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Author Topic: what do you think about universalism?  (Read 2713 times) Average Rating: 0
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tweety234
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« on: November 29, 2012, 07:13:02 PM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 08:20:55 PM »

what exactly is this thing?

All religions are basically the same.

Quote
Do you believe this theory.?

No.
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 09:02:05 PM »

what exactly is this thing?

All religions are basically the same.

Wut?
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 09:06:46 PM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?
There are different types of universalism.

One universalism theory states that it is possible that all may be saved. This universalism is perfectly acceptable in Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).

Another universalism theory states that it is a definite reality that all will be saved. This universalism is rejected by Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 09:41:34 PM »

Wut?

Unless I misunderstood the question, which is possible.
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2012, 09:53:07 PM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?
There are different types of universalism.

One universalism theory states that it is possible that all may be saved. This universalism is perfectly acceptable in Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).

Another universalism theory states that it is a definite reality that all will be saved. This universalism is rejected by Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).


Not all may be saved, it is part of Divine Revelation that people such as Core and his followers were swallowed up into hell.

That is unless you mean that God provides sufficient grace to all to be saved?
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2012, 09:57:48 PM »

Wut?

Unless I misunderstood the question, which is possible.

Sorry, I was just confused, I should have said more than that! Smiley  I thought the universalism was the salvation kind of thing he was asking about, not the universalism as in uber-ecumenical, let's-all-get-along stuff.

As for myself, I lose hope daily that all (or even many) can be saved...
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2012, 10:21:57 PM »

Holding out the possibility that all may be saved was one of the things that helped me convert to Orthodoxy. I remember flipping to the chapter on Hell and Judgement immediately after I was given my catechism book, to see what the Church's views were. I was greatly comforted that so many Fathers hoped for this as well. It was refreshing, coming from an evangelical background where everyone was basically already saved or damned.
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2012, 10:59:27 PM »

Wut?

Unless I misunderstood the question, which is possible.

Sorry, I was just confused, I should have said more than that! Smiley  I thought the universalism was the salvation kind of thing he was asking about, not the universalism as in uber-ecumenical, let's-all-get-along stuff.

As for myself, I lose hope daily that all (or even many) can be saved...


Why are you losing hope about that? All can be saved. But it doesn't mean that they will, or that we will for that matter.
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2012, 11:01:20 PM »

Holding out the possibility that all may be saved was one of the things that helped me convert to Orthodoxy. I remember flipping to the chapter on Hell and Judgement immediately after I was given my catechism book, to see what the Church's views were. I was greatly comforted that so many Fathers hoped for this as well. It was refreshing, coming from an evangelical background where everyone was basically already saved or damned.

saved or damned, before they even finish their lives? interesting.
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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2012, 11:03:28 PM »

Holding out the possibility that all may be saved was one of the things that helped me convert to Orthodoxy. I remember flipping to the chapter on Hell and Judgement immediately after I was given my catechism book, to see what the Church's views were. I was greatly comforted that so many Fathers hoped for this as well. It was refreshing, coming from an evangelical background where everyone was basically already saved or damned.

saved or damned, before they even finish their lives? interesting.

Calvinists  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2012, 11:14:10 PM »

Universalism = hogwash/humbug/phooey

The modern application of universalism has turned into a touchy feel-good, everything is ok, idea of what religion should be and it doesn’t work.

Ever seen these bumper stickers?  

 

 
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2012, 11:17:34 PM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2012, 11:23:55 PM »

Universalism = hogwash/humbug/phooey

The modern application of universalism has turned into a touchy feel-good, everything is ok, idea of what religion should be and it doesn’t work.

Ever seen these bumper stickers?  

 

 



I love this banner.
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2012, 11:29:39 PM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.

there is another theory, that jesus never existed. I don't  believe this theory to be honest. But then again, do we have any evidence of his existence, from anyone other than religious people?
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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2012, 11:34:33 PM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.

there is another theory, that jesus never existed. I don't  believe this theory to be honest. But then again, do we have any evidence of his existence, from anyone other than religious people?
Someone who makes this claim is either willfully ignorant or, well; I try to be a nice so I can’t say much else about this type of person.  I will say to make this claim a person ignores A LOT!  Sort of like ignoring George Washington existed, Julius Caesar existed, that sort of thing.  But since when has this kept people from being ignorant about God?  I suppose if you ignore everything you would come to that conclusion.
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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2012, 11:37:08 PM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about...why am I not surprised?
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« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2012, 11:40:30 PM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about...why am I not surprised?

Interesting you say this since I pulled it directly from one of my college course books.  I'll inform the academic world they are wrong and you are correct.  I can quote it word for word if you like.

I’m not sure what your beef is or why you have the uncontrollable desire to argue with my posts with your “I know you are, but what am I” mentality, but it’s sort of tiresome and juvenile.  Just thought you should know.  Sort of boring too.
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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2012, 11:42:48 PM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about...why am I not surprised?

Interesting you say this since I pulled it directly from one of my college course books.  I'll inform the academic world they are wrong and you are correct.  I can quote it word for word if you like.

I’m not sure what your beef is or why you have the uncontrollable desire to argue with my posts with your “I know you are, but what am I” mentality, but it’s sort of tiresome and juvenile.  Just thought you should know.  Sort of boring too.

What college did you go to that had the audacity to utilize a text book saying that universalism denies a need for atonement, salvation, or Jesus?
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« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2012, 11:47:22 PM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about...why am I not surprised?

Interesting you say this since I pulled it directly from one of my college course books.  I'll inform the academic world they are wrong and you are correct.  I can quote it word for word if you like.

I’m not sure what your beef is or why you have the uncontrollable desire to argue with my posts with your “I know you are, but what am I” mentality, but it’s sort of tiresome and juvenile.  Just thought you should know.  Sort of boring too.

What college did you go to that had the audacity to utilize a text book saying that universalism denies a need for atonement, salvation, or Jesus?
What difference does it make?  You obviously are smarter than the entire collective of the religion department of that university.  Your definition is all that matters.
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« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2012, 11:49:57 PM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about...why am I not surprised?

Interesting you say this since I pulled it directly from one of my college course books.  I'll inform the academic world they are wrong and you are correct.  I can quote it word for word if you like.

I’m not sure what your beef is or why you have the uncontrollable desire to argue with my posts with your “I know you are, but what am I” mentality, but it’s sort of tiresome and juvenile.  Just thought you should know.  Sort of boring too.

What college did you go to that had the audacity to utilize a text book saying that universalism denies a need for atonement, salvation, or Jesus?
What difference does it make?  You obviously are smarter than the entire collective of the religion department of that university.  Your definition is all that matters.

If that was what your college's religion department taught, then yes, I am smarter than "the entire collective" of them.
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« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2012, 11:50:14 PM »

Why are you losing hope about that? All can be saved. But it doesn't mean that they will, or that we will for that matter.

Gates and narrow ways and all that stuff. Also, I will hear about a quote in a saint that seems to indicate that they hope for all to be saved, but then when I actually go and read that saint's writings/sayings (not just the isolated quote) I get a very different picture about what mindset they indicate we should have, or what will actually happen. There's always hope though I suppose...
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2012, 12:03:15 AM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about...why am I not surprised?

Interesting you say this since I pulled it directly from one of my college course books.  I'll inform the academic world they are wrong and you are correct.  I can quote it word for word if you like.

I’m not sure what your beef is or why you have the uncontrollable desire to argue with my posts with your “I know you are, but what am I” mentality, but it’s sort of tiresome and juvenile.  Just thought you should know.  Sort of boring too.

What college did you go to that had the audacity to utilize a text book saying that universalism denies a need for atonement, salvation, or Jesus?
What difference does it make?  You obviously are smarter than the entire collective of the religion department of that university.  Your definition is all that matters.

If that was what your college's religion department taught, then yes, I am smarter than "the entire collective" of them.

It must be nice. 

Now back to our regularly scheduled, "What Do You Think" thread.

For that, I turn it over to our onsite correspondent.  Bob, are you there? 
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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2012, 12:17:28 AM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about...why am I not surprised?

would you like to share your theory rather than arguing with the other person? Thanks. Because I am interested.
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« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2012, 12:23:29 AM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about...why am I not surprised?

would you like to share your theory rather than arguing with the other person? Thanks. Because I am interested.

Well for starters, there's absolutely no reason to think that someone who believes all will be saved dismisses the saving work of Christ.
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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2012, 12:34:00 AM »

Having said that, true Universalism is the idea that everyone is a child of God and everyone is going to heaven, which is also hogwash as it denies the need for atonement and stating there is no need of salvation.  Basically, it says Jesus wasted his time and died for nothing.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about...why am I not surprised?

would you like to share your theory rather than arguing with the other person? Thanks. Because I am interested.

Well for starters, there's absolutely no reason to think that someone who believes all will be saved dismisses the saving work of Christ.


