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Author Topic: Just a random act of kindness  (Read 4135 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: November 30, 2012, 11:40:35 AM »


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5irKI-RDlKQUI00O0TVR-KOY-KJdA?docId=34fb43ea5aa04610881aaf5d606acf0d
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 03:46:43 PM »

When I was watching this on the news, I swear I saw Christ in both the police officer and the homeless man. 

What a blessed moment.
How beautiful. 

Glory to God in the Highest and Peace and Good Will to all men.
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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 03:50:51 PM »

God bless him. Wow, this is so amazing  Cry
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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2012, 05:34:39 PM »



What he did is great....and I can only wish we saw more of this.

I can't help but ponder the enormous reaction it has gotten all over the Web and other media sources.

This was one man, helping one other man.

The affect it has had on people actually says a lot about our current society.

Being "nice" to someone really shouldn't be such a novelty.

Imagine, if we were all so helpful and selfless - all the time, this would just be another boring blip on the screen.

I wish it were so.

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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2012, 05:40:12 PM »



What he did is great....and I can only wish we saw more of this.

I can't help but ponder the enormous reaction it has gotten all over the Web and other media sources.

This was one man, helping one other man.

The affect it has had on people actually says a lot about our current society.

Being "nice" to someone really shouldn't be such a novelty
.

Imagine, if we were all so helpful and selfless - all the time, this would just be another boring blip on the screen.

I wish it were so.



**like**
(bold and blue, mine)
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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2012, 05:51:00 PM »



What he did is great....and I can only wish we saw more of this.

I can't help but ponder the enormous reaction it has gotten all over the Web and other media sources.

This was one man, helping one other man.

The affect it has had on people actually says a lot about our current society.

Being "nice" to someone really shouldn't be such a novelty.

Imagine, if we were all so helpful and selfless - all the time, this would just be another boring blip on the screen.

I wish it were so.



Same here.
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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 05:56:08 PM »

Nice cops apparently do exits  angel

Awesome thing of the cop to do.
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« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2012, 09:22:38 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 09:23:42 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2012, 02:33:20 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.
Ah, yes, well we all can't fix the whole world in one fell swoop.

Nice touch that the officer stooped down to put the socks and boots on the man for him.

Btw, you might have noticed, they are rather short of homes in NYC at the moment.
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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2012, 02:46:55 AM »

I don't know why there always has to be an argument in every thread...

Anyway, this is a wonderful thing. Like Liza, I wish it weren't newsworthy, but maybe by being newsworthy it will eventually become less so, in a good way. If even 10% of the people who see the story are inspired to act similarly, then the world will be that much better. And really, looked at from another angle, I'd much rather have stories like this one than to be insulted with a never-ending parade of garbage "news" about what army generals and tabloid celebrities have been doing with their genitalia lately.
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2012, 02:52:24 AM »

I don't know why there always has to be an argument in every thread...

Anyway, this is a wonderful thing. Like Liza, I wish it weren't newsworthy, but maybe by being newsworthy it will eventually become less so, in a good way. If even 10% of the people who see the story are inspired to act similarly, then the world will be that much better. And really, looked at from another angle, I'd much rather have stories like this one than to be insulted with a never-ending parade of garbage "news" about what army generals and tabloid celebrities have been doing with their genitalia lately.
Indeed!

There's a goofy insurance comercial where someone does the right thing, someone notices it, and does another right thing and so on.  Hopefully this is real life.

An important element of this story is that the officer didn't expect any of this.  Had the tourist not happened to have overheard the conversation and decided to snap the phone photo, it would have been known only to God.  And the homeless man.

Liza is correct as always on these things.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 02:53:00 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2012, 03:00:05 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.

Well he's not entitled to a home, but hey here are some socks and boots just incase those feet get frozen! Have a nice day sir.
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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 10:11:04 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.

Settle down Scrooge. Smiley It was a charitable and honorable thing to do. I don't know where I'd be if not for seemingly small gifts from others, but there's a good chance I wouldn't be posting on this forum right now.
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2012, 10:22:52 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.
Why don't you go give a homeless man your HOME.

Feel free to pontificate from hypocritical perch now.
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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 10:39:10 AM »

"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'"- Matthew 25:40
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« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 11:07:49 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.
Ah, yes, well we all can't fix the whole world in one fell swoop.

Nice touch that the officer stooped down to put the socks and boots on the man for him.

Btw, you might have noticed, they are rather short of homes in NYC at the moment.

Not really. There is always the floor. Couch etc.

Can see where you come from on this whole "personal charity" issue.
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2012, 11:08:27 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.
Why don't you go give a homeless man your HOME.

Feel free to pontificate from hypocritical perch now.

I do often.

Continue.

EDIT: And what I do is not relevant to this. It has to do with the ideological structure of "charity". Even my sharing my very small apartment with others is nothing. Personal charity gets us nowhere. And when doing something as small as handing out shoes is worldwide news, in a certain sense I guess it might good news as the petite bourgeoisie notion of helping the less fortunate has to come nearly to its end and perhaps we can move on to real solutions.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 11:12:01 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2012, 11:15:27 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.

Settle down Scrooge. Smiley It was a charitable and honorable thing to do. I don't know where I'd be if not for seemingly small gifts from others, but there's a good chance I wouldn't be posting on this forum right now.

Perhaps, but you absolutely wouldn't be here without huge gifts from others.

The problem here isn't whether giving some guy without shoes is right or wrong (it really isn't a moral category actually) but whether we should be critical of such moments when they are blown out of proportion to their ability to change and how do such overreactions allow ideology to maintain its grip on us.
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2012, 11:21:58 AM »

I don't have a photos of such moments, but I live in one more the most depressed parts of the city and the poor do this for each other every day. How else would they get by?

And yes on the weekends and holidays the extremely entitled come down during daylight in droves to "help" out.

And yet the fundamental nature and degree of poverty and suffering hasn't changed much.

So maybe this photo warms the cockles of the hearts of those who live in bubbles where they either never see homeless people, are afraid to help a homeless person (take them into their home), and this gives them "hope" and they can act via support of this officer.

Without really questioning the sanity of a system to where anyone can be without shoes next to a shoe store in first the place.

Carry on.

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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2012, 11:28:53 AM »

I don't know why there always has to be an argument in every thread...

Anyway, this is a wonderful thing. Like Liza, I wish it weren't newsworthy, but maybe by being newsworthy it will eventually become less so, in a good way. If even 10% of the people who see the story are inspired to act similarly, then the world will be that much better. And really, looked at from another angle, I'd much rather have stories like this one than to be insulted with a never-ending parade of garbage "news" about what army generals and tabloid celebrities have been doing with their genitalia lately.
Indeed!

There's a goofy insurance comercial where someone does the right thing, someone notices it, and does another right thing and so on.  Hopefully this is real life.

It's not and you know it. This is what ideology is here people.

It is a form of denial.

And yet the unfound reality and "hope" is what so many cling to especially in this season when a lot of fund will go into the purchases the more superfluous of things while others barely get in the wealthiest and most superlative in all things country on the planet.

Now people cannot shoot whatever criticism against me as they wish.

And to the degree it is true that I don't give everything away, proves my point.

No one person can change this.

And goodness isn't catching.

So don't let such moments as noted in this thread do what they tend to: pull one into a of hope and trust in your fellow man and perhaps yourself.





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« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2012, 11:33:53 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.
Why don't you go give a homeless man your HOME.

Feel free to pontificate from hypocritical perch now.

I do often.

Continue.

EDIT: And what I do is not relevant to this. It has to do with the ideological structure of "charity". Even my sharing my very small apartment with others is nothing. Personal charity gets us nowhere. And when doing something as small as handing out shoes is worldwide news, in a certain sense I guess it might good news as the petite bourgeoisie notion of helping the less fortunate has to come nearly to its end and perhaps we can move on to real solutions.
I'm sure you do. Roll Eyes

And now personal charity is "nothing".

You can't even acknowledge this simple act of kindness without disparaging it in some way reveals the heart of a true misanthrope.
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« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2012, 11:51:21 AM »

I don't know why there always has to be an argument in every thread...

Anyway, this is a wonderful thing. Like Liza, I wish it weren't newsworthy, but maybe by being newsworthy it will eventually become less so, in a good way. If even 10% of the people who see the story are inspired to act similarly, then the world will be that much better. And really, looked at from another angle, I'd much rather have stories like this one than to be insulted with a never-ending parade of garbage "news" about what army generals and tabloid celebrities have been doing with their genitalia lately.
Indeed!

There's a goofy insurance comercial where someone does the right thing, someone notices it, and does another right thing and so on.  Hopefully this is real life.

It's not and you know it. This is what ideology is here people.

It is a form of denial.

And yet the unfound reality and "hope" is what so many cling to especially in this season when a lot of fund will go into the purchases the more superfluous of things while others barely get in the wealthiest and most superlative in all things country on the planet.

Now people cannot shoot whatever criticism against me as they wish.

And to the degree it is true that I don't give everything away, proves my point.

No one person can change this.

And goodness isn't catching.

So don't let such moments as noted in this thread do what they tend to: pull one into a of hope and trust in your fellow man and perhaps yourself.

I don't have a photos of such moments, but I live in one more the most depressed parts of the city and the poor do this for each other every day. How else would they get by?

And yes on the weekends and holidays the extremely entitled come down during daylight in droves to "help" out.

And yet the fundamental nature and degree of poverty and suffering hasn't changed much.

So maybe this photo warms the cockles of the hearts of those who live in bubbles where they either never see homeless people, are afraid to help a homeless person (take them into their home), and this gives them "hope" and they can act via support of this officer.

Without really questioning the sanity of a system to where anyone can be without shoes next to a shoe store in first the place.

Carry on.


Why don't you open a thread in politics, where proper responses to your musings can be given, and we carry on?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 11:55:23 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2012, 11:56:53 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.
Why don't you go give a homeless man your HOME.

Feel free to pontificate from hypocritical perch now.

I do often.

Continue.

EDIT: And what I do is not relevant to this. It has to do with the ideological structure of "charity". Even my sharing my very small apartment with others is nothing. Personal charity gets us nowhere. And when doing something as small as handing out shoes is worldwide news, in a certain sense I guess it might good news as the petite bourgeoisie notion of helping the less fortunate has to come nearly to its end and perhaps we can move on to real solutions.
I'm sure you do. Roll Eyes

And now personal charity is "nothing".

You can't even acknowledge this simple act of kindness without disparaging it in some way reveals the heart of a true misanthrope.

I do.

Not fun when your assumptions are wrong.

But it doesn't matter.

And personal charity might matter in some momentary sense of benefiting both parties involved or at least the party "giving" something away as it allows them to return to their life of imbalanced wealth and assuage their conscience for living the way the do along the reality of the other they "helped".

Some people stop "doing charity" because the recipient wasn't "grateful".

The point here is, if personal charity and random acts of kindness worked, we would no longer need them by now.

And overly celebrating such moments (which I can tell from this thread must be INFREQUENT in your lives) do nothing other than make those with privilege feel good. (The situation is worse here, I didn't know this was some "viral" thing when I read here till I went out last for a little bit and everyone was talking about it.) Such "random acts" happen all the time (usually one poor person giving to another) and such moments serve as a fetishing moments when not only will where some people will not act out of principle or lack of ability, but because they have FELT they already have acted by having celebrated someone else's act.

This is how ideology and fetishism works. In this case, you could revisit the moment and feel good again and again I suppose. (With eventual diminishing returns.)

I've been on pretty much all ends of this charity business.

And the most helpful and effective acts of "charity" are large institutional acts of justice.

It is not charity. It is what is right.

The RCC is the second best organization in America in doing such acts. Really it is quite compelling what they do without all the "golly shucks" sentimentality.

And the American Government is the most effective agent of justice, again without much affective attachement.

The problem with the poor receiving justice, isn't that we don't love them enough, it is that we love them too much. (Love in the sappy pedestrian sense here.)

And the best manner for the such an inaffectual (if you will) and effective system to arise is through bureaucracy.

"Kindess" is lovely fleeting feeling people like to have once in a while. You can still have that. Let the technocrats take care of the heavy lifting though that really changes people's lives and often in fact saves them.

They will still be around for you to give their kids toys at Christmas or whatever makes people feel good.

Housing the poor ain't no feel good endeavor. Really love usually doesn't feel good, at least for those of us this side of sainthood.

$50 for some shoes. Easy.
Living with a mentally ill person and trying to help them get their life on track in American. Difficult to nearly impossible.

So each one of us can't do it, but we can create uncaring systems which do a better job at caring.
    
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« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2012, 12:00:03 PM »

I don't know why there always has to be an argument in every thread...

Anyway, this is a wonderful thing. Like Liza, I wish it weren't newsworthy, but maybe by being newsworthy it will eventually become less so, in a good way. If even 10% of the people who see the story are inspired to act similarly, then the world will be that much better. And really, looked at from another angle, I'd much rather have stories like this one than to be insulted with a never-ending parade of garbage "news" about what army generals and tabloid celebrities have been doing with their genitalia lately.
Indeed!

There's a goofy insurance comercial where someone does the right thing, someone notices it, and does another right thing and so on.  Hopefully this is real life.

It's not and you know it. This is what ideology is here people.

It is a form of denial.

And yet the unfound reality and "hope" is what so many cling to especially in this season when a lot of fund will go into the purchases the more superfluous of things while others barely get in the wealthiest and most superlative in all things country on the planet.

Now people cannot shoot whatever criticism against me as they wish.

And to the degree it is true that I don't give everything away, proves my point.

No one person can change this.

And goodness isn't catching.

So don't let such moments as noted in this thread do what they tend to: pull one into a of hope and trust in your fellow man and perhaps yourself.

I don't have a photos of such moments, but I live in one more the most depressed parts of the city and the poor do this for each other every day. How else would they get by?

And yes on the weekends and holidays the extremely entitled come down during daylight in droves to "help" out.

And yet the fundamental nature and degree of poverty and suffering hasn't changed much.

So maybe this photo warms the cockles of the hearts of those who live in bubbles where they either never see homeless people, are afraid to help a homeless person (take them into their home), and this gives them "hope" and they can act via support of this officer.

Without really questioning the sanity of a system to where anyone can be without shoes next to a shoe store in first the place.

Carry on.


Why don't you open a thread in politics, where proper responses to your musings can be given, and we carry on?

Because this discussion is just fine where it is.

You method requires the need for attack and secrecy.

I can merely state my opinion with reason and show facts: the poor aren't still with us. They are away from us, usually as far as we can afford to live.

And really, not many read the private forums. And those who do ain't changing their minds on anything.

So go talk to yourself in a corner cause that is effective outcome of your enormous posts in the private section.
 Orthonorm, you are being warned for 14 days for posting polemical comments in a board that is meant for discussion only. 

This kind of discussion should not be taking place in Christian News.  Please refrain from posting polemically in the General Fora. 

-Serb1389. General Fora Moderator. 
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« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2012, 12:00:29 PM »

I am mostly with Orthonorm on this one.  It is only news because we have an inflated view of the nobility of a NYC police officer and a condescending and pitying view of the homeless.  No one is criticizing the man who bought the shoes.  It is a nice thing that this person did, but it is not exceptional.   The fact that it is being treated as such is a shame on everyone else.  The NYPD is certainly going to do everything it can to capitalize on the PR though.  Have they gotten him a book deal yet?  Wink
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« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2012, 12:07:42 PM »

I don't know why there always has to be an argument in every thread...

Anyway, this is a wonderful thing. Like Liza, I wish it weren't newsworthy, but maybe by being newsworthy it will eventually become less so, in a good way. If even 10% of the people who see the story are inspired to act similarly, then the world will be that much better. And really, looked at from another angle, I'd much rather have stories like this one than to be insulted with a never-ending parade of garbage "news" about what army generals and tabloid celebrities have been doing with their genitalia lately.
Indeed!

