids.   Tongue  But seriously, yes I had kids, and yes I was against it.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 03:53:05 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Large Marge sent me...
Mokek Kwe
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 66



« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2012, 03:57:04 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.
*raises hand* Here! Opposed to spanking and have kid.
Logged

Baptized with my husband and our four year old daughter on May 4, 2013
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2012, 03:57:26 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.
My parents were opposed to it, well actually they never had to spank me.

And look at how I turned out! Completely undisciplined and unmotivated!
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2012, 04:24:25 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.
My parents were opposed to it, well actually they never had to spank me.

And look at how I turned out! Completely undisciplined and unmotivated!

You sir, are going to get flamed.  I hope you have protective clothing?
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2012, 04:29:41 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
Mokek Kwe
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 66



« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2012, 04:39:40 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.
As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children.  I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.
Logged

Baptized with my husband and our four year old daughter on May 4, 2013
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2012, 04:45:41 PM »

Please see my current avatar for the proper way to discipline a child. It hurt me, sure, but you can bet your last dollar that I never spilled milk at the dinner table again!
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
Mokek Kwe
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 66



« Reply #117 on: December 06, 2012, 04:57:51 PM »

Please see my current avatar for the proper way to discipline a child. It hurt me, sure, but you can bet your last dollar that I never spilled milk at the dinner table again!
lol.
Logged

Baptized with my husband and our four year old daughter on May 4, 2013
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2012, 05:59:32 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.
As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children.  I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

Christlike is giving the little hellion the lash when he plays with money in Church.   Tongue
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #119 on: December 06, 2012, 06:31:30 PM »

I have kids, and as to this post, all I can say is Amen.


How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2012, 06:38:09 PM »

I have kids, and as to this post, all I can say is Amen.


How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

Amen, amen.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2012, 06:57:02 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.
My parents were opposed to it, well actually they never had to spank me.

And look at how I turned out! Completely undisciplined and unmotivated!

o come on. Have a little faith in yourself.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #122 on: December 06, 2012, 07:04:57 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.
As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children.  I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

Now you are going to be bombarded with how christ used the whip to clear the house of prayers from the idiots who turned it into a den of thieves. As if he was referring to how to discipline children. Seriously some people really need psychotherapy, if they think that this incident is an example of how to discipline children.
Sadly though some people view it that way.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2012, 07:16:42 PM »

Spanx is a far superior punishment.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Mokek Kwe
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 66



« Reply #124 on: December 06, 2012, 07:30:23 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.
As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children.  I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

Now you are going to be bombarded with how christ used the whip to clear the house of prayers from the idiots who turned it into a den of thieves. As if he was referring to how to discipline children. Seriously some people really need psychotherapy, if they think that this incident is an example of how to discipline children.
Sadly though some people view it that way.

Right. The root word of discipline is disciple, and I hardly think the Lord was much besides graceful and gentle with the ignorant and still-learning.
We are all still learning.
Lest anyone think that I have a perfectly docile child, she acted like a butthead at least twice today, and though it was difficult, I controlled the annoyance I felt from her actions and helped her figure out what she could do instead of acting like a butthead. And she knew I was getting frustrated, but I didn't hit or spank her. Now she's curled up next to me.
When I made an effort to use my words with her instead of my hand, her vocabulary and apparent EQ increased significantly.
Logged

Baptized with my husband and our four year old daughter on May 4, 2013
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14,698



WWW
« Reply #125 on: December 06, 2012, 07:31:23 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.
As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children.  I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

Christlike is giving the little hellion the lash when he plays with money in Church.   Tongue

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #126 on: December 06, 2012, 07:55:47 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.
As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children.  I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

Christlike is giving the little hellion the lash when he plays with money in Church.   Tongue

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

Beatings vs spankings... discuss.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #127 on: December 06, 2012, 08:55:08 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.
As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children.  I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

Christlike is giving the little hellion the lash when he plays with money in Church.   Tongue

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

Beatings vs spankings... discuss.

Some minds are not made to comprehend such nuance.
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #128 on: December 06, 2012, 09:01:16 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.
As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children.  I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

Now you are going to be bombarded with how christ used the whip to clear the house of prayers from the idiots who turned it into a den of thieves. As if he was referring to how to discipline children. Seriously some people really need psychotherapy, if they think that this incident is an example of how to discipline children.
Sadly though some people view it that way.

Right. The root word of discipline is disciple, and I hardly think the Lord was much besides graceful and gentle with the ignorant and still-learning.
We are all still learning.
Lest anyone think that I have a perfectly docile child, she acted like a butthead at least twice today, and though it was difficult, I controlled the annoyance I felt from her actions and helped her figure out what she could do instead of acting like a butthead. And she knew I was getting frustrated, but I didn't hit or spank her. Now she's curled up next to me.
When I made an effort to use my words with her instead of my hand, her vocabulary and apparent EQ increased significantly.

I would have thought it was the other way around.
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2012, 10:43:14 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.
As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children.  I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

Christlike is giving the little hellion the lash when he plays with money in Church.   Tongue

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"
I'm confused where this statement has any rational connection with spanking or not spanking children.  Unless we are just making random comments...like, "I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad never spanked them and said, "I wished they had."
Logged
Irish Melkite
Information Mongeror
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite Greek-Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Posts: 988


WWW
« Reply #130 on: December 07, 2012, 06:48:41 AM »

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I certainly feel no moral superiority over much of anyone. God has blessed me with children who exhibit all of the good qualities that I cited above - but He certainly didn't include in that blessing anything approaching docility on their part. Personality-wise, they span a spectrum but not a one of them is without a healthy dose of outspokenness that manifests itself both as self-esteem and as a willingness to stand up and be counted in defense of anyone they perceive as an underdog. Their Irish and Scots heritage is manifested in more than their red and blond locks; their tempers and dogged stubbornness mirror those traits in their Dad and don't always serve their own best interests. But, they're fiercely bound to the notion that, at the end of the day, one must never walk away with anger in one's heart or leave anyone with angry words being the last thing they heard.