Sure, since salvation is the work of Christ anyway.
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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2012, 12:59:38 AM »

Let us examine what the Church had to say about Universalism with Origen.
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« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2012, 01:08:39 AM »

Let us examine what the Church had to say about Universalism with Origen.

Ok, go ahead Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2012, 01:20:15 AM »

Let us examine what the Church had to say about Universalism with Origen.

5th EC
Quote
The Anathemas Against Origen.

I.
If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it:  let him be anathema.

II.
If anyone shall say that the creation (τὴυ παραγωγὴν) of all reasonable things includes only intelligences (νόας) without bodies and altogether immaterial, having neither number nor name, so that there is unity between them all by identity of substance, force and energy, and by their union with and knowledge of God the Word; but that no longer desiring the sight of God, they gave themselves over to worse things, each one following his own inclinations, and that they have taken bodies more or less subtile, and have received names, for among the heavenly Powers there is a difference of names as there is also a difference of bodies; and thence some became and are called Cherubims, others Seraphims, and Principalities, and Powers, and Dominations, and Thrones, and Angels, and as many other heavenly orders as there may be:  let him be anathema.
III.
If anyone shall say that the sun, the moon and the stars are also reasonable beings, and that they have only become what they are because they turned towards evil:  let him be anathema.
IV.
If anyone shall say that the reasonable creatures in whom the divine love had grown cold have been hidden in gross bodies such as ours, and have been called men, while those who have attained the lowest degree of wickedness have shared cold and obscure bodies and are become and called demons and evil spirits:  let him be anathema,.
V.
If anyone shall say that a psychic (ψυχικὴν) condition has come from an angelic or archangelic state, and moreover that a demoniac and a human condition has come from a psychic condition, and that from a human state they may become again angels and demons, and that each order of heavenly virtues is either all from those below or from those above, or from those above and below:  let him be anathema.
VI.
If anyone shall say that there is a twofold race of demons, of which the one includes the souls of men and the other the superior spirits who fell to this, and that of all the number of reasonable beings there is but one which has remained unshaken in the love and contemplation of God, and that that spirit is become Christ and the king of all reasonable beings, and that he has created318 all the bodies which exist in heaven, on earth, and between heaven and earth; and that the world which has in itself elements more ancient than itself, and which exists by themselves, viz.:  dryness, damp, heat and cold, and the image (ιδέαν) to which it was formed, was so formed, and that the most holy and consubstantial Trinity did not create the world, but that it was created by the working intelligence (Νοῦς δημιρυργός) which is more ancient than the world, and which communicates to it its being:  let him be anathema.
VII.
If anyone shall say that Christ, of whom it is said that he appeared in the form of God, and that he was united before all time with God the Word, and humbled himself in these last days even to humanity, had (according to their expression) pity upon the divers falls which had appeared in the spirits united in the same unity (of which he himself is part), and that to
319
restore them he passed through divers classes, had different bodies and different names, became all to all, an Angel among Angels, a Power among Powers, has clothed himself in the different classes of reasonable beings with a form corresponding to that class, and finally has taken flesh and blood like ours and is become man for men; [if anyone says all this] and does not profess that God the Word humbled himself and became man:  let him be anathema.
VIII.
If anyone shall not acknowledge that God the Word, of the same substance with the Father and the Holy Ghost, and who was made flesh and became man, one of the Trinity, is Christ in every sense of the word, but [shall affirm] that he is so only in an inaccurate manner, and because of the abasement (κενώσαντα), as they call it, of the intelligence (νοῦς); if anyone shall affirm that this intelligence united (συνημμένον ) to God the Word, is the Christ in the true sense of the word, while the Logos is only called Christ because of this union with the intelligence, and e converso that the intelligence is only called God because of the Logos:  let him be anathema.
IX.
If anyone shall say that it was not the Divine Logos made man by taking an animated body with a ψυχὴ῾ λογικὴ and νοερὰ, that he descended into hell and ascended into heaven, but shall pretend that it is the Νοῦς which has done this, that Νοῦς of which they say (in an impious fashion) he is Christ properly so called, and that he is become so by the knowledge of the Monad:  let him be anathema.
X.
If anyone shall say that after the resurrection the body of the Lord was ethereal, having the form of a sphere, and that such shall be the bodies of all after the resurrection; and that after the Lord himself shall have rejected his true body and after the others who rise shall have rejected theirs, the nature of their bodies shall be annihilated:  let him be anathema.
XI.
If anyone shall say that the future judgment signifies the destruction of the body and that the end of the story will be an immaterial ψύσις, and that thereafter there will no longer be any matter, but only spirit νοῦς):  let him be anathema.
XII.
If anyone shall say that the heavenly Powers and all men and the Devil and evil spirits are united with the Word of God in all respects, as the Νοῦς which is by them called Christ and which is in the form of God, and which humbled itself as they say; and [if anyone shall say] that the Kingdom of Christ shall have an end:  let him be anathema.
XIII.
If anyone shall say that Christ [i.e., the Νοῦς] is in no wise different from other reasonable beings, neither substantially nor by wisdom nor by his power and might over all things but that all will be placed at the right hand of God, as well as he that is called by them Christ [the Νοῦς], as also they were in the feigned pre-existence of all things:  let him be anathema.
XIV.
If anyone shall say that all reasonable beings will one day be united in one, when the hypostases as well as the numbers and the bodies shall have disappeared, and that the knowledge of the world to come will carry with it the ruin of the worlds, and the rejection of bodies as also the abolition of [all] names, and that there shall be finally an identity of the γνῶσις and of the hypostasis; moreover, that in this pretended apocatastasis, spirits only will continue to exist, as it was in the feigned pre-existence:  let him be anathema.

XV.
If anyone shall say that the life of the spirits (νοῶν) shall be like to the life which was in the beginning while as yet the spirits had not come down or fallen, so that the end and the beginning shall be alike, and that the end shall be the true measure of the beginning:  let him be anathema.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html
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« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2012, 01:22:13 AM »

So it would seem that what was condemned doesn't really reflect what Orthodox today mean when they speak of universalism Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2012, 01:36:40 AM »

So it would seem that what was condemned doesn't really reflect what Orthodox today mean when they speak of universalism Smiley

Correct, but the voices of the Church are divided to the validity of an apocatastasis.
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2012, 02:48:28 AM »

Read about st. John Coltrane and the dancing Christ, that is Universalism.
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« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2012, 03:21:22 AM »

Universalism seems denying the free-will which men can choose not accept God's love an follow Him.
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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2012, 03:31:07 AM »

I am a former Universalist. Universalism, classically speaking, does not deny the necessity of Christ's saving work nor does it assert that all religions are equal. Christian Universalism teaches:

1. Christ's saving work was necessary for the salvation of any man.
2. Christ's saving work effectively procured the salvation of all men.

This does not mean, however, that all religions are true (the Christian Universalist would deny, for instance, that Buddha did anything to effect salvation), or that they are equal in any way. Christian Universalism does not teach that you can be saved by Buddha, but that Buddhists can be saved by Christ.
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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2012, 04:35:44 AM »

I am a former Universalist. Universalism, classically speaking, does not deny the necessity of Christ's saving work nor does it assert that all religions are equal. Christian Universalism teaches:

1. Christ's saving work was necessary for the salvation of any man.
2. Christ's saving work effectively procured the salvation of all men.

This does not mean, however, that all religions are true (the Christian Universalist would deny, for instance, that Buddha did anything to effect salvation), or that they are equal in any way. Christian Universalism does not teach that you can be saved by Buddha, but that Buddhists can be saved by Christ.
This is one of many problems with modern universalism.  There is no set standard.  It all depends on who you ask. 
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« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2012, 05:12:09 AM »

I am a former Universalist. Universalism, classically speaking, does not deny the necessity of Christ's saving work nor does it assert that all religions are equal. Christian Universalism teaches:

1. Christ's saving work was necessary for the salvation of any man.
2. Christ's saving work effectively procured the salvation of all men.

This does not mean, however, that all religions are true (the Christian Universalist would deny, for instance, that Buddha did anything to effect salvation), or that they are equal in any way. Christian Universalism does not teach that you can be saved by Buddha, but that Buddhists can be saved by Christ.
This is one of many problems with modern universalism.  There is no set standard.  It all depends on who you ask. 

And this would also be the answer of every Christian Universalist I know.
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« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2012, 06:12:37 AM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?
There are different types of universalism.

One universalism theory states that it is possible that all may be saved. This universalism is perfectly acceptable in Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).

Another universalism theory states that it is a definite reality that all will be saved. This universalism is rejected by Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).


Not all may be saved, it is part of Divine Revelation that people such as Core and his followers were swallowed up into hell.

That is unless you mean that God provides sufficient grace to all to be saved?

There were Church Fathers who speculated that all may be saved. Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa come to mind.

Ever seen these bumper stickers? 

