OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 18, 2014, 02:34:55 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Just a random act of kindness  (Read 4567 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Opus118
Site Supporter
Warned
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,703



« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2012, 07:32:02 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.

I do not see the point in private forums. If you feel there is some utility in joining, let me know. I also do not consider the topic political. If you feel I am incorrect about this, let me know. I know both Andriu and Vamrat are perfectly capable of putting me down with both tact and a sense of humor. I admire your debating skills and I appreciate criticism. You should lighten up a bit.

Logged
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2012, 07:36:47 PM »

My point about the PMs, Isa is that people who would not have access to the private area are happy to see this discussion.

We both know where we are "politically" in how this board typically defines politics.

Of course this is a political topic in the sense that all things are political. Anyone with you knowledge of Greek would understand what I am saying here.

Rather than get into long and drawn out and tedious historical made up case studies, my critique remains and will remain just that a critique of this sorta behavior and its celebration as an effective method of furthering ideology which is actually anti-Christian today. This behavior knows no political party bounds. Both conservatives and liberals to use those words loosely engage in and celebrate such actions.

So this isn't a conservative vs. liberal issue as both necessarily are part of the working ideology which creates these moments.

But I beg time. I do have a lot happening and I am thinking about more than a few things at once. Frankly, I thought people would just tell me to get lost except for those who know me well enough to understand from whence this critique comes and possibly goes.

In short, photos, maps, figures, charts, of failed socialism of the 20th century have no bearing here.

Questions of God's justice and what that might look like if one is to take it seriously in late-capitalist societies do.

So if you have maps, charts, and tables for that, start your cutting and pasting.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2012, 07:39:28 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.

I do not see the point in private forums. If you feel there is some utility in joining, let me know. I also do not consider the topic political. If you feel I am incorrect about this, let me know. I know both Andriu and Vamrat are perfectly capable of putting me down with both tact and a sense of humor. I admire your debating skills and I appreciate criticism. You should lighten up a bit.



It is political in the sense of the polis and who participates in it and how those who can do participate in it. But as in my reply above, this is not about "American party politics".

Both liberals (often more so than conservatives, as they take them more personally) find my criticisms around late-capitalist solutions to poverty and economic injustice to be problematic.

OK, I must get back to life after looking at the board once more.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 07:40:18 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Opus118
Site Supporter
Warned
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,703



« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2012, 07:49:23 PM »

The inn keeper's story is the story of a man who was entrusted with caring for the sick without being paid the whole amount right away. Given the promise of full payment later on for all the care he will provide. The inn keeper agreed to that deal, showing compassion can be practiced even when one is being paid for what one is doing. The inn keeper took the sick man in with faith, with compassion, and with dedication to tend to his care until the man healed. Restoring the man to health was in the interest of the inn keeper. The good Samaritan was good enough to find a good inn keeper worthy of  being trusted to care for the sick man. So does a just society must create a system that works for a lasting solution to its societal problem. At the time the good Samaritan did what he could for the sick man, but for the long painful process he knew he can not provide by himself he sought and found the innkeeper and brokered a deal that will enable the sick man to get  the care he needed to get well completely. The individual also has a role to play. It is in the cooperation of these two men that the sick man gets taken care of for a lasting recovery from his ailment. The roadside emergency work might stabilize the sick temporarily and it is absolutely important in those critical moments but it can not be a reliable source of health care for the long painful recovery to full health and maintenance of health. I say this to state that I do believe that  Government has a role to play in eradicating poverty, in caring for the most venerable members of the society etc with the right implementation of  just policies. The united we stand slogan has a deeper meaning and far-reaching societal impact than just being an occasional patriotic ejaculation …



The picture  as well as the exaggerated public celebration are both beautiful and grotesque at once. I guess it depends how you look at it. Some see a poor homeless guy being helped by another fellow human being and thus see the beauty of the act, others in addition to the beauty see in the picture a homeless man barefooted in what is reported as a bone breaking cold day in front of a shoe store surrounded by what he needed to survive yet which he can not have thus the slow tortures death of one who knows his life is not worth the price of  one of those hanging shoes on display. Dignity lost, the mockery of ones insignificance amplified in such manner, despair settles in the heart of even the strongest among us. Some of us know that a human being can be destroyed even while the physical health remains intact. That picture triggers mixed reaction from some of us , not always the ooh ahh moment some expect it to be. Do not be surprised if you do not hear what you expect, some see what others do not, and some believe in certain solutions in a manner others do not . If some were to say it is not easy to give, thus all the accolade for the givers must be due, still others will tell us that it is not easy to receive such gifts so they demand our accolades to be accompanied with justified indignation and outrage on the behalf of  the one who must perpetually receive to survive, never to know what it is to thrive. The spectrum of the response to such things is interesting, but the fact that we find the call for a more lasting and most importantly meaningful solution a debatable issue is quite depressing. What orthonorm said is quite sublime and deep and true. I know I am guilty of most of the things he has mentioned in relation to the poor. I know it is not only  in the interest of society in general to provide  justice for the plight of the poor, the mentally ill the disenfranchised  so as to create a healthy productive society, but it is also the right and for us a Christian thing to do. What does it say about us as a society to live in a first world and sceneries of depravity and suffering  like these are so norm that the none normative astounding thing becomes the act of  a fellow human being’s kindness to the society at large. Quite sobering. If you think about it.


Your voice is a gift from God Hiwot.  It is a blessing in my life to experience it.
Logged
ZealousZeal
Gainsaying Helpmeet
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: ✔
Posts: 2,763


look into my lovable alpaca eyes


« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2012, 07:50:48 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
Logged

"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2012, 08:00:13 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.