There's a goofy insurance comercial where someone does the right thing, someone notices it, and does another right thing and so on.  Hopefully this is real life.

It's not and you know it. This is what ideology is here people.

It is a form of denial.

And yet the unfound reality and "hope" is what so many cling to especially in this season when a lot of fund will go into the purchases the more superfluous of things while others barely get in the wealthiest and most superlative in all things country on the planet.

Now people cannot shoot whatever criticism against me as they wish.

And to the degree it is true that I don't give everything away, proves my point.

No one person can change this.

And goodness isn't catching.

So don't let such moments as noted in this thread do what they tend to: pull one into a of hope and trust in your fellow man and perhaps yourself.

I don't have a photos of such moments, but I live in one more the most depressed parts of the city and the poor do this for each other every day. How else would they get by?

And yes on the weekends and holidays the extremely entitled come down during daylight in droves to "help" out.

And yet the fundamental nature and degree of poverty and suffering hasn't changed much.

So maybe this photo warms the cockles of the hearts of those who live in bubbles where they either never see homeless people, are afraid to help a homeless person (take them into their home), and this gives them "hope" and they can act via support of this officer.

Without really questioning the sanity of a system to where anyone can be without shoes next to a shoe store in first the place.

Carry on.


Why don't you open a thread in politics, where proper responses to your musings can be given, and we carry on?

Because this discussion is just fine where it is.

You method requires the need for attack and secrecy.

I can merely state my opinion with reason and show facts: the poor aren't still with us. They are away from us, usually as far as we can afford to live.

And really, not many read the private forums. And those who do ain't changing their minds on anything.

So go talk to yourself in a corner cause that is effective outcome of your enormous posts in the private section.
Ah, I see.  You prefer to criticize those who do, and take pock shots at the "system," informing us all of the greatness of your self-righteousness.

Continue with your slumming, but spare us your slamming.
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« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2012, 12:09:43 PM »

I am mostly with Orthonorm on this one.  It is only news because we have an inflated view of the nobility of a NYC police officer and a condescending and pitying view of the homeless.  No one is criticizing the man who bought the shoes.  It is a nice thing that this person did, but it is not exceptional.   The fact that it is being treated as such is a shame on everyone else.  The NYPD is certainly going to do everything it can to capitalize on the PR though.  Have they gotten him a book deal yet?  Wink
No, it seems that they had to practically drag him out into the public.

I am waiting for a follow up on the homeless guy.
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« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2012, 12:16:10 PM »

I am mostly with Orthonorm on this one.  It is only news because we have an inflated view of the nobility of a NYC police officer and a condescending and pitying view of the homeless.  No one is criticizing the man who bought the shoes.  It is a nice thing that this person did, but it is not exceptional.   The fact that it is being treated as such is a shame on everyone else.  The NYPD is certainly going to do everything it can to capitalize on the PR though.  Have they gotten him a book deal yet?  Wink

Just so I am clear here.

I ain't got nothing against cops. I live somewhere and find myself in circles where they are considered "bad".

I don't. I can't imagine having their job (well I can but you know what I mean).

Just this week there was a herion buy by the vice force which went bad and one drug dealer was shot, one was wounded. And people on this side of the world in Cincinnati are criticizing the police for it.

I wouldn't.

I question their tactic of killing or even spending any time on trying to stop a "hand to hand to sale of herion".

But I have no illusions of what it is like to be in that situation when it goes bad.

Been there.

And I've both had guns pulled on me and been shot at.

And I know the SOP is to unload your firearm once things go south.

I am sure the guy without shoes has a slightly better life for it.

And maybe the PR for the NYPD will be good to alleviate often ineffective tensions between cops and places where the homeless exist.

My point is that Christian love isn't kindness.

It is justice.

God's love isn't "kindness" it is just. And we are called to act in the same manner.

This means doing what is just in whatever way we can. For Christians in late-capitalism this isn't charitable donations and the like.

The imbalance in wealth and income in this country is severe. Random acts of kindness are just justice. The kindness.

We steady and predictable acts of justice and ought not get too caught up in illusion of hope and change moments of kindness offer.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 12:16:31 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2012, 12:21:21 PM »

I am mostly with Orthonorm on this one.  It is only news because we have an inflated view of the nobility of a NYC police officer and a condescending and pitying view of the homeless.  No one is criticizing the man who bought the shoes.  It is a nice thing that this person did, but it is not exceptional.   The fact that it is being treated as such is a shame on everyone else.  The NYPD is certainly going to do everything it can to capitalize on the PR though.  Have they gotten him a book deal yet?  Wink
No, it seems that they had to practically drag him out into the public.

I am waiting for a follow up on the homeless guy.

Yeah, I am for once not that cynical. Cause I see this stuff everyday or at least every three days.

If the homeless guy ends up a millionaire or something, this still means nothing.

This shouldn't be a matter of political discussion or national (now worldwide?) pride or interest.

What should be is eliminating circumstances which make such acts so "remarkable" in the first place.

I have a busy day and I still feel like garbage. I am hoping a doctor find some kindness in their heart, yet again this week and I will be benefiting from the kindness of another this week as well in terms of making my ability to get from one place to another easier.

And I am grateful.

But I am not confused. Such behaviors don't do much to stop the deep structural issues which allow such circumstances to happen in the first place.

Christian justice would do a lot to do so.

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« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2012, 12:23:40 PM »

I don't know why there always has to be an argument in every thread...

Anyway, this is a wonderful thing. Like Liza, I wish it weren't newsworthy, but maybe by being newsworthy it will eventually become less so, in a good way. If even 10% of the people who see the story are inspired to act similarly, then the world will be that much better. And really, looked at from another angle, I'd much rather have stories like this one than to be insulted with a never-ending parade of garbage "news" about what army generals and tabloid celebrities have been doing with their genitalia lately.
Indeed!

There's a goofy insurance comercial where someone does the right thing, someone notices it, and does another right thing and so on.  Hopefully this is real life.

It's not and you know it. This is what ideology is here people.

It is a form of denial.

And yet the unfound reality and "hope" is what so many cling to especially in this season when a lot of fund will go into the purchases the more superfluous of things while others barely get in the wealthiest and most superlative in all things country on the planet.

Now people cannot shoot whatever criticism against me as they wish.

And to the degree it is true that I don't give everything away, proves my point.

No one person can change this.

And goodness isn't catching.

So don't let such moments as noted in this thread do what they tend to: pull one into a of hope and trust in your fellow man and perhaps yourself.

I don't have a photos of such moments, but I live in one more the most depressed parts of the city and the poor do this for each other every day. How else would they get by?

And yes on the weekends and holidays the extremely entitled come down during daylight in droves to "help" out.

And yet the fundamental nature and degree of poverty and suffering hasn't changed much.

So maybe this photo warms the cockles of the hearts of those who live in bubbles where they either never see homeless people, are afraid to help a homeless person (take them into their home), and this gives them "hope" and they can act via support of this officer.

Without really questioning the sanity of a system to where anyone can be without shoes next to a shoe store in first the place.

Carry on.


Why don't you open a thread in politics, where proper responses to your musings can be given, and we carry on?

Because this discussion is just fine where it is.

You method requires the need for attack and secrecy.

I can merely state my opinion with reason and show facts: the poor aren't still with us. They are away from us, usually as far as we can afford to live.

And really, not many read the private forums. And those who do ain't changing their minds on anything.

So go talk to yourself in a corner cause that is effective outcome of your enormous posts in the private section.
Ah, I see.  You prefer to criticize those who do, and take pock shots at the "system," informing us all of the greatness of your self-righteousness.

Continue with your slumming, but spare us your slamming.

Slamming? When did you get so sensitive?

Truth does hurt at times I suppose.
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« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2012, 12:28:36 PM »

I am mostly with Orthonorm on this one.  It is only news because we have an inflated view of the nobility of a NYC police officer and a condescending and pitying view of the homeless.  No one is criticizing the man who bought the shoes.  It is a nice thing that this person did, but it is not exceptional.   The fact that it is being treated as such is a shame on everyone else.  The NYPD is certainly going to do everything it can to capitalize on the PR though.  Have they gotten him a book deal yet?  Wink

Just so I am clear here.

I ain't got nothing against cops. I live somewhere and find myself in circles where they are considered "bad".

I don't. I can't imagine having their job (well I can but you know what I mean).

Just this week there was a herion buy by the vice force which went bad and one drug dealer was shot, one was wounded. And people on this side of the world in Cincinnati are criticizing the police for it.

I wouldn't.

I question their tactic of killing or even spending any time on trying to stop a "hand to hand to sale of herion".

But I have no illusions of what it is like to be in that situation when it goes bad.

Been there.

And I've both had guns pulled on me and been shot at.

And I know the SOP is to unload your firearm once things go south.

I am sure the guy without shoes has a slightly better life for it.

And maybe the PR for the NYPD will be good to alleviate often ineffective tensions between cops and places where the homeless exist.

My point is that Christian love isn't kindness.

It is justice.

God's love isn't "kindness" it is just. And we are called to act in the same manner.

This means doing what is just in whatever way we can. For Christians in late-capitalism this isn't charitable donations and the like.

The imbalance in wealth and income in this country is severe. Random acts of kindness are just justice. The kindness.

We steady and predictable acts of justice and ought not get too caught up in illusion of hope and change moments of kindness offer.
Ever live in the third world?
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2012, 12:29:02 PM »

I don't know why there always has to be an argument in every thread...

Anyway, this is a wonderful thing. Like Liza, I wish it weren't newsworthy, but maybe by being newsworthy it will eventually become less so, in a good way. If even 10% of the people who see the story are inspired to act similarly, then the world will be that much better. And really, looked at from another angle, I'd much rather have stories like this one than to be insulted with a never-ending parade of garbage "news" about what army generals and tabloid celebrities have been doing with their genitalia lately.
Indeed!

There's a goofy insurance comercial where someone does the right thing, someone notices it, and does another right thing and so on.  Hopefully this is real life.

It's not and you know it. This is what ideology is here people.

It is a form of denial.

And yet the unfound reality and "hope" is what so many cling to especially in this season when a lot of fund will go into the purchases the more superfluous of things while others barely get in the wealthiest and most superlative in all things country on the planet.

Now people cannot shoot whatever criticism against me as they wish.

And to the degree it is true that I don't give everything away, proves my point.

No one person can change this.

And goodness isn't catching.

So don't let such moments as noted in this thread do what they tend to: pull one into a of hope and trust in your fellow man and perhaps yourself.

I don't have a photos of such moments, but I live in one more the most depressed parts of the city and the poor do this for each other every day. How else would they get by?

And yes on the weekends and holidays the extremely entitled come down during daylight in droves to "help" out.

And yet the fundamental nature and degree of poverty and suffering hasn't changed much.

So maybe this photo warms the cockles of the hearts of those who live in bubbles where they either never see homeless people, are afraid to help a homeless person (take them into their home), and this gives them "hope" and they can act via support of this officer.

Without really questioning the sanity of a system to where anyone can be without shoes next to a shoe store in first the place.

Carry on.


Why don't you open a thread in politics, where proper responses to your musings can be given, and we carry on?

Because this discussion is just fine where it is.

You method requires the need for attack and secrecy.

I can merely state my opinion with reason and show facts: the poor aren't still with us. They are away from us, usually as far as we can afford to live.

And really, not many read the private forums. And those who do ain't changing their minds on anything.

So go talk to yourself in a corner cause that is effective outcome of your enormous posts in the private section.
Ah, I see.  You prefer to criticize those who do, and take pock shots at the "system," informing us all of the greatness of your self-righteousness.

Continue with your slumming, but spare us your slamming.

Slamming? When did you get so sensitive?

Truth does hurt at times I suppose.
would explain why you avoid it.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2012, 12:52:18 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided
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« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2012, 12:56:23 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

Yeah, reality ain't all football games and hollywood endings.

Should we look at which threads get the highest view to post ratios?
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« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2012, 02:49:19 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.
I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.
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« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2012, 03:34:17 PM »

The inn keeper's story is the story of a man who was entrusted with caring for the sick without being paid the whole amount right away. Given the promise of full payment later on for all the care he will provide. The inn keeper agreed to that deal, showing compassion can be practiced even when one is being paid for what one is doing. The inn keeper took the sick man in with faith, with compassion, and with dedication to tend to his care until the man healed. Restoring the man to health was in the interest of the inn keeper. The good Samaritan was good enough to find a good inn keeper worthy of  being trusted to care for the sick man. So does a just society must create a system that works for a lasting solution to its societal problem. At the time the good Samaritan did what he could for the sick man, but for the long painful process he knew he can not provide by himself he sought and found the innkeeper and brokered a deal that will enable the sick man to get  the care he needed to get well completely. The individual also has a role to play. It is in the cooperation of these two men that the sick man gets taken care of for a lasting recovery from his ailment. The roadside emergency work might stabilize the sick temporarily and it is absolutely important in those critical moments but it can not be a reliable source of health care for the long painful recovery to full health and maintenance of health. I say this to state that I do believe that  Government has a role to play in eradicating poverty, in caring for the most venerable members of the society etc with the right implementation of  just policies. The united we stand slogan has a deeper meaning and far-reaching societal impact than just being an occasional patriotic ejaculation …



The picture  as well as the exaggerated public celebration are both beautiful and grotesque at once. I guess it depends how you look at it. Some see a poor homeless guy being helped by another fellow human being and thus see the beauty of the act, others in addition to the beauty see in the picture a homeless man barefooted in what is reported as a bone breaking cold day in front of a shoe store surrounded by what he needed to survive yet which he can not have thus the slow tortures death of one who knows his life is not worth the price of  one of those hanging shoes on display. Dignity lost, the mockery of ones insignificance amplified in such manner, despair settles in the heart of even the strongest among us. Some of us know that a human being can be destroyed even while the physical health remains intact. That picture triggers mixed reaction from some of us , not always the ooh ahh moment some expect it to be. Do not be surprised if you do not hear what you expect, some see what others do not, and some believe in certain solutions in a manner others do not . If some were to say it is not easy to give, thus all the accolade for the givers must be due, still others will tell us that it is not easy to receive such gifts so they demand our accolades to be accompanied with justified indignation and outrage on the behalf of  the one who must perpetually receive to survive, never to know what it is to thrive. The spectrum of the response to such things is interesting, but the fact that we find the call for a more lasting and most importantly meaningful solution a debatable issue is quite depressing. What orthonorm said is quite sublime and deep and true. I know I am guilty of most of the things he has mentioned in relation to the poor. I know it is not only  in the interest of society in general to provide  justice for the plight of the poor, the mentally ill the disenfranchised  so as to create a healthy productive society, but it is also the right and for us a Christian thing to do. What does it say about us as a society to live in a first world and sceneries of depravity and suffering  like these are so norm that the none normative astounding thing becomes the act of  a fellow human being’s kindness to the society at large. Quite sobering. If you think about it.
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« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2012, 04:10:38 PM »

Quote
This means doing what is just in whatever way we can. For Christians in late-capitalism this isn't charitable donations and the like.

My church seems to think it is, given that it runs programs like this one, which aim to help people in part through charitable donations (also through job placement services and the like).

What is it, then? What should Christians in late-capitalism be doing about these problems? Should we all become liberation theology people, or what?

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« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2012, 06:43:23 PM »

(or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).


Sorry looking over my posts some of the difficulty is due to the haste and manner in which they were written to be sure.

I've mentioned I have a bit of a weird thing with typing nowadays. Well that was compounded by the way I was typing and the circumstances under which I was doing it.
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« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2012, 06:47:01 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.
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« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2012, 07:03:18 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.

And then no one will see it.

No thanks. I've gotten enough PMs from people enjoying this discussion.