Blergh.
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« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2012, 06:22:17 AM »

Holding out the possibility that all may be saved was one of the things that helped me convert to Orthodoxy. I remember flipping to the chapter on Hell and Judgement immediately after I was given my catechism book, to see what the Church's views were. I was greatly comforted that so many Fathers hoped for this as well. It was refreshing, coming from an evangelical background where everyone was basically already saved or damned.
That being said, I think nihilism fits quite nicely into this.
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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2012, 07:10:47 AM »

Well what are we talking about?

Universalism as in everything is true and nothing is false.

Abominadble.

UNiversalism that everyone is saved?

Wrong.

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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2012, 12:23:09 PM »

Let us examine what the Church had to say about Universalism with Origen.

5th EC
Quote
The Anathemas Against Origen.

I.
If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it:  let him be anathema.

II.
If anyone shall say that the creation (τὴυ παραγωγὴν) of all reasonable things includes only intelligences (νόας) without bodies and altogether immaterial, having neither number nor name, so that there is unity between them all by identity of substance, force and energy, and by their union with and knowledge of God the Word; but that no longer desiring the sight of God, they gave themselves over to worse things, each one following his own inclinations, and that they have taken bodies more or less subtile, and have received names, for among the heavenly Powers there is a difference of names as there is also a difference of bodies; and thence some became and are called Cherubims, others Seraphims, and Principalities, and Powers, and Dominations, and Thrones, and Angels, and as many other heavenly orders as there may be:  let him be anathema.
III.
If anyone shall say that the sun, the moon and the stars are also reasonable beings, and that they have only become what they are because they turned towards evil:  let him be anathema.
IV.
If anyone shall say that the reasonable creatures in whom the divine love had grown cold have been hidden in gross bodies such as ours, and have been called men, while those who have attained the lowest degree of wickedness have shared cold and obscure bodies and are become and called demons and evil spirits:  let him be anathema,.
V.
If anyone shall say that a psychic (ψυχικὴν) condition has come from an angelic or archangelic state, and moreover that a demoniac and a human condition has come from a psychic condition, and that from a human state they may become again angels and demons, and that each order of heavenly virtues is either all from those below or from those above, or from those above and below:  let him be anathema.
VI.
If anyone shall say that there is a twofold race of demons, of which the one includes the souls of men and the other the superior spirits who fell to this, and that of all the number of reasonable beings there is but one which has remained unshaken in the love and contemplation of God, and that that spirit is become Christ and the king of all reasonable beings, and that he has created318 all the bodies which exist in heaven, on earth, and between heaven and earth; and that the world which has in itself elements more ancient than itself, and which exists by themselves, viz.:  dryness, damp, heat and cold, and the image (ιδέαν) to which it was formed, was so formed, and that the most holy and consubstantial Trinity did not create the world, but that it was created by the working intelligence (Νοῦς δημιρυργός) which is more ancient than the world, and which communicates to it its being:  let him be anathema.
VII.
If anyone shall say that Christ, of whom it is said that he appeared in the form of God, and that he was united before all time with God the Word, and humbled himself in these last days even to humanity, had (according to their expression) pity upon the divers falls which had appeared in the spirits united in the same unity (of which he himself is part), and that to
319
restore them he passed through divers classes, had different bodies and different names, became all to all, an Angel among Angels, a Power among Powers, has clothed himself in the different classes of reasonable beings with a form corresponding to that class, and finally has taken flesh and blood like ours and is become man for men; [if anyone says all this] and does not profess that God the Word humbled himself and became man:  let him be anathema.
VIII.
If anyone shall not acknowledge that God the Word, of the same substance with the Father and the Holy Ghost, and who was made flesh and became man, one of the Trinity, is Christ in every sense of the word, but [shall affirm] that he is so only in an inaccurate manner, and because of the abasement (κενώσαντα), as they call it, of the intelligence (νοῦς); if anyone shall affirm that this intelligence united (συνημμένον ) to God the Word, is the Christ in the true sense of the word, while the Logos is only called Christ because of this union with the intelligence, and e converso that the intelligence is only called God because of the Logos:  let him be anathema.
IX.
If anyone shall say that it was not the Divine Logos made man by taking an animated body with a ψυχὴ῾ λογικὴ and νοερὰ, that he descended into hell and ascended into heaven, but shall pretend that it is the Νοῦς which has done this, that Νοῦς of which they say (in an impious fashion) he is Christ properly so called, and that he is become so by the knowledge of the Monad:  let him be anathema.
X.
If anyone shall say that after the resurrection the body of the Lord was ethereal, having the form of a sphere, and that such shall be the bodies of all after the resurrection; and that after the Lord himself shall have rejected his true body and after the others who rise shall have rejected theirs, the nature of their bodies shall be annihilated:  let him be anathema.
XI.
If anyone shall say that the future judgment signifies the destruction of the body and that the end of the story will be an immaterial ψύσις, and that thereafter there will no longer be any matter, but only spirit νοῦς):  let him be anathema.
XII.
If anyone shall say that the heavenly Powers and all men and the Devil and evil spirits are united with the Word of God in all respects, as the Νοῦς which is by them called Christ and which is in the form of God, and which humbled itself as they say; and [if anyone shall say] that the Kingdom of Christ shall have an end:  let him be anathema.
XIII.
If anyone shall say that Christ [i.e., the Νοῦς] is in no wise different from other reasonable beings, neither substantially nor by wisdom nor by his power and might over all things but that all will be placed at the right hand of God, as well as he that is called by them Christ [the Νοῦς], as also they were in the feigned pre-existence of all things:  let him be anathema.
XIV.
If anyone shall say that all reasonable beings will one day be united in one, when the hypostases as well as the numbers and the bodies shall have disappeared, and that the knowledge of the world to come will carry with it the ruin of the worlds, and the rejection of bodies as also the abolition of [all] names, and that there shall be finally an identity of the γνῶσις and of the hypostasis; moreover, that in this pretended apocatastasis, spirits only will continue to exist, as it was in the feigned pre-existence:  let him be anathema.

XV.
If anyone shall say that the life of the spirits (νοῶν) shall be like to the life which was in the beginning while as yet the spirits had not come down or fallen, so that the end and the beginning shall be alike, and that the end shall be the true measure of the beginning:  let him be anathema.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html




How come only the priests anathematize, and we don't get to do that?
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« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2012, 12:50:18 PM »

Let us examine what the Church had to say about Universalism with Origen.

5th EC
Quote
The Anathemas Against Origen.

I.
If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it:  let him be anathema.

II.
If anyone shall say that the creation (τὴυ παραγωγὴν) of all reasonable things includes only intelligences (νόας) without bodies and altogether immaterial, having neither number nor name, so that there is unity between them all by identity of substance, force and energy, and by their union with and knowledge of God the Word; but that no longer desiring the sight of God, they gave themselves over to worse things, each one following his own inclinations, and that they have taken bodies more or less subtile, and have received names, for among the heavenly Powers there is a difference of names as there is also a difference of bodies; and thence some became and are called Cherubims, others Seraphims, and Principalities, and Powers, and Dominations, and Thrones, and Angels, and as many other heavenly orders as there may be:  let him be anathema.
III.
If anyone shall say that the sun, the moon and the stars are also reasonable beings, and that they have only become what they are because they turned towards evil:  let him be anathema.
IV.
If anyone shall say that the reasonable creatures in whom the divine love had grown cold have been hidden in gross bodies such as ours, and have been called men, while those who have attained the lowest degree of wickedness have shared cold and obscure bodies and are become and called demons and evil spirits:  let him be anathema,.
V.
If anyone shall say that a psychic (ψυχικὴν) condition has come from an angelic or archangelic state, and moreover that a demoniac and a human condition has come from a psychic condition, and that from a human state they may become again angels and demons, and that each order of heavenly virtues is either all from those below or from those above, or from those above and below:  let him be anathema.
VI.
If anyone shall say that there is a twofold race of demons, of which the one includes the souls of men and the other the superior spirits who fell to this, and that of all the number of reasonable beings there is but one which has remained unshaken in the love and contemplation of God, and that that spirit is become Christ and the king of all reasonable beings, and that he has created318 all the bodies which exist in heaven, on earth, and between heaven and earth; and that the world which has in itself elements more ancient than itself, and which exists by themselves, viz.:  dryness, damp, heat and cold, and the image (ιδέαν) to which it was formed, was so formed, and that the most holy and consubstantial Trinity did not create the world, but that it was created by the working intelligence (Νοῦς δημιρυργός) which is more ancient than the world, and which communicates to it its being:  let him be anathema.
VII.
If anyone shall say that Christ, of whom it is said that he appeared in the form of God, and that he was united before all time with God the Word, and humbled himself in these last days even to humanity, had (according to their expression) pity upon the divers falls which had appeared in the spirits united in the same unity (of which he himself is part), and that to
319
restore them he passed through divers classes, had different bodies and different names, became all to all, an Angel among Angels, a Power among Powers, has clothed himself in the different classes of reasonable beings with a form corresponding to that class, and finally has taken flesh and blood like ours and is become man for men; [if anyone says all this] and does not profess that God the Word humbled himself and became man:  let him be anathema.
VIII.
If anyone shall not acknowledge that God the Word, of the same substance with the Father and the Holy Ghost, and who was made flesh and became man, one of the Trinity, is Christ in every sense of the word, but [shall affirm] that he is so only in an inaccurate manner, and because of the abasement (κενώσαντα), as they call it, of the intelligence (νοῦς); if anyone shall affirm that this intelligence united (συνημμένον ) to God the Word, is the Christ in the true sense of the word, while the Logos is only called Christ because of this union with the intelligence, and e converso that the intelligence is only called God because of the Logos:  let him be anathema.
IX.
If anyone shall say that it was not the Divine Logos made man by taking an animated body with a ψυχὴ῾ λογικὴ and νοερὰ, that he descended into hell and ascended into heaven, but shall pretend that it is the Νοῦς which has done this, that Νοῦς of which they say (in an impious fashion) he is Christ properly so called, and that he is become so by the knowledge of the Monad:  let him be anathema.
X.
If anyone shall say that after the resurrection the body of the Lord was ethereal, having the form of a sphere, and that such shall be the bodies of all after the resurrection; and that after the Lord himself shall have rejected his true body and after the others who rise shall have rejected theirs, the nature of their bodies shall be annihilated:  let him be anathema.
XI.
If anyone shall say that the future judgment signifies the destruction of the body and that the end of the story will be an immaterial ψύσις, and that thereafter there will no longer be any matter, but only spirit νοῦς):  let him be anathema.
XII.
If anyone shall say that the heavenly Powers and all men and the Devil and evil spirits are united with the Word of God in all respects, as the Νοῦς which is by them called Christ and which is in the form of God, and which humbled itself as they say; and [if anyone shall say] that the Kingdom of Christ shall have an end:  let him be anathema.
XIII.
If anyone shall say that Christ [i.e., the Νοῦς] is in no wise different from other reasonable beings, neither substantially nor by wisdom nor by his power and might over all things but that all will be placed at the right hand of God, as well as he that is called by them Christ [the Νοῦς], as also they were in the feigned pre-existence of all things:  let him be anathema.
XIV.
If anyone shall say that all reasonable beings will one day be united in one, when the hypostases as well as the numbers and the bodies shall have disappeared, and that the knowledge of the world to come will carry with it the ruin of the worlds, and the rejection of bodies as also the abolition of [all] names, and that there shall be finally an identity of the γνῶσις and of the hypostasis; moreover, that in this pretended apocatastasis, spirits only will continue to exist, as it was in the feigned pre-existence:  let him be anathema.