I do not see the point in private forums. If you feel there is some utility in joining, let me know. I also do not consider the topic political. If you feel I am incorrect about this, let me know.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know both Andriu and Vamrat are perfectly capable of putting me down with both tact and a sense of humor. I admire your debating skills and I appreciate criticism. You should lighten up a bit.
I'm as light hearted as need be. Maybe more.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2012, 08:13:48 PM »

Is it wrong that we should scale back our criticism of this man, even just slightly? It's not like this officer has thousands of homes that are unoccupied so he could shelter the homeless. Perhaps instead of just giving the man socks and shoes, he could help assist him in finding living (looks like he tried to feed him but left, so I guess I can cross this out). That's part of protecting and serving, which we don't see too much of these days.

Bringing a homeless man to his house may not be sustainable either. I know for me if I housed a few homeless people myself, I could not sustain them on my salary.

But what I am critical of are those that have made a sensation about this, like ZealousZeal said, he still is homeless, so the problem really isn't fixed here.

Providing housing to all, should not be even considered an entitlement, but a right. If folks want to get better housing than one provided to them, either by government subsidy or whatever, then that should be their choice to work to get such a thing. Which I think in this framework will appease both sides of the political spectrum.

In all honesty, even if this officer gave him a house to live in, that still isn't going to really solve much on a large scale.

Quote
He tried to persuade the man to get something to eat, but he declined and left.
Just saw this from the article in the OP. Interesting.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 08:22:31 PM by Achronos » Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2012, 08:18:09 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.

And then no one will see it.

No thanks. I've gotten enough PMs from people enjoying this discussion.
And then no one will see them.

And I don't like how things play in there. Nothing interesting happens.
like your enigmas being unraveled?

Nope. Sorry Isa, you can argue right here just fine. But you are incapable of it when you cannot build elaborately and finely constructed strawmen of history to fit whatever argument you want to put forth at the moment.
It is only a problem when pathetic and trite projections of capitalism as the great boogey man rear their ugly heads, and can't be chopped off for obscuring the view.

Look at your single contribution:
among my many contributions comes the OP.

Something about living in the third world.

When it comes to actual thought, other than making interesting and entertaining and brilliant but irrelevant collages of websites, your posts are rather weak.
Given the rambling, stream of affected consciousness nature of your posts, physician, perhaps you might heal thyself
http://www.designsojourn.com/how-to-avoid-mental-masturbation/
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: New york
Posts: 3,413


« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2012, 08:22:43 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
Maybe orthonorm can catch the next flight out of Cincy to the Big Apple, find former shoeless man and take him back to his diggs.....problem solved!  Grin

Logged

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2012, 08:23:14 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
Maybe orthonorm can catch the next flight out of Cincy to the Big Apple, find former shoeless man and take him back to his diggs.....problem solved!  Grin


That doesn't solve anything really.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2012, 08:25:13 PM »

Is it wrong that we should scale back our criticism of this man, even just slightly? It's not like this officer has thousands of homes that are unoccupied so he could shelter the homeless. Perhaps instead of just giving the man socks and shoes, he could help assist him in finding living. That's part of protecting and serving, which we don't see too much of these days.

Bringing a homeless man to his house may not be sustainable either. I know for me if I housed a few homeless people myself, I could not sustain them on my salary.

But what I am critical of are those that have made a sensation about this, like ZealousZeal said, he still is homeless, so the problem really isn't fixed here.

Providing housing to all, should not be even considered an entitlement, but a right. If folks want to get better housing than one provided to them, either by government subsidy or whatever, then that should be their choice to work to get such a thing. Which I think in this framework will appease both sides of the political spectrum.

In all honesty, even if this officer gave him a house to live in, that still isn't going to really solve much on a large scale.
The officer, in fact, doesn't even have a house of his own.  He lives with his parents.

Getting into the absurd notion of a house being a right-how we got into this present economic collapse, btw.  Some people never learn-however, would be seen as a discussion of politics by the powers that be here.

Not sure it would solve the problem of this particular homeless man either, though I don't know all the facts on that.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2012, 08:31:38 PM »

The officer, in fact, doesn't even have a house of his own.  He lives with his parents.
Didn't know that, thanks.

Quote
Getting into the absurd notion of a house being a right-how we got into this present economic collapse, btw.  Some people never learn-however, would be seen as a discussion of politics by the powers that be here.
Well just a second here, that was on the banks taking massive risks on those who were subprime. Why banks would loan money to those who didn't have the credit worthiness to pay them back is anyone's guess. Luckily my employer was smart enough to miss out on the bubble burst.

But what I am talking about is completely different. I am not saying owning a house is a right, I said having housing provided is a right (perhaps shelter is a better word here, because when I say housing I loop in condos, apartments, townhomes, etc). Don't you believe that everyone should have some property and make it into however they please? I thought you were a distributist?

Quote
Not sure it would solve the problem of this particular homeless man either, though I don't know all the facts on that.
What is the problem of the homeless man?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 08:32:14 PM by Achronos » Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: New york
Posts: 3,413


« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2012, 08:34:25 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
Maybe orthonorm can catch the next flight out of Cincy to the Big Apple, find former shoeless man and take him back to his diggs.....problem solved!  Grin


That doesn't solve anything really.
Au contraire, it solves everything, didn't you know that?

Because, you see, all these people need are houses! Think houses now people, houses!

All the homeless need are homes and all these little problems with little shoeless, homeless people go away.

Logged

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2012, 08:37:30 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
Maybe orthonorm can catch the next flight out of Cincy to the Big Apple, find former shoeless man and take him back to his diggs.....problem solved!  Grin


That doesn't solve anything really.
Au contraire, it solves everything, didn't you know that?

Because, you see, all these people need are houses! Think houses now people, houses!

All the homeless need are homes and all these little problems with little shoeless, homeless people go away.


Well they would cease to be homeless if they have a home. Of course I would advocate other necessities being a right, such as food and clothing.

I'm not sure why you are building a strawman that having a house solves everything.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2012, 08:38:18 PM »

Is it wrong that we should scale back our criticism of this man, even just slightly?

Who is criticizing the man as such?