And I don't like how things play in there. Nothing interesting happens.
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« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2012, 07:05:50 PM »

Quote
This means doing what is just in whatever way we can. For Christians in late-capitalism this isn't charitable donations and the like.

My church seems to think it is, given that it runs programs like this one, which aim to help people in part through charitable donations (also through job placement services and the like).

What is it, then? What should Christians in late-capitalism be doing about these problems? Should we all become liberation theology people, or what?



I was in the middle of typing up a "reply" and its grown enormous.

Let me come back to it later, if I feel up to it.

But your question is important. Very important. In fact it is nearly always THE question.

Later all. Sorry for the dropped words in my initial posts.

It's a bit embarrassing but it something I have to accept or I will have a hard time ever using a keyboard.
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« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2012, 07:13:53 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.

And then no one will see it.

No thanks. I've gotten enough PMs from people enjoying this discussion.
And then no one will see them.

And I don't like how things play in there. Nothing interesting happens.
like your enigmas being unraveled?
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« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2012, 07:16:52 PM »

(or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).


Sorry looking over my posts some of the difficulty is due to the haste and manner in which they were written to be sure.

I've mentioned I have a bit of a weird thing with typing nowadays. Well that was compounded by the way I was typing and the circumstances under which I was doing it.

I always have difficulty with your posts Orthonorm. It is not a bad thing. It makes me think while reading in between your lines. It is both frustrating and charming at the same time.
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« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2012, 07:20:06 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.

And then no one will see it.

No thanks. I've gotten enough PMs from people enjoying this discussion.
And then no one will see them.

And I don't like how things play in there. Nothing interesting happens.
like your enigmas being unraveled?

Nope. Sorry Isa, you can argue right here just fine. But you are incapable of it when you cannot build elaborately and finely constructed strawmen of history to fit whatever argument you want to put forth at the moment.

Look at your single contribution:

Something about living in the third world.

When it comes to actual thought, other than making interesting and entertaining and brilliant but irrelevant collages of websites, your posts are rather weak.

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« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2012, 07:20:58 PM »

What a surprise this thread comes when a woman an a dirty EMT jacket approached me outside the grocery store in tears begging for $40. Didn't have cash nor did I have my debit card for an ATM withdrawal. My bank is closed too.
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« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2012, 07:32:02 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.

I do not see the point in private forums. If you feel there is some utility in joining, let me know. I also do not consider the topic political. If you feel I am incorrect about this, let me know. I know both Andriu and Vamrat are perfectly capable of putting me down with both tact and a sense of humor. I admire your debating skills and I appreciate criticism. You should lighten up a bit.

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« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2012, 07:36:47 PM »

My point about the PMs, Isa is that people who would not have access to the private area are happy to see this discussion.

We both know where we are "politically" in how this board typically defines politics.

Of course this is a political topic in the sense that all things are political. Anyone with you knowledge of Greek would understand what I am saying here.

Rather than get into long and drawn out and tedious historical made up case studies, my critique remains and will remain just that a critique of this sorta behavior and its celebration as an effective method of furthering ideology which is actually anti-Christian today. This behavior knows no political party bounds. Both conservatives and liberals to use those words loosely engage in and celebrate such actions.

So this isn't a conservative vs. liberal issue as both necessarily are part of the working ideology which creates these moments.

But I beg time. I do have a lot happening and I am thinking about more than a few things at once. Frankly, I thought people would just tell me to get lost except for those who know me well enough to understand from whence this critique comes and possibly goes.

In short, photos, maps, figures, charts, of failed socialism of the 20th century have no bearing here.

Questions of God's justice and what that might look like if one is to take it seriously in late-capitalist societies do.

So if you have maps, charts, and tables for that, start your cutting and pasting.
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« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2012, 07:39:28 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.

I do not see the point in private forums. If you feel there is some utility in joining, let me know. I also do not consider the topic political. If you feel I am incorrect about this, let me know. I know both Andriu and Vamrat are perfectly capable of putting me down with both tact and a sense of humor. I admire your debating skills and I appreciate criticism. You should lighten up a bit.



It is political in the sense of the polis and who participates in it and how those who can do participate in it. But as in my reply above, this is not about "American party politics".

Both liberals (often more so than conservatives, as they take them more personally) find my criticisms around late-capitalist solutions to poverty and economic injustice to be problematic.

OK, I must get back to life after looking at the board once more.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 07:40:18 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2012, 07:49:23 PM »

The inn keeper's story is the story of a man who was entrusted with caring for the sick without being paid the whole amount right away. Given the promise of full payment later on for all the care he will provide. The inn keeper agreed to that deal, showing compassion can be practiced even when one is being paid for what one is doing. The inn keeper took the sick man in with faith, with compassion, and with dedication to tend to his care until the man healed. Restoring the man to health was in the interest of the inn keeper. The good Samaritan was good enough to find a good inn keeper worthy of  being trusted to care for the sick man. So does a just society must create a system that works for a lasting solution to its societal problem. At the time the good Samaritan did what he could for the sick man, but for the long painful process he knew he can not provide by himself he sought and found the innkeeper and brokered a deal that will enable the sick man to get  the care he needed to get well completely. The individual also has a role to play. It is in the cooperation of these two men that the sick man gets taken care of for a lasting recovery from his ailment. The roadside emergency work might stabilize the sick temporarily and it is absolutely important in those critical moments but it can not be a reliable source of health care for the long painful recovery to full health and maintenance of health. I say this to state that I do believe that  Government has a role to play in eradicating poverty, in caring for the most venerable members of the society etc with the right implementation of  just policies. The united we stand slogan has a deeper meaning and far-reaching societal impact than just being an occasional patriotic ejaculation …



The picture  as well as the exaggerated public celebration are both beautiful and grotesque at once. I guess it depends how you look at it. Some see a poor homeless guy being helped by another fellow human being and thus see the beauty of the act, others in addition to the beauty see in the picture a homeless man barefooted in what is reported as a bone breaking cold day in front of a shoe store surrounded by what he needed to survive yet which he can not have thus the slow tortures death of one who knows his life is not worth the price of  one of those hanging shoes on display. Dignity lost, the mockery of ones insignificance amplified in such manner, despair settles in the heart of even the strongest among us. Some of us know that a human being can be destroyed even while the physical health remains intact. That picture triggers mixed reaction from some of us , not always the ooh ahh moment some expect it to be. Do not be surprised if you do not hear what you expect, some see what others do not, and some believe in certain solutions in a manner others do not . If some were to say it is not easy to give, thus all the accolade for the givers must be due, still others will tell us that it is not easy to receive such gifts so they demand our accolades to be accompanied with justified indignation and outrage on the behalf of  the one who must perpetually receive to survive, never to know what it is to thrive. The spectrum of the response to such things is interesting, but the fact that we find the call for a more lasting and most importantly meaningful solution a debatable issue is quite depressing. What orthonorm said is quite sublime and deep and true. I know I am guilty of most of the things he has mentioned in relation to the poor. I know it is not only  in the interest of society in general to provide  justice for the plight of the poor, the mentally ill the disenfranchised  so as to create a healthy productive society, but it is also the right and for us a Christian thing to do. What does it say about us as a society to live in a first world and sceneries of depravity and suffering  like these are so norm that the none normative astounding thing becomes the act of  a fellow human being’s kindness to the society at large. Quite sobering. If you think about it.


Your voice is a gift from God Hiwot.  It is a blessing in my life to experience it.
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« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2012, 07:50:48 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
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« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2012, 08:00:13 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.

I do not see the point in private forums. If you feel there is some utility in joining, let me know. I also do not consider the topic political. If you feel I am incorrect about this, let me know.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know both Andriu and Vamrat are perfectly capable of putting me down with both tact and a sense of humor. I admire your debating skills and I appreciate criticism. You should lighten up a bit.
I'm as light hearted as need be. Maybe more.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2012, 08:13:48 PM »

Is it wrong that we should scale back our criticism of this man, even just slightly? It's not like this officer has thousands of homes that are unoccupied so he could shelter the homeless. Perhaps instead of just giving the man socks and shoes, he could help assist him in finding living (looks like he tried to feed him but left, so I guess I can cross this out). That's part of protecting and serving, which we don't see too much of these days.

Bringing a homeless man to his house may not be sustainable either. I know for me if I housed a few homeless people myself, I could not sustain them on my salary.

But what I am critical of are those that have made a sensation about this, like ZealousZeal said, he still is homeless, so the problem really isn't fixed here.

Providing housing to all, should not be even considered an entitlement, but a right. If folks want to get better housing than one provided to them, either by government subsidy or whatever, then that should be their choice to work to get such a thing. Which I think in this framework will appease both sides of the political spectrum.

In all honesty, even if this officer gave him a house to live in, that still isn't going to really solve much on a large scale.

Quote
He tried to persuade the man to get something to eat, but he declined and left.
Just saw this from the article in the OP. Interesting.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 08:22:31 PM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2012, 08:18:09 PM »

What a bummer this thread turned out to be  Undecided

I come away with a different opinion Asteriktos. The issue Orthonorm brought up is important. I think about this topic quite a bit.

In my mind, it is the fact that Orthonorm's position is being argued against that I find discouraging (or at least my reading of his posts, he is hard to decipher).

My position:

I should take in the homeless.
I acknowledge that it will lead to discomfort and complexity in my life.
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I know there are homeless people that just need a head start. All they need is a job, a car (depending on location) and first and last month's rent to get on their feet.  I know that taking them in, solves this need.
I know that the increase in the food bills and utilities is doable if you live more frugally.
All acts of kindness, however small, are wonderful.

I could go on, but I have to go to a laundromat.

hence I suggested he start a thread in politics.

And then no one will see it.

No thanks. I've gotten enough PMs from people enjoying this discussion.
And then no one will see them.

And I don't like how things play in there. Nothing interesting happens.
like your enigmas being unraveled?

Nope. Sorry Isa, you can argue right here just fine. But you are incapable of it when you cannot build elaborately and finely constructed strawmen of history to fit whatever argument you want to put forth at the moment.
It is only a problem when pathetic and trite projections of capitalism as the great boogey man rear their ugly heads, and can't be chopped off for obscuring the view.

Look at your single contribution:
among my many contributions comes the OP.

Something about living in the third world.

When it comes to actual thought, other than making interesting and entertaining and brilliant but irrelevant collages of websites, your posts are rather weak.
Given the rambling, stream of affected consciousness nature of your posts, physician, perhaps you might heal thyself
http://www.designsojourn.com/how-to-avoid-mental-masturbation/
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« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2012, 08:22:43 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
Maybe orthonorm can catch the next flight out of Cincy to the Big Apple, find former shoeless man and take him back to his diggs.....problem solved!  Grin

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« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2012, 08:23:14 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
Maybe orthonorm can catch the next flight out of Cincy to the Big Apple, find former shoeless man and take him back to his diggs.....problem solved!  Grin


That doesn't solve anything really.
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« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2012, 08:25:13 PM »

Is it wrong that we should scale back our criticism of this man, even just slightly? It's not like this officer has thousands of homes that are unoccupied so he could shelter the homeless. Perhaps instead of just giving the man socks and shoes, he could help assist him in finding living. That's part of protecting and serving, which we don't see too much of these days.

Bringing a homeless man to his house may not be sustainable either. I know for me if I housed a few homeless people myself, I could not sustain them on my salary.

But what I am critical of are those that have made a sensation about this, like ZealousZeal said, he still is homeless, so the problem really isn't fixed here.

Providing housing to all, should not be even considered an entitlement, but a right. If folks want to get better housing than one provided to them, either by government subsidy or whatever, then that should be their choice to work to get such a thing. Which I think in this framework will appease both sides of the political spectrum.

In all honesty, even if this officer gave him a house to live in, that still isn't going to really solve much on a large scale.
The officer, in fact, doesn't even have a house of his own.  He lives with his parents.

Getting into the absurd notion of a house being a right-how we got into this present economic collapse, btw.  Some people never learn-however, would be seen as a discussion of politics by the powers that be here.

Not sure it would solve the problem of this particular homeless man either, though I don't know all the facts on that.
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« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2012, 08:31:38 PM »

The officer, in fact, doesn't even have a house of his own.  He lives with his parents.
Didn't know that, thanks.

Quote
Getting into the absurd notion of a house being a right-how we got into this present economic collapse, btw.  Some people never learn-however, would be seen as a discussion of politics by the powers that be here.
Well just a second here, that was on the banks taking massive risks on those who were subprime. Why banks would loan money to those who didn't have the credit worthiness to pay them back is anyone's guess. Luckily my employer was smart enough to miss out on the bubble burst.

But what I am talking about is completely different. I am not saying owning a house is a right, I said having housing provided is a right (perhaps shelter is a better word here, because when I say housing I loop in condos, apartments, townhomes, etc). Don't you believe that everyone should have some property and make it into however they please? I thought you were a distributist?

Quote
Not sure it would solve the problem of this particular homeless man either, though I don't know all the facts on that.
What is the problem of the homeless man?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 08:32:14 PM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2012, 08:34:25 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
Maybe orthonorm can catch the next flight out of Cincy to the Big Apple, find former shoeless man and take him back to his diggs.....problem solved!  Grin


That doesn't solve anything really.
Au contraire, it solves everything, didn't you know that?

Because, you see, all these people need are houses! Think houses now people, houses!

All the homeless need are homes and all these little problems with little shoeless, homeless people go away.

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« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2012, 08:37:30 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
Maybe orthonorm can catch the next flight out of Cincy to the Big Apple, find former shoeless man and take him back to his diggs.....problem solved!  Grin


That doesn't solve anything really.
Au contraire, it solves everything, didn't you know that?

Because, you see, all these people need are houses! Think houses now people, houses!

All the homeless need are homes and all these little problems with little shoeless, homeless people go away.


Well they would cease to be homeless if they have a home. Of course I would advocate other necessities being a right, such as food and clothing.

I'm not sure why you are building a strawman that having a house solves everything.
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« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2012, 08:38:18 PM »

Is it wrong that we should scale back our criticism of this man, even just slightly?

Who is criticizing the man as such?

Really this is why it is difficult to have such discussions online especially amid a chorus of voice well rehearsed in the unconscious apologetics of the day.
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« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2012, 08:43:06 PM »

Is it wrong that we should scale back our criticism of this man, even just slightly? It's not like this officer has thousands of homes that are unoccupied so he could shelter the homeless. Perhaps instead of just giving the man socks and shoes, he could help assist him in finding living. That's part of protecting and serving, which we don't see too much of these days.

Bringing a homeless man to his house may not be sustainable either. I know for me if I housed a few homeless people myself, I could not sustain them on my salary.

But what I am critical of are those that have made a sensation about this, like ZealousZeal said, he still is homeless, so the problem really isn't fixed here.

Providing housing to all, should not be even considered an entitlement, but a right. If folks want to get better housing than one provided to them, either by government subsidy or whatever, then that should be their choice to work to get such a thing. Which I think in this framework will appease both sides of the political spectrum.

In all honesty, even if this officer gave him a house to live in, that still isn't going to really solve much on a large scale.
The officer, in fact, doesn't even have a house of his own.  He lives with his parents.

Getting into the absurd notion of a house being a right-how we got into this present economic collapse, btw.  Some people never learn-however, would be seen as a discussion of politics by the powers that be here.

Not sure it would solve the problem of this particular homeless man either, though I don't know all the facts on that.

Here is the next step of Isa's gambit to get this put into politics.

Or the symptom of an incredible lack of imagination or understanding of the difference of people who buy "homes" rather than people who need "housing".
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« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2012, 08:47:59 PM »

Given the rambling, stream of affected consciousness nature of your posts, physician, perhaps you might heal thyself
http://www.designsojourn.com/how-to-avoid-mental-masturbation/

When it comes to matters of such masturbation, pardon me if I don't follow the advice of eunuchs.