XV.
If anyone shall say that the life of the spirits (νοῶν) shall be like to the life which was in the beginning while as yet the spirits had not come down or fallen, so that the end and the beginning shall be alike, and that the end shall be the true measure of the beginning:  let him be anathema.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html




How come only the priests anathematize, and we don't get to do that?

I think it's typically bishops who anathematize.

And all I know is I wouldn't want you having the power to do it.
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« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2012, 01:14:39 PM »

Well what are we talking about?

Universalism as in everything is true and nothing is false.

Abominadble.

UNiversalism that everyone is saved?

Wrong.

Since it seems you missed Jetavan's pertinent post, I'll re-post it here:

Quote
There are different types of universalism.

One universalism theory states that it is possible that all may be saved. This universalism is perfectly acceptable in Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).

Another universalism theory states that it is a definite reality that all will be saved. This universalism is rejected by Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).

I agree that the first kind of universalism shouldn't pose a problem for us.
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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2012, 08:08:37 PM »

Holding out the possibility that all may be saved was one of the things that helped me convert to Orthodoxy. I remember flipping to the chapter on Hell and Judgement immediately after I was given my catechism book, to see what the Church's views were. I was greatly comforted that so many Fathers hoped for this as well. It was refreshing, coming from an evangelical background where everyone was basically already saved or damned.
That being said, I think nihilism fits quite nicely into this.

what do you mean by nihilism?
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« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2012, 08:11:30 PM »

One universalism theory states that it is possible that all may be saved. This universalism is perfectly acceptable in Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).

I agree that the first kind of universalism shouldn't pose a problem for us.

Can you (or anyone else) chime in here then? Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2012, 08:14:11 PM »

Let us examine what the Church had to say about Universalism with Origen.

5th EC
Quote
The Anathemas Against Origen.

I.
If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it:  let him be anathema.

II.
If anyone shall say that the creation (τὴυ παραγωγὴν) of all reasonable things includes only intelligences (νόας) without bodies and altogether immaterial, having neither number nor name, so that there is unity between them all by identity of substance, force and energy, and by their union with and knowledge of God the Word; but that no longer desiring the sight of God, they gave themselves over to worse things, each one following his own inclinations, and that they have taken bodies more or less subtile, and have received names, for among the heavenly Powers there is a difference of names as there is also a difference of bodies; and thence some became and are called Cherubims, others Seraphims, and Principalities, and Powers, and Dominations, and Thrones, and Angels, and as many other heavenly orders as there may be:  let him be anathema.
III.
If anyone shall say that the sun, the moon and the stars are also reasonable beings, and that they have only become what they are because they turned towards evil:  let him be anathema.
IV.
If anyone shall say that the reasonable creatures in whom the divine love had grown cold have been hidden in gross bodies such as ours, and have been called men, while those who have attained the lowest degree of wickedness have shared cold and obscure bodies and are become and called demons and evil spirits:  let him be anathema,.
V.
If anyone shall say that a psychic (ψυχικὴν) condition has come from an angelic or archangelic state, and moreover that a demoniac and a human condition has come from a psychic condition, and that from a human state they may become again angels and demons, and that each order of heavenly virtues is either all from those below or from those above, or from those above and below:  let him be anathema.
VI.
If anyone shall say that there is a twofold race of demons, of which the one includes the souls of men and the other the superior spirits who fell to this, and that of all the number of reasonable beings there is but one which has remained unshaken in the love and contemplation of God, and that that spirit is become Christ and the king of all reasonable beings, and that he has created318 all the bodies which exist in heaven, on earth, and between heaven and earth; and that the world which has in itself elements more ancient than itself, and which exists by themselves, viz.:  dryness, damp, heat and cold, and the image (ιδέαν) to which it was formed, was so formed, and that the most holy and consubstantial Trinity did not create the world, but that it was created by the working intelligence (Νοῦς δημιρυργός) which is more ancient than the world, and which communicates to it its being:  let him be anathema.
VII.
If anyone shall say that Christ, of whom it is said that he appeared in the form of God, and that he was united before all time with God the Word, and humbled himself in these last days even to humanity, had (according to their expression) pity upon the divers falls which had appeared in the spirits united in the same unity (of which he himself is part), and that to
319
restore them he passed through divers classes, had different bodies and different names, became all to all, an Angel among Angels, a Power among Powers, has clothed himself in the different classes of reasonable beings with a form corresponding to that class, and finally has taken flesh and blood like ours and is become man for men; [if anyone says all this] and does not profess that God the Word humbled himself and became man:  let him be anathema.
VIII.
If anyone shall not acknowledge that God the Word, of the same substance with the Father and the Holy Ghost, and who was made flesh and became man, one of the Trinity, is Christ in every sense of the word, but [shall affirm] that he is so only in an inaccurate manner, and because of the abasement (κενώσαντα), as they call it, of the intelligence (νοῦς); if anyone shall affirm that this intelligence united (συνημμένον ) to God the Word, is the Christ in the true sense of the word, while the Logos is only called Christ because of this union with the intelligence, and e converso that the intelligence is only called God because of the Logos:  let him be anathema.
IX.
If anyone shall say that it was not the Divine Logos made man by taking an animated body with a ψυχὴ῾ λογικὴ and νοερὰ, that he descended into hell and ascended into heaven, but shall pretend that it is the Νοῦς which has done this, that Νοῦς of which they say (in an impious fashion) he is Christ properly so called, and that he is become so by the knowledge of the Monad:  let him be anathema.
X.
If anyone shall say that after the resurrection the body of the Lord was ethereal, having the form of a sphere, and that such shall be the bodies of all after the resurrection; and that after the Lord himself shall have rejected his true body and after the others who rise shall have rejected theirs, the nature of their bodies shall be annihilated:  let him be anathema.
XI.
If anyone shall say that the future judgment signifies the destruction of the body and that the end of the story will be an immaterial ψύσις, and that thereafter there will no longer be any matter, but only spirit νοῦς):  let him be anathema.
XII.
If anyone shall say that the heavenly Powers and all men and the Devil and evil spirits are united with the Word of God in all respects, as the Νοῦς which is by them called Christ and which is in the form of God, and which humbled itself as they say; and [if anyone shall say] that the Kingdom of Christ shall have an end:  let him be anathema.
XIII.
If anyone shall say that Christ [i.e., the Νοῦς] is in no wise different from other reasonable beings, neither substantially nor by wisdom nor by his power and might over all things but that all will be placed at the right hand of God, as well as he that is called by them Christ [the Νοῦς], as also they were in the feigned pre-existence of all things:  let him be anathema.
XIV.
If anyone shall say that all reasonable beings will one day be united in one, when the hypostases as well as the numbers and the bodies shall have disappeared, and that the knowledge of the world to come will carry with it the ruin of the worlds, and the rejection of bodies as also the abolition of [all] names, and that there shall be finally an identity of the γνῶσις and of the hypostasis; moreover, that in this pretended apocatastasis, spirits only will continue to exist, as it was in the feigned pre-existence:  let him be anathema.