As far as the harm that spanking inflicts on anyone, I am firmly of the opinion that some, who would never allow themselves to physically strike a child, do incredibly more harm to their children with words - words that they consider to be emblematic of loving discipline but which actually cut to the quick and devastate the one on whom they're inflicted. I know people whom I wish would physically discipline their children because I'm certain that it would be administered much more gently than the verbal thrashings which are standard fare for all manner of transgressions.

But, in either instance, the ultimate problem lies in timing. As some have mentioned, one should never punish a child in the heat of anger, as therein lies the danger of being truly abusive. But, just as is the case with animals, punishment that lacks immediacy is inherently ineffective. When time - a cooling off period, if you will - intervenes between the events that merit punishment and its administration, there is a mental disconnect between the two in the child's mind, the point is lost, and it comes to be perceived as just outright meanness on the punisher's part.

That, to me, is the strongest argument for alternative, creative, disciplinary methods to be employed - in the immediate aftermath of the circumstances that merited them. "You did this and there is a consequence, which you must face - now."

Many years,

Neil   
Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #131 on: January 14, 2013, 08:31:37 PM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.
As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children.  I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

True. But then again. I never saw Jesus Spanking little children. However, I have seen many using the fact that he tried to whip those idiots who turned his father's house into a den of thieves. As an excuse to justify hitting their children.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2013, 12:52:47 AM »

How many opposed to spanking have kids? If you don't have kids, your opinion is mostly moot.

Technically, the same could be said for the pro-spankers.  The difference I am seeing with the pro-spankers is that they aren't arguing that you should spank your kids, but rather accept the opinions of those who do have kids and have found the need to spank them.

Those that do have kids and have not found the need to spank them AND who can with a clear conscience say that they didn't turn out to be hellions should be thanking God (like Irish Melkite did above).  When God gives you docile and obedient children who do not need to be disciplined more fiercely than with a strong word it is a gracious gift and not something that makes you in any way morally superior to those who have not been blessed with this boon.

I don't feel that I'm morally superior, but I do not think that spanking or hitting improves behavior for the right reasons.
As I come from a Protestant-Evangelical background that not only embraced spanking, but often mandated it by saying it was a Biblical issue, I think it is important for us as Orthodox to explore non-violent (aka Christlike), effective means of discipline with our children.  I think that not only will children benefit from this, but I think this can allow for a lot of growth in us, as parents.

non-violent does not equal Christlike.

True. But then again. I never saw Jesus Spanking little children. However, I have seen many using the fact that he tried to whip those idiots who turned his father's house into a den of thieves. As an excuse to justify hitting their children.
Jesus never had any biological children to spank.  Spiritually, we are all His children and are sometimes punished much more severely than a paddling.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #133 on: January 15, 2013, 12:56:12 AM »

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

I'm pretty sure those who never get punished by mom and dad and get everything they want grow up to become upstanding citizens.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,123


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #134 on: January 15, 2013, 01:07:22 AM »

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

I'm pretty sure those who never get punished by mom and dad and get everything they want grow up to become upstanding citizens.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

You really shouldn't conflate not beating children with "never get(ting) punished" and "get(ting) everything they want".
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #135 on: January 15, 2013, 01:14:07 AM »

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

I'm pretty sure those who never get punished by mom and dad and get everything they want grow up to become upstanding citizens.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

You really shouldn't conflate not beating children with "never get(ting) punished" and "get(ting) everything they want".

It works both ways.  Of course if you beat your child they will suffer emotional problems from it.  But spanking is not beating your child.  But for people who don't know the difference, then it is a good idea not to spank their children.  But they shouldn't tell us who knows the difference that we're wrong for doing so.
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,996


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #136 on: January 15, 2013, 01:32:58 AM »

From my experience, parents who don't physically discipline their kids usually have the most misbehaved kids. And on the other side of the spectrum, parents who abuse their children (mostly out of religion) also have some of the worst teenagers. The teens getting pregnant or doing drugs are always the ones who were sheltered from ultra religious, strict families that abused them for even the smallest offense.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #137 on: January 15, 2013, 07:52:27 AM »

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

I'm pretty sure those who never get punished by mom and dad and get everything they want grow up to become upstanding citizens.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

You really shouldn't conflate not beating children with "never get(ting) punished" and "get(ting) everything they want".

You really shouldn't conflate spanking your children with "beating" them. 
Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #138 on: January 15, 2013, 07:53:14 AM »

I'm sure there are plenty of rapists and murderers who can look back to the times when Mom and Dad used to row the daylights out of them, and say, "That really helped!"

I'm pretty sure those who never get punished by mom and dad and get everything they want grow up to become upstanding citizens.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

You really shouldn't conflate not beating children with "never get(ting) punished" and "get(ting) everything they want".

It works both ways.  Of course if you beat your child they will suffer emotional problems from it.  But spanking is not beating your child.  But for people who don't know the difference, then it is a good idea not to spank their children.  But they shouldn't tell us who knows the difference that we're wrong for doing so.