Really this is why it is difficult to have such discussions online especially amid a chorus of voice well rehearsed in the unconscious apologetics of the day.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2012, 08:43:06 PM »

Is it wrong that we should scale back our criticism of this man, even just slightly? It's not like this officer has thousands of homes that are unoccupied so he could shelter the homeless. Perhaps instead of just giving the man socks and shoes, he could help assist him in finding living. That's part of protecting and serving, which we don't see too much of these days.

Bringing a homeless man to his house may not be sustainable either. I know for me if I housed a few homeless people myself, I could not sustain them on my salary.

But what I am critical of are those that have made a sensation about this, like ZealousZeal said, he still is homeless, so the problem really isn't fixed here.

Providing housing to all, should not be even considered an entitlement, but a right. If folks want to get better housing than one provided to them, either by government subsidy or whatever, then that should be their choice to work to get such a thing. Which I think in this framework will appease both sides of the political spectrum.

In all honesty, even if this officer gave him a house to live in, that still isn't going to really solve much on a large scale.
The officer, in fact, doesn't even have a house of his own.  He lives with his parents.

Getting into the absurd notion of a house being a right-how we got into this present economic collapse, btw.  Some people never learn-however, would be seen as a discussion of politics by the powers that be here.

Not sure it would solve the problem of this particular homeless man either, though I don't know all the facts on that.

Here is the next step of Isa's gambit to get this put into politics.

Or the symptom of an incredible lack of imagination or understanding of the difference of people who buy "homes" rather than people who need "housing".
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2012, 08:47:59 PM »

Given the rambling, stream of affected consciousness nature of your posts, physician, perhaps you might heal thyself
http://www.designsojourn.com/how-to-avoid-mental-masturbation/

When it comes to matters of such masturbation, pardon me if I don't follow the advice of eunuchs.

And really you need to look up "stream of consciousness", since your usage here shows again, when you are out of your depth, you should stay in the kiddy pool.

So are we going to stop the oneupmanship yet? 5 out of 8 times, you will win at least. I bow to your internetz. A remarkable feat given you being ESL (if that even applies to you anymore).

So are we finished with this and can spare the others here?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 08:48:22 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Charles Martel
Traditional Roman Catholic
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: New york
Posts: 3,413


« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2012, 09:04:32 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
Maybe orthonorm can catch the next flight out of Cincy to the Big Apple, find former shoeless man and take him back to his diggs.....problem solved!  Grin


That doesn't solve anything really.
Au contraire, it solves everything, didn't you know that?

Because, you see, all these people need are houses! Think houses now people, houses!

All the homeless need are homes and all these little problems with little shoeless, homeless people go away.


Well they would cease to be homeless if they have a home. Of course I would advocate other necessities being a right, such as food and clothing.

I'm not sure why you are building a strawman that having a house solves everything.
I'm just being facetious, we all know the answer is not just "giving" people anything. As a matter of fact, it just makes the problem worse. The more you subsidize, the more you get.
Logged

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2012, 09:24:54 PM »



Luckily my employer was smart enough to miss out on the bubble burst.

But what I am talking about is completely different. I am not saying owning a house is a right, I said having housing provided is a right (perhaps shelter is a better word here, because when I say housing I loop in condos, apartments, townhomes, etc). Don't you believe that everyone should have some property and make it into however they please? I thought you were a distributist?
The fact is, human nature what it is, parcel out an equal housing arrangement with all the inhabitants, some will piddle it away in no time, while others will be living in mansions

In a number of redistribution schemes, many large houses of the wealthy were taken, and were just subdivided and parceled out at random to the popular base.  Instead of appreciating what they got for nothing, they acted basically as unevictable tenants, putting nothing into upkeep, and turned once palatial residences into dilapidated hovels.  People vest their resources only in things they have a vested interest in.

It would make sense to encourage a low threshhold that one with limited means can attain to start on the ladder up.  But it would have to involve participants, not recipients, who would have to meat half way to the program.

In the case of the present collapse, it would be wiser to create an option to foreclosure, a short of rent-to-own program where those who cannot pay their mortgage but can pay something in rent are giving the option to do so and have it count to giving them a percentage of the sale price when and if it is sold, or can be rolled over into refinancing in better times.  At present, all we are getting are empty houses that banks cannot rent nor upkeep.  Better to have someone with a vested interest in the upkeep of the property continue to do so.

Not sure it would solve the problem of this particular homeless man either, though I don't know all the facts on that.
What is the problem of the homeless man?
I don't know all the particulars, but he has been identified (though it seems he refuses to come forward to comment), and some facts of his life going back 30 years are known.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 09:32:48 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2012, 09:27:19 PM »

Is it wrong that we should scale back our criticism of this man, even just slightly? It's not like this officer has thousands of homes that are unoccupied so he could shelter the homeless. Perhaps instead of just giving the man socks and shoes, he could help assist him in finding living. That's part of protecting and serving, which we don't see too much of these days.

Bringing a homeless man to his house may not be sustainable either. I know for me if I housed a few homeless people myself, I could not sustain them on my salary.

But what I am critical of are those that have made a sensation about this, like ZealousZeal said, he still is homeless, so the problem really isn't fixed here.

Providing housing to all, should not be even considered an entitlement, but a right. If folks want to get better housing than one provided to them, either by government subsidy or whatever, then that should be their choice to work to get such a thing. Which I think in this framework will appease both sides of the political spectrum.

In all honesty, even if this officer gave him a house to live in, that still isn't going to really solve much on a large scale.
The officer, in fact, doesn't even have a house of his own.  He lives with his parents.

Getting into the absurd notion of a house being a right-how we got into this present economic collapse, btw.  Some people never learn-however, would be seen as a discussion of politics by the powers that be here.

Not sure it would solve the problem of this particular homeless man either, though I don't know all the facts on that.

Here is the next step of Isa's gambit to get this put into politics.

