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Author Topic: The Old Catholic Church  (Read 658 times) Average Rating: 0
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JamesR
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« on: November 29, 2012, 06:15:55 AM »

What exactly is the story and situation with these guys? As far as I know, they are just Roman Catholics who refused to accept Papal Infallibility and the other decisions that came out of the Vatican Council of the 1870s or something. If this is truly the case, then why haven't we Orthodox made any attempt to reconcile them to us or "draw them east"--for lack of a better term?
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 06:33:11 AM »

It's mainly the first Vatican Council, for the majority. When they clearly defined 'ex cathedra'.

But it seems my local old catholic church is fully Orthodox, they don't accept filioque, RC original sin and more or less seem to be Orthodox. They even use Icons, not statues. This is in Norway by the way. I don't understand it, surely not all old Catholics are like this?

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If this is truly the case, then why haven't we Orthodox made any attempt to reconcile them to us or "draw them east"--for lack of a better term?
Wouldn't that be Modernistic Ecumenism?   Grin
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 06:36:38 AM »

What exactly is the story and situation with these guys? As far as I know, they are just Roman Catholics who refused to accept Papal Infallibility and the other decisions that came out of the Vatican Council of the 1870s or something. If this is truly the case, then why haven't we Orthodox made any attempt to reconcile them to us or "draw them east"--for lack of a better term?

They are in union with the Anglicans (at least the churches within the Union of Utrecht are). That right there is an impediment in itself.
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 06:49:13 AM »

Paging ialmisry.
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 12:05:30 PM »

I looked into them to see how they were doing now. They have started ordaining women and doing same-sex unions.  Sad

The Polish National Catholic Church and the Nordic Catholic Church reject that and have formed their own union outside the Union of Utrecht, though they have married bishops, and that would seem to be the only obstacle for them being Orthodox. But there may be some other issue I am unaware of.

Edit: To be clear, they are only in communion with each other, not the Utrecht Old Catholics, nor the Anglicans.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 12:06:42 PM by Justin Kolodziej » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 12:17:12 PM »

If this is truly the case, then why haven't we Orthodox made any attempt to reconcile them to us or "draw them east"--for lack of a better term?

Answer #1: You know how the Orthodox are about ecumenism.

Answer #2: Would you really bother with them nowadays? (As already pointed out, they've become more liberal in the last couple decades, and the PNCC even broke off communion from them.)

Answer #3: I believe there has been some effort on both sides to improve relations (although probably not much in the last decade or so) even if we never heard much about it. Keep in mind that the Old Catholics are a relatively small group, so dialogue with them isn't exactly front-page news.
I'm pretty sure Bishop Kallistos Ware mentions them in The Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 12:26:48 PM by Peter J » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 12:31:38 PM »

I'm pretty sure Bishop Kallistos Ware mentions them in The Orthodox Church.

He does. I was a lifelong Catholic and that was the first I'd ever heard of the Old Catholic Church. My impression from reading Met. Kallistos's book was that notions of communion had been strong early on but faded over time.
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 12:38:28 PM »

What exactly is the story and situation with these guys? As far as I know, they are just Roman Catholics who refused to accept Papal Infallibility and the other decisions that came out of the Vatican Council of the 1870s or something. If this is truly the case, then why haven't we Orthodox made any attempt to reconcile them to us or "draw them east"--for lack of a better term?
The first western rite projects involved some converted Old Catholics who later left the Orthodox communion, and their modern-day descendants in the U.S. are the result of their claim to Orthodox lineage of "valid ordination."

The two names you see here, Vilatte and Harris, are almost listed in the present alleged Old Catholic pedigrees:

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In 1890 a Swiss Old Catholic parish in Wisconsin, pastored by Fr Joseph Rene Vilatte, was received by Bp Vladimir (Sokolovsky); however, Fr Vilatte soon led the church into Old Catholicism. In 1911 Arnold Harris Mathew, an Old Catholic bishop, entered into union with the Patriarchate of Antioch, but parted ways soon after, leaving behind a model for future Western Rite groupings to join Orthodoxy. In 1926 the six-parish Polish Catholic National Church was received into the Polish Orthodox Church, flourishing until wiped out by the Nazi's. Source.

The modern Utrecht union is comparable in theological liberalism to the U.S. mainline churches.
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 01:34:07 PM »

I cannot recall at what time (something tells me it was at sometime during Patriarch Athenagoras' patriarchy), but there was a dialogue between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Old Catholic Church.  I don't know what were the results of that dialogue.
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 01:53:40 PM »

The Old Catholics are a curious bunch.  I guess like Anglicans, there are some who are more conservative, and thus "orthodox", either from an Orthodox point-of-view or a Traditional Roman Catholic point-of-view.  And of course there are those who have become liberal and who will ordain anyone and anything.  Funny how so many wanna-be Roman Catholic groups trace their "valid ordinations" to an Old Catholic bishop.
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 02:27:32 PM »

I'm pretty sure Bishop Kallistos Ware mentions them in The Orthodox Church.