XV.
If anyone shall say that the life of the spirits (νοῶν) shall be like to the life which was in the beginning while as yet the spirits had not come down or fallen, so that the end and the beginning shall be alike, and that the end shall be the true measure of the beginning:  let him be anathema.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html




How come only the priests anathematize, and we don't get to do that?

I think it's typically bishops who anathematize.

And all I know is I wouldn't want you having the power to do it.

May I ask why?
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« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2012, 09:04:56 PM »

Well what are we talking about?

Universalism as in everything is true and nothing is false.

Abominadble.

UNiversalism that everyone is saved?

Wrong.

Since it seems you missed Jetavan's pertinent post, I'll re-post it here:

Quote
There are different types of universalism.

One universalism theory states that it is possible that all may be saved. This universalism is perfectly acceptable in Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).

Another universalism theory states that it is a definite reality that all will be saved. This universalism is rejected by Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).

I agree that the first kind of universalism shouldn't pose a problem for us.

Just one?
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« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2012, 09:30:23 PM »

Well what are we talking about?

Universalism as in everything is true and nothing is false.

Abominadble.

UNiversalism that everyone is saved?

Wrong.

Since it seems you missed Jetavan's pertinent post, I'll re-post it here:

Quote
There are different types of universalism.

One universalism theory states that it is possible that all may be saved. This universalism is perfectly acceptable in Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).

Another universalism theory states that it is a definite reality that all will be saved. This universalism is rejected by Orthodoxy (and Catholicism).

I agree that the first kind of universalism shouldn't pose a problem for us.

Just one?

I'm not sure what it is you are asking, exactly.
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« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2012, 09:57:18 PM »

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Re: what do you think about universalism?

That's easy. All Religions One Path One God ... that kind of stuff (You forgot Indian Shamanism)
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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2012, 09:58:00 PM »

I’m not really asking a question as much as I am making a statement.  That statement being, Nicene provided one understanding (actually two) of universalism.  You retorted with another.  This means, apparently, there is no standard universalism.  Sort of like the meaning of transsexual, it can mean anything you want it to mean.  If there is no standard resulting in various meanings of the word, I am curious why Jetavan’s one understanding of universalism must be given special recognition over any other.  

I also provided two different aspects of universalism and could look in my theological dictionary and post a page and one half of additional information from another source, but I somehow doubt it would be appreciated.  It’s so much information I don’t think I could even paraphrase it enough to make it an acceptable size post.

The point being, one version of universalism is no better than another.  Not as a result of our doing, but those who claim universalism.  In any event, I dismiss all versions of universalism.  I had a co-worker who became an ordained pastor of a universalist church simply by submitting $25 through the mail and he isn’t even religious.  

In response to Jetavan’s understanding, is it possible that all MAY be saved.  Sure it is.  In the same manner anything is possible.  Is it probable or even feasible?  Not in a gagillion years.
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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2012, 10:18:25 PM »

What do I think about universalism?

I like the universe. It's the one I was born in. I haven't been to any others, to compare, but this one's pretty nice.
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« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2012, 10:28:55 PM »

In response to Jetavan’s understanding, is it possible that all MAY be saved.  Sure it is.  In the same manner anything is possible.  Is it probable or even feasible?  Not in a gagillion years.

Well, I have read that some of our saints pray(ed) for demons, even the devil. Surely they wouldn't waste their time it if they didn't believe - and hope - that all will be saved. Surely we can hope and pray for the salvation of all.
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« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2012, 10:49:31 PM »

May I ask why?

Sure. You have thus far demonstrated precious little commitment to the Faith and I think you'd more likely anathematize the orthodox for calling out heresy than you would the heretics themselves.
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« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2012, 10:58:53 PM »

What do I think about universalism?

I like the universe. It's the one I was born in. I haven't been to any others, to compare, but this one's pretty nice.

lol!!! are you that naive?
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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2012, 11:01:44 PM »

May I ask why?

Sure. You have thus far demonstrated precious little commitment to the Faith and I think you'd more likely anathematize the orthodox for calling out heresy than you would the heretics themselves.
I wouldn't. I don't believe in anathematizing. I believe in Letting go, and Letting God decide. However, the Jews didn't believe Jesus who was truly innocent. And I don't expect you to believe ME.
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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2012, 11:03:01 PM »

In response to Jetavan’s understanding, is it possible that all MAY be saved.  Sure it is.  In the same manner anything is possible.  Is it probable or even feasible?  Not in a gagillion years.

Well, I have read that some of our saints pray(ed) for demons, even the devil. Surely they wouldn't waste their time it if they didn't believe - and hope - that all will be saved. Surely we can hope and pray for the salvation of all.
doesn't the bible however state that the devil will at the end be destroyed?
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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2012, 11:05:48 PM »

You are speaking of Rev. 20 I assume? It isn't clear that it speaks of being destroyed, however.
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« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2012, 11:42:52 PM »

You are speaking of Rev. 20 I assume? It isn't clear that it speaks of being destroyed, however.

what will happen to it then?
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« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2012, 11:44:21 PM »

What do I think about universalism?

I like the universe. It's the one I was born in. I haven't been to any others, to compare, but this one's pretty nice.

lol!!! are you that naive?

Okay, I am not going to dignify you with an answer anymore.
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« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2012, 11:45:30 PM »

You are speaking of Rev. 20 I assume? It isn't clear that it speaks of being destroyed, however.

what will happen to it then?

It may exist forever...
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« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2012, 10:00:27 AM »

I’m not really asking a question as much as I am making a statement.  That statement being, Nicene provided one understanding (actually two) of universalism.  You retorted with another.

BTW... I didn't mean it as a retort, although I can see how one could take it that way having read my post again. I was going to type my own understanding of universalism as it relates to Orthodoxy, but I felt that Jetavan had already done a better job than I would have. So I re-posted his. Indeed, it seems that a lot of people are having entirely different understandings of the word "universalism" here! 

Sorry if I was rude to you, Nicene.


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« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2012, 10:04:27 AM »

In response to Jetavan’s understanding, is it possible that all MAY be saved.  Sure it is.  In the same manner anything is possible.  Is it probable or even feasible?  Not in a gagillion years.

Well, I have read that some of our saints pray(ed) for demons, even the devil. Surely they wouldn't waste their time it if they didn't believe - and hope - that all will be saved. Surely we can hope and pray for the salvation of all.
doesn't the bible however state that the devil will at the end be destroyed?

I wasn't trying to challenge scripture. I was just pointing out that many saints have so purified their hearts that they cannot help but pray for the salvation of all.
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« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2012, 09:12:14 PM »

You are speaking of Rev. 20 I assume? It isn't clear that it speaks of being destroyed, however.

what will happen to it then?

It may exist forever...

and keep ruining the lives of the innocent?
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« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2012, 09:24:19 PM »

You are speaking of Rev. 20 I assume? It isn't clear that it speaks of being destroyed, however.

what will happen to it then?

It may exist forever...

and keep ruining the lives of the innocent?

In what way would that happen? If they end up there they wouldn't be innocent. Or so the theory usually goes...  Huh
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« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2012, 09:42:09 PM »

You are speaking of Rev. 20 I assume? It isn't clear that it speaks of being destroyed, however.

what will happen to it then?

It may exist forever...



and keep ruining the lives of the innocent?

In what way would that happen? If they end up there they wouldn't be innocent. Or so the theory usually goes...  Huh



If heaven and hell are both in the presence of God. Then the devil will keep sticking his nose. Unless of course he is  destroyed.
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« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2012, 09:56:46 PM »

Maybe God will bind him with really really strong chains  Huh
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« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2012, 10:13:01 PM »

My understanding is that there is no Salvation outside the Church.

The exception are primitive or distant people who have not heard the Gospel if they live a moral life. They may be saved.

Otherwise, both the Orthodox and Roman Church hold that there is no Salvation outside the Church. Various modernist tendencies have fudged this of late especially among the Latins.
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« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2012, 10:18:18 PM »

My understanding is that there is no Salvation outside the Church.

The exception are primitive or distant people who have not heard the Gospel if they live a moral life. They may be saved.

Otherwise, both the Orthodox and Roman Church hold that there is no Salvation outside the Church. Various modernist tendencies have fudged this of late especially among the Latins.