And really you need to look up "stream of consciousness", since your usage here shows again, when you are out of your depth, you should stay in the kiddy pool.

So are we going to stop the oneupmanship yet? 5 out of 8 times, you will win at least. I bow to your internetz. A remarkable feat given you being ESL (if that even applies to you anymore).

So are we finished with this and can spare the others here?
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« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2012, 09:04:32 PM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

Well, he was a shoeless, homeless man who is now merely homeless. So that's something!
Maybe orthonorm can catch the next flight out of Cincy to the Big Apple, find former shoeless man and take him back to his diggs.....problem solved!  Grin


That doesn't solve anything really.
Au contraire, it solves everything, didn't you know that?

Because, you see, all these people need are houses! Think houses now people, houses!

All the homeless need are homes and all these little problems with little shoeless, homeless people go away.


Well they would cease to be homeless if they have a home. Of course I would advocate other necessities being a right, such as food and clothing.

I'm not sure why you are building a strawman that having a house solves everything.
I'm just being facetious, we all know the answer is not just "giving" people anything. As a matter of fact, it just makes the problem worse. The more you subsidize, the more you get.
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« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2012, 09:24:54 PM »



Luckily my employer was smart enough to miss out on the bubble burst.

But what I am talking about is completely different. I am not saying owning a house is a right, I said having housing provided is a right (perhaps shelter is a better word here, because when I say housing I loop in condos, apartments, townhomes, etc). Don't you believe that everyone should have some property and make it into however they please? I thought you were a distributist?
The fact is, human nature what it is, parcel out an equal housing arrangement with all the inhabitants, some will piddle it away in no time, while others will be living in mansions

In a number of redistribution schemes, many large houses of the wealthy were taken, and were just subdivided and parceled out at random to the popular base.  Instead of appreciating what they got for nothing, they acted basically as unevictable tenants, putting nothing into upkeep, and turned once palatial residences into dilapidated hovels.  People vest their resources only in things they have a vested interest in.

It would make sense to encourage a low threshhold that one with limited means can attain to start on the ladder up.  But it would have to involve participants, not recipients, who would have to meat half way to the program.

In the case of the present collapse, it would be wiser to create an option to foreclosure, a short of rent-to-own program where those who cannot pay their mortgage but can pay something in rent are giving the option to do so and have it count to giving them a percentage of the sale price when and if it is sold, or can be rolled over into refinancing in better times.  At present, all we are getting are empty houses that banks cannot rent nor upkeep.  Better to have someone with a vested interest in the upkeep of the property continue to do so.

Not sure it would solve the problem of this particular homeless man either, though I don't know all the facts on that.
What is the problem of the homeless man?
I don't know all the particulars, but he has been identified (though it seems he refuses to come forward to comment), and some facts of his life going back 30 years are known.
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« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2012, 09:27:19 PM »

Is it wrong that we should scale back our criticism of this man, even just slightly? It's not like this officer has thousands of homes that are unoccupied so he could shelter the homeless. Perhaps instead of just giving the man socks and shoes, he could help assist him in finding living. That's part of protecting and serving, which we don't see too much of these days.

Bringing a homeless man to his house may not be sustainable either. I know for me if I housed a few homeless people myself, I could not sustain them on my salary.

But what I am critical of are those that have made a sensation about this, like ZealousZeal said, he still is homeless, so the problem really isn't fixed here.

Providing housing to all, should not be even considered an entitlement, but a right. If folks want to get better housing than one provided to them, either by government subsidy or whatever, then that should be their choice to work to get such a thing. Which I think in this framework will appease both sides of the political spectrum.

In all honesty, even if this officer gave him a house to live in, that still isn't going to really solve much on a large scale.
The officer, in fact, doesn't even have a house of his own.  He lives with his parents.

Getting into the absurd notion of a house being a right-how we got into this present economic collapse, btw.  Some people never learn-however, would be seen as a discussion of politics by the powers that be here.

Not sure it would solve the problem of this particular homeless man either, though I don't know all the facts on that.

Here is the next step of Isa's gambit to get this put into politics.

Or the symptom of an incredible lack of imagination or understanding of the difference of people who buy "homes" rather than people who need "housing".
Your lack of understanding the difficulty in maintaining such a difference is showing.
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« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2012, 09:27:54 PM »

Prof, I would edit the first response to my quote just so you don't get on a warned/moderated status. Or just move that bit to Politics. The rest of it let me think about it for while.
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« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2012, 09:31:58 PM »

Given the rambling, stream of affected consciousness nature of your posts, physician, perhaps you might heal thyself
http://www.designsojourn.com/how-to-avoid-mental-masturbation/

When it comes to matters of such masturbation, pardon me if I don't follow the advice of eunuchs.
ah, I see. Girls don't do it.

But, IIRC the accounts of the Forbidden City, eunuchs do.

And really you need to look up "stream of consciousness", since your usage here shows again, when you are out of your depth, you should stay in the kiddy pool.
Sorry, I don't see the profundity in your puddles.

So are we going to stop the oneupmanship yet? 5 out of 8 times, you will win at least. I bow to your internetz. A remarkable feat given you being ESL (if that even applies to you anymore).
So I don't have to play to win?

So are we finished with this and can spare the others here?
Only you can answer that.
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« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2012, 09:33:21 PM »

They were threatened by Democrap interests within the government and Democrap "community organizing" without to do so.

The furthering of the gambit to get this shuttered into politics. So such diatribes can be made and line everyone up in the same old back and forth for which both sides know all so well.

Isa demonstrating he cannot discuss nearly anything without resorting his two or three note polemics which pass as some sorta conventional wisdom.

When it comes to theory, nothing.

When it comes to be able to discuss something in a public, he is incapable, oft even he could possibly do so.

Just want to point this out before this thread gets torn apart.
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« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2012, 09:37:08 PM »

Prof, I would edit the first response to my quote just so you don't get on a warned/moderated status. Or just move that bit to Politics. The rest of it let me think about it for while.

He cannot help himself.

Even when offered an olive branch.

Look at the responses of his in the thread before his absolute decision to have it moved to politics with the tired and old rhetoric of his. "Have you lived in a third world country."

He doesn't even understand what the criticism is.

All he knows how to do is respond as in the above.

EDIT: Oh he decided to move the discussion there, good. Enjoy the cul-de-sac.
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« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2012, 09:45:16 PM »

Prof, I would edit the first response to my quote just so you don't get on a warned/moderated status. Or just move that bit to Politics. The rest of it let me think about it for while.

He cannot help himself.

Even when offered an olive branch.
One man's olive branch, another man's thrashing switch.

Look at the responses of his in the thread before his absolute decision to have it moved to politics with the tired and old rhetoric of his. "Have you lived in a third world country."
Not rhetorical at all: have you?

He doesn't even understand what the criticism is.
Not my job to give coherence to your incoherence.  If you have a point or a program, spit it out.

All he knows how to do is respond as in the above.

EDIT: Oh he decided to move the discussion there, good. Enjoy the cul-de-sac.
don't bite your tail.
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« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2012, 09:46:32 PM »

They were threatened by Democrap interests within the government and Democrap "community organizing" without to do so.

The furthering of the gambit to get this shuttered into politics. So such diatribes can be made and line everyone up in the same old back and forth for which both sides know all so well.

Isa demonstrating he cannot discuss nearly anything without resorting his two or three note polemics which pass as some sorta conventional wisdom.

When it comes to theory, nothing.

When it comes to be able to discuss something in a public, he is incapable, oft even he could possibly do so.

Just want to point this out before this thread gets torn apart.
well, I guess Rome, er, Cincinnati has spoken.
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« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2012, 09:58:46 PM »

I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I saw the text you put in bold the first time. The quoted text followed this statement:
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I am guilty here of requiring you to read between the lines. I am not qualified to take care of the mentally ill or drug addicts. If I were alone, I might try and thereby learn from my experience because I do not believe anyone should be homeless and destitute. The care  of the mentally ill and drug addicts should be dealt with by professionals. This is where government comes into play in my scenario. I can take care of an additional family of four, sometimes more depending on my circumstances. I cannot take in people I do not know how to deal with and imperil people I do know how to deal with.

Is that clearer? I see the government as a pragmatic solution to a serious problem. I do not see it as political.

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I'm as light hearted as need be. Maybe more.

I know you can be. I am not a threat, since I am adverse to debating beyond stating and justifying my emotional take on what is the right thing to do. I also appreciate your minimal use of emoticons. I hate having to stare at them when I post - I am sure they must be satanic or something like that.
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« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2012, 10:18:13 PM »

I believe the government needs to play a major role.
I believe the burden must be shared throughout the country (so that no community or state is overburdened). This is a tax we need.

I saw the text you put in bold the first time. The quoted text followed this statement:
I cannot take in drug addicts and mentally ill people due to putting other people in peril.
I am guilty here of requiring you to read between the lines. I am not qualified to take care of the mentally ill or drug addicts. If I were alone, I might try and thereby learn from my experience because I do not believe anyone should be homeless and destitute. The care  of the mentally ill and drug addicts should be dealt with by professionals. This is where government comes into play in my scenario. I can take care of an additional family of four, sometimes more depending on my circumstances. I cannot take in people I do not know how to deal with and imperil people I do know how to deal with.

Is that clearer? I see the government as a pragmatic solution to a serious problem. I do not see it as political.
I worked for 5 years with the mentally ill and drug addicts in a professional setting.  I saw how it is not a pragmatic solution, but very much a political one.  Btw, in some ways, the situations of those who imperil others are much easier to "solve."

I'm as light hearted as need be. Maybe more.

I know you can be. I am not a threat, since I am adverse to debating beyond stating and justifying my emotional take on what is the right thing to do. I also appreciate your minimal use of emoticons. I hate having to stare at them when I post - I am sure they must be satanic or something like that.
I actually miss the wide variety of them at CAF.
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« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2012, 11:37:39 PM »

Nice cops apparently do exits  angel

Awesome thing of the cop to do.

Two things which people as a whole have forgotten.  One - cops are people too and usually very nice people, or they wouldn't want to be cops and help others.  Two - helping a person in need is a good thing.  We should do it more often.  This way, it won't be such a shock when it happens.
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« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2012, 11:53:13 PM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement. 

I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”

It’s impetuous of us to second guess the officer and outrageous to demand all people who suffer in the least bit be coddled until we feel good about it, rather than them feeling good about it.  Or have we forgotten some people do not want our pity or charity?  It you REALLY feel the government should give handouts, consider the officer is an agent of the government and gave a hand out.  Problem with that philosophy is corrected.

Let’s enjoy this for what it was and hope others will follow the example.
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« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2012, 12:39:11 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement. 

I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”
There is evidence of more of the former, but, for sake of argument, let's say the man (his name is Jeffery Hillman btw) is where he is because he spent all his living in drug use.  That is separate from what Officer Larry DiPrimo did.

It’s impetuous of us to second guess the officer and outrageous to demand all people who suffer in the least bit be coddled until we feel good about it, rather than them feeling good about it.  Or have we forgotten some people do not want our pity or charity?  It you REALLY feel the government should give handouts, consider the officer is an agent of the government and gave a hand out.  Problem with that philosophy is corrected.

Let’s enjoy this for what it was and hope others will follow the example.

Amen!
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« Reply #76 on: December 02, 2012, 01:17:53 AM »

I worked for 5 years with the mentally ill and drug addicts in a professional setting.  I saw how it is not a pragmatic solution, but very much a political one.  Btw, in some ways, the situations of those who imperil others are much easier to "solve."
This is not the answer that I hoped for. I might be more impressed if I hadn't been caring for a mentally ill son for 24 years.  No doubt you have some justification for your statement. What I do not understand is why you would elevate what appears to me to be exceptions to the rule as THE RULE. We perhaps live in different worlds with different situations.

I'm as light hearted as need be. Maybe more.

I know you can be. I am not a threat, since I am adverse to debating beyond stating and justifying my emotional take on what is the right thing to do. I also appreciate your minimal use of emoticons. I hate having to stare at them when I post - I am sure they must be satanic or something like that.
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Maybe so. Nevertheless, I appreciate the absence of these ambiguous demons from your posts.
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« Reply #77 on: December 02, 2012, 01:23:33 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement. 

I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”

It’s impetuous of us to second guess the officer and outrageous to demand all people who suffer in the least bit be coddled until we feel good about it, rather than them feeling good about it.  Or have we forgotten some people do not want our pity or charity?  It you REALLY feel the government should give handouts, consider the officer is an agent of the government and gave a hand out.  Problem with that philosophy is corrected.

Let’s enjoy this for what it was and hope others will follow the example.

Please tell me who has attacked him. Because here's what's been said as far as I can tell:
The cop did a pretty decent thing.
This really shouldn't be seen as a huge deal.
In praising the cop's action, we get to feel a sense of participation that we haven't necessarily earned.
There are huge institutional problems that allow America to exist with the extremes of wealth and poverty we see, and focusing on little band-aids like this can distract us from them.

So what is a right exactly?
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« Reply #78 on: December 02, 2012, 02:13:20 AM »

I worked for 5 years with the mentally ill and drug addicts in a professional setting.  I saw how it is not a pragmatic solution, but very much a political one.  Btw, in some ways, the situations of those who imperil others are much easier to "solve."
This is not the answer that I hoped for. I might be more impressed if I hadn't been caring for a mentally ill son for 24 years.  No doubt you have some justification for your statement. What I do not understand is why you would elevate what appears to me to be exceptions to the rule as THE RULE. We perhaps live in different worlds with different situations.
Since I didn't mention any exceptions, perhaps you live in a world with clairvoyance. In which case what appears to you as a rule would be most impressive.

I'm as light hearted as need be. Maybe more.
I know you can be. I am not a threat, since I am adverse to debating beyond stating and justifying my emotional take on what is the right thing to do. I also appreciate your minimal use of emoticons. I hate having to stare at them when I post - I am sure they must be satanic or something like that.
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Maybe so. Nevertheless, I appreciate the absence of these ambiguous demons from your posts.
Well then good.  I hate leaving any ambiguity in my posts.
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« Reply #79 on: December 02, 2012, 02:37:54 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.

Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for the homeless.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those in need.
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those that need clothing and/or starving.

I do not have a problem with the guaranteed rights part, but I cannot jive the "nor should it be" with Matthew 25:31-46. Am I missing something that clearly counters the Words of Christ?

Quote
When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement. 
This is certainly empty rhetoric with no basis on reality. This is an insult for all of humanity, which is  unjustifiable in my opinion. There is a lot of good in us, despite our failings.

Quote
I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”
I did not see glancing attacks on the officer. I saw glancing attacks on us Orthodox Christians not being Orthodox Christians. There is a distinction here that you missed.

I am personally indebted to the police force here. They have both protected me from harm, prevented my son from doing harm to himself and they have given me good advice which I am following. I am grateful that they do not have your "as it should be" attitude.
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« Reply #80 on: December 02, 2012, 02:59:29 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement. 

I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”

It’s impetuous of us to second guess the officer and outrageous to demand all people who suffer in the least bit be coddled until we feel good about it, rather than them feeling good about it.  Or have we forgotten some people do not want our pity or charity?  It you REALLY feel the government should give handouts, consider the officer is an agent of the government and gave a hand out.  Problem with that philosophy is corrected.

Let’s enjoy this for what it was and hope others will follow the example.