This is sound advice!
Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #139 on: January 15, 2013, 07:56:56 AM »

From my experience, parents who don't physically discipline their kids usually have the most misbehaved kids. And on the other side of the spectrum, parents who abuse their children (mostly out of religion) also have some of the worst teenagers. The teens getting pregnant or doing drugs are always the ones who were sheltered from ultra religious, strict families that abused them for even the smallest offense.
Response to bolded portion:

I have dealt with a fair amount of child abuse situations in my time and I have to tell you, my experience shows this to be absolutely false.  The worst beatings I have seen do not come from people with even a moderate religious foundation.  On a good day it’s a minimal foundation.  Does it happen?  Of course it does.  Does it happen on a scale large enough to even entertain this statement?  Not from what I have seen.

If I misunderstood your intent in this statement, I apologize.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 07:58:43 AM by Kerdy » Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,508


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #140 on: January 15, 2013, 05:55:25 PM »

Being a parent that spanks, I view this as a non-issue and not up for debate.

There's an old saying - "Those who have no children know best how to raise them."

I have 5 children.  I was raised in a family with 5 children.  There are people at my wife's church with 9, 13, 10, 7, and 4 children.  They all spank, and their children are wonderfully behaved.

Amish and Mennonite children are most often spanked, and are incredibly well behaved too.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #141 on: January 15, 2013, 05:57:29 PM »

There's an old saying - "Those who have no children know best how to raise them."

My experience as a parent was that the worst advice always came--and came often--from family members who were already parents. I learned more about raising a baby from those "what to expect when you're expecting" type books than I did from my parents, and it wasn't for lack of talking with my parents.  Wink
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 05:58:18 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Large Marge sent me...
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #142 on: January 15, 2013, 05:58:50 PM »

Spanking isn't just about getting them to behave, but also getting them to realize that doing the wrong thing has consequences.  And I'd rather them learn those consequences by my hand rather than from someone else's who wouldn't treat them with love.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #143 on: January 15, 2013, 06:02:46 PM »

Spanking isn't just about getting them to behave, but also getting them to realize that doing the wrong thing has consequences.  And I'd rather them learn those consequences by my hand rather than from someone else's who wouldn't treat them with love.

Sad That's why I didn't spank them... (at least in theory)
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #144 on: January 15, 2013, 06:16:54 PM »

Spanking isn't just about getting them to behave, but also getting them to realize that doing the wrong thing has consequences.  And I'd rather them learn those consequences by my hand rather than from someone else's who wouldn't treat them with love.

Sad That's why I didn't spank them... (at least in theory)

Because they are behaved?  Or because you didn't want them to know about the consequences?
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #145 on: January 15, 2013, 06:19:16 PM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.
Logged

Large Marge sent me...
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #146 on: January 15, 2013, 06:29:26 PM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #147 on: January 17, 2013, 12:24:24 AM »

Good for you, Астериктос!

Stay strong.
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #148 on: January 17, 2013, 01:32:26 AM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

It must be different in Canada. Here, our prisons aren't luxury hotels--though the ignorant often claim they are.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 01:33:01 AM by Shanghaiski » Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #149 on: January 17, 2013, 10:30:29 AM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

It must be different in Canada. Here, our prisons aren't luxury hotels--though the ignorant often claim they are.

I'm dating a jail guard right now.  They don't sound like luxury hotels but I'd almost rather be in jail than work in one.
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #150 on: January 17, 2013, 11:56:33 AM »

There's an old saying - "Those who have no children know best how to raise them."

My experience as a parent was that the worst advice always came--and came often--from family members who were already parents. I learned more about raising a baby from those "what to expect when you're expecting" type books than I did from my parents, and it wasn't for lack of talking with my parents.  Wink

i agree. But why do you think that happens?
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #151 on: January 17, 2013, 11:59:05 AM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,667


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #152 on: January 17, 2013, 12:06:04 PM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?
So therefore, punish nothing?

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #153 on: January 17, 2013, 01:56:47 PM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?
So therefore, punish nothing?

PP


Your complaints to Jesus who commanded this. I am not his Judge. I am his creation.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #154 on: January 17, 2013, 03:15:58 PM »

I'm dating a jail guard right now.  They don't sound like luxury hotels but I'd almost rather be in jail than work in one.
Wow. The work is really that bad?
Logged
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #155 on: January 17, 2013, 03:17:14 PM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?
So therefore, punish nothing?

PP


Your complaints to Jesus who commanded this. I am not his Judge. I am his creation.

Blame it on Jesus.  Works good if you're the Sanhedrin. 
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #156 on: January 18, 2013, 05:40:38 AM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?
Are you casting the first stone?
Logged
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #157 on: January 18, 2013, 11:23:02 AM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?
So therefore, punish nothing?

PP


Your complaints to Jesus who commanded this. I am not his Judge. I am his creation.

Blame it on Jesus.  Works good if you're the Sanhedrin. 




I am not blaming anything on jesus. I simply said if that guy has issues with this command of jesus, he better complain to jesus directly. Noit me.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #158 on: January 18, 2013, 11:23:48 AM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?
Are you casting the first stone?