Or the symptom of an incredible lack of imagination or understanding of the difference of people who buy "homes" rather than people who need "housing".
Your lack of understanding the difficulty in maintaining such a difference is showing.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2012, 09:27:54 PM »

Prof, I would edit the first response to my quote just so you don't get on a warned/moderated status. Or just move that bit to Politics. The rest of it let me think about it for while.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2012, 09:31:58 PM »

Given the rambling, stream of affected consciousness nature of your posts, physician, perhaps you might heal thyself
http://www.designsojourn.com/how-to-avoid-mental-masturbation/

When it comes to matters of such masturbation, pardon me if I don't follow the advice of eunuchs.
ah, I see. Girls don't do it.

But, IIRC the accounts of the Forbidden City, eunuchs do.

And really you need to look up "stream of consciousness", since your usage here shows again, when you are out of your depth, you should stay in the kiddy pool.
Sorry, I don't see the profundity in your puddles.

So are we going to stop the oneupmanship yet? 5 out of 8 times, you will win at least. I bow to your internetz. A remarkable feat given you being ESL (if that even applies to you anymore).
So I don't have to play to win?

So are we finished with this and can spare the others here?
Only you can answer that.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2012, 09:33:21 PM »

They were threatened by Democrap interests within the government and Democrap "community organizing" without to do so.

The furthering of the gambit to get this shuttered into politics. So such diatribes can be made and line everyone up in the same old back and forth for which both sides know all so well.

Isa demonstrating he cannot discuss nearly anything without resorting his two or three note polemics which pass as some sorta conventional wisdom.

When it comes to theory, nothing.

When it comes to be able to discuss something in a public, he is incapable, oft even he could possibly do so.

Just want to point this out before this thread gets torn apart.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2012, 09:37:08 PM »

Prof, I would edit the first response to my quote just so you don't get on a warned/moderated status. Or just move that bit to Politics. The rest of it let me think about it for while.

He cannot help himself.

Even when offered an olive branch.

Look at the responses of his in the thread before his absolute decision to have it moved to politics with the tired and old rhetoric of his. "Have you lived in a third world country."

He doesn't even understand what the criticism is.

All he knows how to do is respond as in the above.

EDIT: Oh he decided to move the discussion there, good. Enjoy the cul-de-sac.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 09:38:50 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2012, 09:45:16 PM »

Prof, I would edit the first response to my quote just so you don't get on a warned/moderated status. Or just move that bit to Politics. The rest of it let me think about it for while.

He cannot help himself.

Even when offered an olive branch.
One man's olive branch, another man's thrashing switch.

Look at the responses of his in the thread before his absolute decision to have it moved to politics with the tired and old rhetoric of his. "Have you lived in a third world country."
Not rhetorical at all: have you?

He doesn't even understand what the criticism is.
Not my job to give coherence to your incoherence.  If you have a point or a program, spit it out.

All he knows how to do is respond as in the above.

EDIT: Oh he decided to move the discussion there, good. Enjoy the cul-de-sac.
don't bite your tail.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2012, 09:46:32 PM »

They were threatened by Democrap interests within the government and Democrap "community organizing" without to do so.

The furthering of the gambit to get this shuttered into politics. So such diatribes can be made and line everyone up in the same old back and forth for which both sides know all so well.

Isa demonstrating he cannot discuss nearly anything without resorting his two or three note polemics which pass as some sorta conventional wisdom.

When it comes to theory, nothing.

When it comes to be able to discuss something in a public, he is incapable, oft even he could possibly do so.

Just want to point this out before this thread gets torn apart.
well, I guess Rome, er, Cincinnati has spoken.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Opus118
Site Supporter
Warned
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,703



« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2012, 09:58:46 PM »

I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I saw the text you put in bold the first time. The quoted text followed this statement:
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I am guilty here of requiring you to read between the lines. I am not qualified to take care of the mentally ill or drug addicts. If I were alone, I might try and thereby learn from my experience because I do not believe anyone should be homeless and destitute. The care  of the mentally ill and drug addicts should be dealt with by professionals. This is where government comes into play in my scenario. I can take care of an additional family of four, sometimes more depending on my circumstances. I cannot take in people I do not know how to deal with and imperil people I do know how to deal with.

Is that clearer? I see the government as a pragmatic solution to a serious problem. I do not see it as political.

Quote
I'm as light hearted as need be. Maybe more.

I know you can be. I am not a threat, since I am adverse to debating beyond stating and justifying my emotional take on what is the right thing to do. I also appreciate your minimal use of emoticons. I hate having to stare at them when I post - I am sure they must be satanic or something like that.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2012, 10:18:13 PM »

I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I saw the text you put in bold the first time. The quoted text followed this statement:
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I am guilty here of requiring you to read between the lines. I am not qualified to take care of the mentally ill or drug addicts. If I were alone, I might try and thereby learn from my experience because I do not believe anyone should be homeless and destitute. The care  of the mentally ill and drug addicts should be dealt with by professionals. This is where government comes into play in my scenario. I can take care of an additional family of four, sometimes more depending on my circumstances. I cannot take in people I do not know how to deal with and imperil people I do know how to deal with.

Is that clearer? I see the government as a pragmatic solution to a serious problem. I do not see it as political.
I worked for 5 years with the mentally ill and drug addicts in a professional setting.  I saw how it is not a pragmatic solution, but very much a political one.  Btw, in some ways, the situations of those who imperil others are much easier to "solve."

I'm as light hearted as need be. Maybe more.

I know you can be. I am not a threat, since I am adverse to debating beyond stating and justifying my emotional take on what is the right thing to do. I also appreciate your minimal use of emoticons. I hate having to stare at them when I post - I am sure they must be satanic or something like that.
I actually miss the wide variety of them at CAF.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2012, 11:37:39 PM »

Nice cops apparently do exits  angel

Awesome thing of the cop to do.