Please tell me who has attacked him. Because here's what's been said as far as I can tell:
The cop did a pretty decent thing.
And personal charity might matter in some momentary sense of benefiting both parties involved or at least the party "giving" something away as it allows them to return to their life of imbalanced wealth and assuage their conscience for living the way the do along the reality of the other they "helped".
I am mostly with Orthonorm on this one.  It is only news because we have an inflated view of the nobility of a NYC police officer and a condescending and pitying view of the homeless.  No one is criticizing the man who bought the shoes.  It is a nice thing that this person did, but it is not exceptional.   The fact that it is being treated as such is a shame on everyone else.  The NYPD is certainly going to do everything it can to capitalize on the PR though.  Have they gotten him a book deal yet?  Wink

This really shouldn't be seen as a huge deal.
In praising the cop's action, we get to feel a sense of participation that we haven't necessarily earned.
Would we get the same sense of participation that we haven't necessarily earned if the officer shot him instead?  If we were blamed for praising that, would such reproach be unearned?

There are huge institutional problems that allow America to exist with the extremes of wealth and poverty we see, and focusing on little band-aids like this can distract us from them.
You assUme that these alleged huge institutional problems put Mr. Hillmann on the street.  Not to mention positing extremes of wealth and poverty not in evidence.

So Officer DiPrimo should have shot Mr. Hillman, since rubbing salt in the wound will focus us and make you all happy.

So what is a right exactly?
The Biblical term is "eksousia":
exousia: power to act, authority
Original Word: ἐξουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: exousia
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-oo-see'-ah)
Short Definition: power, authority, weight
Definition: (a) power, authority, weight, especially: moral authority, influence, (b) in a quasi-personal sense, derived from later Judaism, of a spiritual power, and hence of an earthly power.
1849 eksousía (from 1537 /ek, "out from," which intensifies 1510 /eimí, "to be, being as a right or privilege") – authority, conferred power; delegated empowerment ("authorization"), operating in a designated jurisdiction.

In the NT, 1849 /eksousía ("delegated power") refers to the authority God gives to His saints – authorizing them to act to the extent they are guided by faith (His revealed word).

STRONGS NT 1849: ἐξουσία

ἐξουσία, ἐξουσίας, ἡ (from ἔξεστι, ἐξόν, which see), from Euripides, Xenophon, Plato down; the Sept. for מֶמְשָׁלָה and Chaldean שָׁלְטָן; power.

1. power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases; leave or permission: 1 Corinthians 9:12, 18; ἔχειν ἐξουσίαν, 2 Thessalonians 3:9; with an infinitive added indicating the thing to be done, John 10:18; 1 Corinthians 9:4; Hebrews 13:10 (WH brackets ἐξουσία); followed by an infinitive with τοῦ, 1 Corinthians 9:6 (L T Tr WH omit τοῦ); with a genitive of the thing or the person with regard to which one has the power to decide: Romans 9:21 (where an explanatory infinitive is added (Buttmann, 260 (224))); 1 Corinthians 9:12; ἐπί τό ξύλον τῆς ζωῆς, permission to use the tree of life, Revelation 22:14 (see ἐπί, C. I. 2 e.); ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν περί τοῦ ἰδίου θελήματος (opposed to ἀνάγκην ἔχειν (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 3 N. 5)), 1 Corinthians 7:37; ἐν τῇ ἰδίᾳ ἐξουσία (appointed, see τίθημι, 1 a. sub at the end) according to his own choice, Acts 1:7; ἐν τῇ σῇ ἐξουσία ὑπῆρχεν, i. e. at thy free disposal, Acts 5:4; used of liberty under the gospel, as opposed to the yoke of the Mosaic law, 1 Corinthians 8:9.

2. "physical and mental power; the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises": Matthew 9:8; Acts 8:19; Revelation 9:3, 19; Revelation 13:2, 4; Revelation 18:1; followed by an infinitive of the thing to be done, Mark 3:15; Luke 12:5; John 1:12; Revelation 9:10; Revelation 11:6; Revelation 13:5; followed by τοῦ with the infinitive Luke 10:19; αὕτη ἐστιν ἡ ἐξουσία τοῦ σκότους, this is the power that darkness exerts, Luke 22:53; ποιεῖν ἐξουσίαν to exert power, give exhibitions of power, Revelation 13:12; ἐν ἐξουσία εἶναι, to be possessed of power and influence, Luke 4:32; also ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν (both expressions refer to the ability and weight which Jesus exhibited in his teaching) Matthew 7:29; (Mark 1:22); κατ' ἐξουσίαν powerfully, Mark 1:27; also ἐν ἐξουσία, Luke 4:36.

3. the power of authority (influence) and of right: Matthew 21:23; Mark 11:28; Luke 20:2; spoken of the authority of an apostle, 2 Corinthians 10:8; 2 Corinthians 13:10; of the divine authority granted to Jesus as Messiah, with the infinitive of the thing to be done, Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:10; Luke 5:24; John 5:27; ἐν ποίᾳ ἐξουσία; clothed in what authority (i. e. thine own or God's?), Matthew 21:23, 24, 27; Mark 11:28, 29, 33; Luke 20:2, 8; delegated authority (German Vollmacht, authorization): παρά τίνος, with the genitive of the person by whom the authority is given, or received, Acts 9:14; Acts 26:10, 12 (R G).

4. the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed (generally translated authority));

a. universally: Matthew 28:18; Jude 1:25; Revelation 12:10; Revelation 17:13; λαμβάνειν, ἐξουσίαν ὡς βασιλεύς, Revelation 17:12; εἰμί ὑπό ἐξουσίαν, I am under authority, Matthew 8:9; with τασσόμενος added, (Matthew 8:9 L WH brackets); Luke 7:8; ἐξουσία τίνος, the genitive of the object, authority (to be exercised) over, as τῶν πνευμάτων τῶν ἀκαθάρτων, Mark 6:7; with ὥστε ἐκβάλλειν αὐτά added, Matthew 10:1; ἐξουσίαν πάσης σαρκός, authority over all mankind, John 17:2 (πάσης σαρκός κυρειαν, Bel and the Dragon, verse 5); (the genitive of the subject, τοῦ Σατανᾶ, Acts 26:18); ἐπί τινα, power over one, so as to be able to subdue, drive out, destroy, Revelation 6:8; ἐπί τά δαιμόνια, Luke 9:1; or to hold submissive to one's will, Revelation 13:7; ἐπί τάς πληγάς, the power to inflict plagues and to put an end to them, Revelation 16:9; ἐπί τῶν ἐθνῶν, over the heathen nations, Revelation 2:26; ἐπί τίνος, to destroy one, Revelation 20:6; ἔχειν ἐξουσίαν ἐπί τοῦ πυρός, to preside, have control, over fire, to hold it subject to his will, Revelation 14:18; ἐπί τῶν ὑδάτων, Revelation 11:6; ἐπάνω τίνος ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν, to be ruler over a thing, Luke 19:17.

b. specifically, α. of the power of judicial decision; ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν with an infinitive of the thing decided: σταυρῶσαι and ἀπολῦσαι τινα, John 19:10; followed by κατά τίνος, the power of deciding against one, John 19:11; παραδοῦναι τινα ... τῇ ἐξουσία τοῦ ἡγεμόνος, Luke 20:20. β. of authority to manage domestic affairs: Mark 13:34.

c. metonymically, α. a thing subject to authority or rule: Luke 4:6; jurisdiction: ἐκ τῆς ἐξουσίας ἡδωρου ἐστιν, Luke 23:7 (1 Macc. 6:11 (cf. Psalm 113:2 (); Isaiah 39:2)). β. one who possesses authority; (cf. the Latin use ofhonestates,dignitates,auctoritates (so the English authorities, dignities, etc.) in reference to persons); αα. a ruler, human magistrate (Dionysius Halicarnassus 8, 44; 11, 32): Romans 13:1-3; plural: Luke 12:11; Romans 13:1; Titus 3:1. ββ. the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates; used in the plural of a certain class of angels (see ἀρχή, δύναμις, θρόνος, κυριότης): Colossians 1:16; 1 Peter 3:22 (cf. Fritzsche on Romans, vol. ii., p. 226f; (Lightfoot on Colossians, the passage cited)); with ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις added, Ephesians 3:10; πᾶσα ἐξουσία, 1 Corinthians 15:24; Ephesians 1:21; Colossians 2:10; used also of demons: in the plural, Ephesians 6:12; Colossians 2:15; collectively (cf. Lob. ad Phryn., p. 469), ἡ ἐξουσία τοῦ ἀέρος (see ἀήρ), Ephesians 2:2; τοῦ σκότους, Colossians 1:13 (others refer this to 4 a. (or c. α.) above (cf. Luke 22:53 in 2), and regard σκότος as personified; see σκότος, b.).

d. a sign of the husband's authority over his wife, i. e. the veil with which propriety required a woman to cover herself, 1 Corinthians 11:10 (as βασιλεία is used by Diodorus 1, 47 for the sign of regal power, i. e. a crown). (Synonym: see δύναμις, at the end. On the infinitive after ἐξουσία, and ἐξουσία ἔχειν cf. Buttmann, 260 (223f).)

Word Origin
from exesti
Definition
power to act, authority
NASB Translation
authorities (7), authority (65), charge (1), control (1), domain (2), dominion (1), jurisdiction (1), liberty (1), power (11), powers (1), right (11).
http://biblesuite.com/greek/1849.htm
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« Reply #81 on: December 02, 2012, 03:07:27 AM »

I worked for 5 years with the mentally ill and drug addicts in a professional setting.  I saw how it is not a pragmatic solution, but very much a political one.  Btw, in some ways, the situations of those who imperil others are much easier to "solve."
This is not the answer that I hoped for. I might be more impressed if I hadn't been caring for a mentally ill son for 24 years.  No doubt you have some justification for your statement. What I do not understand is why you would elevate what appears to me to be exceptions to the rule as THE RULE. We perhaps live in different worlds with different situations.
Since I didn't mention any exceptions, perhaps you live in a world with clairvoyance. In which case what appears to you as a rule would be most impressive.

When you force me to present personal anecdotal evidence to counter your presumably impersonal anecdotal evidence, we are both open to the criticism of presenting an exception to the rule. I introduced the notion of exception because it is relevant.  I am not clairvoyant. I am unfortunately one of those people with a frame of mind that personally seems logical, but may be pedantic. Only time will tell. I make no guarantees as to whether I am right or wrong, but I do have a lot of experience in my life to guide my opinion. I hope this guides you as to where I am coming from, so to speak.

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« Reply #82 on: December 02, 2012, 03:22:34 AM »

I actually miss the wide variety of them at CAF.

ps- how you cannot find those yellow circle things scary is beyond me.
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« Reply #83 on: December 02, 2012, 03:28:04 AM »

Gee, Opus...what did emoticons do to you?
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« Reply #84 on: December 02, 2012, 03:33:08 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for the homeless.
Meaning what?
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those in need.
Meaning what?
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those that need clothing and/or starving.
Meaning what?
I do not have a problem with the guaranteed rights part, but I cannot jive the "nor should it be" with Matthew 25:31-46. Am I missing something that clearly counters the Words of Christ?
"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." II Thessalonians 3:10.

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement.  
This is certainly empty rhetoric with no basis on reality.

The dystopia resulting from every utopian scheme shows otherwise.

The War on Poverty has spent trillions over half a century for the poverty rate to remain the same. In fact, the poverty rate had fallen 5% over the 5 years, and falling, before the war was declared, while the decline in benefits show no real correlation over time with the poverty rate.

Of course, what is needed to answer your question is study focused on those who rose out of poverty (and those who fell into it) and what, if any, benefits providing what they wanted or needed played a role in their rise.  And one on what, if any, benefits providing what is wanted or needed sustain a permanent underclass.

This is an insult for all of humanity, which is  unjustifiable in my opinion. There is a lot of good in us, despite our failings.
You assUme everyone is alike.  Such is not the case.
I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”
I did not see glancing attacks on the officer. I saw glancing attacks on us Orthodox Christians not being Orthodox Christians. There is a distinction here that you missed.
I don't recall "late capitalism" nor "petite bourgeoisie" in the confession of Orthodoxy. I must have missed that.

I am personally indebted to the police force here. They have both protected me from harm, prevented my son from doing harm to himself and they have given me good advice which I am following. I am grateful that they do not have your "as it should be" attitude.
There is a distinction here that you missed.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 03:42:43 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #85 on: December 02, 2012, 03:36:08 AM »

I actually miss the wide variety of them at CAF.

ps- how you cannot find those yellow circle things scary is beyond me.
My sister used to have this on her refrigerator

and it always made me chucke.  Still does.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2012, 03:41:28 AM »

I worked for 5 years with the mentally ill and drug addicts in a professional setting.  I saw how it is not a pragmatic solution, but very much a political one.  Btw, in some ways, the situations of those who imperil others are much easier to "solve."
This is not the answer that I hoped for. I might be more impressed if I hadn't been caring for a mentally ill son for 24 years.  No doubt you have some justification for your statement. What I do not understand is why you would elevate what appears to me to be exceptions to the rule as THE RULE. We perhaps live in different worlds with different situations.
Since I didn't mention any exceptions, perhaps you live in a world with clairvoyance. In which case what appears to you as a rule would be most impressive.

When you force me to present personal anecdotal evidence to counter your presumably impersonal anecdotal evidence, we are both open to the criticism of presenting an exception to the rule.

No, we are not. I presented no personal anecdotal evidence.  My impersonal "anecdotal evidence" just reflects the stats-for one, I used to collect them as part of my job.

I introduced the notion of exception because it is relevant.
Only if one wants to make it the rule.

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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #87 on: December 02, 2012, 04:15:49 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.
1. I think the discussion you started with this post is a very important, thought provoking discussion, for which I thank you immensely.
2. I do not believe that this discussion belongs in Politics, regardless of what Isa says.
3. I do believe, however, that you should not have started this debate on a Christian News thread, since the Christian News board is intended solely for the reporting of news. This board is not a place for debate or polemics such as the discussion you started. You could have started a separate thread on the Religious Topics board, one of the most viewed sections of this forum, to discuss the angle you wish to discuss on this story.
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« Reply #88 on: December 02, 2012, 05:07:42 AM »

Housing is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for the homeless.
Quote
Meaning what?
meaning: we should care for the homeless.
Employment is not a guaranteed right, nor should it be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those in need.
Quote
Meaning what?
meaning: we should care for those in need
Clothing and food are not guaranteed rights, nor should they be.
Legally your are perhaps correct, but we should make it a priority to care for those that need clothing and/or starving.
Quote
Meaning what?
meaning: we should make it a priority to care for those that need clothing and/or are starving.

I do not have a problem with the guaranteed rights part, but I cannot jive the "nor should it be" with Matthew 25:31-46. Am I missing something that clearly counters the Words of Christ?
Quote
"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." II Thessalonians 3:10.
This is a fail in my mind. I am not talking about sloth, I am talking about those in need. And most are not slothful. Am I incorrect on this? Does Paul trump the Gospel?

When you provide every single thing a person could want or need in this world, you take about his desire to appreciate it and the drive which fuels achievement.  
This is certainly empty rhetoric with no basis on reality.

Quote
The dystopia resulting from every utopian scheme shows otherwise.
I have not given up on utopian schemes, The best of them in the US were foiled by greed.
Quote
The War on Poverty has spent trillions over half a century for the poverty rate to remain the same. In fact, the poverty rate had fallen 5% over the 5 years, and falling, before the war was declared, while the decline in benefits show no real correlation over time with the poverty rate.
My recollection of this is that the war on poverty was instituted to deal with the situation of Appalachia at the time (I vaguely remember the news reports prior to the war on poverty). Am I wrong about this and has nothing improved? If we are talking about trillions over half a century, how many people are we talking about? In the same studies you haven't explicitly cited, what would have been the outcome if we did not help?
Quote
Of course, what is needed to answer your question is study focused on those who rose out of poverty (and those who fell into it) and what, if any, benefits providing what they wanted or needed played a role in their rise.  And one on what, if any, benefits providing what is wanted or needed sustain a permanent underclass.
I did not ask this question, but it is worthwhile. I would additionally include the opportunity for a living wage in this analysis

This is an insult for all of humanity, which is  unjustifiable in my opinion. There is a lot of good in us, despite our failings.
Quote
You assUme everyone is alike.  Such is not the case.
Yes I do, including you and me.
I see glancing attacks of this officer, who did a kind and noble thing for no other reason than it was the right thing to do, but have we even considered how this man found himself homeless and shoeless?  I am not saying he isn’t worthy of compassion, not at all, just perhaps he may be there out of his own making and choices, or even desire.  This could be the result of anything from drugs destroying his life to a modern version of “My Man Godfrey.”
I did not see glancing attacks on the officer. I saw glancing attacks on us Orthodox Christians not being Orthodox Christians. There is a distinction here that you missed.

