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Author Topic: Just a random act of kindness  (Read 3553 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: December 02, 2012, 06:06:47 AM »

It saddens me to see this thread spiral into some unrealistic, impractical expectation of society being forced to soothe the multitudes that have no desire to help themselves, ignoring the hundreds of programs in almost every city across this country designed to get people back on their feet if they want to be there.   I have no problem helping a poor unfortunate soul in desperate need, as long as that person is willing to do their part to help themself.  On the other side, I find it inexcusable for someone to expect me to give a handout to someone who will squander it and demand more.  This is based on the ever increasing rise of people on government programs that never seem able to get off of said programs, creating an entitlement society as well as a society unable to support itself.  It makes us weak.

This officer did a good thing and rather than focus on that, people want to know why more wasn’t done.  Shame on you!  The example he set IS the example we should follow, yes, as Orthodox Christians.  All of the pomposity spewed here is meaningless diatribe floating down from the perches from whence it was loosed, like acid rain.  He, the officer, went out of his way, used his own personal resources, to do a kind thing for a fellow human being, who surely appreciated the gesture, but most likely will in no way lift himself up to a higher place as a result.  This certainly should not deter someone who wishes to give in such a way, certainly not, but reality is reality and each person should be aware of it at all times.  So, back to the officers’ actions...  This is how Christians should help each other.  Out of the kindness of their heart, out of the duty they feel as a Christian, without some “higher” social value attached to that action.  This is the way it should be done, as we each have the ability and desire to do, NOT through government sources, NOT through higher taxes funding programs none of us want to support, but from the bottom up.  The top down has never worked and never will.  History demonstrations this, clearly.

So, if you are able and willing to open your home, go for it, but DO NOT chastise someone else who doesn’t, like me.  (I will not open my home to someone I do not know because I know what people are capable of and have no intention of placing my family at risk for some social experiment.)  That places you in the position of conducting yourself in a non-Christian fashion and teeters on hypocrisy.  I find it most interesting those who usually do this are the first to demand no one cast judgment on them.  In any event, focus on the good deed done for the proper reason and go from there, on your own path, without pointing fingers at others for “not doing enough”, even though we, collectively, do more for humanity in charity that the rest of the world combined.  
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« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 06:12:25 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #91 on: December 02, 2012, 09:12:32 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
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« Reply #92 on: December 02, 2012, 09:16:27 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.

Well said.
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« Reply #93 on: December 02, 2012, 09:20:36 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
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« Reply #94 on: December 02, 2012, 09:32:02 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
What is poverty, Peter?
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« Reply #95 on: December 02, 2012, 10:11:04 PM »


"Kindess" is lovely fleeting feeling people like to have once in a while. You can still have that.


Chrestotes (Kindness) is actually one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.  Watch for my book analysis of "The Inner River" by Dr. Kyriacos Markides in Reviews where I'll have much more to say about it.
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« Reply #96 on: December 02, 2012, 10:13:01 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
What is poverty, Peter?
How do you define it? Ultimately, I'm only addressing That person's and your definition of poverty, since you're the ones calling it our job to alleviate poverty.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 10:55:28 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #97 on: December 02, 2012, 10:24:38 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
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« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2012, 11:18:37 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.

Well said.
Thanks. While it's been interesting, I really don't have much of a horse in this debate, but I thought I should clarify things for people who struggle in reading comprehension.
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« Reply #99 on: December 02, 2012, 11:20:00 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more.
Uh, huh.... Roll Eyes (sorry Opus).
Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues
ah, there you go again alleging such issues and then assUme conclusions from them.

And again, if Officer DiPrimo had shot Mr. Hillman, no doubt the ensuring hysteria would be taken as focusing us on "massive systemic issues."

that allow poverty like this
like what?

to exist in America.
Oh, did they pass some ban on poverty here that I missed?

It's a reasonable point I think.
You thought wrong.

There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.
It is a bad thing to ask what are the names of these alleged nations?

In fact, I don't know of a single nation that adequately feed and clothe their populations.  Most populations, wealthy or less wealthy, feed and clothe themselves.  As it should be.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States
it is, when all is said and done, the only thing that has.
and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that.
the idea is that, being contagious, it wouldn't be limited to "one action."
We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Oh, and what "grander picture" would that be?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 11:24:45 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #100 on: December 02, 2012, 11:20:43 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.

Well said.
Thanks. While it's been interesting, I really don't have much of a horse in this debate, but I thought I should clarify things for people who struggle in reading comprehension.
how about those who can read between the lines?
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« Reply #101 on: December 02, 2012, 11:33:30 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
This is actually a great point.  America's idea of poverty is rich in comparison to the rest of the world.  All the things we THINK we need, we really don't.  Earthly possessions are not a right and few things do we actually need.  

In this country, the first step in eliminating poverty is for people to stop being lazy.  When that happens, we can talk about other potential issues.
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« Reply #102 on: December 02, 2012, 11:37:53 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.

If he never had money, how was Judas the Treasurer?
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« Reply #103 on: December 02, 2012, 11:45:23 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
This is actually a great point.  America's idea of poverty is rich in comparison to the rest of the world.  All the things we THINK we need, we really don't.  Earthly possessions are not a right and few things do we actually need.  

In this country, the first step in eliminating poverty is for people to stop being lazy.  When that happens, we can talk about other potential issues.
Stop talking out of your butt please.