So... are you saying that everyone outside of the Church (except for those who have not heard the Gospel) is destined for hell?
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« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2012, 10:42:48 PM »

My understanding is that there is no Salvation outside the Church.

The exception are primitive or distant people who have not heard the Gospel if they live a moral life. They may be saved.

Otherwise, both the Orthodox and Roman Church hold that there is no Salvation outside the Church. Various modernist tendencies have fudged this of late especially among the Latins.

So... are you saying that everyone outside of the Church (except for those who have not heard the Gospel) is destined for hell?

God can do whatever he wills. There is also a question where The Church may or may not be present.

But that is the teaching of the Church both Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

 
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« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2012, 10:47:38 PM »

Specifically to your comment, Marc, I found this on page 247 of The Orthodox Church, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. It both confirms what you wrote, and expands on it (and kind of further answers my question to you):

"Orthodoxy also teaches that outside the Church there is no salvation... Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked, 'How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!' While there is no division between a 'visible' and an 'invisible Church', yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense we cannot always say."

And on page 262 of the same book, he has this to say about the possibility of universal salvation:

"Hell exists as a final possibility, but several of the Fathers have none the less believed that in the end all will be reconciled to God. It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved. Until the Last Day comes, we must not despair of anyone’s salvation, but must long and pray for the reconciliation of all without exception. No one must be excluded from our loving intercession. ‘What is a merciful heart?’ asked Isaac the Syrian. ‘It is a heart that burns with love for the whole of creation, for men, for the birds, for the beasts, for the demons, for all creatures’. Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians may legitimately hope even for the redemption of the Devil."
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« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2012, 10:51:57 PM »

Some other quotes:

"We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not." - Met. Kallistos, The Orthodox Church, p. 308

"The Church visible, or upon earth, lives in complete communion and unity with the whole body of the Church, of which Christ is the Head. She has abiding within her Christ and the grace of the Holy Spirit in all their living fullness, but not in the fullness of their manifestation, for she acts and knows not fully, but only so far as it pleases God. Inasmuch as the earthly and visible Church is not the fullness and completeness of the whole Church which the Lord has appointed to appear at the final judgment of all creation, she acts and knows only within her own limits; and (according to the words of Paul the Apostle, to the Corinthians, (1 Cor. 5. 12) does not judge the rest of mankind, and only looks upon those as excluded, that is to say, not belonging to her, who exclude themselves. The rest of mankind, whether alien from the Church, or united to her by ties which God has not willed to reveal to her, she leaves to the judgment of the great day." - Alexei Khomiakov, The Church is One, p. 11

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« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2012, 10:55:51 PM »

Specifically to your comment, Marc, I found this on page 247 of The Orthodox Church, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. It both confirms what you wrote, and expands on it (and kind of further answers my question to you):

"Orthodoxy also teaches that outside the Church there is no salvation... Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked, 'How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!' While there is no division between a 'visible' and an 'invisible Church', yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense we cannot always say."

And on page 262 of the same book, he has this to say about the possibility of universal salvation:

"Hell exists as a final possibility, but several of the Fathers have none the less believed that in the end all will be reconciled to God. It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved. Until the Last Day comes, we must not despair of anyone’s salvation, but must long and pray for the reconciliation of all without exception. No one must be excluded from our loving intercession. ‘What is a merciful heart?’ asked Isaac the Syrian. ‘It is a heart that burns with love for the whole of creation, for men, for the birds, for the beasts, for the demons, for all creatures’. Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians may legitimately hope even for the redemption of the Devil."

Bishop Ware is considered to be somewhat Liberal on the topic. He also says that we can't teach Universal Salvation because it would make people lazy so by implication the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church is an expedient. However, the first paragraph you posted seems to sum up what I was referring to.

The folks with the bigger problem are the Roman Catholics who have in their ranks many who teach Universal Salvation in one form or another which is a heresy.
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« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2012, 03:02:09 AM »

What do I think about universalism?

I like the universe. It's the one I was born in. I haven't been to any others, to compare, but this one's pretty nice.

lol!!! are you that naive?

Okay, I am not going to dignify you with an answer anymore.

biro,  you're my hero. Cheesy
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« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2012, 04:41:10 AM »

What do I think about universalism?

I like the universe. It's the one I was born in. I haven't been to any others, to compare, but this one's pretty nice.

lol!!! are you that naive?

Okay, I am not going to dignify you with an answer anymore.

biro,  you're my hero. Cheesy

Thank you.  Smiley
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« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2012, 04:50:08 AM »

"We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not." - Met. Kallistos, The Orthodox Church, p. 308

One of the greatest nonsenses of modern Orthodoxy. Historically the Orthodox have been fairly confident about where the Church is and where it isn't.
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« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2012, 06:44:51 AM »

One of the greatest nonsenses of modern Orthodoxy. Historically the Orthodox have been fairly confident about where the Church is and where it isn't.

I know of a 17th century Patriarch of Alexandria who taught that everyone who believed that Christ is the head of the Church is in the Catholic Church. That included, according to him, Latins and "those from Luther."
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« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2012, 08:56:52 AM »

One of the greatest nonsenses of modern Orthodoxy. Historically the Orthodox have been fairly confident about where the Church is and where it isn't.

I know of a 17th century Patriarch of Alexandria who taught that everyone who believed that Christ is the head of the Church is in the Catholic Church. That included, according to him, Latins and "those from Luther."

Who he was? Did he say that we cannot be sure where the Church is not?
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« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2012, 08:57:40 AM »

One of the greatest nonsenses of modern Orthodoxy. Historically the Orthodox have been fairly confident about where the Church is and where it isn't.

I know of a 17th century Patriarch of Alexandria who taught that everyone who believed that Christ is the head of the Church is in the Catholic Church. That included, according to him, Latins and "those from Luther."

Who he was? Did he say that we cannot be sure where the Church is not?

Apparently he was very confused about it. Ιt was Patriarch Meletius Pegas btw.
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« Reply #77 on: December 31, 2012, 12:12:39 PM »

"We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not." - Met. Kallistos, The Orthodox Church, p. 308

One of the greatest nonsenses of modern Orthodoxy. Historically the Orthodox have been fairly confident about where the Church is and where it isn't.

 I agree. The statement is true but it is done with a wink and a nudge. It is promulgated to allow for Universal Salvation in a scope and manner that goes against the Orthodox understanding of salvation.

Better to emphasize that we should bring as many people as possible into the Church. 
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« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2012, 12:16:40 PM »

One of the greatest nonsenses of modern Orthodoxy. Historically the Orthodox have been fairly confident about where the Church is and where it isn't.

I know of a 17th century Patriarch of Alexandria who taught that everyone who believed that Christ is the head of the Church is in the Catholic Church. That included, according to him, Latins and "those from Luther."

I just attended a Chrismation of a formally Roman Catholic Woman being received into The Church. She was read a list of heretical RC doctrines that she had to publicly denounce. One question was if she rejects the idea that a single Bishop can be the head of The Church and accepts that only Christ is the Head of The Church.
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« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2012, 12:46:59 PM »

"We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not." - Met. Kallistos, The Orthodox Church, p. 308

One of the greatest nonsenses of modern Orthodoxy. Historically the Orthodox have been fairly confident about where the Church is and where it isn't.

I am reading that book right now, and Met. Kallistos' point seems to be the same as the way the Catholics spin the same thing, that everyone who winds up being saved is a member of the true Church, whether they found their way into the visible organization before death or not; all salvation is through Jesus Christ so if you're saved, it's specifically and only because of the grace of God. It doesn't mean we should just relax and not try to tell anyone about Jesus, just that we shouldn't despair for the salvation of anyone who has died. Which a lot of other Orthodox seem to teach, so I'm not sure why that's controversial. But then, this is an Internet forum.  Grin
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« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2012, 01:56:45 PM »

"We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not." - Met. Kallistos, The Orthodox Church, p. 308

One of the greatest nonsenses of modern Orthodoxy. Historically the Orthodox have been fairly confident about where the Church is and where it isn't.

I am reading that book right now, and Met. Kallistos' point seems to be the same as the way the Catholics spin the same thing, that everyone who winds up being saved is a member of the true Church, whether they found their way into the visible organization before death or not; all salvation is through Jesus Christ so if you're saved, it's specifically and only because of the grace of God. It doesn't mean we should just relax and not try to tell anyone about Jesus, just that we shouldn't despair for the salvation of anyone who has died. Which a lot of other Orthodox seem to teach, so I'm not sure why that's controversial. But then, this is an Internet forum.  Grin

I went to a funeral a year or so ago for a Woman who had been born a Catholic but had no interest in the Church or any religion throughout her life.

A Priest spoke at the memorial service. He said "Don't let anyone tell you that you must attend Church in order to go to Heaven"
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« Reply #81 on: December 31, 2012, 02:14:35 PM »

Well, I have often been told by Orthodox that there's no "Sunday obligation" in Orthodoxy, so why was that priest wrong?  ;-)
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« Reply #82 on: December 31, 2012, 02:23:03 PM »

Bishop Ware is considered to be somewhat Liberal on the topic. He also says that we can't teach Universal Salvation because it would make people lazy so by implication the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church is an expedient. However, the first paragraph you posted seems to sum up what I was referring to.