Quote
I don't recall "late capitalism" nor "petite bourgeoisie" in the confession of Orthodoxy. I must have missed that.
I have know idea where this is coming from and with the exception of the term "capitalism" and "Orthodoxy", I am at a loss as to what you are referring to.
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« Reply #89 on: December 02, 2012, 05:22:26 AM »

Weird that people are getting so caught up in giving a HOMEless man shoes rather than a home.

If this is what passes as noteworthy charity in minds of folks today, then we are worse off than I thought.

And more evidence for my positions in the private forums.

Feel free to go back to your ideological bandwagon now.
1. I think the discussion you started with this post is a very important, thought provoking discussion, for which I thank you immensely.
2. I do not believe that this discussion belongs in Politics, regardless of what Isa says.
3. I do believe, however, that you should not have started this debate on a Christian News thread, since the Christian News board is intended solely for the reporting of news. This board is not a place for debate or polemics such as the discussion you started. You could have started a separate thread on the Religious Topics board, one of the most viewed sections of this forum, to discuss the angle you wish to discuss on this story.

Just to note. If I had to read every post that was posted while I was writing, which usually takes me hours (unfortunately), I would not be able to participate in this forum. This is just to signify that I knew there was a new post that I necessarily ignored. And yes, one sentence per hour is not unusual for me.
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« Reply #90 on: December 02, 2012, 06:06:47 AM »

It saddens me to see this thread spiral into some unrealistic, impractical expectation of society being forced to soothe the multitudes that have no desire to help themselves, ignoring the hundreds of programs in almost every city across this country designed to get people back on their feet if they want to be there.   I have no problem helping a poor unfortunate soul in desperate need, as long as that person is willing to do their part to help themself.  On the other side, I find it inexcusable for someone to expect me to give a handout to someone who will squander it and demand more.  This is based on the ever increasing rise of people on government programs that never seem able to get off of said programs, creating an entitlement society as well as a society unable to support itself.  It makes us weak.

This officer did a good thing and rather than focus on that, people want to know why more wasn’t done.  Shame on you!  The example he set IS the example we should follow, yes, as Orthodox Christians.  All of the pomposity spewed here is meaningless diatribe floating down from the perches from whence it was loosed, like acid rain.  He, the officer, went out of his way, used his own personal resources, to do a kind thing for a fellow human being, who surely appreciated the gesture, but most likely will in no way lift himself up to a higher place as a result.  This certainly should not deter someone who wishes to give in such a way, certainly not, but reality is reality and each person should be aware of it at all times.  So, back to the officers’ actions...  This is how Christians should help each other.  Out of the kindness of their heart, out of the duty they feel as a Christian, without some “higher” social value attached to that action.  This is the way it should be done, as we each have the ability and desire to do, NOT through government sources, NOT through higher taxes funding programs none of us want to support, but from the bottom up.  The top down has never worked and never will.  History demonstrations this, clearly.

So, if you are able and willing to open your home, go for it, but DO NOT chastise someone else who doesn’t, like me.  (I will not open my home to someone I do not know because I know what people are capable of and have no intention of placing my family at risk for some social experiment.)  That places you in the position of conducting yourself in a non-Christian fashion and teeters on hypocrisy.  I find it most interesting those who usually do this are the first to demand no one cast judgment on them.  In any event, focus on the good deed done for the proper reason and go from there, on your own path, without pointing fingers at others for “not doing enough”, even though we, collectively, do more for humanity in charity that the rest of the world combined.  
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« Reply #91 on: December 02, 2012, 09:12:32 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
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« Reply #92 on: December 02, 2012, 09:16:27 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.

Well said.
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« Reply #93 on: December 02, 2012, 09:20:36 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
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« Reply #94 on: December 02, 2012, 09:32:02 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
What is poverty, Peter?
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« Reply #95 on: December 02, 2012, 10:11:04 PM »


"Kindess" is lovely fleeting feeling people like to have once in a while. You can still have that.


Chrestotes (Kindness) is actually one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.  Watch for my book analysis of "The Inner River" by Dr. Kyriacos Markides in Reviews where I'll have much more to say about it.
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« Reply #96 on: December 02, 2012, 10:13:01 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
What is poverty, Peter?
How do you define it? Ultimately, I'm only addressing That person's and your definition of poverty, since you're the ones calling it our job to alleviate poverty.
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« Reply #97 on: December 02, 2012, 10:24:38 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
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« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2012, 11:18:37 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.

Well said.
Thanks. While it's been interesting, I really don't have much of a horse in this debate, but I thought I should clarify things for people who struggle in reading comprehension.
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« Reply #99 on: December 02, 2012, 11:20:00 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more.
Uh, huh.... Roll Eyes (sorry Opus).
Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues
ah, there you go again alleging such issues and then assUme conclusions from them.

And again, if Officer DiPrimo had shot Mr. Hillman, no doubt the ensuring hysteria would be taken as focusing us on "massive systemic issues."

that allow poverty like this
like what?

to exist in America.
Oh, did they pass some ban on poverty here that I missed?

It's a reasonable point I think.
You thought wrong.

There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.
It is a bad thing to ask what are the names of these alleged nations?

In fact, I don't know of a single nation that adequately feed and clothe their populations.  Most populations, wealthy or less wealthy, feed and clothe themselves.  As it should be.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States
it is, when all is said and done, the only thing that has.
and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that.
the idea is that, being contagious, it wouldn't be limited to "one action."
We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Oh, and what "grander picture" would that be?
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« Reply #100 on: December 02, 2012, 11:20:43 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.

Well said.
Thanks. While it's been interesting, I really don't have much of a horse in this debate, but I thought I should clarify things for people who struggle in reading comprehension.
how about those who can read between the lines?
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« Reply #101 on: December 02, 2012, 11:33:30 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
This is actually a great point.  America's idea of poverty is rich in comparison to the rest of the world.  All the things we THINK we need, we really don't.  Earthly possessions are not a right and few things do we actually need.  

In this country, the first step in eliminating poverty is for people to stop being lazy.  When that happens, we can talk about other potential issues.
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« Reply #102 on: December 02, 2012, 11:37:53 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.

If he never had money, how was Judas the Treasurer?
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« Reply #103 on: December 02, 2012, 11:45:23 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
This is actually a great point.  America's idea of poverty is rich in comparison to the rest of the world.  All the things we THINK we need, we really don't.  Earthly possessions are not a right and few things do we actually need.  

In this country, the first step in eliminating poverty is for people to stop being lazy.  When that happens, we can talk about other potential issues.
Stop talking out of your butt please.

My father was on the verge of poverty because he couldn't get a job to sustain himself, his wife, my sister and his mother. He had sent out hundreds of applications and only a few interviews were given (He has the applications to prove it too, I mean it's stacked. Plus he tracks this sort of thing on Excel).

After 2 years of searching, he finally got a really nice job and averted potential poverty.

Don't give me this BS about how people need to stop being lazy. There are PLENTY of people who want to find work but none are there.

Also, there are plenty of folks based in social circumstances that cannot have good enough employment to not be in poverty. There really isn't such a thing called social mobility anymore, its a myth.

You don't even know what poverty is dude.

Seriously that post makes me furious.
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« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2012, 11:49:29 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
This is actually a great point.  America's idea of poverty is rich in comparison to the rest of the world.  All the things we THINK we need, we really don't.  Earthly possessions are not a right and few things do we actually need.  
It's funny, as often as I hear this sort of drip, it's never been from anyone who's actually experienced poverty. Just an observation. And yeah, I've personally seen poverty in the developing world. It's deplorable. And you know what? That doesn't do a damn thing to alleviate suffering here. Probably. I'm sure somewhere out there there's a homeless guy with a sadistic streak, happily dreaming of a man in Bangkok who hasn't eaten in three days.

So what, pray tell us, Kerdy, is a right?
Quote
In this country, the first step in eliminating poverty is for people to stop being lazy.  When that happens, we can talk about other potential issues.
Which people exactly? Because I can take this statement in a few ways, one radical, one reasonable, and one simply deplorable. I strongly and sadly suspect you're getting at the latter.

I'll try to get you later, Isa. That depth of quote-warring is a little daunting at the moment.
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« Reply #105 on: December 03, 2012, 12:01:30 AM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.

If he never had money, how was Judas the Treasurer?
Judas, wasn't he the guy who said the nard should have been sold and the money give to the poor?  I guess he was human services secretary as well.
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« Reply #106 on: December 03, 2012, 02:56:09 AM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
This is actually a great point.  America's idea of poverty is rich in comparison to the rest of the world.  All the things we THINK we need, we really don't.  Earthly possessions are not a right and few things do we actually need.  

In this country, the first step in eliminating poverty is for people to stop being lazy.  When that happens, we can talk about other potential issues.
Stop talking out of your butt please.

My father was on the verge of poverty because he couldn't get a job to sustain himself, his wife, my sister and his mother. He had sent out hundreds of applications and only a few interviews were given (He has the applications to prove it too, I mean it's stacked. Plus he tracks this sort of thing on Excel).

After 2 years of searching, he finally got a really nice job and averted potential poverty.

Don't give me this BS about how people need to stop being lazy. There are PLENTY of people who want to find work but none are there.

Also, there are plenty of folks based in social circumstances that cannot have good enough employment to not be in poverty. There really isn't such a thing called social mobility anymore, its a myth.

You don't even know what poverty is dude.

Seriously that post makes me furious.
Sorry you are upset.  That's doesn't mean I'm talking out of my butt.  I grew up poor, but my parents always had a job of some sort until they could get a better one.
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« Reply #107 on: December 03, 2012, 03:10:17 AM »

But seriously, with so much automation and "labor saving" going on, we should be getting a living wage for no more than 30 hours a week.

Seriously, why this expectation of spending so much time "at work" when we keep making ways to do stuff with less people and effort.

The government should provide a guaranteed minimum income. A long term goal of society should be unemployment. Unskilled Labor is cheap and should be voluntary or better yet, automated.

You know I just thought of something, what's the point of rights in general? It's all liberal make-believe stuff that is trotted out every so often for rhetorical purposes. I say we focus on fulfilling concrete needs: food, water, housing, and a greater purpose.

And Kerdy, until you realize that unemployment has nothing to do with a lack of work, and everything to do with a lack of opportunities for profit, get back to me.

To each according to their ability, from each according to their need. No seriously laissez-faire capitalism is a good system guys.
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« Reply #108 on: December 03, 2012, 06:26:04 AM »

But seriously, with so much automation and "labor saving" going on, we should be getting a living wage for no more than 30 hours a week.
Why?  Is there a such thing as an automated plumber?  What about electrician?  Truck driver?

Seriously, why this expectation of spending so much time "at work" when we keep making ways to do stuff with less people and effort.
 
Here is an idea.  Don’t people have to build those things which make work easier?  When was the last time you went to an automated doctor or called for emergency services from an automated paramedic or police officer.  The last time I went to McDonalds, the service persons were real people.


The government should provide a guaranteed minimum income.
 
They do.  It’s called minimum wage.

You know I just thought of something, what's the point of rights in general? It's all liberal make-believe stuff that is trotted out every so often for rhetorical purposes. I say we focus on fulfilling concrete needs: food, water, housing, and a greater purpose.
 
In this country, rights are provided by the constitution.  Those rights can’t be taken away.  All the things you just listed is protected under “The Pursuit of Happiness”.

And Kerdy, until you realize that unemployment has nothing to do with a lack of work, and everything to do with a lack of opportunities for profit, get back to me.
 
You are wrong, period.  Most of the people I have met who are unemployed are in that position because they refuse to do something they don’t like.  I know of an engineer who lost a triple digit paying job and worked part time jobs doing anything he could find to pay the bills and eventually had to move over three states to get a decent job, leaving everything behind.  The work is there.

I admit there are some who sincerely are unable to find a job, any job.  However, they are the exception and what you fail to realize is the exception is not the rule.  If you have one million people addicted to drugs and only two thousand  of them are addicted due to no fault of their own, you don’t use the two thousand as the standard.  

If you read what I wrote, you would have seen where I said the lazy people are where we START, not finish.  As a result of not reading it, you set out into some outburst accusing me of things which are not true at all and saying I have no first-hand knowledge, when I clearly remember my mother regularly skipping meals so we would have enough to eat.  I also remember at some points in my childhood rarely seeing my father and when he was home he was sleeping from taking up any work he could find.  And the best part, I was one of the fortunate ones.  Many people I know had it harder.  I know poverty and getting one pair of pants and one shirt a year that were not hand-me-downs.  But again, my parents took any work that could be found with one purpose, to keep us off government assistance.  This didn’t always happen, but when it did, it was short lived as my mother hated using food stamps and getting welfare cheese/bread/milk, etc.  As I already stated, those programs are designed to help people get back on their feet, not sustain life indefinitely.  

To each according to their ability, from each according to their need. No seriously laissez-faire capitalism is a good system guys.
Capitalism provided some of the greatest advancements and improvements in the history of man.  It’s people that became the problem.  
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 06:29:25 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #109 on: December 03, 2012, 10:46:18 AM »

But seriously, with so much automation and "labor saving" going on, we should be getting a living wage for no more than 30 hours a week.
Why?  Is there a such thing as an automated plumber?  What about electrician?  Truck driver?
No, but there are such things as unions, who determine who get said jobs.  That is, if one has such skills and the opportunity to develop them.
Seriously, why this expectation of spending so much time "at work" when we keep making ways to do stuff with less people and effort.
 
Here is an idea.  Don’t people have to build those things which make work easier?  When was the last time you went to an automated doctor or called for emergency services from an automated paramedic or police officer.  The last time I went to McDonalds, the service persons were real people.
The last one is available, except in a labor glutt like now.  The others involve training, which means time and $$$.

The government should provide a guaranteed minimum income.
 
They do.  It’s called minimum wage.
A lot of people who make minimum wage are overpaid, a consequence of entitlement society.  You would also be surprised how many are not hired because of being overqualified.

You know I just thought of something, what's the point of rights in general? It's all liberal make-believe stuff that is trotted out every so often for rhetorical purposes. I say we focus on fulfilling concrete needs: food, water, housing, and a greater purpose.
 
In this country, rights are provided by the constitution.  Those rights can’t be taken away.  All the things you just listed is protected under “The Pursuit of Happiness”.
Actually, according to what the Declaration of Independence (which you are quoting) says, the Constitution protects rights, it doesn't provide them.  Solicitor General Kaegan was wrong on that.

And Kerdy, until you realize that unemployment has nothing to do with a lack of work, and everything to do with a lack of opportunities for profit, get back to me.
 
You are wrong, period.  Most of the people I have met who are unemployed are in that position because they refuse to do something they don’t like.  I know of an engineer who lost a triple digit paying job and worked part time jobs doing anything he could find to pay the bills and eventually had to move over three states to get a decent job, leaving everything behind.  The work is there.
and with that triple digit job, he had the funds to get there.  Most do not have such reserves.

So there is lack of work, lack of opportunities, and laziness.  Every case is unique, sometimes a combination of all three.