Two things which people as a whole have forgotten.  One - cops are people too and usually very nice people, or they wouldn't want to be cops and help others.  Two - helping a person in need is a good thing.  We should do it more often.  This way, it won't be such a shock when it happens.
Logged
Kerdy
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,735


« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2012, 11:53:13 PM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement. 

I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”

It’s impetuous of us to second guess the officer and outrageous to demand all people who suffer in the least bit be coddled until we feel good about it, rather than them feeling good about it.  Or have we forgotten some people do not want our pity or charity?  It you REALLY feel the government should give handouts, consider the officer is an agent of the government and gave a hand out.  Problem with that philosophy is corrected.

Let’s enjoy this for what it was and hope others will follow the example.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2012, 12:39:11 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement. 

I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”
There is evidence of more of the former, but, for sake of argument, let's say the man (his name is Jeffery Hillman btw) is where he is because he spent all his living in drug use.  That is separate from what Officer Larry DiPrimo did.

It’s impetuous of us to second guess the officer and outrageous to demand all people who suffer in the least bit be coddled until we feel good about it, rather than them feeling good about it.  Or have we forgotten some people do not want our pity or charity?  It you REALLY feel the government should give handouts, consider the officer is an agent of the government and gave a hand out.  Problem with that philosophy is corrected.

Let’s enjoy this for what it was and hope others will follow the example.

Amen!
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Opus118
Site Supporter
Warned
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,703



« Reply #76 on: December 02, 2012, 01:17:53 AM »

I worked for 5 years with the mentally ill and drug addicts in a professional setting.  I saw how it is not a pragmatic solution, but very much a political one.  Btw, in some ways, the situations of those who imperil others are much easier to "solve."
This is not the answer that I hoped for. I might be more impressed if I hadn't been caring for a mentally ill son for 24 years.  No doubt you have some justification for your statement. What I do not understand is why you would elevate what appears to me to be exceptions to the rule as THE RULE. We perhaps live in different worlds with different situations.

I'm as light hearted as need be. Maybe more.

I know you can be. I am not a threat, since I am adverse to debating beyond stating and justifying my emotional take on what is the right thing to do. I also appreciate your minimal use of emoticons. I hate having to stare at them when I post - I am sure they must be satanic or something like that.
Quote
I actually miss the wide variety of them at CAF.
Maybe so. Nevertheless, I appreciate the absence of these ambiguous demons from your posts.
Logged
That person
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 1,158


Long live Commie Superman


« Reply #77 on: December 02, 2012, 01:23:33 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement. 

I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”

It’s impetuous of us to second guess the officer and outrageous to demand all people who suffer in the least bit be coddled until we feel good about it, rather than them feeling good about it.  Or have we forgotten some people do not want our pity or charity?  It you REALLY feel the government should give handouts, consider the officer is an agent of the government and gave a hand out.  Problem with that philosophy is corrected.

Let’s enjoy this for what it was and hope others will follow the example.

Please tell me who has attacked him. Because here's what's been said as far as I can tell:
The cop did a pretty decent thing.
This really shouldn't be seen as a huge deal.
In praising the cop's action, we get to feel a sense of participation that we haven't necessarily earned.
There are huge institutional problems that allow America to exist with the extremes of wealth and poverty we see, and focusing on little band-aids like this can distract us from them.

So what is a right exactly?
Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #78 on: December 02, 2012, 02:13:20 AM »

I worked for 5 years with the mentally ill and drug addicts in a professional setting.  I saw how it is not a pragmatic solution, but very much a political one.  Btw, in some ways, the situations of those who imperil others are much easier to "solve."
This is not the answer that I hoped for. I might be more impressed if I hadn't been caring for a mentally ill son for 24 years.  No doubt you have some justification for your statement. What I do not understand is why you would elevate what appears to me to be exceptions to the rule as THE RULE. We perhaps live in different worlds with different situations.
Since I didn't mention any exceptions, perhaps you live in a world with clairvoyance. In which case what appears to you as a rule would be most impressive.

I'm as light hearted as need be. Maybe more.
I know you can be. I am not a threat, since I am adverse to debating beyond stating and justifying my emotional take on what is the right thing to do. I also appreciate your minimal use of emoticons. I hate having to stare at them when I post - I am sure they must be satanic or something like that.
Quote
I actually miss the wide variety of them at CAF.
Maybe so. Nevertheless, I appreciate the absence of these ambiguous demons from your posts.
Well then good.  I hate leaving any ambiguity in my posts.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Opus118
Site Supporter
Warned
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,703



« Reply #79 on: December 02, 2012, 02:37:54 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.

Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for the homeless.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those in need.
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those that need clothing and/or starving.

I do not have a problem with the guaranteed rights part, but I cannot jive the "nor should it be" with Matthew 25:31-46. Am I missing something that clearly counters the Words of Christ?

Quote
When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement. 
This is certainly empty rhetoric with no basis on reality. This is an insult for all of humanity, which is  unjustifiable in my opinion. There is a lot of good in us, despite our failings.

Quote
I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”
I did not see glancing attacks on the officer. I saw glancing attacks on us Orthodox Christians not being Orthodox Christians. There is a distinction here that you missed.

I am personally indebted to the police force here. They have both protected me from harm, prevented my son from doing harm to himself and they have given me good advice which I am following. I am grateful that they do not have your "as it should be" attitude.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #80 on: December 02, 2012, 02:59:29 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement. 

I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”

It’s impetuous of us to second guess the officer and outrageous to demand all people who suffer in the least bit be coddled until we feel good about it, rather than them feeling good about it.  Or have we forgotten some people do not want our pity or charity?  It you REALLY feel the government should give handouts, consider the officer is an agent of the government and gave a hand out.  Problem with that philosophy is corrected.

Let’s enjoy this for what it was and hope others will follow the example.

