OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 01, 2014, 03:46:14 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why are Mormon's not Christians?  (Read 3009 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,180



« on: November 30, 2012, 11:12:35 PM »

What in particular about there doctrines makes then non-Christians instead of heretics?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 11:13:00 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,419


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 11:22:00 PM »

What in particular about there doctrines makes then non-Christians instead of heretics?
I would argue that Mormons are Christians. However, the argument that they are not Christian includes the the idea that, for Mormons, matter is eternal (and was not created ex nihilo) and that human souls are eternal and uncreated. Mormons also believe in the pre-existence of souls, and the idea that the God that we worship, was once a human (or a human-like being) like us.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 11:56:24 PM »

What do you mean by the term "Christian"? If it refers to followers of Christ who get things exactly right, you have a very exclusive word. If it refers to those who are following Christ to the best of their ability, it's incredibly inclusive, and Mormons would fit into that definition.

Anything in between those two definitions seems like people are just picking at points as it suits them. Rather than first having a definition on hand, they first determine that Mormons/Baptists/Jehovah's Witnesses/Pentecostals/etc. are or aren't Christian, and then come up with reasons why.

I like the idea of using the Paschal troparion as the most basic measuring stick, and while I'm more familiar with Mormons than with the other denominations I listed, I think they would all agree wholeheartedly with the troparion's message. Maybe there are some denominations that wouldn't... and I'd struggle with that, because that is the Good News.

Or it could be that I'm picking at points just like everybody else.
Logged
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,180



« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2012, 12:07:43 AM »

What do you mean by the term "Christian"? If it refers to followers of Christ who get things exactly right, you have a very exclusive word. If it refers to those who are following Christ to the best of their ability, it's incredibly inclusive, and Mormons would fit into that definition.

Anything in between those two definitions seems like people are just picking at points as it suits them. Rather than first having a definition on hand, they first determine that Mormons/Baptists/Jehovah's Witnesses/Pentecostals/etc. are or aren't Christian, and then come up with reasons why.

I like the idea of using the Paschal troparion as the most basic measuring stick, and while I'm more familiar with Mormons than with the other denominations I listed, I think they would all agree wholeheartedly with the troparion's message. Maybe there are some denominations that wouldn't... and I'd struggle with that, because that is the Good News.

Or it could be that I'm picking at points just like everybody else.
I read in the thread on not marrying Jews two comments including Mormon's and Jehovah's Witnessness as not Christians. I guess they are not permissible spouses for Orthodox Christians. I don't understand why say Anglican or something is ok, but not them.

I googled the Paschal troparion. That could include some trippy heretical groups.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 12:08:42 AM by Anastasia1 » Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
Marc1152
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,640


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2012, 12:11:19 AM »

What in particular about there doctrines makes then non-Christians instead of heretics?

They disagree with Christians on the spiritual identity of Jesus Christ.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2012, 12:19:07 AM »

I read in the thread on not marrying Jews two comments including Mormon's and Jehovah's Witnessness as not Christians. I guess they are not permissible spouses for Orthodox Christians. I don't understand why say Anglican or something is ok, but not them.

I googled the Paschal troparion. That could include some trippy heretical groups.

You're right, an Orthodox Christian would not currently be able to marry them. Though I have no idea about the history of interfaith marriages in the Orthodox Church. Has it always been permissible to marry people of certain Protestant denominations? Catholics? Oriental to Eastern? If no, how long has it been the case?
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,891


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2012, 12:33:54 AM »

What in particular about there doctrines makes then non-Christians instead of heretics?
First and foemost they are polytheists.  While they say Father, Son and Holy Ghost the recognize each as a seperate god and indeed the goal of each man is to become a god and have their own planet to populate and rule over. 
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 12:55:14 AM »

What in particular about there doctrines makes then non-Christians instead of heretics?
First and foemost they are polytheists.  While they say Father, Son and Holy Ghost the recognize each as a seperate god and indeed the goal of each man is to become a god and have their own planet to populate and rule over. 