I admit there are some who sincerely are unable to find a job, any job.  However, they are the exception and what you fail to realize is the exception is not the rule.  If you have one million people addicted to drugs and only two thousand  of them are addicted due to no fault of their own, you don’t use the two thousand as the standard.  

If you read what I wrote, you would have seen where I said the lazy people are where we START, not finish.  As a result of not reading it, you set out into some outburst accusing me of things which are not true at all and saying I have no first-hand knowledge, when I clearly remember my mother regularly skipping meals so we would have enough to eat.  I also remember at some points in my childhood rarely seeing my father and when he was home he was sleeping from taking up any work he could find.  And the best part, I was one of the fortunate ones.  Many people I know had it harder.  I know poverty and getting one pair of pants and one shirt a year that were not hand-me-downs.  But again, my parents took any work that could be found with one purpose, to keep us off government assistance.  This didn’t always happen, but when it did, it was short lived as my mother hated using food stamps and getting welfare cheese/bread/milk, etc.  As I already stated, those programs are designed to help people get back on their feet, not sustain life indefinitely.
 
Yes, a hand up, not out.  The way it is set up now, it fosters a way of life.

To each according to their ability, from each according to their need. No seriously laissez-faire capitalism is a good system guys.
Capitalism provided some of the greatest advancements and improvements in the history of man.  It’s people that became the problem.
 
"To each according to their ability, from each according to their need" has failed every time it has been tried.
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« Reply #110 on: December 03, 2012, 12:21:08 PM »

Looks like them shoes went quickly, perhaps to buy some more of those "goodies" on the streets?

OK, you idealists, time to chime in;

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/nyregion/barefoot-homeless-man-says-hes-grateful-for-boots.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&_r=0

Homeless Man Is Grateful for Officer’s Gift of Boots. But He Again Is Barefoot.By MARC SANTORA and ALEX VADUKUL
Published: December 2, 2012

After Officer Lawrence DePrimo knelt beside a barefoot man on a bitterly cold November night in Times Square, giving him a pair of boots, a photo of his random act of good will quickly took on a life of its own — becoming a symbol for a million acts of kindness that go unnoticed every day and a reminder that even in this tough, often anonymous city, people can still look out for one another.

Officer Lawrence DePrimo received widespread news coverage for his generosity, but little was known about the man he helped, Jeffrey Hillman.
Officer DePrimo was celebrated on front pages and morning talk shows, the Police Department came away with a burnished image and millions got a smile from a nice story.

But what of the shoeless man?

The rest of the article can be read by clicking the link above.

Article truncated to first two paragraphs to enforce compliance with forum rules prohibiting the copying and pasting of full-length articles. -PtA

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« Reply #111 on: December 03, 2012, 01:23:04 PM »

Looks like them shoes went quickly, perhaps to buy some more of those "goodies" on the streets?

OK, you idealists, time to chime in;
yeah, I purposely avoided getting too much into the facts of Mr. Hillman's life, to keep the focus on Officer DiPrimo and his alleged shortcomings (telling, perhaps, I don't recall wasting the boots on Mr. Hillman's being brought up as one of them).
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« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2012, 01:17:24 AM »

Given the rambling, stream of affected consciousness nature of your posts, physician, perhaps you might heal thyself
http://www.designsojourn.com/how-to-avoid-mental-masturbation/

When it comes to matters of such masturbation, pardon me if I don't follow the advice of eunuchs.

Wouldn't you, though, as an Orthodox Christian?
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« Reply #113 on: December 04, 2012, 02:08:00 AM »

And Kerdy, until you realize that unemployment has nothing to do with a lack of work, and everything to do with a lack of opportunities for profit, get back to me.
 
You are wrong, period.  Most of the people I have met who are unemployed are in that position because they refuse to do something they don’t like.  I know of an engineer who lost a triple digit paying job and worked part time jobs doing anything he could find to pay the bills and eventually had to move over three states to get a decent job, leaving everything behind.  The work is there.
and with that triple digit job, he had the funds to get there.  Most do not have such reserves.

So there is lack of work, lack of opportunities, and laziness.  Every case is unique, sometimes a combination of all three.


What country/century are we living in where a triple digit paying job can do anything? Five figures barely breaks poverty level, triple figures is peanuts- even if those digits are 999. Unless, of course we are speaking of hourly wage- even then some clarity is needed- $7.25 has three digits.
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« Reply #114 on: December 04, 2012, 11:53:18 AM »

It saddens me that we live in a time when a simple act of charity can be the lightening rod for the explosion of such passion online regarding 'macro' issues which have little to do with the impulsive, natural Christ-like act of the officer in question. The issue is not really the 'worthiness' of the recipient or the issue of poverty in a land of plenty or the plight of those who are either mentally ill or disaffected by society - after all our Saviour also noted that the poor shall always be among us - but it is rather the selfless, Samaritan-like act of the cop that moves us and drives the narrative. I think that his actions are the 'sermon' present in the scenario - and the follow up by others is not unlike the lesson of the talents or the ungrateful servants. As long as we have men and women among us who will respond in a manner like that urged upon us by Christ in Scripture and by the teachings of the Fathers and the Church all is not lost. Lord have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2012, 02:12:43 PM »

You're missing the point. Nobody is criticizing the cop for what he did or even saying he had to do more. Just pointing out that reveling in such simple kindnesses can distract us from the massive systemic issues that allow poverty like this to exist in America. It's a reasonable point I think. There are plenty of nations less wealthy than the US that still manage to adequately feed and clothe their populations, and it's not a bad thing to ask why that is.

Private charity is awesome and all, and far be it from me to belittle any of its practitioners. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough to alleviate poverty in the United States, and no one action, whether you're giving someone loose change or a pair of shoes or a six-figure job, is going to change that. We should commend such actions sure, but being reminded of the grander picture isn't a bad thing.
Did Jesus ever command us to alleviate poverty? No, but He did command us to feed the poor and clothe the naked.
Jesus embraced poverty, he never had a home or a job or money and lived in the streets for the most part. He also said to sell everything you have and follow him if you really want to get to heaven. So somebody show me anywhere where Jesus supported "wealth distribution" or socialism where "homelessness" would be permanently eradicated.
This is actually a great point.  America's idea of poverty is rich in comparison to the rest of the world.  All the things we THINK we need, we really don't.  Earthly possessions are not a right and few things do we actually need.  

In this country, the first step in eliminating poverty is for people to stop being lazy.  When that happens, we can talk about other potential issues.
Stop talking out of your butt please.

My father was on the verge of poverty because he couldn't get a job to sustain himself, his wife, my sister and his mother. He had sent out hundreds of applications and only a few interviews were given (He has the applications to prove it too, I mean it's stacked. Plus he tracks this sort of thing on Excel).

After 2 years of searching, he finally got a really nice job and averted potential poverty.

Don't give me this BS about how people need to stop being lazy. There are PLENTY of people who want to find work but none are there.

Also, there are plenty of folks based in social circumstances that cannot have good enough employment to not be in poverty. There really isn't such a thing called social mobility anymore, its a myth.

You don't even know what poverty is dude.

Seriously that post makes me furious.
You seem to be one of them people who get all "uppidity" about your level of poverty or something, that seems to be the new American past time, who "be the most poh-est" and all that. Let me tell you something, your not poor if you live in this country, bottom line, especially if you don't want to work, this country does nothing but reward sloth and complacency. I can't count how many people I know who are grinding it out every  day on the job and can barely put food on the table and what little money left over is sucked up by the federal, state and local tax theifs to pay for a whole segment of the culture who refuse to pull their weight but have everything paid for them. I know people get some bad breaks in life, i'm one of them, but it's not that bad here yet where you just quit and sit back and wait for big daddy gov't to bail your butt out. and it's just not the poor with this mentality either, this applies to all those fatcats down on Wall St holding hat in hand waiting for the next "stimulus" package.

Americans have lost their edge from the top down, one big Welfare state with the "gimme dat" mentality.
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« Reply #116 on: December 04, 2012, 02:25:06 PM »

It saddens me that we live in a time when a simple act of charity can be the lightening rod for the explosion of such passion online regarding 'macro' issues which have little to do with the impulsive, natural Christ-like act of the officer in question. The issue is not really the 'worthiness' of the recipient or the issue of poverty in a land of plenty or the plight of those who are either mentally ill or disaffected by society - after all our Saviour also noted that the poor shall always be among us - but it is rather the selfless, Samaritan-like act of the cop that moves us and drives the narrative. I think that his actions are the 'sermon' present in the scenario - and the follow up by others is not unlike the lesson of the talents or the ungrateful servants. As long as we have men and women among us who will respond in a manner like that urged upon us by Christ in Scripture and by the teachings of the Fathers and the Church all is not lost. Lord have mercy on us all.

This sounds good but is problematic. Probably won't have much time till the weekend, but I would note as I mentioned above, the poor are not with us anymore, or not with many of us at least. And I would argue that among many abuses of Scripture that one often takes the cake.

And this thread has so much sprawl it is crazy.

It is clear that many different things are being argued and that Isa in his "responses" to me are nothing but strawmen.

Miss a day or so, miss a lot.

And if these are my last words, could someone move them to the appropriate thread.

Thanks.

Maybe, I'll shoot something this weekend, but after either discussing this with people where it is likely to make a difference, I am not sure of the point of shooting any signal into this noise.

Frankly, the responses and misreadings are as telling as anything I could do.

*, this post live up to your criteria?

Not feeling well and very behind in everything in life. It is exactly like last year but different.

I'll try to catch up with PMs, emails, etc. later this week.
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« Reply #117 on: December 04, 2012, 05:53:10 PM »

Well, as someone who's actually been homeless, my two cents :

Government welfare is faceless and unloving, which is why Mother Theresa's disbanded her huge corporate charity bureaucracy to get back to her roots; BUT today communities are so fractured often they cannot provide. So, maybe, at first, state funds controlled by LOCAL communities (The Catholic/Anglican economic ideas of the Red Tories)

Many of my homeless friends, and I myself, really were perversely unwilling to better ourselves. Many were also mentally ill, drug addicted etc
I don't think there is anything intrinsically bad about being poor. My understanding was that the poor are here for us to practice virtue, as persons (another reason impersonal government is not, ultimately, the solution)

At our church, we apparently had alot of trouble getting folks to help out at soup kitchens, since many parishioners were hard working immigrants who refused to help people who often were judged lazy and ungrateful.

BUT, thankfully, I don't have to rely on my fallen opinion. Apparently it doesn't matter if they're lazy or "unworthy" because I am unworthy of life, and Christ has sacrificed Himself regardless ! To give to someone who doesn't "deserve" it is to act like God !  

 From the Great and Most Holy St John Chrysostom, whose mass I celebrate every Sunday :

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into its own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune. God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. . . . A judge is one thing, an almsgiver is another."

"By this we are taught that when we do not show mercy, we will be punished just like those who steal. For our money is the Lord’ s, however we may have gathered it."

"I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor"

“For if you wish to show kindness, you must not require an accounting of a person's life, but merely correct his poverty and fill his need.”

“The poor man has one plea, his want and his standing in need: do not require anything else from him; but even if he is the most wicked of all men and is at a loss for his necessary sustenance, let us free him from hunger.”

“When you see on earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune.”

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”

“Need alone is the poor man's worthiness . . .”

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”
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« Reply #118 on: December 04, 2012, 09:11:41 PM »

You seem to be one of them people who get all "uppidity" about your level of poverty or something, that seems to be the new American past time, who "be the most poh-est" and all that.
I'm not in "poverty".

Furthermore thank you for acknowledging that poverty is clear as mud to you, and the rest of the goonsquad on this board. It's the same stupid talking points day after day which are completely removed from reality.

Quote
Let me tell you something, your not poor if you live in this country, bottom line,
Tell that to the face of millions of Americans that are on the verge of homelessness if they miss out on just one paycheck.

Tell that to the face of millions of Americans who can barely get by on the essentials to survive.

Tell that to the face of those who do not have heat to keep them warm at night.

Tell that to the face of those that go to bed hungry every night because they cannot afford food.

You don't have the balls to do it.

Quote
especially if you don't want to work, this country does nothing but reward sloth and complacency.
And what rewards are we talking about here? Yes how dare the poor get food stamps to actually eat to survive. How dare those poor get a roof over their heads and try to get their lives back in order to get out of poverty, oh wait we have designed the system to not even allow social mobility. Do you realize how hard it is for one person to move classes? It is extremely rare.

You're going to need to change your conception of what "work" actually is in the new few decades. One day we will have the technology that will not require us "to work" anymore.

What do you do, as your profession? Do you "work"? It's like my upper managers, they don't work at all. They get to play golf 3 days a week and get obscene amount of bonus money. Talk about alot of "work" they do.


Quote
I can't count how many people I know who are grinding it out every  day on the job and can barely put food on the table and what little money left over is sucked up by the federal, state and local tax theifs to pay for a whole segment of the culture who refuse to pull their weight but have everything paid for them.
Count me as one of those people that has paid way more than 10 grand in taxes this year. But you know what we need those social programs so if I get screwed out of my job, there is a safety to catch me and get me back on my feet.

People may not have the ability to pull their weight for a ton of reasons. I am fine helping them but I want to do more. I'm glad you have such a low opinion of our fellow man.

Every man is made in the image and likeness of God. The least of what you do to them, the least you do to Him.

Quote
I know people get some bad breaks in life, i'm one of them, but it's not that bad here yet where you just quit and sit back and wait for big daddy gov't to bail your butt out.
How about the ones that get fired over BS? And can't manage to get a job in 2-3 years? "Oh can't get a job, that's too bad have fun dying in that gutter on the street"

Quote
Americans have lost their edge from the top down, one big Welfare state with the "gimme dat" mentality.
Oy vey.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 09:11:58 PM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #119 on: December 04, 2012, 09:15:14 PM »

A lot of people who make minimum wage are overpaid, a consequence of entitlement society.  You would also be surprised how many are not hired because of being overqualified.

Look at this complete and utter disgusting stupidity.

How the hell is 7.50 an hour OVERPAID?!?! And especially since those on minium wage are part time?

You don't see them rolling around in an Escalade, Gucci linens, and pulling up to their mansions

They can't even cobble together 3 of those jobs to even make it. How long would it take a mininum wage worker to afford All Weather boots the police officer provided the homeless man? A long time. I know because I was on minimum wage myself at 6.00 an hour my first job.

And yes they shouldn't be hired if they are overqualified. Too much of a risk with turnover. And you need to give those that do not have the experience yet, to have it.

So you know they never get into poverty.
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« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2012, 01:33:05 AM »

Your not impressing me Achronos. I'm not "moved" by your bleeding heart mentality, I've been working and raising children longer than you've been breathing oxygen, so give it a rest already. I know way too much about this world than you could possibly fathom, don't preach to me about the "poor" or hard times, been there, done that, I know the deal about the real world and I've seen more than my share of scam artists in my time. You see shoeless boy in the OP? I've seen them guys everyday working in the city, it's always the same gaff, the same old tired line, the same ol "brother can you spare a dime" story when I had barely enough to get back on the train to get home after busting my butt at  work and yet, I would , when I could, throw them a bone but when I didn't, I wouldn't and not have a slightest guilt of conscience either way. Whatever. We all make our way in life and determine our own fate in a way, most of us create our own reality or at least the conditions we find our selves in, like the bible says "what ever a man soweth" and all that. But one thing I don't do is play the blame game or try to shame others for their success (or failures) and I certainly don't walk aroung guilt-ridden about the plight of others for whatever reason, I didn't cause it and I'm not certainly going to fix anything. I just do the best I can and move on.

But one thing I don't need is a life-lesson from a still wet-behind-the-ears twenty-something, Internet keyboard warrior for "social justice". i know the reality of the situation out there and whatever your peddling, I'm not buying.

Sorry to dissappoint you.