My father was on the verge of poverty because he couldn't get a job to sustain himself, his wife, my sister and his mother. He had sent out hundreds of applications and only a few interviews were given (He has the applications to prove it too, I mean it's stacked. Plus he tracks this sort of thing on Excel).

After 2 years of searching, he finally got a really nice job and averted potential poverty.

Don't give me this BS about how people need to stop being lazy. There are PLENTY of people who want to find work but none are there.

Also, there are plenty of folks based in social circumstances that cannot have good enough employment to not be in poverty. There really isn't such a thing called social mobility anymore, its a myth.

You don't even know what poverty is dude.

Seriously that post makes me furious.
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« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2012, 11:49:29 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
This is actually a great point.  America's idea of poverty is rich in comparison to the rest of the world.  All the things we THINK we need, we really don't.  Earthly possessions are not a right and few things do we actually need.  
It's funny, as often as I hear this sort of drip, it's never been from anyone who's actually experienced poverty. Just an observation. And yeah, I've personally seen poverty in the developing world. It's deplorable. And you know what? That doesn't do a damn thing to alleviate suffering here. Probably. I'm sure somewhere out there there's a homeless guy with a sadistic streak, happily dreaming of a man in Bangkok who hasn't eaten in three days.

So what, pray tell us, Kerdy, is a right?
Quote
In this country, the first step in eliminating poverty is for people to stop being lazy.  When that happens, we can talk about other potential issues.
Which people exactly? Because I can take this statement in a few ways, one radical, one reasonable, and one simply deplorable. I strongly and sadly suspect you're getting at the latter.

I'll try to get you later, Isa. That depth of quote-warring is a little daunting at the moment.
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« Reply #105 on: December 03, 2012, 12:01:30 AM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.

If he never had money, how was Judas the Treasurer?
Judas, wasn't he the guy who said the nard should have been sold and the money give to the poor?  I guess he was human services secretary as well.
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« Reply #106 on: December 03, 2012, 02:56:09 AM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
This is actually a great point.  America's idea of poverty is rich in comparison to the rest of the world.  All the things we THINK we need, we really don't.  Earthly possessions are not a right and few things do we actually need.  

In this country, the first step in eliminating poverty is for people to stop being lazy.  When that happens, we can talk about other potential issues.
Stop talking out of your butt please.

My father was on the verge of poverty because he couldn't get a job to sustain himself, his wife, my sister and his mother. He had sent out hundreds of applications and only a few interviews were given (He has the applications to prove it too, I mean it's stacked. Plus he tracks this sort of thing on Excel).

After 2 years of searching, he finally got a really nice job and averted potential poverty.

Don't give me this BS about how people need to stop being lazy. There are PLENTY of people who want to find work but none are there.

Also, there are plenty of folks based in social circumstances that cannot have good enough employment to not be in poverty. There really isn't such a thing called social mobility anymore, its a myth.

You don't even know what poverty is dude.

Seriously that post makes me furious.
Sorry you are upset.  That's doesn't mean I'm talking out of my butt.  I grew up poor, but my parents always had a job of some sort until they could get a better one.
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« Reply #107 on: December 03, 2012, 03:10:17 AM »

But seriously, with so much automation and "labor saving" going on, we should be getting a living wage for no more than 30 hours a week.

Seriously, why this expectation of spending so much time "at work" when we keep making ways to do stuff with less people and effort.

The government should provide a guaranteed minimum income. A long term goal of society should be unemployment. Unskilled Labor is cheap and should be voluntary or better yet, automated.

You know I just thought of something, what's the point of rights in general? It's all liberal make-believe stuff that is trotted out every so often for rhetorical purposes. I say we focus on fulfilling concrete needs: food, water, housing, and a greater purpose.

And Kerdy, until you realize that unemployment has nothing to do with a lack of work, and everything to do with a lack of opportunities for profit, get back to me.

To each according to their ability, from each according to their need. No seriously laissez-faire capitalism is a good system guys.
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« Reply #108 on: December 03, 2012, 06:26:04 AM »

But seriously, with so much automation and "labor saving" going on, we should be getting a living wage for no more than 30 hours a week.
Why?  Is there a such thing as an automated plumber?  What about electrician?  Truck driver?

Seriously, why this expectation of spending so much time "at work" when we keep making ways to do stuff with less people and effort.
 
Here is an idea.  Don’t people have to build those things which make work easier?  When was the last time you went to an automated doctor or called for emergency services from an automated paramedic or police officer.  The last time I went to McDonalds, the service persons were real people.


The government should provide a guaranteed minimum income.
 
They do.  It’s called minimum wage.

You know I just thought of something, what's the point of rights in general? It's all liberal make-believe stuff that is trotted out every so often for rhetorical purposes. I say we focus on fulfilling concrete needs: food, water, housing, and a greater purpose.
 
In this country, rights are provided by the constitution.  Those rights can’t be taken away.  All the things you just listed is protected under “The Pursuit of Happiness”.

And Kerdy, until you realize that unemployment has nothing to do with a lack of work, and everything to do with a lack of opportunities for profit, get back to me.
 
You are wrong, period.  Most of the people I have met who are unemployed are in that position because they refuse to do something they don’t like.  I know of an engineer who lost a triple digit paying job and worked part time jobs doing anything he could find to pay the bills and eventually had to move over three states to get a decent job, leaving everything behind.  The work is there.