Any Mormon would balk at being called a polytheist, since they only worship one God. I have once heard a Mormon explain it more as monolatrism. They only worship the Father, in the name of the Son, through the Holy Spirit. Christ and the Father are one in a theosis type sense rather than in essence, and through Christ we may achieve the same.

Welp, can't accuse them of being modalists.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,253



« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2012, 01:15:48 AM »

I think they're most properly called henotheistic. They only actually worship one God (the Father), while accepting the deity of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Commonly also accept the deity of countless other gods of other worlds. This contrasts with polytheism which believes in AND worships multiple gods.

The complete denial of the Trinity is the biggest aspect that threatens their Christian status. They don't believe Christ to be of one Divine Essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit - they believe the three, the Godhead, are united in purpose and operation but not beyond that. Christ is a literal spiritual son of the Father, after all.

And I would argue that they effectively cannot agree whatsoever with the Nicene Creed - at least without widely reinterpreting it.
Logged
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,340


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2012, 01:17:51 AM »



 "'I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'
 'But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument',' Alice objected.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.'
 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master that's all'" -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass (Raleigh, NC: Hayes Barton Press, 1872), p. 72.

Wittgenstein held that the meaning of a word is its use. Trending today in contemporary academia regarding the word "Christianity" is, using Bart Ehrman as an example, the affirmation that anyone claiming to be a Christian was/is a Christian no matter what the particulars (literally almost anything goes) as I detailed in the following blog article from which I'll provide a brief excerpt for the purpose of illustration, after which I'll turn to Mormonism.

Quote
For Ehrman Christianity includes Gnosticism, Docetism, polytheism (ibid, p. 2), Ebionitism (ibid, pp. 99ff.), Marcionism (ibid, p. 103ff), Galatian Judaizers, Colossian angel worshipers, and the antinomian (lawless) libertines described in the epistle of James and the book of Revelation (ibid, p. 177). Even the false teachers castigated by Jude and 2 Peter are specifically called Christian by Ehrman, even though, as Ehrman admits, we don’t even know who they were or what they said (ibid). Here is the heart of Ehrman’s concept of what “Christian” means. It can mean anything, but actually means nothing at all.

All these groups are described by Ehrman as a part of early Christian diversity. Why? “I cannot emphasize enough that all of these opponents in all of these communities identify themselves as followers of Christ… what would all these groups of Christians have to say for themselves?” (ibid, p. 177). Ehrman seems to believe that anyone claiming a label deserves the benefit of doubt about it merely because they claim it. On this assumption, if Humpty Dumpty claims to be the legitimate Queen of England, we should believe him. Of course this presupposes that we know something about who or what the real Queen of England is supposed to be. If the antinomian (morally nihilistic) libertines cited by James and the book of Revelation claim to be Christians, who are we to deny it? (ibid, p.177). If Jewish mystics at Colossae who worshipped angels claim the label “Christian,” who are we to deny they were really Christians? (ibid, p.177).

If the reader will momentarily indulge the unmitigated audacity of the present author in using the phrase authentic Christianity as if there might actually be such a thing, in point of fact, if we don't deny antinomians and angel-worshippers were a part of authentic Christianity we are in fact no better “scholars” than Humpty Dumpty is the Queen of England, whether we teach at Chapel Hill or not. Why? Because even on the most radical historical critical assumptions we can find, it is quite undeniable that Jesus and his disciples were monotheistic Jews [2]
_______

[2] cf. L. W. Hurtado, One God, One Lord: Early Christian Devotion and Ancient Jewish Monotheism (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1988). Virtually all modern scholars acknowledge that Jesus and his disciples were traditional Jews (Ehrman, op cit, p. 96), which in and of itself is a major paradigm shift in biblical scholarship since, after the defeat of Hitler, anti-Semitic German Biblical scholarship (it was often overtly so from the 19th to the mid 20th century) which sought vigorously to minimize the influence of Judaism upon Christianity and to maximize the influence of Hellenism (Indo-European/Aryan), has been largely eclipsed. Today denial of the essential Jewish character of Jesus and his disciples is virtually unheard of. Ideology has often co-opted historical-critical scholarship from its inception to the present day.