The folks with the bigger problem are the Roman Catholics who have in their ranks many who teach Universal Salvation in one form or another which is a heresy.

I think you are dismissing him too easily. He is not alone in what he says, and besides, he is by far the most prominent and influential Orthodox author writing in English.
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« Reply #83 on: December 31, 2012, 02:31:28 PM »

"We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not." - Met. Kallistos, The Orthodox Church, p. 308

One of the greatest nonsenses of modern Orthodoxy. Historically the Orthodox have been fairly confident about where the Church is and where it isn't.

I am reading that book right now, and Met. Kallistos' point seems to be the same as the way the Catholics spin the same thing, that everyone who winds up being saved is a member of the true Church, whether they found their way into the visible organization before death or not; all salvation is through Jesus Christ so if you're saved, it's specifically and only because of the grace of God. It doesn't mean we should just relax and not try to tell anyone about Jesus, just that we shouldn't despair for the salvation of anyone who has died.

I agree with that but in my corner of the World that kind of sayings are sometimes interpreted basically as "Look what this prominent theologian writes! We must be open to the World! We know that Orthodoxy is the Church but Metropolitan Kallistos says that Lutheranism and Catholicism could be too!"
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« Reply #84 on: December 31, 2012, 05:36:33 PM »

Universalism is not just one uniform idealogy but an umbrella term with several sub-idealogies and levels. What exactly are you referring to in this thread? If you mean universalism in the sense that everyone will "be saved"--which is actually a Protestant concept that's foreign to us Orthodox--then we would disagree with that, because ultimately it reduces all religions to being the same and leads to the frightening conclusion that we could live however we want and that it doesn't matter because either way we will "be saved" in the end.
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« Reply #85 on: December 31, 2012, 05:53:21 PM »

Universalism is not just one uniform idealogy but an umbrella term with several sub-idealogies and levels. What exactly are you referring to in this thread? If you mean universalism in the sense that everyone will "be saved"--which is actually a Protestant concept that's foreign to us Orthodox--then we would disagree with that, because ultimately it reduces all religions to being the same and leads to the frightening conclusion that we could live however we want and that it doesn't matter because either way we will "be saved" in the end.

I really don't get how people come to this conclusion.  Saying everyone will be saved doesn't mean there is no reason to live a Godly life.  Saying everyone will be saved doesn't negate a purgation of the soul after death, a purgation that would probably be all the more painful the less like God one has been in this life. 

And besides, I don't know that it is a very good thing to argue for the whole "You should do what God tells you because otherwise you're gonna suffer!" angle.  Shouldn't we be like God to be close to God?
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« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2012, 06:00:44 PM »

I really don't get how people come to this conclusion.

It's simple. Saying that everyone in the end will arrive at the same destination negates the affect of any of our actions today on Earth, thus, there is no reason to do anything but to live the way you want. This is what every determinist philosophy ultimately leads to.

Quote
Saying everyone will be saved doesn't mean there is no reason to live a Godly life.

Speak for yourself

Quote
Saying everyone will be saved doesn't negate a purgation of the soul after death, a purgation that would probably be all the more painful the less like God one has been in this life.

That's speculation, and you are assuming that there is a clear doctrine of purgation in universalism, whereas most Protestant idealogies--universalism included--don't believe in any form of purgation but rather it's BOOM, you are either in western Heaven or western Hell right after death. Plus, even if there is a purgation according to the idealogy, many people would still be tempted to do whatever they want now and pay the heavy purgation later knowing that eventually they'll arrive at the same destination as everyone else. I know I at least would.

Quote
And besides, I don't know that it is a very good thing to argue for the whole "You should do what God tells you because otherwise you're gonna suffer!" angle.  Shouldn't we be like God to be close to God?

Aren't they the same thing? You should be close to God to be close to God or else you will suffer. The two concepts are interconnected. Anything other than closeness to God will lead to suffering sooner or later.
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« Reply #87 on: December 31, 2012, 06:16:54 PM »

I really don't get how people come to this conclusion.

It's simple. Saying that everyone in the end will arrive at the same destination negates the affect of any of our actions today on Earth, thus, there is no reason to do anything but to live the way you want.
Saying that everyone will arrive at the same destination also includes the possibility that everyone will do "whatever it takes", in order to arrive at the same destination. If "whatever it takes" includes "carrying one's cross," then everyone will arrive at the same destination by carrying their cross -- which is very different from "living the way you want".

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« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2012, 06:35:25 PM »

I would say that "all are saved" cannot necessarily be equated with "we end up the same". You and I might both be saved, but you might be a lot further along in the process of theosis than I. Thus even if we were all saved, nonetheless cooperation with God and our efforts here on earth wouldn't be for nothing, but would still have a very real benefit, both in this life and in the next.
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« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2012, 10:16:52 PM »

I really don't get how people come to this conclusion.

It's simple. Saying that everyone in the end will arrive at the same destination negates the affect of any of our actions today on Earth, thus, there is no reason to do anything but to live the way you want. This is what every determinist philosophy ultimately leads to.

Quote
Saying everyone will be saved doesn't mean there is no reason to live a Godly life.

Speak for yourself

Quote
Saying everyone will be saved doesn't negate a purgation of the soul after death, a purgation that would probably be all the more painful the less like God one has been in this life.

That's speculation, and you are assuming that there is a clear doctrine of purgation in universalism, whereas most Protestant idealogies--universalism included--don't believe in any form of purgation but rather it's BOOM, you are either in western Heaven or western Hell right after death. Plus, even if there is a purgation according to the idealogy, many people would still be tempted to do whatever they want now and pay the heavy purgation later knowing that eventually they'll arrive at the same destination as everyone else. I know I at least would.

Quote
And besides, I don't know that it is a very good thing to argue for the whole "You should do what God tells you because otherwise you're gonna suffer!" angle.  Shouldn't we be like God to be close to God?

Aren't they the same thing? You should be close to God to be close to God or else you will suffer. The two concepts are interconnected. Anything other than closeness to God will lead to suffering sooner or later.
[/quote]

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« Reply #90 on: December 31, 2012, 10:23:03 PM »

I would say that "all are saved" cannot necessarily be equated with "we end up the same". You and I might both be saved, but you might be a lot further along in the process of theosis than I. Thus even if we were all saved, nonetheless cooperation with God and our efforts here on earth wouldn't be for nothing, but would still have a very real benefit, both in this life and in the next.
who cares if you are more holy than everyone else or the other way around? isn't heaven the most subconcient dream of all? I am sure if God accepts us in his kingdom, we will see his total kindness and we will honor him for that.
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« Reply #91 on: December 31, 2012, 10:29:18 PM »

If you believe that we grow closer to God for all eternity, it does matter.

What you are saying would be like saying "Who cares what cut of beef I get? It's all from the same place!" Two different cuts might nourish you enough to keep you alive, but there is still a difference.

EDIT--I should not have said that Sad   It's more like marriage--you don't do stuff because you expect a reward, but because you want to, because you want to grow closer, because you love them and it makes you and then happy, etc.
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« Reply #92 on: January 01, 2013, 01:45:42 PM »

Keep in mind the Eastern Paradigm that The Church is where you are healed and transformed. Salvation is not guaranteed by contract. It is a process.

That being the case the doctrine of No Salvation Outside The Church can be compared to military training. Can you be put into intense combat with no training? Could you have been put into the first wave ashore at Normandy with no basic training and survive?  Can you make it if you dont know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, how to take proper cover and if you are out of shape? It's possible but not very likely.

If you think of the after life in terms of nearness or distance from God it may be that you will not be able to be close to God if you are not prepared. It may be too intense.

The doctrine of no salvation outside the Church  has nothing to with being mean to people who are not part of the Church. It may just be sage wisdom.
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« Reply #93 on: January 01, 2013, 09:48:45 PM »

Keep in mind the Eastern Paradigm that The Church is where you are healed and transformed. Salvation is not guaranteed by contract. It is a process.

That being the case the doctrine of No Salvation Outside The Church can be compared to military training. Can you be put into intense combat with no training? Could you have been put into the first wave ashore at Normandy with no basic training and survive?  Can you make it if you dont know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, how to take proper cover and if you are out of shape? It's possible but not very likely.

If you think of the after life in terms of nearness or distance from God it may be that you will not be able to be close to God if you are not prepared. It may be too intense.

The doctrine of no salvation outside the Church  has nothing to with being mean to people who are not part of the Church. It may just be sage wisdom.



By intense what do you mean?
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« Reply #94 on: January 01, 2013, 09:51:03 PM »

If you believe that we grow closer to God for all eternity, it does matter.

What you are saying would be like saying "Who cares what cut of beef I get? It's all from the same place!" Two different cuts might nourish you enough to keep you alive, but there is still a difference.