I wouldn't even cast the last.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,996


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #159 on: January 18, 2013, 07:24:59 PM »

It's no surprise that the worst children I ever see come from postmodern liberal parents who read parenting books and try out all sorts of new crap that doesn't work. Old-fashioned parents may be unsophisticated, outdated and harsh, but it seems to work better--at least until the teenage years. Then their children want to misbehave, get pregnant and do drugs to tick off their parents in reaction to the harshness they faced from them as smaller children.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #160 on: January 18, 2013, 07:38:52 PM »

at least until the teenage years. Then their children want to misbehave, get pregnant and do drugs to tick off their parents in reaction to the harshness they faced from them as smaller children.

This is something every rational person wants to avoid. Unfortunately though, most people have psychiatric issues, that they don't even admit to themselves, and use violence, and they wonder why our society is in such a mess.

For what it's worth. I have never read any parenting book. I am speaking from experience. But I have also heard the Christ saying something like this.

"Do unto others as you would have them do to you".


Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #161 on: January 18, 2013, 09:53:16 PM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?
Are you casting the first stone?




I wouldn't even cast the last.
I suppose it’s all in one’s perspective.
Logged
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #162 on: January 18, 2013, 10:20:29 PM »

Also I think people who promote physical attacks on children, are usually (not always) just 98% of the time. Are the same people that will sue you and put some sauce on it, to get you as deeper into jail as possible, if you make the mistake to give them as much as a light smack in the face, for throwing tantrums. Now I haven't personally done that to anyone. But It has been my observation.



why do you disagree?

Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #163 on: January 18, 2013, 10:21:24 PM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?
Are you casting the first stone?




I wouldn't even cast the last.
I suppose it’s all in one’s perspective.



what do you mean?
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #164 on: January 19, 2013, 01:12:30 AM »

Also I think people who promote physical attacks on children, are usually (not always) just 98% of the time. Are the same people that will sue you and put some sauce on it, to get you as deeper into jail as possible, if you make the mistake to give them as much as a light smack in the face, for throwing tantrums. Now I haven't personally done that to anyone. But It has been my observation.
Makes sense. They are quick to dish out whippings to kids one third their own size, and if someone else has a conflict with them, they will react in the same way three times as strong, maybe punch you out or something, and think it's cool. After all, whipping little kids is a way for them to release their sociopathic rage bottled up, and they've had many years of being treated this way themselves.

Too bad they can't just go to the gym and take antibiotics to treat the worms/demons in their brains. Then see a Finnish priest who will tell them the beatings done to them were wrong. Then relax with some Comedy Central.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 01:15:05 AM by rakovsky » Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #165 on: January 19, 2013, 01:18:23 AM »

Also I think people who promote physical attacks on children, are usually (not always) just 98% of the time. Are the same people that will sue you and put some sauce on it, to get you as deeper into jail as possible, if you make the mistake to give them as much as a light smack in the face, for throwing tantrums. Now I haven't personally done that to anyone. But It has been my observation.
Makes sense. They are quick to dish out whippings to kids one third their own size, and if someone else has a conflict with them, they will react in the same way three times as strong, maybe punch you out or something, and think it's cool. After all, whipping little kids is a way for them to release their sociopathic rage bottled up, and they've had many years of being treated this way themselves.

Too bad they can't just go to the gym and take antibiotics to treat the worms/demons in their brains. Then see a Finnish priest who will tell them the beatings done to them were wrong. Then relax with some Comedy Central.
I have read some convoluted and torturous codswallop in my day, but this rates in the top ten.  Where do you conjure up such preposterous and ridiculous ideas?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 01:20:36 AM by Kerdy » Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #166 on: January 19, 2013, 01:22:08 AM »

It's no surprise that the worst children I ever see come from postmodern liberal parents who read parenting books and try out all sorts of new crap that doesn't work. Old-fashioned parents may be unsophisticated, outdated and harsh, but it seems to work better--at least until the teenage years. Then their children want to misbehave, get pregnant and do drugs to tick off their parents in reaction to the harshness they faced from them as smaller children.
The second part makes sense. But I don't think that the soft parents have the worst children. The worst ones are those whose children do not care. My outgoing grandfather told me about how in the 1930's he was a in Sunday School and the older children told him they were going to put him in the boiler. And he really believed it and was very scared. We are talking about the 1930's, when it was common for parents to be violent and over-punish their kids.

The worst kids are those whose parents are bad and violent or do not care about them. The Apple Does not Fall Far From the Tree.

(Remember the statistics I posted about San Quention inmates' upbringings)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 01:23:01 AM by rakovsky » Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #167 on: January 19, 2013, 01:25:38 AM »

Quote
Makes sense. They are quick to dish out whippings to kids one third their own size, and if someone else has a conflict with them, they will react in the same way three times as strong, maybe punch you out or something, and think it's cool. After all, whipping little kids is a way for them to release their sociopathic rage bottled up, and they've had many years of being treated this way themselves.

Too bad they can't just go to the gym and take antibiotics to treat the worms/demons in their brains. Then see a Finnish priest who will tell them the beatings done to them were wrong. Then relax with some Comedy Central.
I have read some convoluted and torturous codswallop in my day, but this rates in the top ten.  Where do you conjure up such preposterous and ridiculous ideas?
You mean the idea that abusive parents have demons or treatable mental illness?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 01:26:47 AM by rakovsky » Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #168 on: January 19, 2013, 01:27:08 AM »

The worst kids are those whose parents are bad and violent or do not care about them. The Apple Does not Fall Far From the Tree.