Monotheistic Jews do not worship angels. Angel worshipers, then, cannot legitimately figure in, as Ehrman calls it, “A Modern Assessment of Early Christian Diversity” (at least not a good one). Another inextricable feature of both the historical Jesus and Primitive Christian message within the first decade of Christianity (the kerygma) is the ubiquitous call for repentance (see Colin Brown, ed., Dictionary of New Testament Theology, vol. 1, pp.353-362). Repentance is a turning away from sin and to God; antinomianism and libertinism are the precise opposite of this. If so, it would seem that no scholar worthy of the name could possibly affirm antinomianism and libertinism have any reasonable claim to be a part of “Early Christian Diversity,” yet that is precisely what Ehrman does affirm (op cit, p. 177)
. http://katachriston.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/bart-ehrmans-lost-christianities-a-critique-part-1/

No doubt those who would not hesitate to call Mormonism "Christianity" are legion today despite its denial of monotheism, despite ideas like the doctrine that God the father had his own father, who had his own father, and so on, or ideas such as God the father having been once was just like we are now before evolving into his godhood, despite its notion that Jesus over time similarly grew into being God, and etc.

If someone sympathizes with views like Ehrman's, they will have no problem calling Mormonism Christian. Personally I just cannot countenance the notion that any religion which denies monotheism as Mormonism does, is "Christian" in the traditional sense of considering Christianity to be a monotheistic religion ...call me old-fashioned.



Hec, I'll go out on a real limb and say any religion that denies the Nicene Creed (as Mormonism does) is not Christian!. That's *really* old-fashioned!


St. Nicholas punching Arius in the face at Nicea, circa AD 325. "Those were the days when girls were girls and men were men..."

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 01:37:39 AM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,096


« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2012, 01:21:06 AM »

Mormons preach a different Christ

Mormonism does not strike me as any kind of Christianity, even if I try to be as liberal as possible about what that means. My father's ex-wife converted to Mormonism over the course of their marriage, and honestly I had assumed that they were just another Protestant church before their missionaries started coming around to preach to her and try to preach to me (i.e., before I knew any better). Now I do not think so.
Logged

pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2012, 01:49:11 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3BqLZ8UoZk
I hope this explains it...
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 01:49:28 AM »


I can't speak to early LDS beliefs (after all, this video does refer to teachings by prophets such as Brigham Young), but Mormons have really mainstreamed their religious beliefs over the years, and Mormons today would find this video to be extremely offensive. I'm not trying to argue for the veracity of the LDS Church or the consistency of their teachings. But are today's Mormons Christian? I would say yes, unless we're trying to avoid the slippery slope xariskai is talking about, in which case maybe the Orthodox should only view themselves as Christians and be done with it.

Anastasia was looking for the line between heretic and flat out non-Christian. Are Arians heretical Christians, or are they not Christian at all? And if a heresy has already been determined, why is further distinction and label-giving important? (Besides curiosity, because I really am curious about how people would label Arians. I have some Visigoth ancestry, and they were Christianized through Arianism.)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 01:51:50 AM by Delphine » Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,253



« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2012, 01:58:48 AM »

I can't speak to early LDS beliefs (after all, this video does refer to teachings by prophets such as Brigham Young), but Mormons have really mainstreamed their religious beliefs over the years, and Mormons today would find this video to be extremely offensive. I'm not trying to argue for the veracity of the LDS Church or the consistency of their teachings. But are today's Mormons Christian? I would say yes, unless we're trying to avoid the slippery slope xariskai is talking about, in which case maybe the Orthodox should only view themselves as Christians and be done with it.

Anastasia was looking for the line between heretic and flat out non-Christian. Are Arians heretical Christians, or are they not Christian at all? And if a heresy has already been determined, why is further distinction and label-giving important? (Besides curiosity, because I really am curious about how people would label Arians. I have some Visigoth ancestry, and they were Christianized through Arianism.)