I admit there are some who sincerely are unable to find a job, any job.  However, they are the exception and what you fail to realize is the exception is not the rule.  If you have one million people addicted to drugs and only two thousand  of them are addicted due to no fault of their own, you don’t use the two thousand as the standard.  

If you read what I wrote, you would have seen where I said the lazy people are where we START, not finish.  As a result of not reading it, you set out into some outburst accusing me of things which are not true at all and saying I have no first-hand knowledge, when I clearly remember my mother regularly skipping meals so we would have enough to eat.  I also remember at some points in my childhood rarely seeing my father and when he was home he was sleeping from taking up any work he could find.  And the best part, I was one of the fortunate ones.  Many people I know had it harder.  I know poverty and getting one pair of pants and one shirt a year that were not hand-me-downs.  But again, my parents took any work that could be found with one purpose, to keep us off government assistance.  This didn’t always happen, but when it did, it was short lived as my mother hated using food stamps and getting welfare cheese/bread/milk, etc.  As I already stated, those programs are designed to help people get back on their feet, not sustain life indefinitely.  

To each according to their ability, from each according to their need. No seriously laissez-faire capitalism is a good system guys.
Capitalism provided some of the greatest advancements and improvements in the history of man.  It’s people that became the problem.  
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 06:29:25 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #109 on: December 03, 2012, 10:46:18 AM »

But seriously, with so much automation and "labor saving" going on, we should be getting a living wage for no more than 30 hours a week.
Why?  Is there a such thing as an automated plumber?  What about electrician?  Truck driver?
No, but there are such things as unions, who determine who get said jobs.  That is, if one has such skills and the opportunity to develop them.
Seriously, why this expectation of spending so much time "at work" when we keep making ways to do stuff with less people and effort.
 
Here is an idea.  Don’t people have to build those things which make work easier?  When was the last time you went to an automated doctor or called for emergency services from an automated paramedic or police officer.  The last time I went to McDonalds, the service persons were real people.
The last one is available, except in a labor glutt like now.  The others involve training, which means time and $$$.

The government should provide a guaranteed minimum income.
 
They do.  It’s called minimum wage.
A lot of people who make minimum wage are overpaid, a consequence of entitlement society.  You would also be surprised how many are not hired because of being overqualified.

You know I just thought of something, what's the point of rights in general? It's all liberal make-believe stuff that is trotted out every so often for rhetorical purposes. I say we focus on fulfilling concrete needs: food, water, housing, and a greater purpose.
 
In this country, rights are provided by the constitution.  Those rights can’t be taken away.  All the things you just listed is protected under “The Pursuit of Happiness”.
Actually, according to what the Declaration of Independence (which you are quoting) says, the Constitution protects rights, it doesn't provide them.  Solicitor General Kaegan was wrong on that.

And Kerdy, until you realize that unemployment has nothing to do with a lack of work, and everything to do with a lack of opportunities for profit, get back to me.
 
You are wrong, period.  Most of the people I have met who are unemployed are in that position because they refuse to do something they don’t like.  I know of an engineer who lost a triple digit paying job and worked part time jobs doing anything he could find to pay the bills and eventually had to move over three states to get a decent job, leaving everything behind.  The work is there.
and with that triple digit job, he had the funds to get there.  Most do not have such reserves.

So there is lack of work, lack of opportunities, and laziness.  Every case is unique, sometimes a combination of all three.

I admit there are some who sincerely are unable to find a job, any job.  However, they are the exception and what you fail to realize is the exception is not the rule.  If you have one million people addicted to drugs and only two thousand  of them are addicted due to no fault of their own, you don’t use the two thousand as the standard.  

If you read what I wrote, you would have seen where I said the lazy people are where we START, not finish.  As a result of not reading it, you set out into some outburst accusing me of things which are not true at all and saying I have no first-hand knowledge, when I clearly remember my mother regularly skipping meals so we would have enough to eat.  I also remember at some points in my childhood rarely seeing my father and when he was home he was sleeping from taking up any work he could find.  And the best part, I was one of the fortunate ones.  Many people I know had it harder.  I know poverty and getting one pair of pants and one shirt a year that were not hand-me-downs.  But again, my parents took any work that could be found with one purpose, to keep us off government assistance.  This didn’t always happen, but when it did, it was short lived as my mother hated using food stamps and getting welfare cheese/bread/milk, etc.  As I already stated, those programs are designed to help people get back on their feet, not sustain life indefinitely.
 
Yes, a hand up, not out.  The way it is set up now, it fosters a way of life.

To each according to their ability, from each according to their need. No seriously laissez-faire capitalism is a good system guys.
Capitalism provided some of the greatest advancements and improvements in the history of man.  It’s people that became the problem.
 
"To each according to their ability, from each according to their need" has failed every time it has been tried.
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« Reply #110 on: December 03, 2012, 12:21:08 PM »

Looks like them shoes went quickly, perhaps to buy some more of those "goodies" on the streets?

