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Author Topic: what do you think about universalism?  (Read 2507 times) Average Rating: 0
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tweety234
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« Reply #90 on: December 31, 2012, 10:23:03 PM »

I would say that "all are saved" cannot necessarily be equated with "we end up the same". You and I might both be saved, but you might be a lot further along in the process of theosis than I. Thus even if we were all saved, nonetheless cooperation with God and our efforts here on earth wouldn't be for nothing, but would still have a very real benefit, both in this life and in the next.
who cares if you are more holy than everyone else or the other way around? isn't heaven the most subconcient dream of all? I am sure if God accepts us in his kingdom, we will see his total kindness and we will honor him for that.
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« Reply #91 on: December 31, 2012, 10:29:18 PM »

If you believe that we grow closer to God for all eternity, it does matter.

What you are saying would be like saying "Who cares what cut of beef I get? It's all from the same place!" Two different cuts might nourish you enough to keep you alive, but there is still a difference.

EDIT--I should not have said that Sad   It's more like marriage--you don't do stuff because you expect a reward, but because you want to, because you want to grow closer, because you love them and it makes you and then happy, etc.
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« Reply #92 on: January 01, 2013, 01:45:42 PM »

Keep in mind the Eastern Paradigm that The Church is where you are healed and transformed. Salvation is not guaranteed by contract. It is a process.

That being the case the doctrine of No Salvation Outside The Church can be compared to military training. Can you be put into intense combat with no training? Could you have been put into the first wave ashore at Normandy with no basic training and survive?  Can you make it if you dont know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, how to take proper cover and if you are out of shape? It's possible but not very likely.

If you think of the after life in terms of nearness or distance from God it may be that you will not be able to be close to God if you are not prepared. It may be too intense.

The doctrine of no salvation outside the Church  has nothing to with being mean to people who are not part of the Church. It may just be sage wisdom.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 01:46:48 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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tweety234
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« Reply #93 on: January 01, 2013, 09:48:45 PM »

Keep in mind the Eastern Paradigm that The Church is where you are healed and transformed. Salvation is not guaranteed by contract. It is a process.

That being the case the doctrine of No Salvation Outside The Church can be compared to military training. Can you be put into intense combat with no training? Could you have been put into the first wave ashore at Normandy with no basic training and survive?  Can you make it if you dont know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, how to take proper cover and if you are out of shape? It's possible but not very likely.

If you think of the after life in terms of nearness or distance from God it may be that you will not be able to be close to God if you are not prepared. It may be too intense.

The doctrine of no salvation outside the Church  has nothing to with being mean to people who are not part of the Church. It may just be sage wisdom.



By intense what do you mean?
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tweety234
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« Reply #94 on: January 01, 2013, 09:51:03 PM »

If you believe that we grow closer to God for all eternity, it does matter.

What you are saying would be like saying "Who cares what cut of beef I get? It's all from the same place!" Two different cuts might nourish you enough to keep you alive, but there is still a difference.

EDIT--I should not have said that Sad   It's more like marriage--you don't do stuff because you expect a reward, but because you want to, because you want to grow closer, because you love them and it makes you and then happy, etc.

I like the beef part though. It was funny. But we shouldn't compare God with a beef. It isn't fair.
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« Reply #95 on: January 01, 2013, 09:56:17 PM »

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I wanted to take it back. After posting it I suddenly thought to myself: "Wait, did I just compare our relationship with God to picking meat?"  Shocked  Noooooooo!
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« Reply #96 on: January 01, 2013, 09:57:37 PM »

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I wanted to take it back. After posting it I suddenly thought to myself: "Wait, did I just compare our relationship with God to picking meat?"  Shocked  Noooooooo!

Well, I like burgers.

God is not to be compared to burgers, true. But I like burgers.
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« Reply #97 on: January 01, 2013, 10:08:31 PM »

Keep in mind the Eastern Paradigm that The Church is where you are healed and transformed. Salvation is not guaranteed by contract. It is a process.