He does. I was a lifelong Catholic and that was the first I'd ever heard of the Old Catholic Church.

Oddly enough, I too can recall the very first time I heard of Old Catholics.

Back in grad school I had two housemates who went to an Eastern Catholic parish ... well, you probably don't want to hear about the first time I went to an EC parish; but anyhow another time one of those fellows mentioned a conversation about religion that he had involved in online (another concept I wasn't very familiar with at the time) and mentioned that one of the participants was an Old Catholic priest. Then he had to stop and explain b/c the rest of us heard "old Catholic priest".
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2012, 02:42:53 PM »

I'm pretty sure Bishop Kallistos Ware mentions them in The Orthodox Church.

He does. I was a lifelong Catholic and that was the first I'd ever heard of the Old Catholic Church.

Oddly enough, I too can recall the very first time I heard of Old Catholics.

Back in grad school I had two housemates who went to an Eastern Catholic parish ... well, you probably don't want to hear about the first time I went to an EC parish; but anyhow another time one of those fellows mentioned a conversation about religion that he had involved in online (another concept I wasn't very familiar with at the time) and mentioned that one of the participants was an Old Catholic priest. Then he had to stop and explain b/c the rest of us heard "old Catholic priest".

Same here.  Lifelong Catholic and only recently did I hear about them.  But I am surprised to learn that many of the pseudo-Catholic churches in the Philippines have sought "valid ordinations" from Old Catholic bishops.  And they are in communion with them.
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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 12:06:53 PM »

It's interesting that virtually all schismatic groups that leave our Church end up doctrinally drifting toward the liberal, Anglican-esque side. I am surprised that no groups that leave Rome for one reason or another end up uniting with Eastern Orthodoxy. After all, it is closer to the Catholicism that they are used to, minus communion with Pope Benedict XVI. You would think more breakaway groups would take an interest in the EOC for that reason.
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2012, 12:19:01 PM »

It's interesting that virtually all schismatic groups that leave our Church end up doctrinally drifting toward the liberal, Anglican-esque side. I am surprised that no groups that leave Rome for one reason or another end up uniting with Eastern Orthodoxy. After all, it is closer to the Catholicism that they are used to, minus communion with Pope Benedict XVI. You would think more breakaway groups would take an interest in the EOC for that reason.
The correspondence between the Lutherans at Tubingen and the Patriarch of Constantinople show that the imprint of the Vatican's heresies run deep.  Odd how they will continue to defend the filioque.

The Utroquists/Hussites went that direction when they were beginning to shake free of the Vatican. Some did join.  Some of those who didn't did later, and formed a core of the Orthodox Church of Czechoslovakia (the others being returnees to Orthodoxy from submission to the Vatican).
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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 12:22:54 PM »

A couple of Old Catholic  parishes joined the Polish Church in 1926.
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« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 12:32:07 PM »

A couple of Old Catholic  parishes joined the Polish Church in 1926.

Yes, but I think he is thinking as a corporate body.
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2012, 03:32:40 PM »

I looked into them to see how they were doing now. They have started ordaining women and doing same-sex unions.  Sad

The Polish National Catholic Church and the Nordic Catholic Church reject that and have formed their own union outside the Union of Utrecht, though they have married bishops, and that would seem to be the only obstacle for them being Orthodox. But there may be some other issue I am unaware of.

Edit: To be clear, they are only in communion with each other, not the Utrecht Old Catholics, nor the Anglicans.

The Slovak Old Catholic Church also left the Utrecht Union.
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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2012, 06:25:59 PM »

It's interesting that virtually all schismatic groups that leave our Church end up doctrinally drifting toward the liberal, Anglican-esque side. I am surprised that no groups that leave Rome for one reason or another end up uniting with Eastern Orthodoxy. After all, it is closer to the Catholicism that they are used to, minus communion with Pope Benedict XVI. You would think more breakaway groups would take an interest in the EOC for that reason.

In my humble opinion, there's such a thing as being too unecumenical (or anti-ecumenical). Union, for the Orthodox, can only mean unconditional surrender.
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2012, 11:47:55 PM »

It's interesting that virtually all schismatic groups that leave our Church end up doctrinally drifting toward the liberal, Anglican-esque side. I am surprised that no groups that leave Rome for one reason or another end up uniting with Eastern Orthodoxy. After all, it is closer to the Catholicism that they are used to, minus communion with Pope Benedict XVI. You would think more breakaway groups would take an interest in the EOC for that reason.

With the notable exceptions of the sedevacantists and conclave traditionalists, both of which tend to be very conservative.
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