Except they're not just Arians. They think Christ is a literal deity, and not merely a creature below God (anymore).
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,553


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 02:03:23 AM »

Putting on my flamesuit, I would say that any non-Orthodox sect is not Christian. We only worship one God therefore only one faith about Him can be true. As far as I know, the Fathers never made these specific distinctions such as "heterodox"--in their eyes, anyone who rejected the Church was a heretical schismatic. There is NO salvation outside of the Church. There is only one group of people called Christians and that's the Orthodox Church. I know this seems harsh, but other than societies' ecumenical taboo against saying there is no salvation outside of one particular religion, I honestly cannot think of anything wrong with it. It saves us from all this silly confusing chatter as to how to label HERETICS without appearing rude. The Church should not change its position or ignore what is logically true just because it is deemed impolite and offensive by our ecumenist society. You either belong to the Church--the path to salvation--or you do not. There is no way around this. Salvation is ONLY found in the Church.

/hyperdox rant
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 02:06:41 AM »

Except they're not just Arians. They think Christ is a literal deity, and not merely a creature below God (anymore).

Urg, I hate to argue Mormon doctrine with someone named Nephi, but this is how I understood it:

Quote
Both Catholicism and Orthodoxy believe God to be the Creator of the universe, and that God´s being is trinitarian—that the persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist simultaneously in one divine nature. LDS doctrine is, on the other hand, tritheistic; it is subordinationist. The Son is subordinate to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is "sent forth by the will of the Father through Jesus Christ, his son."

Edit: And no, they aren't just Arians. Arians and Mormons would have LOTS to argue over, lol.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 02:12:06 AM by Delphine » Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,843


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2012, 02:11:12 AM »

What in particular about there doctrines makes then non-Christians instead of heretics?

They are heretics if you consider Islam a Christian heresy, which some do.

The reason they are considered non-Christians is because they deny the Trinity and believe (or at least believed) that Christ's atonement doesn't cover murder and you still need blood to be shed.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2012, 02:18:30 AM »

It has more in common with Scientology. Alot of science fiction.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,096


« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2012, 02:22:15 AM »

Delphine: I don't mean this in a rude way, but it does not really matter to me what Mormons find offensive. If it is true, then it is true. I wouldn't go out of my way to call them out (as though they are the only ones with strange beliefs), but as the question has been asked, I think that video provides as good an answer as any. The Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States has outlined the Coptic Orthodox opinion on Mormonism in its servants' preparation classes (starting on p. 35 of the PDF that is at that link), and it is decidedly even more negative than what is in that video, out and out calling Mormonism a cult. I have a hard time seeing how this is an unfair assessment, even if it isn't phrased as nicely as some others would like it to be. Particularly since the OP is in communion with us, it is probably a good idea to read up on it and think about what it says. If bishops of the Armenian Church warned against something being incompatible with the Christian faith, I'd want to know about it.  Smiley

None of this says, of course, that Mormons are bad people, or are going to hell, or anything like that. Most Mormons I've known are nice to a fault and if I were a pietist instead of Christian I would definitely say that they follow the "social gospel" (y'know, the one where what you believe doesn't matter) much better than I do. But as to them being Christian? No, I do not believe they can be said to qualify unless we have decided that Christianity is a meaningless "fill-in-the-blank" idea, which it can't be. Christianity means something to me, or else I would not have become Orthodox.
Logged

Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2012, 02:30:56 AM »

Delphine: I don't mean this in a rude way, but it does not really matter to me what Mormons find offensive. If it is true, then it is true.

But it not being true is the offensive part. If it offended with brutally honest truth, causing Mormons to take a good, hard look at their beliefs, that would be one thing, but any LDS person would dismiss that video, and any person referencing it, as a promoter of anti-Mormon propaganda and rumors. And that could easily shut down any further discussion you'd have with them.
Logged
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,096


« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2012, 02:39:12 AM »

Just like any person can dismiss anything they don't want to hear as baseless propaganda. What does that prove? The Fathers never let the heresiarchs be their own judges. If my own bishop says that Mormonism is a cult, and (importantly) backs that accusation up with reference to Mormonism's own literature, then dang it, it's a cult. And the Mormons themselves fashioned it that way via their own writings, so I don't really see what's to be defended here. I didn't write the BOM, Doctrines & Covenants, etc. They did that.