OK, you idealists, time to chime in;

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/nyregion/barefoot-homeless-man-says-hes-grateful-for-boots.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&_r=0

Homeless Man Is Grateful for Officer’s Gift of Boots. But He Again Is Barefoot.By MARC SANTORA and ALEX VADUKUL
Published: December 2, 2012

After Officer Lawrence DePrimo knelt beside a barefoot man on a bitterly cold November night in Times Square, giving him a pair of boots, a photo of his random act of good will quickly took on a life of its own — becoming a symbol for a million acts of kindness that go unnoticed every day and a reminder that even in this tough, often anonymous city, people can still look out for one another.

Officer Lawrence DePrimo received widespread news coverage for his generosity, but little was known about the man he helped, Jeffrey Hillman.
Officer DePrimo was celebrated on front pages and morning talk shows, the Police Department came away with a burnished image and millions got a smile from a nice story.

But what of the shoeless man?

The rest of the article can be read by clicking the link above.

Article truncated to first two paragraphs to enforce compliance with forum rules prohibiting the copying and pasting of full-length articles. -PtA

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« Reply #111 on: December 03, 2012, 01:23:04 PM »

Looks like them shoes went quickly, perhaps to buy some more of those "goodies" on the streets?

OK, you idealists, time to chime in;
yeah, I purposely avoided getting too much into the facts of Mr. Hillman's life, to keep the focus on Officer DiPrimo and his alleged shortcomings (telling, perhaps, I don't recall wasting the boots on Mr. Hillman's being brought up as one of them).
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« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2012, 01:17:24 AM »

Given the rambling, stream of affected consciousness nature of your posts, physician, perhaps you might heal thyself
http://www.designsojourn.com/how-to-avoid-mental-masturbation/

When it comes to matters of such masturbation, pardon me if I don't follow the advice of eunuchs.

Wouldn't you, though, as an Orthodox Christian?
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« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2012, 02:08:00 AM »

And Kerdy, until you realize that unemployment has nothing to do with a lack of work, and everything to do with a lack of opportunities for profit, get back to me.
 
You are wrong, period.  Most of the people I have met who are unemployed are in that position because they refuse to do something they don’t like.  I know of an engineer who lost a triple digit paying job and worked part time jobs doing anything he could find to pay the bills and eventually had to move over three states to get a decent job, leaving everything behind.  The work is there.
and with that triple digit job, he had the funds to get there.  Most do not have such reserves.

So there is lack of work, lack of opportunities, and laziness.  Every case is unique, sometimes a combination of all three.


What country/century are we living in where a triple digit paying job can do anything? Five figures barely breaks poverty level, triple figures is peanuts- even if those digits are 999. Unless, of course we are speaking of hourly wage- even then some clarity is needed- $7.25 has three digits.
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« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2012, 11:53:18 AM »

It saddens me that we live in a time when a simple act of charity can be the lightening rod for the explosion of such passion online regarding 'macro' issues which have little to do with the impulsive, natural Christ-like act of the officer in question. The issue is not really the 'worthiness' of the recipient or the issue of poverty in a land of plenty or the plight of those who are either mentally ill or disaffected by society - after all our Saviour also noted that the poor shall always be among us - but it is rather the selfless, Samaritan-like act of the cop that moves us and drives the narrative. I think that his actions are the 'sermon' present in the scenario - and the follow up by others is not unlike the lesson of the talents or the ungrateful servants. As long as we have men and women among us who will respond in a manner like that urged upon us by Christ in Scripture and by the teachings of the Fathers and the Church all is not lost. Lord have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2012, 02:12:43 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
This is actually a great point.  America's idea of poverty is rich in comparison to the rest of the world.  All the things we THINK we need, we really don't.  Earthly possessions are not a right and few things do we actually need.  

In this country, the first step in eliminating poverty is for people to stop being lazy.  When that happens, we can talk about other potential issues.
Stop talking out of your butt please.

My father was on the verge of poverty because he couldn't get a job to sustain himself, his wife, my sister and his mother. He had sent out hundreds of applications and only a few interviews were given (He has the applications to prove it too, I mean it's stacked. Plus he tracks this sort of thing on Excel).

After 2 years of searching, he finally got a really nice job and averted potential poverty.

Don't give me this BS about how people need to stop being lazy. There are PLENTY of people who want to find work but none are there.

Also, there are plenty of folks based in social circumstances that cannot have good enough employment to not be in poverty. There really isn't such a thing called social mobility anymore, its a myth.

You don't even know what poverty is dude.

Seriously that post makes me furious.
You seem to be one of them people who get all "uppidity" about your level of poverty or something, that seems to be the new American past time, who "be the most poh-est" and all that. Let me tell you something, your not poor if you live in this country, bottom line, especially if you don't want to work, this country does nothing but reward sloth and complacency. I can't count how many people I know who are grinding it out every  day on the job and can barely put food on the table and what little money left over is sucked up by the federal, state and local tax theifs to pay for a whole segment of the culture who refuse to pull their weight but have everything paid for them. I know people get some bad breaks in life, i'm one of them, but it's not that bad here yet where you just quit and sit back and wait for big daddy gov't to bail your butt out. and it's just not the poor with this mentality either, this applies to all those fatcats down on Wall St holding hat in hand waiting for the next "stimulus" package.