Please tell me who has attacked him. Because here's what's been said as far as I can tell:
The cop did a pretty decent thing.
And personal charity might matter in some momentary sense of benefiting both parties involved or at least the party "giving" something away as it allows them to return to their life of imbalanced wealth and assuage their conscience for living the way the do along the reality of the other they "helped".
I am mostly with Orthonorm on this one.  It is only news because we have an inflated view of the nobility of a NYC police officer and a condescending and pitying view of the homeless.  No one is criticizing the man who bought the shoes.  It is a nice thing that this person did, but it is not exceptional.   The fact that it is being treated as such is a shame on everyone else.  The NYPD is certainly going to do everything it can to capitalize on the PR though.  Have they gotten him a book deal yet?  Wink

This really shouldn't be seen as a huge deal.
In praising the cop's action, we get to feel a sense of participation that we haven't necessarily earned.
Would we get the same sense of participation that we haven't necessarily earned if the officer shot him instead?  If we were blamed for praising that, would such reproach be unearned?

There are huge institutional problems that allow America to exist with the extremes of wealth and poverty we see, and focusing on little band-aids like this can distract us from them.
You assUme that these alleged huge institutional problems put Mr. Hillmann on the street.  Not to mention positing extremes of wealth and poverty not in evidence.

So Officer DiPrimo should have shot Mr. Hillman, since rubbing salt in the wound will focus us and make you all happy.

So what is a right exactly?
The Biblical term is "eksousia":
exousia: power to act, authority
Original Word: ἐξουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: exousia
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-oo-see'-ah)
Short Definition: power, authority, weight
Definition: (a) power, authority, weight, especially: moral authority, influence, (b) in a quasi-personal sense, derived from later Judaism, of a spiritual power, and hence of an earthly power.
1849 eksousía (from 1537 /ek, "out from," which intensifies 1510 /eimí, "to be, being as a right or privilege") – authority, conferred power; delegated empowerment ("authorization"), operating in a designated jurisdiction.

In the NT, 1849 /eksousía ("delegated power") refers to the authority God gives to His saints – authorizing them to act to the extent they are guided by faith (His revealed word).

STRONGS NT 1849: ἐξουσία

ἐξουσία, ἐξουσίας, ἡ (from ἔξεστι, ἐξόν, which see), from Euripides, Xenophon, Plato down; the Sept. for מֶמְשָׁלָה and Chaldean שָׁלְטָן; power.

1. power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases; leave or permission: 1 Corinthians 9:12, 18; ἔχειν ἐξουσίαν, 2 Thessalonians 3:9; with an infinitive added indicating the thing to be done, John 10:18; 1 Corinthians 9:4; Hebrews 13:10 (WH brackets ἐξουσία); followed by an infinitive with τοῦ, 1 Corinthians 9:6 (L T Tr WH omit τοῦ); with a genitive of the thing or the person with regard to which one has the power to decide: Romans 9:21 (where an explanatory infinitive is added (Buttmann, 260 (224))); 1 Corinthians 9:12; ἐπί τό ξύλον τῆς ζωῆς, permission to use the tree of life, Revelation 22:14 (see ἐπί, C. I. 2 e.); ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν περί τοῦ ἰδίου θελήματος (opposed to ἀνάγκην ἔχειν (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 3 N. 5)), 1 Corinthians 7:37; ἐν τῇ ἰδίᾳ ἐξουσία (appointed, see τίθημι, 1 a. sub at the end) according to his own choice, Acts 1:7; ἐν τῇ σῇ ἐξουσία ὑπῆρχεν, i. e. at thy free disposal, Acts 5:4; used of liberty under the gospel, as opposed to the yoke of the Mosaic law, 1 Corinthians 8:9.

2. "physical and mental power; the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises": Matthew 9:8; Acts 8:19; Revelation 9:3, 19; Revelation 13:2, 4; Revelation 18:1; followed by an infinitive of the thing to be done, Mark 3:15; Luke 12:5; John 1:12; Revelation 9:10; Revelation 11:6; Revelation 13:5; followed by τοῦ with the infinitive Luke 10:19; αὕτη ἐστιν ἡ ἐξουσία τοῦ σκότους, this is the power that darkness exerts, Luke 22:53; ποιεῖν ἐξουσίαν to exert power, give exhibitions of power, Revelation 13:12; ἐν ἐξουσία εἶναι, to be possessed of power and influence, Luke 4:32; also ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν (both expressions refer to the ability and weight which Jesus exhibited in his teaching) Matthew 7:29; (Mark 1:22); κατ' ἐξουσίαν powerfully, Mark 1:27; also ἐν ἐξουσία, Luke 4:36.

3. the power of authority (influence) and of right: Matthew 21:23; Mark 11:28; Luke 20:2; spoken of the authority of an apostle, 2 Corinthians 10:8; 2 Corinthians 13:10; of the divine authority granted to Jesus as Messiah, with the infinitive of the thing to be done, Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:10; Luke 5:24; John 5:27; ἐν ποίᾳ ἐξουσία; clothed in what authority (i. e. thine own or God's?), Matthew 21:23, 24, 27; Mark 11:28, 29, 33; Luke 20:2, 8; delegated authority (German Vollmacht, authorization): παρά τίνος, with the genitive of the person by whom the authority is given, or received, Acts 9:14; Acts 26:10, 12 (R G).