Even though this statement is not entirely accurate, I will not debate it and instead focus on the fact it has nothing to do with proper implementation of spanking.  However, there are many parents who actually don't care of their children.  If they did, they wouldn’t allow them to run amuck.
Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #169 on: January 19, 2013, 01:34:59 AM »

Quote
Makes sense. They are quick to dish out whippings to kids one third their own size, and if someone else has a conflict with them, they will react in the same way three times as strong, maybe punch you out or something, and think it's cool. After all, whipping little kids is a way for them to release their sociopathic rage bottled up, and they've had many years of being treated this way themselves.

Too bad they can't just go to the gym and take antibiotics to treat the worms/demons in their brains. Then see a Finnish priest who will tell them the beatings done to them were wrong. Then relax with some Comedy Central.
I have read some convoluted and torturous codswallop in my day, but this rates in the top ten.  Where do you conjure up such preposterous and ridiculous ideas?
You mean the idea that abusive parents have demons or treatable mental illness?
I mean all of it.  You are terribly detached from the truth.  You aren’t even in the ball park.  The percentage of people who spank their kids, to which your assertion applies, is so infinitesimal, it’s embarrassing.

You attempt to proclaim people who spank their children properly, are in the same category as those who abuse and beat their children.  Then you continue to state those same parents suffer from mental illness.  Your statement is, and I apologize for my shortness, asinine.

There is a big difference between disagreeing with/not utilizing spanking and attempting to demonize those who do with wild and irrational accusations.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 01:40:37 AM by Kerdy » Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #170 on: January 19, 2013, 02:12:13 AM »

.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 02:41:07 AM by rakovsky » Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #171 on: January 19, 2013, 02:37:07 AM »

Quote
Makes sense. They are quick to dish out whippings to kids one third their own size, and if someone else has a conflict with them, they will react in the same way three times as strong, maybe punch you out or something, and think it's cool. After all, whipping little kids is a way for them to release their sociopathic rage bottled up, and they've had many years of being treated this way themselves.

Too bad they can't just go to the gym and take antibiotics to treat the worms/demons in their brains. Then see a Finnish priest who will tell them the beatings done to them were wrong. Then relax with some Comedy Central.
I have read some convoluted and torturous codswallop in my day, but this rates in the top ten.  Where do you conjure up such preposterous and ridiculous ideas?
You mean the idea that abusive parents have demons or treatable mental illness?
I mean all of it.  You are terribly detached from the truth.  You aren’t even in the ball park.  The percentage of people who spank their kids, to which your assertion applies, is so infinitesimal, it’s embarrassing.

You attempt to proclaim people who spank their children properly, are in the same category as those who abuse and beat their children.  Then you continue to state those same parents suffer from mental illness.  Your statement is, and I apologize for my shortness, asinine.

There is a big difference between disagreeing with/not utilizing spanking and attempting to demonize those who do with wild and irrational accusations.
Tweety was talking about people who "physically attack" children as punishment. When I think of a "physical attack" punishment on a child, I think of a very painful act that comes on quickly.

Yes, if a person's way is to be quickly angry and is quick to judge and punish little children in a hard, painful way, it is from demons, mental illness, or some other mental or spiritual problem the person has.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 02:41:29 AM by rakovsky » Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #172 on: January 19, 2013, 02:57:30 AM »

Because I don't want them to connect consequences with physical consequences like being hit with a hand or belt or paddle. For us, most of the time, consequences would be losing allowance or no desert or time out or something. I make no moral judgment of those who spank, just my preference.

Little kids do not get that yet.  I do remember not being spanked when I reach a certain age and loss of privileges were my punishment.  But physical consequences do happen in life, its is a good reminder of this fact of life.

I actually am in favor of Singapore's way of handing out punishment to some offenders, that is caning.  That would really teach criminals instead of the luxury hotel we give them called prison.

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. Since he said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". Are you without sin whatsoever.?

Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15

Moreso, disciplining a child is different from judging a person.  Every parent has a great responsibility over their children that they be brought up correctly.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 03:00:32 AM by choy » Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #173 on: January 19, 2013, 03:01:50 AM »

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. He said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".
Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15
Jesus' statement "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" was a reference to an Old Testament commandment to stone people as punishment.

Likewise, when you find an Old Testament statement to cane children, it is a good question how Jesus would have dealt with this statement in a more compassionate way.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 03:05:30 AM by rakovsky » Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #174 on: January 19, 2013, 03:03:00 AM »

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. He said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".
Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15
Jesus' statement "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" was a reference to an Old Testament commandment to stone people as punishment.

Likewise, when you find an Old Testament statement to cane children, it is a good question how Jesus would have dealt with this statement in a more compassionate way.

How is stoning one to death even remotely a comparison to spanking your children?
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #175 on: January 19, 2013, 03:06:50 AM »

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. He said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".
Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15
Jesus' statement "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" was a reference to an Old Testament commandment to stone people as punishment.

Likewise, when you find an Old Testament statement to cane children, it is a good question how Jesus would have dealt with this statement in a more compassionate way.

How is stoning one to death even remotely a comparison to spanking your children?
Not just "spanking", but caning with a rod.

They are both Old Testament punishments, and we beseech our Father in Heaven to be merciful to us just his children as we are merciful to others. The relation that we have with our Father in Heaven where we ask Him to forgive us and stay His wrath reflects the ideal one with our children.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 03:08:14 AM by rakovsky » Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #176 on: January 19, 2013, 03:07:17 AM »

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. He said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".
Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15
Jesus' statement "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" was a reference to an Old Testament commandment to stone people as punishment.

Likewise, when you find an Old Testament statement to cane children, it is a good question how Jesus would have dealt with this statement in a more compassionate way.