More "anti-Mormon" propaganda...from an active Mormon
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 02:40:38 AM by dzheremi » Logged

Nicene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 597


« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2012, 02:39:53 AM »

They deny the trinity and say peculiar things about the persons described in the trinity.

The father has a physical body. They are unsure as to his eternality.

The Son is not equal to the father.

That and other things. THey are in no way relatable to anything which might be called orthodox. I can call a baptist Christian because at least there is a common understanding about God, but nothing common between Mormonism and Christianity.
Logged

Thank you.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2012, 02:41:38 AM »

Can anyone give me statistics on the growth and expansion of the Mormons in America and the world please? From the past few decades? Professor?
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2012, 02:54:05 AM »

Just like any person can dismiss anything they don't want to hear as baseless propaganda. What does that prove? The Fathers never let the heresiarchs be their own judges. If my own bishop says that Mormonism is a cult, and (importantly) backs that accusation up with reference to Mormonism's own literature, then dang it, it's a cult. And the Mormons themselves fashioned it that way via their own writings, so I don't really see what's to be defended here. I didn't write the BOM, Doctrines & Covenants, etc. They did that.

More "anti-Mormon" propaganda...from an active Mormon

No, that video is pretty fantastic. The greater use of their own writings to show their history, the better. But note that the reason this video gives for "why people leave the LDS Church" is that most Mormons do not know these facts about their history, and so they haven't reconciled it with their belief system. The pdf you link from suscopts is also good when it cites, and by all means use what your Church says to inform your opinion about Mormons, but be aware that it's not always talking about current Mormon beliefs. It's the LDS that are around today that I've been concerned with.
Logged
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,096


« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2012, 03:01:08 AM »

So current Mormons no longer believe in the BoM or Doctrines & Covenants, etc.? And that somehow makes them Christians, despite not believing in the Holy Trinity, or the eternity of God or any of the other things that we as Christians believe in as per the Nicene Creed? I really don't see how this can be used to somehow prove that today's Mormons are any less non-Christian than their forefathers. Just because they keep moving the goalposts doesn't mean we can't look at the foundation of their faith and see that it is incompatible with ours.
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,473



« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2012, 03:05:55 AM »

So current Mormons no longer believe in the BoM or Doctrines & Covenants, etc.? And that somehow makes them Christians, despite not believing in the Holy Trinity, or the eternity of God or any of the other things that we as Christians believe in as per the Nicene Creed? I really don't see how this can be used to somehow prove that today's Mormons are any less non-Christian than their forefathers. Just because they keep moving the goalposts doesn't mean we can't look at the foundation of their faith and see that it is incompatible with ours.
We can't accept their "baptism," and they do not accept ours.  Only one of us is Christian, and we know which one it is.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2012, 03:17:03 AM »

So current Mormons no longer believe in the BoM or Doctrines & Covenants, etc.? And that somehow makes them Christians, despite not believing in the Holy Trinity, or the eternity of God or any of the other things that we as Christians believe in as per the Nicene Creed? I really don't see how this can be used to somehow prove that today's Mormons are any less non-Christian than their forefathers. Just because they keep moving the goalposts doesn't mean we can't look at the foundation of their faith and see that it is incompatible with ours.

They do still regularly use the BoM and D&C. It's mainly non-D&C statements made by prophets that slowly fall out of favor. They believe God's eternal with relation to this universe, and believe in the Holy Trinity (but differently), and that's how they've reasoned out their beliefs. I'm not sure how it differs with the reasoning of anyone else's beliefs that I disagree with.