4. the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed (generally translated authority));

a. universally: Matthew 28:18; Jude 1:25; Revelation 12:10; Revelation 17:13; λαμβάνειν, ἐξουσίαν ὡς βασιλεύς, Revelation 17:12; εἰμί ὑπό ἐξουσίαν, I am under authority, Matthew 8:9; with τασσόμενος added, (Matthew 8:9 L WH brackets); Luke 7:8; ἐξουσία τίνος, the genitive of the object, authority (to be exercised) over, as τῶν πνευμάτων τῶν ἀκαθάρτων, Mark 6:7; with ὥστε ἐκβάλλειν αὐτά added, Matthew 10:1; ἐξουσίαν πάσης σαρκός, authority over all mankind, John 17:2 (πάσης σαρκός κυρειαν, Bel and the Dragon, verse 5); (the genitive of the subject, τοῦ Σατανᾶ, Acts 26:18); ἐπί τινα, power over one, so as to be able to subdue, drive out, destroy, Revelation 6:8; ἐπί τά δαιμόνια, Luke 9:1; or to hold submissive to one's will, Revelation 13:7; ἐπί τάς πληγάς, the power to inflict plagues and to put an end to them, Revelation 16:9; ἐπί τῶν ἐθνῶν, over the heathen nations, Revelation 2:26; ἐπί τίνος, to destroy one, Revelation 20:6; ἔχειν ἐξουσίαν ἐπί τοῦ πυρός, to preside, have control, over fire, to hold it subject to his will, Revelation 14:18; ἐπί τῶν ὑδάτων, Revelation 11:6; ἐπάνω τίνος ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν, to be ruler over a thing, Luke 19:17.

b. specifically, α. of the power of judicial decision; ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν with an infinitive of the thing decided: σταυρῶσαι and ἀπολῦσαι τινα, John 19:10; followed by κατά τίνος, the power of deciding against one, John 19:11; παραδοῦναι τινα ... τῇ ἐξουσία τοῦ ἡγεμόνος, Luke 20:20. β. of authority to manage domestic affairs: Mark 13:34.

c. metonymically, α. a thing subject to authority or rule: Luke 4:6; jurisdiction: ἐκ τῆς ἐξουσίας ἡδωρου ἐστιν, Luke 23:7 (1 Macc. 6:11 (cf. Psalm 113:2 (); Isaiah 39:2)). β. one who possesses authority; (cf. the Latin use ofhonestates,dignitates,auctoritates (so the English authorities, dignities, etc.) in reference to persons); αα. a ruler, human magistrate (Dionysius Halicarnassus 8, 44; 11, 32): Romans 13:1-3; plural: Luke 12:11; Romans 13:1; Titus 3:1. ββ. the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates; used in the plural of a certain class of angels (see ἀρχή, δύναμις, θρόνος, κυριότης): Colossians 1:16; 1 Peter 3:22 (cf. Fritzsche on Romans, vol. ii., p. 226f; (Lightfoot on Colossians, the passage cited)); with ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις added, Ephesians 3:10; πᾶσα ἐξουσία, 1 Corinthians 15:24; Ephesians 1:21; Colossians 2:10; used also of demons: in the plural, Ephesians 6:12; Colossians 2:15; collectively (cf. Lob. ad Phryn., p. 469), ἡ ἐξουσία τοῦ ἀέρος (see ἀήρ), Ephesians 2:2; τοῦ σκότους, Colossians 1:13 (others refer this to 4 a. (or c. α.) above (cf. Luke 22:53 in 2), and regard σκότος as personified; see σκότος, b.).

d. a sign of the husband's authority over his wife, i. e. the veil with which propriety required a woman to cover herself, 1 Corinthians 11:10 (as βασιλεία is used by Diodorus 1, 47 for the sign of regal power, i. e. a crown). (Synonym: see δύναμις, at the end. On the infinitive after ἐξουσία, and ἐξουσία ἔχειν cf. Buttmann, 260 (223f).)

Word Origin
from exesti
Definition
power to act, authority
NASB Translation
authorities (7), authority (65), charge (1), control (1), domain (2), dominion (1), jurisdiction (1), liberty (1), power (11), powers (1), right (11).
http://biblesuite.com/greek/1849.htm
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Opus118
Site Supporter
Warned
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,703



« Reply #81 on: December 02, 2012, 03:07:27 AM »

I worked for 5 years with the mentally ill and drug addicts in a professional setting.  I saw how it is not a pragmatic solution, but very much a political one.  Btw, in some ways, the situations of those who imperil others are much easier to "solve."
This is not the answer that I hoped for. I might be more impressed if I hadn't been caring for a mentally ill son for 24 years.  No doubt you have some justification for your statement. What I do not understand is why you would elevate what appears to me to be exceptions to the rule as THE RULE. We perhaps live in different worlds with different situations.
Since I didn't mention any exceptions, perhaps you live in a world with clairvoyance. In which case what appears to you as a rule would be most impressive.

When you force me to present personal anecdotal evidence to counter your presumably impersonal anecdotal evidence, we are both open to the criticism of presenting an exception to the rule. I introduced the notion of exception because it is relevant.  I am not clairvoyant. I am unfortunately one of those people with a frame of mind that personally seems logical, but may be pedantic. Only time will tell. I make no guarantees as to whether I am right or wrong, but I do have a lot of experience in my life to guide my opinion. I hope this guides you as to where I am coming from, so to speak.

Logged
Opus118
Site Supporter
Warned
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,703



« Reply #82 on: December 02, 2012, 03:22:34 AM »

I actually miss the wide variety of them at CAF.

ps- how you cannot find those yellow circle things scary is beyond me.
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #83 on: December 02, 2012, 03:28:04 AM »

Gee, Opus...what did emoticons do to you?
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #84 on: December 02, 2012, 03:33:08 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for the homeless.
Meaning what?
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those in need.
Meaning what?
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those that need clothing and/or starving.
Meaning what?
I do not have a problem with the guaranteed rights part, but I cannot jive the "nor should it be" with Matthew 25:31-46. Am I missing something that clearly counters the Words of Christ?
"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." II Thessalonians 3:10.

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement.  
This is certainly empty rhetoric with no basis on reality.

The dystopia resulting from every utopian scheme shows otherwise.

The War on Poverty has spent trillions over half a century for the poverty rate to remain the same. In fact, the poverty rate had fallen 5% over the 5 years, and falling, before the war was declared, while the decline in benefits show no real correlation over time with the poverty rate.

Of course, what is needed to answer your question is study focused on those who rose out of poverty (and those who fell into it) and what, if any, benefits providing what they wanted or needed played a role in their rise.  And one on what, if any, benefits providing what is wanted or needed sustain a permanent underclass.