Americans have lost their edge from the top down, one big Welfare state with the "gimme dat" mentality.
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« Reply #116 on: December 04, 2012, 02:25:06 PM »

It saddens me that we live in a time when a simple act of charity can be the lightening rod for the explosion of such passion online regarding 'macro' issues which have little to do with the impulsive, natural Christ-like act of the officer in question. The issue is not really the 'worthiness' of the recipient or the issue of poverty in a land of plenty or the plight of those who are either mentally ill or disaffected by society - after all our Saviour also noted that the poor shall always be among us - but it is rather the selfless, Samaritan-like act of the cop that moves us and drives the narrative. I think that his actions are the 'sermon' present in the scenario - and the follow up by others is not unlike the lesson of the talents or the ungrateful servants. As long as we have men and women among us who will respond in a manner like that urged upon us by Christ in Scripture and by the teachings of the Fathers and the Church all is not lost. Lord have mercy on us all.

This sounds good but is problematic. Probably won't have much time till the weekend, but I would note as I mentioned above, the poor are not with us anymore, or not with many of us at least. And I would argue that among many abuses of Scripture that one often takes the cake.

And this thread has so much sprawl it is crazy.

It is clear that many different things are being argued and that Isa in his "responses" to me are nothing but strawmen.

Miss a day or so, miss a lot.

And if these are my last words, could someone move them to the appropriate thread.

Thanks.

Maybe, I'll shoot something this weekend, but after either discussing this with people where it is likely to make a difference, I am not sure of the point of shooting any signal into this noise.

Frankly, the responses and misreadings are as telling as anything I could do.

*, this post live up to your criteria?

Not feeling well and very behind in everything in life. It is exactly like last year but different.

I'll try to catch up with PMs, emails, etc. later this week.
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« Reply #117 on: December 04, 2012, 05:53:10 PM »

Well, as someone who's actually been homeless, my two cents :

Government welfare is faceless and unloving, which is why Mother Theresa's disbanded her huge corporate charity bureaucracy to get back to her roots; BUT today communities are so fractured often they cannot provide. So, maybe, at first, state funds controlled by LOCAL communities (The Catholic/Anglican economic ideas of the Red Tories)

Many of my homeless friends, and I myself, really were perversely unwilling to better ourselves. Many were also mentally ill, drug addicted etc
I don't think there is anything intrinsically bad about being poor. My understanding was that the poor are here for us to practice virtue, as persons (another reason impersonal government is not, ultimately, the solution)

At our church, we apparently had alot of trouble getting folks to help out at soup kitchens, since many parishioners were hard working immigrants who refused to help people who often were judged lazy and ungrateful.

BUT, thankfully, I don't have to rely on my fallen opinion. Apparently it doesn't matter if they're lazy or "unworthy" because I am unworthy of life, and Christ has sacrificed Himself regardless ! To give to someone who doesn't "deserve" it is to act like God !  

 From the Great and Most Holy St John Chrysostom, whose mass I celebrate every Sunday :

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into its own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune. God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. . . . A judge is one thing, an almsgiver is another."

"By this we are taught that when we do not show mercy, we will be punished just like those who steal. For our money is the Lord’ s, however we may have gathered it."

"I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor"

“For if you wish to show kindness, you must not require an accounting of a person's life, but merely correct his poverty and fill his need.”

“The poor man has one plea, his want and his standing in need: do not require anything else from him; but even if he is the most wicked of all men and is at a loss for his necessary sustenance, let us free him from hunger.”

“When you see on earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune.”

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”

“Need alone is the poor man's worthiness . . .”

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”
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« Reply #118 on: December 04, 2012, 09:11:41 PM »

You seem to be one of them people who get all "uppidity" about your level of poverty or something, that seems to be the new American past time, who "be the most poh-est" and all that.
I'm not in "poverty".

Furthermore thank you for acknowledging that poverty is clear as mud to you, and the rest of the goonsquad on this board. It's the same stupid talking points day after day which are completely removed from reality.

Quote
Let me tell you something, your not poor if you live in this country, bottom line,
Tell that to the face of millions of Americans that are on the verge of homelessness if they miss out on just one paycheck.

Tell that to the face of millions of Americans who can barely get by on the essentials to survive.

Tell that to the face of those who do not have heat to keep them warm at night.

Tell that to the face of those that go to bed hungry every night because they cannot afford food.

You don't have the balls to do it.

Quote
especially if you don't want to work, this country does nothing but reward sloth and complacency.
And what rewards are we talking about here? Yes how dare the poor get food stamps to actually eat to survive. How dare those poor get a roof over their heads and try to get their lives back in order to get out of poverty, oh wait we have designed the system to not even allow social mobility. Do you realize how hard it is for one person to move classes? It is extremely rare.

You're going to need to change your conception of what "work" actually is in the new few decades. One day we will have the technology that will not require us "to work" anymore.

What do you do, as your profession? Do you "work"? It's like my upper managers, they don't work at all. They get to play golf 3 days a week and get obscene amount of bonus money. Talk about alot of "work" they do.


Quote
I can't count how many people I know who are grinding it out every  day on the job and can barely put food on the table and what little money left over is sucked up by the federal, state and local tax theifs to pay for a whole segment of the culture who refuse to pull their weight but have everything paid for them.
Count me as one of those people that has paid way more than 10 grand in taxes this year. But you know what we need those social programs so if I get screwed out of my job, there is a safety to catch me and get me back on my feet.

People may not have the ability to pull their weight for a ton of reasons. I am fine helping them but I want to do more. I'm glad you have such a low opinion of our fellow man.