How is stoning one to death even remotely a comparison to spanking your children?
Not just "spanking", but caning with a rod.

They are both Old Testament punishments, and we beseech our Father in Heaven to be merciful to us just his children as we are merciful to others - foremost our own.

Hebrews 12:6-8
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #177 on: January 19, 2013, 03:09:31 AM »

I wonder whether Jesus would agree with you. He said "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".
Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 29:15
Jesus' statement "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" was a reference to an Old Testament commandment to stone people as punishment.

Likewise, when you find an Old Testament statement to cane children, it is a good question how Jesus would have dealt with this statement in a more compassionate way.

How is stoning one to death even remotely a comparison to spanking your children?
Not just "spanking", but caning with a rod.

They are both Old Testament punishments, and we beseech our Father in Heaven to be merciful to us just his children as we are merciful to others - foremost our own.

Hebrews 12:6-8
Luke 6:36
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 03:26:04 AM by rakovsky » Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #178 on: January 19, 2013, 03:25:35 AM »

Isaiah 53:5

Wow!  Okay, I fold!  Kids, do what you want now!  Don't clean up your toys, shout at mommy all you like!  Throw your milk on the floor, watch TV all you like!
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #179 on: January 19, 2013, 03:27:00 AM »

Isaiah 53:5

Wow!  Okay, I fold!  Kids, do what you want now!  Don't clean up your toys, shout at mommy all you like!  Throw your milk on the floor, watch TV all you like!
Just because He forgives us for breaking the rules as we beg Him to does not mean the rules don't exist.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 03:30:00 AM by rakovsky » Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #180 on: January 19, 2013, 03:29:04 AM »

Isaiah 53:5

Wow!  Okay, I fold!  Kids, do what you want now!  Don't clean up your toys, shout at mommy all you like!  Throw your milk on the floor, watch TV all you like!
"Chastise" can mean reprimand without caning.

You're obsessed with caning.  You do know that we are talking about spanking here, right?
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #181 on: January 19, 2013, 03:33:47 AM »

Isaiah 53:5

Wow!  Okay, I fold!  Kids, do what you want now!  Don't clean up your toys, shout at mommy all you like!  Throw your milk on the floor, watch TV all you like!
"Chastise" can mean reprimand without caning.

You're obsessed with caning.  You do know that we are talking about spanking here, right?
No. You quoted verses about "beating" with a "rod" and "scourging." We must find how to interpret these verses in a way consistent with Christ's command "Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful."

I also changed my last message.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 03:36:20 AM by rakovsky » Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #182 on: January 19, 2013, 03:40:16 AM »

Isaiah 53:5

Wow!  Okay, I fold!  Kids, do what you want now!  Don't clean up your toys, shout at mommy all you like!  Throw your milk on the floor, watch TV all you like!
"Chastise" can mean reprimand without caning.

You're obsessed with caning.  You do know that we are talking about spanking here, right?
No. You quoted verses about "beating" with a "rod" and "scourging." We must find how to interpret these words in a way consistent with Christ's teaching "Be merciful as your Father is merciful to you."

I really don't see the connection.  You are taking verses that has nothing to do with childrearing, against verses that are about child rearing.  Besides, I was raised by a military father and only recently I found out I have ADD.  If my dad didn't go all-"Proverbs" on me, I can guarantee you I'd be jobless and in prison right now.  So you can throw then entire Bible in my face, I can guarantee you that spanking does work and if all parents do it (in the right way) then there will be less problems in the world today.  Not just because 2 or 3 dads beat their kids to death out of the thousands who spank, does not mean every dad (or mom) who spank their kids are child beaters.  Now THAT is casting the first stone, because that is being judgemental.
Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #183 on: January 19, 2013, 04:24:56 AM »

Quote
Makes sense. They are quick to dish out whippings to kids one third their own size, and if someone else has a conflict with them, they will react in the same way three times as strong, maybe punch you out or something, and think it's cool. After all, whipping little kids is a way for them to release their sociopathic rage bottled up, and they've had many years of being treated this way themselves.

Too bad they can't just go to the gym and take antibiotics to treat the worms/demons in their brains. Then see a Finnish priest who will tell them the beatings done to them were wrong. Then relax with some Comedy Central.
I have read some convoluted and torturous codswallop in my day, but this rates in the top ten.  Where do you conjure up such preposterous and ridiculous ideas?
You mean the idea that abusive parents have demons or treatable mental illness?
I mean all of it.  You are terribly detached from the truth.  You aren’t even in the ball park.  The percentage of people who spank their kids, to which your assertion applies, is so infinitesimal, it’s embarrassing.

You attempt to proclaim people who spank their children properly, are in the same category as those who abuse and beat their children.  Then you continue to state those same parents suffer from mental illness.  Your statement is, and I apologize for my shortness, asinine.

There is a big difference between disagreeing with/not utilizing spanking and attempting to demonize those who do with wild and irrational accusations.
Tweety was talking about people who "physically attack" children as punishment. When I think of a "physical attack" punishment on a child, I think of a very painful act that comes on quickly.

Yes, if a person's way is to be quickly angry and is quick to judge and punish little children in a hard, painful way, it is from demons, mental illness, or some other mental or spiritual problem the person has.