Oh and don't worry about what work I do, I can assure you I earn my paycheck every week, can you say the same?
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« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2012, 01:52:42 AM »

Well, as someone who's actually been homeless, my two cents :

Government welfare is faceless and unloving, which is why Mother Theresa's disbanded her huge corporate charity bureaucracy to get back to her roots; BUT today communities are so fractured often they cannot provide. So, maybe, at first, state funds controlled by LOCAL communities (The Catholic/Anglican economic ideas of the Red Tories)

Many of my homeless friends, and I myself, really were perversely unwilling to better ourselves. Many were also mentally ill, drug addicted etc
I don't think there is anything intrinsically bad about being poor. My understanding was that the poor are here for us to practice virtue, as persons (another reason impersonal government is not, ultimately, the solution)

At our church, we apparently had alot of trouble getting folks to help out at soup kitchens, since many parishioners were hard working immigrants who refused to help people who often were judged lazy and ungrateful.

BUT, thankfully, I don't have to rely on my fallen opinion. Apparently it doesn't matter if they're lazy or "unworthy" because I am unworthy of life, and Christ has sacrificed Himself regardless ! To give to someone who doesn't "deserve" it is to act like God !  

 From the Great and Most Holy St John Chrysostom, whose mass I celebrate every Sunday :

"The almsgiver is a harbor for those in necessity: a harbor receives all who have encountered shipwreck, and frees them from danger; whether they are bad or good or whatever they are who are in danger, it escorts them into its own shelter. So you likewise, when you see on earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune. God has excused you from all officiousness and meddlesomeness. . . . A judge is one thing, an almsgiver is another."

"By this we are taught that when we do not show mercy, we will be punished just like those who steal. For our money is the Lord’ s, however we may have gathered it."

"I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor"

“For if you wish to show kindness, you must not require an accounting of a person's life, but merely correct his poverty and fill his need.”

“The poor man has one plea, his want and his standing in need: do not require anything else from him; but even if he is the most wicked of all men and is at a loss for his necessary sustenance, let us free him from hunger.”

“When you see on earth the man who has encountered the shipwreck of poverty, do not judge him, do not seek an account of his life, but free him from his misfortune.”

“Charity is so called because we give it even to the unworthy.”

“Need alone is the poor man's worthiness . . .”

“We show mercy on him not because of his virtue but because of his misfortune, in order that we ourselves may receive from the Master His great mercy . . .”


I think we deal with a different demographic makeup, but it does not matter. This is a wonderful post!

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« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2012, 02:18:29 AM »

It saddens me that we live in a time when a simple act of charity can be the lightening rod for the explosion of such passion online regarding 'macro' issues which have little to do with the impulsive, natural Christ-like act of the officer in question. The issue is not really the 'worthiness' of the recipient or the issue of poverty in a land of plenty or the plight of those who are either mentally ill or disaffected by society - after all our Saviour also noted that the poor shall always be among us - but it is rather the selfless, Samaritan-like act of the cop that moves us and drives the narrative. I think that his actions are the 'sermon' present in the scenario - and the follow up by others is not unlike the lesson of the talents or the ungrateful servants. As long as we have men and women among us who will respond in a manner like that urged upon us by Christ in Scripture and by the teachings of the Fathers and the Church all is not lost. Lord have mercy on us all.
Excellent post all around!  Thank you!
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« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2012, 03:18:50 AM »

Your not impressing me Achronos. I'm not "moved" by your bleeding heart mentality, I've been working and raising children longer than you've been breathing oxygen, so give it a rest already. I know way too much about this world than you could possibly fathom, don't preach to me about the "poor" or hard times, been there, done that, I know the deal about the real world and I've seen more than my share of scam artists in my time. You see shoeless boy in the OP? I've seen them guys everyday working in the city, it's always the same gaff, the same old tired line, the same ol "brother can you spare a dime" story when I had barely enough to get back on the train to get home after busting my butt at  work and yet, I would , when I could, throw them a bone but when I didn't, I wouldn't and not have a slightest guilt of conscience either way. Whatever. We all make our way in life and determine our own fate in a way, most of us create our own reality or at least the conditions we find our selves in, like the bible says "what ever a man soweth" and all that. But one thing I don't do is play the blame game or try to shame others for their success (or failures) and I certainly don't walk aroung guilt-ridden about the plight of others for whatever reason, I didn't cause it and I'm not certainly going to fix anything. I just do the best I can and move on.

But one thing I don't need is a life-lesson from a still wet-behind-the-ears twenty-something, Internet keyboard warrior for "social justice". i know the reality of the situation out there and whatever your peddling, I'm not buying.

Sorry to dissappoint you.

Oh and don't worry about what work I do, I can assure you I earn my paycheck every week, can you say the same?

I thought the reply by Achronos to your post was sincere and one of his best posts on the forum. I applaud him for it.

What disturbs me about your attitude is that  you judge the motivation of an entire class of people based on a few examples (either through the news or from some limited personal experience).

Quote
I've been working and raising children longer than you've been breathing oxygen, so give it a rest already. I know way too much about this world than you could possibly fathom, don't preach to me about the "poor" or hard times, been there, done that, I know the deal about the real world and I've seen more than my share of scam artists in my time.

Unless your are 80 years old you do not have that much more experience than me. Scam artists are few and far between. I prefer Achronos's bleeding heart to a dead one. And I am moved by his bleeding heart.

Quote
But one thing I don't do is play the blame game ....

Your posts belie this statement in my opinion.

Quote
But one thing I don't need is a life-lesson from a still wet-behind-the-ears twenty-something, Internet keyboard warrior for "social justice". i know the reality of the situation out there and whatever your peddling, I'm not buying.

This is what sets us apart. I have been teaching twenty-somethings for over 40 years. At the same time I have been learning from twenty-somethings for over 40 years. I can go over this in more detail, but most successful scientists have no qualms about asking twenty-somethings for their advice.

Getting back to my original thought. The post you were complaining about should have been admired.
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« Reply #124 on: December 07, 2012, 10:47:10 AM »

Well I had a draft written to Charles, but I deleted it. I wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone. Just trying to get you to actually open your eyes up to reality. I'm rather tired of the same rhetoric that is parroted without any critical thinking. The fact that I am pointing out deficiencies amongst Christians in regards to ending "poverty" or meeting solvency, says more than it really should.

But what I'm really saying is that unions were necessary in the past but serve no purpose in the modern age. I trust our corporations implicitly to not tear every penny possible out of my flesh and, when I am too run down to work anymore, feed my still breathing body into the furnaces of industry that choke the sky and poison the water. Hail Mammon, Hail.
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« Reply #125 on: December 07, 2012, 11:23:08 AM »

Well I had a draft written to Charles, but I deleted it. I wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone. Just trying to get you to actually open your eyes up to reality. I'm rather tired of the same rhetoric that is parroted without any critical thinking. The fact that I am pointing out deficiencies amongst Christians in regards to ending "poverty" or meeting solvency, says more than it really should.

But what I'm really saying is that unions were necessary in the past but serve no purpose in the modern age. I trust our corporations implicitly to not tear every penny possible out of my flesh and, when I am too run down to work anymore, feed my still breathing body into the furnaces of industry that choke the sky and poison the water. Hail Mammon, Hail.
I see that you haven't defined for us yet what you mean by "poverty".
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« Reply #126 on: December 07, 2012, 11:26:33 AM »

Well I had a draft written to Charles, but I deleted it. I wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone. Just trying to get you to actually open your eyes up to reality. I'm rather tired of the same rhetoric that is parroted without any critical thinking. The fact that I am pointing out deficiencies amongst Christians in regards to ending "poverty" or meeting solvency, says more than it really should.

But what I'm really saying is that unions were necessary in the past but serve no purpose in the modern age. I trust our corporations implicitly to not tear every penny possible out of my flesh and, when I am too run down to work anymore, feed my still breathing body into the furnaces of industry that choke the sky and poison the water. Hail Mammon, Hail.
I see that you haven't defined for us yet what you mean by "poverty".
It doesn't matter how I define it, I am pointing out how it is defined by you and the rest. It doesn't exist, we are all too entitled. Remember, I asked the question first and never got an answer.
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« Reply #127 on: December 07, 2012, 11:32:38 AM »

Well I had a draft written to Charles, but I deleted it. I wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone. Just trying to get you to actually open your eyes up to reality. I'm rather tired of the same rhetoric that is parroted without any critical thinking. The fact that I am pointing out deficiencies amongst Christians in regards to ending "poverty" or meeting solvency, says more than it really should.

But what I'm really saying is that unions were necessary in the past but serve no purpose in the modern age. I trust our corporations implicitly to not tear every penny possible out of my flesh and, when I am too run down to work anymore, feed my still breathing body into the furnaces of industry that choke the sky and poison the water. Hail Mammon, Hail.
I see that you haven't defined for us yet what you mean by "poverty".
It doesn't matter how I define it, I am pointing out how it is defined by you and the rest. It doesn't exist, we are all too entitled. Remember, I asked the question first and never got an answer.
Because how I define "poverty" is irrelevant to my statement that the Gospel doesn't call us to alleviate poverty, a statement I made only in reply to a post by That person. If there's anyone who owes us a definition of the word "poverty", it's That person, not me, since he was the one who implied that it's our job to alleviate it.

But since you asked me, I'm not going to answer your question until you first answer mine. Is that rude? Well, Jesus answered a question with a question.
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« Reply #128 on: December 07, 2012, 12:52:06 PM »


You're all missing the point.

The question here is not WHY they are poor, but, what WE do for them who are poor.

Christ instructed us to LOVE our neighbor, and in doing so, we cannot help but, help them when we see they need ANY kind of help.

He didn't apply a "filter" to whom we should help.

When He said to visit those in prison, He didn't only mean those wrongly accused.  When He said to feed the hungry, He didn't say only those who have been hungry for over a week because they've lost their jobs, but, have tried to find another, and aren't merely lazy, etc.

The shocking thing in this thread is that you are JUDGING who deserves your help and who doesn't.

IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO HELP....THEN DON'T!  But, don't judge the people who are poor.  You have no idea how they came to be where they are today....and perhaps God made them so, SIMPLY TO TEST YOU and your reaction to them.


 
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« Reply #129 on: December 07, 2012, 01:45:22 PM »


You're all missing the point.

The question here is not WHY they are poor, but, what WE do for them who are poor.

Christ instructed us to LOVE our neighbor, and in doing so, we cannot help but, help them when we see they need ANY kind of help.

He didn't apply a "filter" to whom we should help.

When He said to visit those in prison, He didn't only mean those wrongly accused.  When He said to feed the hungry, He didn't say only those who have been hungry for over a week because they've lost their jobs, but, have tried to find another, and aren't merely lazy, etc.

The shocking thing in this thread is that you are JUDGING who deserves your help and who doesn't.

IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO HELP....THEN DON'T!  But, don't judge the people who are poor.  You have no idea how they came to be where they are today....and perhaps God made them so, SIMPLY TO TEST YOU and your reaction to them.
Precisely why I haven't sidetracked on Mr. Hillman's situation in discussion to those who found fault in the OP.
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« Reply #130 on: December 07, 2012, 02:17:46 PM »


You're all missing the point.
Who's missing the point?
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« Reply #131 on: December 07, 2012, 02:26:47 PM »



....the people who are complaining that the poor are only poor because they are lazy....and not availing themselves of the various programs available to them, etc.
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« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2012, 02:28:20 PM »



....the people who are complaining that the poor are only poor because they are lazy....and not availing themselves of the various programs available to them, etc.
To be fair, this didn't come up until those who criticized the motivations of those lending a helping hand and their inadequacies.
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« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2012, 03:58:52 PM »

Let us learn from this man not to call the rich lucky nor the poor unfortunate. Rather, if we are to tell the truth, the rich man is not the one who has collected many possessions but the one who needs few possessions; and the poor man is not the one who has no possessions but the one who has many desires. We ought to consider this the definition of poverty and wealth. So if you see someone greedy for many things, you should consider him the poorest of all, even if he has acquired everyone’s money. If, on the other hand, if you see someone with few needs, you should count him the richest of all, even if he has acquired nothing.

- St. John Chrysostom 

If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs. 

- St. John Chrysostom 

By this we are taught that when we do not show mercy, we will be punished just like those who steal. For our money is the Lord’ s, however we may have gathered it.
- St. John Chrysostom 
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« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2012, 05:11:05 PM »

Well I had a draft written to Charles, but I deleted it. I wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone. Just trying to get you to actually open your eyes up to reality. I'm rather tired of the same rhetoric that is parroted without any critical thinking. The fact that I am pointing out deficiencies amongst Christians in regards to ending "poverty" or meeting solvency, says more than it really should.

But what I'm really saying is that unions were necessary in the past but serve no purpose in the modern age. I trust our corporations implicitly to not tear every penny possible out of my flesh and, when I am too run down to work anymore, feed my still breathing body into the furnaces of industry that choke the sky and poison the water. Hail Mammon, Hail.
I see that you haven't defined for us yet what you mean by "poverty".
It doesn't matter how I define it, I am pointing out how it is defined by you and the rest. It doesn't exist, we are all too entitled. Remember, I asked the question first and never got an answer.
Because how I define "poverty" is irrelevant to my statement that the Gospel doesn't call us to alleviate poverty, a statement I made only in reply to a post by That person. If there's anyone who owes us a definition of the word "poverty", it's That person, not me, since he was the one who implied that it's our job to alleviate it.
This seems decent enough from what I've read. Feel free to offer critique of it.

Also, I'm really curious what Kerdy considers "rights," since that's what a lot of his arguments hinge upon.
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« Reply #135 on: December 07, 2012, 05:46:43 PM »

Well I had a draft written to Charles, but I deleted it. I wasn't trying to impress you nor anyone. Just trying to get you to actually open your eyes up to reality. I'm rather tired of the same rhetoric that is parroted without any critical thinking. The fact that I am pointing out deficiencies amongst Christians in regards to ending "poverty" or meeting solvency, says more than it really should.

But what I'm really saying is that unions were necessary in the past but serve no purpose in the modern age. I trust our corporations implicitly to not tear every penny possible out of my flesh and, when I am too run down to work anymore, feed my still breathing body into the furnaces of industry that choke the sky and poison the water. Hail Mammon, Hail.
I see that you haven't defined for us yet what you mean by "poverty".
It doesn't matter how I define it, I am pointing out how it is defined by you and the rest. It doesn't exist, we are all too entitled. Remember, I asked the question first and never got an answer.
Because how I define "poverty" is irrelevant to my statement that the Gospel doesn't call us to alleviate poverty, a statement I made only in reply to a post by That person. If there's anyone who owes us a definition of the word "poverty", it's That person, not me, since he was the one who implied that it's our job to alleviate it.
This seems decent enough from what I've read. Feel free to offer critique of it.
Quote
How the Census Bureau Measures Poverty
Poverty Thresholds: dollar amounts the Census Bureau uses to determine poverty status
HHS Poverty Guidelines: a different poverty measure, used by the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)
CPS Definitions and Explanations: terms used in Current Population Survey (CPS) reports -- includes many topics, not just poverty
Variables used to construct alternative income definitions [XLS – 21k]
Poverty Definition Applied in the American Community Survey
make up your mind on which one you like, and get back to us.
Also, I'm really curious what Kerdy considers "rights," since that's what a lot of his arguments hinge upon.
Not any more than yours does.
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« Reply #136 on: December 07, 2012, 06:35:08 PM »

Also, I'm really curious what Kerdy considers "rights," since that's what a lot of his arguments hinge upon.
I already addressed this.  Also, this is not a political forum, so I am restricted from going too far into detail, but I will say people toss the word "right" around almost as much as they do "good morning", which has caused it to lose its meaning and value.  Far too many people THINK they have the right to a lot of things, but that is not the case at all. 
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