Every man is made in the image and likeness of God. The least of what you do to them, the least you do to Him.

Quote
I know people get some bad breaks in life, i'm one of them, but it's not that bad here yet where you just quit and sit back and wait for big daddy gov't to bail your butt out.
How about the ones that get fired over BS? And can't manage to get a job in 2-3 years? "Oh can't get a job, that's too bad have fun dying in that gutter on the street"

Quote
Americans have lost their edge from the top down, one big Welfare state with the "gimme dat" mentality.
Oy vey.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 09:11:58 PM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #119 on: December 04, 2012, 09:15:14 PM »

A lot of people who make minimum wage are overpaid, a consequence of entitlement society.  You would also be surprised how many are not hired because of being overqualified.

Look at this complete and utter disgusting stupidity.

How the hell is 7.50 an hour OVERPAID?!?! And especially since those on minium wage are part time?

You don't see them rolling around in an Escalade, Gucci linens, and pulling up to their mansions

They can't even cobble together 3 of those jobs to even make it. How long would it take a mininum wage worker to afford All Weather boots the police officer provided the homeless man? A long time. I know because I was on minimum wage myself at 6.00 an hour my first job.

And yes they shouldn't be hired if they are overqualified. Too much of a risk with turnover. And you need to give those that do not have the experience yet, to have it.

So you know they never get into poverty.
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« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2012, 01:33:05 AM »

Your not impressing me Achronos. I'm not "moved" by your bleeding heart mentality, I've been working and raising children longer than you've been breathing oxygen, so give it a rest already. I know way too much about this world than you could possibly fathom, don't preach to me about the "poor" or hard times, been there, done that, I know the deal about the real world and I've seen more than my share of scam artists in my time. You see shoeless boy in the OP? I've seen them guys everyday working in the city, it's always the same gaff, the same old tired line, the same ol "brother can you spare a dime" story when I had barely enough to get back on the train to get home after busting my butt at  work and yet, I would , when I could, throw them a bone but when I didn't, I wouldn't and not have a slightest guilt of conscience either way. Whatever. We all make our way in life and determine our own fate in a way, most of us create our own reality or at least the conditions we find our selves in, like the bible says "what ever a man soweth" and all that. But one thing I don't do is play the blame game or try to shame others for their success (or failures) and I certainly don't walk aroung guilt-ridden about the plight of others for whatever reason, I didn't cause it and I'm not certainly going to fix anything. I just do the best I can and move on.

But one thing I don't need is a life-lesson from a still wet-behind-the-ears twenty-something, Internet keyboard warrior for "social justice". i know the reality of the situation out there and whatever your peddling, I'm not buying.

Sorry to dissappoint you.

Oh and don't worry about what work I do, I can assure you I earn my paycheck every week, can you say the same?
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« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2012, 01:52:42 AM »

Well, as someone who's actually been homeless, my two cents :

Government welfare is faceless and unloving, which is why Mother Theresa's disbanded her huge corporate charity bureaucracy to get back to her roots; BUT today communities are so fractured often they cannot provide. So, maybe, at first, state funds controlled by LOCAL communities (The Catholic/Anglican economic ideas of the Red Tories)

Many of my homeless friends, and I myself, really were perversely unwilling to better ourselves. Many were also mentally ill, drug addicted etc
I don't think there is anything intrinsically bad about being poor. My understanding was that the poor are here for us to practice virtue, as persons (another reason impersonal government is not, ultimately, the solution)

At our church, we apparently had alot of trouble getting folks to help out at soup kitchens, since many parishioners were hard working immigrants who refused to help people who often were judged lazy and ungrateful.

BUT, thankfully, I don't have to rely on my fallen opinion. Apparently it doesn't matter if they're lazy or "unworthy" because I am unworthy of life, and Christ has sacrificed Himself regardless ! To give to someone who doesn't "deserve" it is to act like God !  

 From the Great and Most Holy St John Chrysostom, whose mass I celebrate every Sunday :

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into its own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune. God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. . . . A judge is one thing, an almsgiver is another."

"By this we are taught that when we do not show mercy, we will be punished just like those who steal. For our money is the Lord’ s, however we may have gathered it."

"I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor"

“For if you wish to show kindness, you must not require an accounting of a person's life, but merely correct his poverty and fill his need.”

“The poor man has one plea, his want and his standing in need: do not require anything else from him; but even if he is the most wicked of all men and is at a loss for his necessary sustenance, let us free him from hunger.”

“When you see on earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune.”

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”

“Need alone is the poor man's worthiness . . .”

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”


I think we deal with a different demographic makeup, but it does not matter. This is a wonderful post!