He seems to imply a "physcial attack" is a spanking.  The "first stone".
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #184 on: January 19, 2013, 04:36:41 AM »

Quote
You're obsessed with caning.  You do know that we are talking about spanking here, right?
Quote
No. You quoted verses about "beating" with a "rod" and "scourging." We must find how to interpret these words in a way consistent with Christ's teaching "Be merciful as your Father is merciful to you."
I really don't see the connection.
The connection is that the Old Testament, including Proverbs, has verses about stoning people and caning children. It's wrong to use these verses as Christian justifications to hit children, because Christ stopped it Himself: when someone was going to follow the old Testament rule about stoning people.

Jesus' reason for stopping the stoning was because No one is without sin. This is one of Christ's main ideas: to forgive people like God our Father removes punishment from us. That's why we pray it in the Lord's prayer.

Quote
Besides, I was raised by a military father and only recently I found out I have ADD. If my dad didn't go all-"Proverbs" on me, I can guarantee you I'd be jobless and in prison right now.  
I am glad things turned out well for you. But you can't guarantee they wouldn't have otherwise, since you did not ascend the other path. Someone can also go through a tough boot camp experience like some children do without painful bottom smackings being allowed.  


Quote
So you can throw then entire Bible in my face, I can guarantee you that spanking does work and if all parents do it (in the right way) then there will be less problems in the world today.  
No. Sweden and Greece do not have spanking and they are OK.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 04:40:24 AM by rakovsky » Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #185 on: January 19, 2013, 04:39:38 AM »

He seems to imply a "physcial attack" is a spanking.  The "first stone".
No stones. No spanking. No physical attacks. Mercy. Peace. Love.
Logged
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #186 on: January 19, 2013, 01:38:14 PM »

Quote
You're obsessed with caning.  You do know that we are talking about spanking here, right?
Quote
No. You quoted verses about "beating" with a "rod" and "scourging." We must find how to interpret these words in a way consistent with Christ's teaching "Be merciful as your Father is merciful to you."
I really don't see the connection.
The connection is that the Old Testament, including Proverbs, has verses about stoning people and caning children. It's wrong to use these verses as Christian justifications to hit children, because Christ stopped it Himself: when someone was going to follow the old Testament rule about stoning people.

Jesus' reason for stopping the stoning was because No one is without sin. This is one of Christ's main ideas: to forgive people like God our Father removes punishment from us. That's why we pray it in the Lord's prayer.

Quote
Besides, I was raised by a military father and only recently I found out I have ADD. If my dad didn't go all-"Proverbs" on me, I can guarantee you I'd be jobless and in prison right now.  
I am glad things turned out well for you. But you can't guarantee they wouldn't have otherwise, since you did not ascend the other path. Someone can also go through a tough boot camp experience like some children do without painful bottom smackings being allowed.  


Quote
So you can throw then entire Bible in my face, I can guarantee you that spanking does work and if all parents do it (in the right way) then there will be less problems in the world today.  
No. Sweden and Greece do not have spanking and they are OK.


Then how come most greeks spank their kids? greece as a government has prohibited. People however are by nature followers of what is illegal. Therefore they do it.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
tweety234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ask the Answer
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 628



« Reply #187 on: January 19, 2013, 01:41:53 PM »

He seems to imply a "physcial attack" is a spanking.  The "first stone".
No stones. No spanking. No physical attacks. Mercy. Peace. Love.

Agreed. But most people will ignore you, because their hearts have been given poison by their parents.
Logged

“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #188 on: January 19, 2013, 08:49:35 PM »

He seems to imply a "physcial attack" is a spanking.  The "first stone".
No stones. No spanking. No physical attacks. Mercy. Peace. Love.

I wish the entire world felt this way, but the reality is, it doesn’t.

Another reality is, this has nothing to do with spanking a disobedient child.
Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #189 on: January 19, 2013, 08:53:22 PM »

He seems to imply a "physcial attack" is a spanking.  The "first stone".
No stones. No spanking. No physical attacks. Mercy. Peace. Love.

Agreed. But most people will ignore you, because their hearts have been given poison by their parents.

I believe this is the point of the conversation I say goodbye and leave you to your incorrect beliefs. 
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,766



WWW
« Reply #190 on: January 22, 2013, 06:27:23 AM »

He seems to imply a "physcial attack" is a spanking.  The "first stone".
No stones. No spanking. No physical attacks. Mercy. Peace. Love.

Agreed. But most people will ignore you, because their hearts have been given poison by their parents.
Tweety, what about when parents have used soap on their children? The soap has medical warnings that it is not to be consumed. It is actually a poison. Like hitting children with objects, this was more common in previous decades, but the car company Chevy made a joke of this in a recent commercial. It is not really funny or healthy practice though, because people can become very sick from it.

The same kind of claims can be made about soaping children's mouths, right? And yet this is a poisonous practice.
Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #191 on: January 22, 2013, 06:37:56 AM »

He seems to imply a "physcial attack" is a spanking.  The "first stone".
No stones. No spanking. No physical attacks. Mercy. Peace. Love.

Agreed. But most people will ignore you, because their hearts have been given poison by their parents.
Tweety, what about when parents have used soap on their children? The soap has medical warnings that it is not to be consumed. It is actually a poison. Like hitting children with objects, this was more common in previous decades, but the car company Chevy made a joke of this in a recent commercial. It is not really funny or healthy practice though, because people can become very sick from it.

The same kind of claims can be made about soaping children's mouths, right? And yet this is a poisonous practice.
And what about those evil parents who let their children go outside to play in the dangers of sunlight, probably hoping they develop melanoma so they don’t have to support them any longer. 

Or those demon possessed parents who feed their children food, knowing that food causes health issues down the road, like cholesterol and all kinds of additives used to fertilize vegetables and put in the feed of animals. 