And yes, their faith is incompatible with ours. It makes me think of my priest who, while OCA, would prefer to just baptize everyone who is being received into the Church and be done with it, because who are we to draw lines between people who are all outside of the Church? I recoiled at the idea of my one baptism not being valid, but that idea is sounding more and more sensible.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,253



« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2012, 03:20:09 AM »

and believe in the Holy Trinity (but differently),
I'm just clarifying this, but the only similarity is literally their use of the word "Trinity."
Logged
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,096


« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2012, 03:24:13 AM »

Yeah...I'm not seeing how "they believe in the Holy Trinity (but differently)" means anything. How many different Holy Trinities are there? Huh

I was glad to be rebaptized upon entering the Orthodox faith, by the way. I believe that this is the way that it should be done for all, barring some kind of agreement in the Church not to rebaptize a person from a particular tradition (which of course does not exist with regard to Mormonism, as by its own admission it is purposely outside of previous Christian traditions, which it regards as abominations).
Logged

Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,253



« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2012, 03:28:35 AM »

I was glad to be rebaptized upon entering the Orthodox faith, by the way. I believe that this is the way that it should be done for all, barring some kind of agreement in the Church not to rebaptize a person from a particular tradition (which of course does not exist with regard to Mormonism, as by its own admission it is purposely outside of previous Christian traditions, which it regards as abominations).

I was only baptized once before entering Orthodoxy, it was LDS and almost exactly three years ago. I am pretty grateful that I was received into the Church via baptism, and not just chrismation. Smiley
Logged
Nicene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 597


« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2012, 03:39:04 AM »

Yeah...I'm not seeing how "they believe in the Holy Trinity (but differently)" means anything. How many different Holy Trinities are there? Huh



Mormons use the term however it means something totally different for them. That is the father and the son and the spirit do not share the same substance of divinity, but are their own indivudal substances (The father and the son are both composed of flesh and I presume a different divinity spirit within mormonism), they are united only in purpose.  Bahai do the same thing with the trinity as well, redefine it and use the same word if only but to seem as if they agree with Christians.
Logged

Thank you.
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2012, 03:46:46 AM »

and believe in the Holy Trinity (but differently),
I'm just clarifying this, but the only similarity is literally their use of the word "Trinity."
Yeah...I'm not seeing how "they believe in the Holy Trinity (but differently)" means anything. How many different Holy Trinities are there? Huh

Ha, I was trying to keep things short. Tongue But what Nicene said. While the LDS Trinity functions similarly to what most Christians believe, who and what they are at their essence is certainly different. I agree that the difference is extremely important, since it informs our understanding of who God is.

People easily oversimplify the Trinity in one direction or another, and Mormons shifted hard against modalism. I know that for me, thinking about the Trinity boggles my mind, and I most likely have a piddly simplified understanding of it myself.
Logged
Nicene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 597


« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2012, 03:55:20 AM »

Mormons have pretty much embraced near paganism, but thats only the case if they give the same worship to Christ as they would to the father and these two are seperate entities. Otherwise they might be closer to arianism. Mormons are just as confused on the topic of who their God is and refuse to define their beliefs.
Logged

Thank you.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,077


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2012, 05:13:26 AM »

Aren't Muslims closer to Christianity than mormons are?
Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
pmpn8rGPT
Grammar Nazi in three languages.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox (old calendarist)
Posts: 1,038


Proof that Russia won the Space Race.


« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2012, 04:45:48 PM »

Can anyone give me statistics on the growth and expansion of the Mormons in America and the world please? From the past few decades? Professor?
I heard from a mormon that it is about 400,000 souls per year
Logged

"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,096


« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2012, 05:12:58 PM »

I don't know the exact numbers, but this article might help put whatever numbers you do find into perspective, as there are a lot of claims about Mormonism being America's "fastest growing religion" (just like Islam, and "None"-ism...somehow, these are all the fastest-growing, depending on what day of the week you open the paper): Mormon Numbers Not Adding Up
Logged

Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,419


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2012, 09:30:03 PM »

Yeah...I'm not seeing how "they believe in the Holy Trinity (but differently)" means anything. How many different Holy Trinities are there? Huh