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« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2012, 02:18:29 AM »

It saddens me that we live in a time when a simple act of charity can be the lightening rod for the explosion of such passion online regarding 'macro' issues which have little to do with the impulsive, natural Christ-like act of the officer in question. The issue is not really the 'worthiness' of the recipient or the issue of poverty in a land of plenty or the plight of those who are either mentally ill or disaffected by society - after all our Saviour also noted that the poor shall always be among us - but it is rather the selfless, Samaritan-like act of the cop that moves us and drives the narrative. I think that his actions are the 'sermon' present in the scenario - and the follow up by others is not unlike the lesson of the talents or the ungrateful servants. As long as we have men and women among us who will respond in a manner like that urged upon us by Christ in Scripture and by the teachings of the Fathers and the Church all is not lost. Lord have mercy on us all.
Excellent post all around!  Thank you!
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« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2012, 03:18:50 AM »

Your not impressing me Achronos. I'm not "moved" by your bleeding heart mentality, I've been working and raising children longer than you've been breathing oxygen, so give it a rest already. I know way too much about this world than you could possibly fathom, don't preach to me about the "poor" or hard times, been there, done that, I know the deal about the real world and I've seen more than my share of scam artists in my time. You see shoeless boy in the OP? I've seen them guys everyday working in the city, it's always the same gaff, the same old tired line, the same ol "brother can you spare a dime" story when I had barely enough to get back on the train to get home after busting my butt at  work and yet, I would , when I could, throw them a bone but when I didn't, I wouldn't and not have a slightest guilt of conscience either way. Whatever. We all make our way in life and determine our own fate in a way, most of us create our own reality or at least the conditions we find our selves in, like the bible says "what ever a man soweth" and all that. But one thing I don't do is play the blame game or try to shame others for their success (or failures) and I certainly don't walk aroung guilt-ridden about the plight of others for whatever reason, I didn't cause it and I'm not certainly going to fix anything. I just do the best I can and move on.

But one thing I don't need is a life-lesson from a still wet-behind-the-ears twenty-something, Internet keyboard warrior for "social justice". i know the reality of the situation out there and whatever your peddling, I'm not buying.

Sorry to dissappoint you.

Oh and don't worry about what work I do, I can assure you I earn my paycheck every week, can you say the same?

I thought the reply by Achronos to your post was sincere and one of his best posts on the forum. I applaud him for it.

What disturbs me about your attitude is that  you judge the motivation of an entire class of people based on a few examples (either through the news or from some limited personal experience).

Quote
I've been working and raising children longer than you've been breathing oxygen, so give it a rest already. I know way too much about this world than you could possibly fathom, don't preach to me about the "poor" or hard times, been there, done that, I know the deal about the real world and I've seen more than my share of scam artists in my time.

Unless your are 80 years old you do not have that much more experience than me. Scam artists are few and far between. I prefer Achronos's bleeding heart to a dead one. And I am moved by his bleeding heart.

Quote
But one thing I don't do is play the blame game ....

Your posts belie this statement in my opinion.

Quote
But one thing I don't need is a life-lesson from a still wet-behind-the-ears twenty-something, Internet keyboard warrior for "social justice". i know the reality of the situation out there and whatever your peddling, I'm not buying.

This is what sets us apart. I have been teaching twenty-somethings for over 40 years. At the same time I have been learning from twenty-somethings for over 40 years. I can go over this in more detail, but most successful scientists have no qualms about asking twenty-somethings for their advice.

Getting back to my original thought. The post you were complaining about should have been admired.
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« Reply #124 on: December 07, 2012, 10:47:10 AM »

Well I had a draft written to Charles, but I deleted it. I wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone. Just trying to get you to actually open your eyes up to reality. I'm rather tired of the same rhetoric that is parroted without any critical thinking. The fact that I am pointing out deficiencies amongst Christians in regards to ending "poverty" or meeting solvency, says more than it really should.

But what I'm really saying is that unions were necessary in the past but serve no purpose in the modern age. I trust our corporations implicitly to not tear every penny possible out of my flesh and, when I am too run down to work anymore, feed my still breathing body into the furnaces of industry that choke the sky and poison the water. Hail Mammon, Hail.
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« Reply #125 on: December 07, 2012, 11:23:08 AM »

Well I had a draft written to Charles, but I deleted it. I wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone. Just trying to get you to actually open your eyes up to reality. I'm rather tired of the same rhetoric that is parroted without any critical thinking. The fact that I am pointing out deficiencies amongst Christians in regards to ending "poverty" or meeting solvency, says more than it really should.

But what I'm really saying is that unions were necessary in the past but serve no purpose in the modern age. I trust our corporations implicitly to not tear every penny possible out of my flesh and, when I am too run down to work anymore, feed my still breathing body into the furnaces of industry that choke the sky and poison the water. Hail Mammon, Hail.
I see that you haven't defined for us yet what you mean by "poverty".
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« Reply #126 on: December 07, 2012, 11:26:33 AM »

Well I had a draft written to Charles, but I deleted it. I wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone. Just trying to get you to actually open your eyes up to reality. I'm rather tired of the same rhetoric that is parroted without any critical thinking. The fact that I am pointing out deficiencies amongst Christians in regards to ending "poverty" or meeting solvency, says more than it really should.

But what I'm really saying is that unions were necessary in the past but serve no purpose in the modern age. I trust our corporations implicitly to not tear every penny possible out of my flesh and, when I am too run down to work anymore, feed my still breathing body into the furnaces of industry that choke the sky and poison the water. Hail Mammon, Hail.
I see that you haven't defined for us yet what you mean by "poverty".
It doesn't matter how I define it, I am pointing out how it is defined by you and the rest. It doesn't exist, we are all too entitled. Remember, I asked the question first and never got an answer.
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« Reply #127 on: December 07, 2012, 11:32:38 AM »

Well I had a draft written to Charles, but I deleted it. I wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone. Just trying to get you to actually open your eyes up to reality. I'm rather tired of the same rhetoric that is parroted without any critical thinking. The fact that I am pointing out deficiencies amongst Christians in regards to ending "poverty" or meeting solvency, says more than it really should.