That being the case the doctrine of No Salvation Outside The Church can be compared to military training. Can you be put into intense combat with no training? Could you have been put into the first wave ashore at Normandy with no basic training and survive?  Can you make it if you dont know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, how to take proper cover and if you are out of shape? It's possible but not very likely.

If you think of the after life in terms of nearness or distance from God it may be that you will not be able to be close to God if you are not prepared. It may be too intense.

The doctrine of no salvation outside the Church  has nothing to with being mean to people who are not part of the Church. It may just be sage wisdom.



By intense what do you mean?

Overwhelming.. Too much to bare if you are not prepared for it
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tweety234
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« Reply #98 on: January 01, 2013, 10:12:28 PM »

Keep in mind the Eastern Paradigm that The Church is where you are healed and transformed. Salvation is not guaranteed by contract. It is a process.

That being the case the doctrine of No Salvation Outside The Church can be compared to military training. Can you be put into intense combat with no training? Could you have been put into the first wave ashore at Normandy with no basic training and survive?  Can you make it if you dont know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, how to take proper cover and if you are out of shape? It's possible but not very likely.

If you think of the after life in terms of nearness or distance from God it may be that you will not be able to be close to God if you are not prepared. It may be too intense.

The doctrine of no salvation outside the Church  has nothing to with being mean to people who are not part of the Church. It may just be sage wisdom.



By intense what do you mean?

Overwhelming.. Too much to bare if you are not prepared for it

how overwhelming? did you  have a personal experience?
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« Reply #99 on: January 01, 2013, 10:36:26 PM »

This was written by St. Mark of Ephesus:

St. Mark further explains the state of the departed in this way: "We affirm that neither the righteous have as yet received the fullness of their lot and that blessed condition for which they have prepared themselves here through works, nor have sinners, after death, been led away into the eternal punishment in which they shall be tormented eternally. Rather, both the one and the other must necessarily take place after the Judgment of that last day and the resurrection of all. Now, however, both the one and the other are in places proper to them: the first, in absolute repose and free, are in heaven with the angels and before God Himself, and already as if in Paradise from which Adam fell and often visit us in those temples where they are venerated, and hear those who call on them and pray for them to God, having received from Him this surpassing gift, and through their relics perform miracles and take delight in the vision of God and the illumination sent from Him more perfectly and purely than before, when they were alive; while the second, in their turn, being confined to hell, remain in 'the lowest pit, in darkness and in the shadow of death' (Ps 87:7), as David says, and then Job: 'to the land where the light is darkness' (Job 10:21-22). And the first remain in every joy and rejoicing, already expecting and only not having in their hands the Kingdom and the unutterable good things promised them; and the second, on the contrary, remain in all confinement and inconsolable suffering, like condemned men awaiting the Judge's sentence and foreseeing the torments. Neither have the first yet received the inheritance of the Kingdom and those good things 'which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man' (1 Cor 2:9); nor have the second part yet been given over to eternal torments nor to burning in the unquenchable fire. And this teaching we have as handed down from our Fathers in antiquity and we can easily present it from the Divine Scriptures themselves."

http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/lifeafterdeath.aspx
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tweety234
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« Reply #100 on: January 01, 2013, 11:33:48 PM »

This was written by St. Mark of Ephesus:

St. Mark further explains the state of the departed in this way: "We affirm that neither the righteous have as yet received the fullness of their lot and that blessed condition for which they have prepared themselves here through works, nor have sinners, after death, been led away into the eternal punishment in which they shall be tormented eternally. Rather, both the one and the other must necessarily take place after the Judgment of that last day and the resurrection of all. Now, however, both the one and the other are in places proper to them: the first, in absolute repose and free, are in heaven with the angels and before God Himself, and already as if in Paradise from which Adam fell and often visit us in those temples where they are venerated, and hear those who call on them and pray for them to God, having received from Him this surpassing gift, and through their relics perform miracles and take delight in the vision of God and the illumination sent from Him more perfectly and purely than before, when they were alive; while the second, in their turn, being confined to hell, remain in 'the lowest pit, in darkness and in the shadow of death' (Ps 87:7), as David says, and then Job: 'to the land where the light is darkness' (Job 10:21-22). And the first remain in every joy and rejoicing, already expecting and only not having in their hands the Kingdom and the unutterable good things promised them; and the second, on the contrary, remain in all confinement and inconsolable suffering, like condemned men awaiting the Judge's sentence and foreseeing the torments. Neither have the first yet received the inheritance of the Kingdom and those good things 'which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man' (1 Cor 2:9); nor have the second part yet been given over to eternal torments nor to burning in the unquenchable fire. And this teaching we have as handed down from our Fathers in antiquity and we can easily present it from the Divine Scriptures themselves."

http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/lifeafterdeath.aspx

confused.
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« Reply #101 on: January 14, 2013, 09:09:04 AM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?

All ideas are equally true and all will be saved. I believe neither to be true.
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« Reply #102 on: January 14, 2013, 09:19:06 AM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?

All ideas are equally true and all will be saved. I believe neither to be true.

It sure would be nice if they they were true, but they, of course, are not.
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« Reply #103 on: January 14, 2013, 10:14:39 AM »

I'm just a kid, I don't have many opinions on things like this that have solid foundations.  I can get behind a bit of universalism.  For example, I don't believe Ghandi will go to hell for not being a Christian, or that Mother Therese will go to hell for not being Orthodox.  I think that all have a chance of being saved, but it's somehow more direct for Christians.

That's my thought.  I don't agree with total universalism at all.  I believe very much in the OT concept of Olem Haba (picked that one up at the synagogue,) where we will all go and be with God when we die.  Those who loved and served Him will experience pure bliss, and those that hated him will experience pain.  I find this much easier to understand, so it's what I think of when I think of the "hereafter." 

The way I see it, Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the light (as he told us,) and no one comes to the Father except through Him.  Surely, though, if a non-Christian lived a life of charity, tolerance, and love, God will look upon that person with love and compassion (after all, His mercy endures forever.)

But I'm no theologian...
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« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2013, 10:41:22 AM »

The way I see it, Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the light (as he told us,) and no one comes to the Father except through Him.  Surely, though, if a non-Christian lived a life of charity, tolerance, and love, God will look upon that person with love and compassion (after all, His mercy endures forever.)

Amen to that! Well said
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« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2013, 04:31:03 PM »

I'm just a kid, I don't have many opinions on things like this that have solid foundations.  I can get behind a bit of universalism.  For example, I don't believe Ghandi will go to hell for not being a Christian, or that Mother Therese will go to hell for not being Orthodox.  I think that all have a chance of being saved, but it's somehow more direct for Christians.

That's my thought.  I don't agree with total universalism at all.  I believe very much in the OT concept of Olem Haba (picked that one up at the synagogue,) where we will all go and be with God when we die.  Those who loved and served Him will experience pure bliss, and those that hated him will experience pain.  I find this much easier to understand, so it's what I think of when I think of the "hereafter." 

The way I see it, Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the light (as he told us,) and no one comes to the Father except through Him.  Surely, though, if a non-Christian lived a life of charity, tolerance, and love, God will look upon that person with love and compassion (after all, His mercy endures forever.)

But I'm no theologian...
.


I agree with your comments. Especially the last part. After all, Jesus along with something else, said: blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. If he is telling the truth as we believe. Then this refers to everyone that he considered merciful and kind.
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« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2013, 09:51:42 PM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?

All ideas are equally true and all will be saved. I believe neither to be true.
The first part certainly doesn't jive with the thought of most Christian universalists with whom I'm familiar.
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« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2013, 09:58:30 PM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?

All ideas are equally true and all will be saved. I believe neither to be true.
The first part certainly doesn't jive with the thought of most Christian universalists with whom I'm familiar.

OK, well if you know of a different overall understanding, please share
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