Mormons use the term however it means something totally different for them. That is the father and the son and the spirit do not share the same substance of divinity, but are their own indivudal substances (The father and the son are both composed of flesh and I presume a different divinity spirit within mormonism), they are united only in purpose.  Bahai do the same thing with the trinity as well, redefine it and use the same word if only but to seem as if they agree with Christians.
I think one can make a case that Mormons do believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of the same "divine" substance. What they all have in common is (1) spirit (the Father and the Son have spirit and a body, while the Holy Spirit is pure spirit) and (2) divinity. What makes them "divine" may be a bit mysterious, but they clearly "have" whatever it takes to be divine; thus, one can speak of all of them as having the "divine substance". This identity of divine substance is reflected in having an identity of will and purpose. They are separate persons/beings, nonetheless.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,253



« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2012, 12:19:42 AM »

I think one can make a case that Mormons do believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of the same "divine" substance. What they all have in common is (1) spirit (the Father and the Son have spirit and a body, while the Holy Spirit is pure spirit) and (2) divinity. What makes them "divine" may be a bit mysterious, but they clearly "have" whatever it takes to be divine; thus, one can speak of all of them as having the "divine substance". This identity of divine substance is reflected in having an identity of will and purpose. They are separate persons/beings, nonetheless.

The problem with saying they have "the divine substance" is that it is not meant in the sense of actually sharing, and co-exemplifying, the very same divinity between the members of the Godhead. Rather, they each have separate divine substances that are unique to each one respectively. The only way to call it these the same substance would be to speak of them as resembling each other's substance sufficiently or identically, but not as numerically the same.

As you said, it would be an identity of will and purpose, but not a literal shared-exemplification of the very same substance. And an identity of will and purpose is not sufficient for true unity and oneness, otherwise such would not have been condemned as heresy in Christology.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 12:20:32 AM by Nephi » Logged
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,340


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2012, 01:31:59 AM »

Here are a few additional representative statements to add to the pot.

"Mormons have a very difficult time understanding why Orthodox and other Christians deny that they are Christian. The simplest answer to this question is that the Mormon god is simply not God--at least not the God worshiped by Orthodox Christians (and other Trinitarians). This does not mean that the Mormons are necessarily immoral or wicked people, simply that they worship a god completely dissimilar from the Christian Trinity."  http://orthodoxwiki.org/Mormonism

Cf. also statements re. refusal to accept Mormon baptism by Roman Catholics,[1] Lutherans (ELCA),[2] United Methodists,[3] and Presbyterians (PCUSA); other similar examples can easily be found on the net.
________
[1] http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html

[2] "Today, we ask more than "Was water used?" and "Were the words ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ used?" Our concern must focus on faithfulness to the Word of God. When Christians baptize, they do so trusting that God will act to join the baptized to the life of the Holy Trinity—one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This faith is found where a genuine Christian Baptism has occurred. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not hold the traditional Christian teaching about the Holy Trinity. Rather, it seems to treat each person of the Trinity as a separate deity. Because the faith of the church is different from Mormon teaching, whether or not Mormon baptism is a Christian Baptism is a valid question. "Outside the context of trinitarian life and teaching no Christian Baptism takes place, whatever liturgical formula may be used." (The Use of the Means of Grace, application 24D) The last statement moves us beyond issues about the liturgical rite and points us to consider the teaching of the church and its faith in a trinitarian God. Although Mormons may use water — and lots of it — and while they may say "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," their teaching about the nature of God is substantially different from that of orthodox, creedal Christianity. Because the Mormon understanding of the Word of God is not the same as the Christian understanding, it is correct to say that Christian Baptism has not taken place. A former Mormon joining an ELCA congregation may be offered Christian Baptism (not rebaptism)." https://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Worship/Learning-Center/FAQs/HolyBaptism_should-Lutherans-rebaptize.aspx