EDIT--I should not have said that Sad   It's more like marriage--you don't do stuff because you expect a reward, but because you want to, because you want to grow closer, because you love them and it makes you and then happy, etc.

I like the beef part though. It was funny. But we shouldn't compare God with a beef. It isn't fair.
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« Reply #95 on: January 01, 2013, 09:56:17 PM »

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I wanted to take it back. After posting it I suddenly thought to myself: "Wait, did I just compare our relationship with God to picking meat?"  Shocked  Noooooooo!
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« Reply #96 on: January 01, 2013, 09:57:37 PM »

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I wanted to take it back. After posting it I suddenly thought to myself: "Wait, did I just compare our relationship with God to picking meat?"  Shocked  Noooooooo!

Well, I like burgers.

God is not to be compared to burgers, true. But I like burgers.
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« Reply #97 on: January 01, 2013, 10:08:31 PM »

Keep in mind the Eastern Paradigm that The Church is where you are healed and transformed. Salvation is not guaranteed by contract. It is a process.

That being the case the doctrine of No Salvation Outside The Church can be compared to military training. Can you be put into intense combat with no training? Could you have been put into the first wave ashore at Normandy with no basic training and survive?  Can you make it if you dont know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, how to take proper cover and if you are out of shape? It's possible but not very likely.

If you think of the after life in terms of nearness or distance from God it may be that you will not be able to be close to God if you are not prepared. It may be too intense.

The doctrine of no salvation outside the Church  has nothing to with being mean to people who are not part of the Church. It may just be sage wisdom.



By intense what do you mean?

Overwhelming.. Too much to bare if you are not prepared for it
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« Reply #98 on: January 01, 2013, 10:12:28 PM »

Keep in mind the Eastern Paradigm that The Church is where you are healed and transformed. Salvation is not guaranteed by contract. It is a process.

That being the case the doctrine of No Salvation Outside The Church can be compared to military training. Can you be put into intense combat with no training? Could you have been put into the first wave ashore at Normandy with no basic training and survive?  Can you make it if you dont know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, how to take proper cover and if you are out of shape? It's possible but not very likely.

If you think of the after life in terms of nearness or distance from God it may be that you will not be able to be close to God if you are not prepared. It may be too intense.

The doctrine of no salvation outside the Church  has nothing to with being mean to people who are not part of the Church. It may just be sage wisdom.



By intense what do you mean?

Overwhelming.. Too much to bare if you are not prepared for it

how overwhelming? did you  have a personal experience?
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« Reply #99 on: January 01, 2013, 10:36:26 PM »

This was written by St. Mark of Ephesus:

St. Mark further explains the state of the departed in this way: "We affirm that neither the righteous have as yet received the fullness of their lot and that blessed condition for which they have prepared themselves here through works, nor have sinners, after death, been led away into the eternal punishment in which they shall be tormented eternally. Rather, both the one and the other must necessarily take place after the Judgment of that last day and the resurrection of all. Now, however, both the one and the other are in places proper to them: the first, in absolute repose and free, are in heaven with the angels and before God Himself, and already as if in Paradise from which Adam fell and often visit us in those temples where they are venerated, and hear those who call on them and pray for them to God, having received from Him this surpassing gift, and through their relics perform miracles and take delight in the vision of God and the illumination sent from Him more perfectly and purely than before, when they were alive; while the second, in their turn, being confined to hell, remain in 'the lowest pit, in darkness and in the shadow of death' (Ps 87:7), as David says, and then Job: 'to the land where the light is darkness' (Job 10:21-22). And the first remain in every joy and rejoicing, already expecting and only not having in their hands the Kingdom and the unutterable good things promised them; and the second, on the contrary, remain in all confinement and inconsolable suffering, like condemned men awaiting the Judge's sentence and foreseeing the torments. Neither have the first yet received the inheritance of the Kingdom and those good things 'which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man' (1 Cor 2:9); nor have the second part yet been given over to eternal torments nor to burning in the unquenchable fire. And this teaching we have as handed down from our Fathers in antiquity and we can easily present it from the Divine Scriptures themselves."

http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/lifeafterdeath.aspx
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« Reply #100 on: January 01, 2013, 11:33:48 PM »

This was written by St. Mark of Ephesus:

St. Mark further explains the state of the departed in this way: "We affirm that neither the righteous have as yet received the fullness of their lot and that blessed condition for which they have prepared themselves here through works, nor have sinners, after death, been led away into the eternal punishment in which they shall be tormented eternally. Rather, both the one and the other must necessarily take place after the Judgment of that last day and the resurrection of all. Now, however, both the one and the other are in places proper to them: the first, in absolute repose and free, are in heaven with the angels and before God Himself, and already as if in Paradise from which Adam fell and often visit us in those temples where they are venerated, and hear those who call on them and pray for them to God, having received from Him this surpassing gift, and through their relics perform miracles and take delight in the vision of God and the illumination sent from Him more perfectly and purely than before, when they were alive; while the second, in their turn, being confined to hell, remain in 'the lowest pit, in darkness and in the shadow of death' (Ps 87:7), as David says, and then Job: 'to the land where the light is darkness' (Job 10:21-22). And the first remain in every joy and rejoicing, already expecting and only not having in their hands the Kingdom and the unutterable good things promised them; and the second, on the contrary, remain in all confinement and inconsolable suffering, like condemned men awaiting the Judge's sentence and foreseeing the torments. Neither have the first yet received the inheritance of the Kingdom and those good things 'which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man' (1 Cor 2:9); nor have the second part yet been given over to eternal torments nor to burning in the unquenchable fire. And this teaching we have as handed down from our Fathers in antiquity and we can easily present it from the Divine Scriptures themselves."

http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/lifeafterdeath.aspx

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« Reply #101 on: January 14, 2013, 09:09:04 AM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?

All ideas are equally true and all will be saved. I believe neither to be true.
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« Reply #102 on: January 14, 2013, 09:19:06 AM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?

All ideas are equally true and all will be saved. I believe neither to be true.

It sure would be nice if they they were true, but they, of course, are not.
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« Reply #103 on: January 14, 2013, 10:14:39 AM »

I'm just a kid, I don't have many opinions on things like this that have solid foundations.  I can get behind a bit of universalism.  For example, I don't believe Ghandi will go to hell for not being a Christian, or that Mother Therese will go to hell for not being Orthodox.  I think that all have a chance of being saved, but it's somehow more direct for Christians.

That's my thought.  I don't agree with total universalism at all.  I believe very much in the OT concept of Olem Haba (picked that one up at the synagogue,) where we will all go and be with God when we die.  Those who loved and served Him will experience pure bliss, and those that hated him will experience pain.  I find this much easier to understand, so it's what I think of when I think of the "hereafter." 

The way I see it, Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the light (as he told us,) and no one comes to the Father except through Him.  Surely, though, if a non-Christian lived a life of charity, tolerance, and love, God will look upon that person with love and compassion (after all, His mercy endures forever.)

But I'm no theologian...
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« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2013, 10:41:22 AM »

The way I see it, Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the light (as he told us,) and no one comes to the Father except through Him.  Surely, though, if a non-Christian lived a life of charity, tolerance, and love, God will look upon that person with love and compassion (after all, His mercy endures forever.)

Amen to that! Well said
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« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2013, 04:31:03 PM »

I'm just a kid, I don't have many opinions on things like this that have solid foundations.  I can get behind a bit of universalism.  For example, I don't believe Ghandi will go to hell for not being a Christian, or that Mother Therese will go to hell for not being Orthodox.  I think that all have a chance of being saved, but it's somehow more direct for Christians.

That's my thought.  I don't agree with total universalism at all.  I believe very much in the OT concept of Olem Haba (picked that one up at the synagogue,) where we will all go and be with God when we die.  Those who loved and served Him will experience pure bliss, and those that hated him will experience pain.  I find this much easier to understand, so it's what I think of when I think of the "hereafter." 

The way I see it, Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the light (as he told us,) and no one comes to the Father except through Him.  Surely, though, if a non-Christian lived a life of charity, tolerance, and love, God will look upon that person with love and compassion (after all, His mercy endures forever.)

But I'm no theologian...
.


I agree with your comments. Especially the last part. After all, Jesus along with something else, said: blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. If he is telling the truth as we believe. Then this refers to everyone that he considered merciful and kind.
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« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2013, 09:51:42 PM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?

All ideas are equally true and all will be saved. I believe neither to be true.
The first part certainly doesn't jive with the thought of most Christian universalists with whom I'm familiar.
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sprtslvr1973
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"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2013, 09:58:30 PM »

what exactly is this thing?

I am totally ignorant about that.

Do you believe this theory.?

All ideas are equally true and all will be saved. I believe neither to be true.
The first part certainly doesn't jive with the thought of most Christian universalists with whom I'm familiar.

OK, well if you know of a different overall understanding, please share
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"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
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