But what I'm really saying is that unions were necessary in the past but serve no purpose in the modern age. I trust our corporations implicitly to not tear every penny possible out of my flesh and, when I am too run down to work anymore, feed my still breathing body into the furnaces of industry that choke the sky and poison the water. Hail Mammon, Hail.
I see that you haven't defined for us yet what you mean by "poverty".
It doesn't matter how I define it, I am pointing out how it is defined by you and the rest. It doesn't exist, we are all too entitled. Remember, I asked the question first and never got an answer.
Because how I define "poverty" is irrelevant to my statement that the Gospel doesn't call us to alleviate poverty, a statement I made only in reply to a post by That person. If there's anyone who owes us a definition of the word "poverty", it's That person, not me, since he was the one who implied that it's our job to alleviate it.

But since you asked me, I'm not going to answer your question until you first answer mine. Is that rude? Well, Jesus answered a question with a question.
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« Reply #128 on: December 07, 2012, 12:52:06 PM »


You're all missing the point.

The question here is not WHY they are poor, but, what WE do for them who are poor.

Christ instructed us to LOVE our neighbor, and in doing so, we cannot help but, help them when we see they need ANY kind of help.

He didn't apply a "filter" to whom we should help.

When He said to visit those in prison, He didn't only mean those wrongly accused.  When He said to feed the hungry, He didn't say only those who have been hungry for over a week because they've lost their jobs, but, have tried to find another, and aren't merely lazy, etc.

The shocking thing in this thread is that you are JUDGING who deserves your help and who doesn't.

IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO HELP....THEN DON'T!  But, don't judge the people who are poor.  You have no idea how they came to be where they are today....and perhaps God made them so, SIMPLY TO TEST YOU and your reaction to them.


 
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« Reply #129 on: December 07, 2012, 01:45:22 PM »


You're all missing the point.

The question here is not WHY they are poor, but, what WE do for them who are poor.

Christ instructed us to LOVE our neighbor, and in doing so, we cannot help but, help them when we see they need ANY kind of help.

He didn't apply a "filter" to whom we should help.

When He said to visit those in prison, He didn't only mean those wrongly accused.  When He said to feed the hungry, He didn't say only those who have been hungry for over a week because they've lost their jobs, but, have tried to find another, and aren't merely lazy, etc.

The shocking thing in this thread is that you are JUDGING who deserves your help and who doesn't.

IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO HELP....THEN DON'T!  But, don't judge the people who are poor.  You have no idea how they came to be where they are today....and perhaps God made them so, SIMPLY TO TEST YOU and your reaction to them.
Precisely why I haven't sidetracked on Mr. Hillman's situation in discussion to those who found fault in the OP.
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« Reply #130 on: December 07, 2012, 02:17:46 PM »


You're all missing the point.
Who's missing the point?
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« Reply #131 on: December 07, 2012, 02:26:47 PM »



....the people who are complaining that the poor are only poor because they are lazy....and not availing themselves of the various programs available to them, etc.
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« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2012, 02:28:20 PM »



....the people who are complaining that the poor are only poor because they are lazy....and not availing themselves of the various programs available to them, etc.
To be fair, this didn't come up until those who criticized the motivations of those lending a helping hand and their inadequacies.
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« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2012, 03:58:52 PM »

Let us learn from this man not to call the rich lucky nor the poor unfortunate. Rather, if we are to tell the truth, the rich man is not the one who has collected many possessions but the one who needs few possessions; and the poor man is not the one who has no possessions but the one who has many desires. We ought to consider this the definition of poverty and wealth. So if you see someone greedy for many things, you should consider him the poorest of all, even if he has acquired everyone’s money. If, on the other hand, if you see someone with few needs, you should count him the richest of all, even if he has acquired nothing.

- St. John Chrysostom 

If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs. 

- St. John Chrysostom 

By this we are taught that when we do not show mercy, we will be punished just like those who steal. For our money is the Lord’ s, however we may have gathered it.
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« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2012, 05:11:05 PM »

Well I had a draft written to Charles, but I deleted it. I wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone. Just trying to get you to actually open your eyes up to reality. I'm rather tired of the same rhetoric that is parroted without any critical thinking. The fact that I am pointing out deficiencies amongst Christians in regards to ending "poverty" or meeting solvency, says more than it really should.

But what I'm really saying is that unions were necessary in the past but serve no purpose in the modern age. I trust our corporations implicitly to not tear every penny possible out of my flesh and, when I am too run down to work anymore, feed my still breathing body into the furnaces of industry that choke the sky and poison the water. Hail Mammon, Hail.
I see that you haven't defined for us yet what you mean by "poverty".
It doesn't matter how I define it, I am pointing out how it is defined by you and the rest. It doesn't exist, we are all too entitled. Remember, I asked the question first and never got an answer.
Because how I define "poverty" is irrelevant to my statement that the Gospel doesn't call us to alleviate poverty, a statement I made only in reply to a post by That person. If there's anyone who owes us a definition of the word "poverty", it's That person, not me, since he was the one who implied that it's our job to alleviate it.
This seems decent enough from what I've read. Feel free to offer critique of it.

Also, I'm really curious what Kerdy considers "rights," since that's what a lot of his arguments hinge upon.
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