[3] "...belief regarding a gendered, married, and procreating god is at the core of LDS doctrine of God and makes claims about the essential nature of God that are in sharp contrast to the doctrinal statements of United Methodism... Basic Christological differences exist between the two traditions... Most notably, the Jesus of the LDS tradition is not co-eternal with the Father and 'of one substance with the Father.' On the contrary, he is thought to be begotten of the Father (and Heavenly Mother) as are all pre-mortal spirits... Of course, these convictions stand in clear opposition to the creeds of the apostolic Christian tradition and to the doctrinal standards of The United Methodist Church... The LDS understanding of the nature of salvation diverges radically. According to the LDS, human beings are literally the children of the Heavenly Father (and Mother) in their pre-mortal, spiritual form, as was Jesus. Their spirits are begotten of the Father, not created. This makes them of the same order of existence as God: according to LDS theology, there are already in existence the three gods of the Godhead and a god who presumably presided over the mortality of the Father. There will be more gods to come, as at least some of those at an earlier stage of the 'divine continuum' will become gods, as did the Father. Thus by traditional Christian definition, the LDS faith is polytheistic, and the role of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is decidedly compromised." http://www.gbod.org/site/apps/nlnet/content3.aspx?c=nhLRJ2PMKsG&b=5794307&ct=7779075

[4] " Latter-day Saints and the historic churches view the canon of scriptures and interpret shared scriptures in radically different ways. They use the same words with dissimilar meanings. When the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints speaks of the Trinity, Christ's death and resurrection, and salvation, the theology and practices related to these set it apart from the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant churches. It is the practice of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to receive on profession of faith those coming directly from a Mormon background and to administer baptism. Presbyterians do not invite officials of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to administer the Lord's Supper."  http://www.truthandgrace.com/Presbyterianonmormon.htm
Logged

Silly Stars
soderquj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOAA, Metropolis of Denver
Posts: 234



WWW
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2012, 11:12:03 AM »

As an ex Mormon I will way in. The following links are to a document I am working on (please do not distribute it as it is still being worked) that compares the beliefs and practices of the Orthodox and Mormons. I will let you decide. As I say in the header of the ebook. Please use this information in Christian compassion rather than judgment, when discussing our differences.

www.tgoc.ut.goarch.org/web/content/download/Orthodox-mormonism-new.pdf

www.tgoc.ut.goarch.org/web/content/download/Orth-vs-Morm.epub


FYI the red text are the edits by a Orthodox Priest adding to or correcting the content.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 11:15:47 AM by soderquj » Logged

O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
soderquj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOAA, Metropolis of Denver
Posts: 234



WWW
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2012, 11:46:06 AM »

As an ex Mormon I will way in. The following links are to a document I am working on (please do not distribute it as it is still being worked) that compares the beliefs and practices of the Orthodox and Mormons. I will let you decide. As I say in the header of the ebook. Please use this information in Christian compassion rather than judgment, when discussing our differences.

www.tgoc.ut.goarch.org/download/Orthodox-mormonism-new.pdf


FYI the red text are the edits by a Orthodox Priest adding to or correcting the content.

Sorry original link was bad and ebook won't download
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 12:01:14 PM by soderquj » Logged

O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
soderquj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOAA, Metropolis of Denver
Posts: 234



WWW
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2012, 12:12:57 PM »

 Angry  Cant get ebook to work sorry if you want it message me your email.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 12:14:24 PM by soderquj » Logged

O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
Adrian82
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Jerusalem
Posts: 3


« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2012, 08:59:19 AM »

I would say Mormens are not Christians. If you Do not believe in the Trinity, Multiplicity of deities and that the holy bible is the only God given scripture.

So if you believe in say white native Americans who were preached to by Jesus when there never where white native Americans. If you believe in a endless number of Gods. If you believe salvation is being God and ruling over your own world. If you believe that all this was reveled to us by a guy with magical spectacles. If you believe this, you really should not be called a christian.  There is a huge difference between what is common belief among all Christians even if they disagree on some doctrine and what is way outside of that.
Logged
Nicene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 597


« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2012, 05:41:18 PM »

Multipicity of Deities? I think some clarification is needed.
Logged

Thank you.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,473



« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2012, 05:54:09 PM »

Multipicity of Deities? I think some clarification is needed.
the believe each of the Persons of the Trinity are separate gods, and if we obey them, we separately can become gods as well.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.145 seconds with 73 queries.