This is an insult for all of humanity, which is  unjustifiable in my opinion. There is a lot of good in us, despite our failings.
You assUme everyone is alike.  Such is not the case.
I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”
I did not see glancing attacks on the officer. I saw glancing attacks on us Orthodox Christians not being Orthodox Christians. There is a distinction here that you missed.
I don't recall "late capitalism" nor "petite bourgeoisie" in the confession of Orthodoxy. I must have missed that.

I am personally indebted to the police force here. They have both protected me from harm, prevented my son from doing harm to himself and they have given me good advice which I am following. I am grateful that they do not have your "as it should be" attitude.
There is a distinction here that you missed.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:42:43 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #85 on: December 02, 2012, 03:36:08 AM »

I actually miss the wide variety of them at CAF.

ps- how you cannot find those yellow circle things scary is beyond me.
My sister used to have this on her refrigerator

and it always made me chucke.  Still does.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2012, 03:41:28 AM »

I worked for 5 years with the mentally ill and drug addicts in a professional setting.  I saw how it is not a pragmatic solution, but very much a political one.  Btw, in some ways, the situations of those who imperil others are much easier to "solve."
This is not the answer that I hoped for. I might be more impressed if I hadn't been caring for a mentally ill son for 24 years.  No doubt you have some justification for your statement. What I do not understand is why you would elevate what appears to me to be exceptions to the rule as THE RULE. We perhaps live in different worlds with different situations.
Since I didn't mention any exceptions, perhaps you live in a world with clairvoyance. In which case what appears to you as a rule would be most impressive.

When you force me to present personal anecdotal evidence to counter your presumably impersonal anecdotal evidence, we are both open to the criticism of presenting an exception to the rule.

No, we are not. I presented no personal anecdotal evidence.  My impersonal "anecdotal evidence" just reflects the stats-for one, I used to collect them as part of my job.

I introduced the notion of exception because it is relevant.
Only if one wants to make it the rule.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,145


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #87 on: December 02, 2012, 04:15:49 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.
1. I think the discussion you started with this post is a very important, thought provoking discussion, for which I thank you immensely.
2. I do not believe that this discussion belongs in Politics, regardless of what Isa says.
3. I do believe, however, that you should not have started this debate on a Christian News thread, since the Christian News board is intended solely for the reporting of news. This board is not a place for debate or polemics such as the discussion you started. You could have started a separate thread on the Religious Topics board, one of the most viewed sections of this forum, to discuss the angle you wish to discuss on this story.
Logged
Opus118
Site Supporter
Warned
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,703



« Reply #88 on: December 02, 2012, 05:07:42 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for the homeless.
Quote
Meaning what?
meaning: we should care for the homeless.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those in need.
Quote
Meaning what?
meaning: we should care for those in need
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those that need clothing and/or starving.
Quote
Meaning what?
meaning: we should make it a priority to care for those that need clothing and/or are starving.

I do not have a problem with the guaranteed rights part, but I cannot jive the "nor should it be" with Matthew 25:31-46. Am I missing something that clearly counters the Words of Christ?
Quote
"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." II Thessalonians 3:10.
This is a fail in my mind. I am not talking about sloth, I am talking about those in need. And most are not slothful. Am I incorrect on this? Does Paul trump the Gospel?

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement.  
This is certainly empty rhetoric with no basis on reality.

Quote
The dystopia resulting from every utopian scheme shows otherwise.
I have not given up on utopian schemes, The best of them in the US were foiled by greed.
Quote
The War on Poverty has spent trillions over half a century for the poverty rate to remain the same. In fact, the poverty rate had fallen 5% over the 5 years, and falling, before the war was declared, while the decline in benefits show no real correlation over time with the poverty rate.
My recollection of this is that the war on poverty was instituted to deal with the situation of Appalachia at the time (I vaguely remember the news reports prior to the war on poverty). Am I wrong about this and has nothing improved? If we are talking about trillions over half a century, how many people are we talking about? In the same studies you haven't explicitly cited, what would have been the outcome if we did not help?
Quote
Of course, what is needed to answer your question is study focused on those who rose out of poverty (and those who fell into it) and what, if any, benefits providing what they wanted or needed played a role in their rise.  And one on what, if any, benefits providing what is wanted or needed sustain a permanent underclass.
I did not ask this question, but it is worthwhile. I would additionally include the opportunity for a living wage in this analysis

This is an insult for all of humanity, which is  unjustifiable in my opinion. There is a lot of good in us, despite our failings.
Quote
You assUme everyone is alike.  Such is not the case.
Yes I do, including you and me.
I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”
I did not see glancing attacks on the officer. I saw glancing attacks on us Orthodox Christians not being Orthodox Christians. There is a distinction here that you missed.

Quote
I don't recall "late capitalism" nor "petite bourgeoisie" in the confession of Orthodoxy. I must have missed that.
I have know idea where this is coming from and with the exception of the term "capitalism" and "Orthodoxy", I am at a loss as to what you are referring to.
Logged
Opus118
Site Supporter
Warned
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,703



« Reply #89 on: December 02, 2012, 05:22:26 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.
1. I think the discussion you started with this post is a very important, thought provoking discussion, for which I thank you immensely.
2. I do not believe that this discussion belongs in Politics, regardless of what Isa says.
3. I do believe, however, that you should not have started this debate on a Christian News thread, since the Christian News board is intended solely for the reporting of news. This board is not a place for debate or polemics such as the discussion you started. You could have started a separate thread on the Religious Topics board, one of the most viewed sections of this forum, to discuss the angle you wish to discuss on this story.

Just to note. If I had to read every post that was posted while I was writing, which usually takes me hours (unfortunately), I would not be able to participate in this forum. This is just to signify that I knew there was a new post that I necessarily ignored. And yes, one sentence per hour is not unusual for me.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.228 seconds with 73 queries.