Even worse are those mentally unstable parents who don’t allow their kids access to the internet and homeschool them because they want to keep them uneducated and submissive, making it easier control them and able to control them longer. 

I think we should start a campaign against parents.  It’s obvious they don’t know what they are doing and children know what’s good for them much better than adults with years of experience.
Logged
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #192 on: January 22, 2013, 07:25:23 AM »

Checking in to see if people are still going on about the virtues of hitting kids.

Hoping that good taste would prevail, I thought maybe this thread wandered from the OP.

Of course this thread won't.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #193 on: January 22, 2013, 07:31:29 AM »

Checking in to see if people are still going on about the virtues of hitting kids.

Hoping that good taste would prevail, I thought maybe this thread wandered from the OP.

Of course this thread won't.
With Kerdy's posts, I wonder if that's who you quoted in your sig.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #194 on: January 22, 2013, 07:33:18 AM »

Checking in to see if people are still going on about the virtues of hitting kids.

Hoping that good taste would prevail, I thought maybe this thread wandered from the OP.

Of course this thread won't.
With Kerdy's posts, I wonder if that's who you quoted in your sig.

It was a dumb and obvious thing (the point of the .sig). But it was happening like crazy a few weeks ago. I was going nuts. Nothing to do with Kerdy per se, but you'll have to ask him.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 07:33:41 AM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
AustralianDiaspora
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 109



« Reply #195 on: January 30, 2013, 07:37:23 PM »

FWIW, I have spanked one of my daughters once because she ran across the road and was nearly hit by a car (glory to God, he wasn't speeding and saw her so slowed down). While I chose not to/didn't have to spank my children, some kids are just more challenging and different kids responding to different parenting styles. As long as a smack is done for discipline and not out of anger or sadism, I won't judge as I've not been in that position as a mother myself.
Logged

I can no longer cope with the misogynism, bigotry, homophobia and racism here and I have given up this forum. Lord have mercy.
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #196 on: January 30, 2013, 08:02:23 PM »

The connection is that the Old Testament, including Proverbs, has verses about stoning people and caning children. It's wrong to use these verses as Christian justifications to hit children, because Christ stopped it Himself: when someone was going to follow the old Testament rule about stoning people.

Jesus' reason for stopping the stoning was because No one is without sin. This is one of Christ's main ideas: to forgive people like God our Father removes punishment from us. That's why we pray it in the Lord's prayer.

I don't see the connection between stoning and spanking.  Stoning ends ones life, thus no more opportunity to reform.  Spanking is meant for someone to realize the gravity of the error they committed and ensures that message is well received not just by logic but by the language of the body.  The child spanked is then, hopefully, led to the correct path, that is reformed (or formed).  One who is stonned cannot reform.

Apples and oranges here.

I am glad things turned out well for you. But you can't guarantee they wouldn't have otherwise, since you did not ascend the other path. Someone can also go through a tough boot camp experience like some children do without painful bottom smackings being allowed.

The thing is, even if my dad is a tough cookie, he did everything because he loves us and wants us to be good, upstanding people when we grow up.  Yes there were times I did resent him, but at the end of it because he did everything in love that fact is not lost on me.  He was never the type who came home one day and beat the hell out of me because he just felt like it.  When I get something it is because I did something wrong.  Always.  I can't remember even one instance that he smacked my behind or screamed at me just because.  And he always tells my why I got punished.  I think that is important.  It is not just being punished, but the instruction that comes with it.

No. Sweden and Greece do not have spanking and they are OK.

Are you sure?  I know some Greeks who do spank.
Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,508


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #197 on: January 31, 2013, 12:29:10 AM »

Spanking is a very important part of child training.

The scriptures tell us to 'train up our children in the Lord'.

If a child is unable to 'honor his/her father and mother' by obeying them, then it is the duty of the parent to spank them in order for them to understand their boundaries.

In willful defiance, it is the duty of the parent to spank.  I believe part of the reason the world is so messed up today is because parents do not spank their children.  Your children will love you for keeping them in line.  Your children will love you because ultimately you set boundaries and learned 'you were not your own'.   If a child is very weak willed, perhaps, but most children need spankings to establish boundaries.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #198 on: January 31, 2013, 06:51:21 PM »

Joe Jackson, father of Michael Jackson and the other Jacksons, certainly didn't spare the rod:

"Joe Jackson’s role in developing the Jackson’s musical legacy has always taken a back seat to his notorious reputation as a parent.
....
“Yeah, they are too soft. One of the reasons I say that is because kids nowadays are killing their parents in some cases,” Jackson said. “Let’s get into this ‘beating’ thing. There’s no such thing as ‘beating a kid.’ You whip them or punish them over something they did, and they will remember that. And they’ll remember it in such a way that they won’t do it again. That’s the way I was.”"
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 06:52:02 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,503


« Reply #199 on: January 31, 2013, 06:57:37 PM »

Time outs are a very important part of child training.

The scriptures tell us to 'train up our children in the Lord'.

If a child is unable to 'honor his/her father and mother' by obeying them, then it is the duty of the parent to give them time outs in order for them to understand their boundaries.

In willful defiance, it is the duty of the parent to give time outs.  I believe part of the reason the world is so messed up today is because parents do not give time outs to their children.  Your children will love you for keeping them in line.  Your children will love you because ultimately you set boundaries and learned 'you were not your own'.   If a child is very weak willed, perhaps, but most children need time outs to establish boundaries.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 06:58:11 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Large Marge sent me...