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Author Topic: Converts from Orthodox Church to Catholic or Protestant Churches, Please Share  (Read 12102 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: July 08, 2013, 03:57:40 AM »

I was wondering if anyone was actually going to speak about the OP.
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« Reply #181 on: July 08, 2013, 05:24:46 AM »

I was wondering if anyone was actually going to speak about the OP.

There probably aren't many such people here. Some have left Orthodoxy and become agnostic or atheist; one left to become a Jew, one to become a buddhist, etc. None of those would seem to be what the OP is asking about. And the number who left to become a Catholic or Protestant can probably be counted on one hand, and not all of those are even active posters nowadays.
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« Reply #182 on: July 08, 2013, 07:46:47 AM »

The self-loathing easternizing American converts have simply brought over their anti-papalism from Protestantism.
I haven't met any American converts to Orthodoxy who hate themselves.
Anti-Western Westerners. ...Or rather, anti-Catholic
I'm not sure how you are defining "ANTI-RC," "self-loathing," or even "anti-Western."

These labels fairly characterize all American converts to Orthodoxy [not "marrying into the faith"] in your view?

Is anyone who simply "isn't" RC, in your view, "an ANTI-Roman Catholic",

Is anyone who isn't Orthodox, in your view, anti-Orthodox?
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« Reply #183 on: July 08, 2013, 08:03:20 AM »

And I'd like to add, I think one of the biggest problems is the one-size-fits-all approach to ECism (or at least GCism). As represented, for example, by blanket generalizations I've heard a million times like "When Catholics and Orthodox reunite, some of the Greek Catholics will join the corresponding Orthodox church."

Although, for the record, the aforementioned idea (to wit "When Catholics and Orthodox reunite, the Greek Catholics will join the corresponding Orthodox church.") even if understood as a blanket generality with no exceptions, is easier for me to accept than the idea that, when Catholics and Orthodox reunite, WRO will join the Latin Church. The latter idea was baffling to me when I first heard, and I fear I still haven't been able to wrap my head around it.
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« Reply #184 on: July 08, 2013, 12:57:13 PM »

Most American converts join because of marriage and have no axe to grind.
I have only met one person IRL that joined the Church because of marriage, and I don't think even he would say he joined because of marriage. I'm pretty sure he would say that through marriage he was allowed to be exposed to it for the first time.

Antecdotal to be sure, but I haven't seen any stats from TYF to the contrary.
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« Reply #185 on: July 08, 2013, 01:01:50 PM »

easier for me to accept than the idea that, when Catholics and Orthodox reunite, WRO will join the Latin Church. The latter idea was baffling to me when I first heard, and I fear I still haven't been able to wrap my head around it.

Perhaps because the Eastern Catholics have their own sui iuris churches, whereas the WRO don't? Interesting to note that while "Eastern Rite Catholic" is generally a misnomer, "Western Rite Orthodox" isn't as much.
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« Reply #186 on: July 08, 2013, 01:32:02 PM »

Most American converts join because of marriage and have no axe to grind.
I have only met one person IRL that joined the Church because of marriage, and I don't think even he would say he joined because of marriage. I'm pretty sure he would say that through marriage he was allowed to be exposed to it for the first time.

Antecdotal to be sure, but I haven't seen any stats from TYF to the contrary.

To continue the anecdotal data- I've met plenty of people who joined the Church because of marriage- but with the exception of one (and she converted a year after their marriage with little to no pressure from her spouse to do so) they've all been converts from around my parents' generation or before and all have attended the various Greek parishes I've gone to. For people around my age or younger, converts who aren't converting because they believe the Orthodox Church to be the One True Church have as their reason a desire to reconnect with their x ethnic roots.
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« Reply #187 on: July 08, 2013, 01:55:11 PM »

The self-loathing easternizing American converts have simply brought over their anti-papalism from Protestantism.
I haven't met any American converts to Orthodoxy who hate themselves.
Anti-Western Westerners. ...Or rather, anti-Catholic
I'm not sure how you are defining "ANTI-RC," "self-loathing," or even "anti-Western."

These labels fairly characterize all American converts to Orthodoxy [not "marrying into the faith"] in your view?

Is anyone who simply "isn't" RC, in your view, "an ANTI-Roman Catholic", or are there other specific characteristics one must have to merit such an appellation? If so what exactly are those?

Your descriptions of "American converts" [except those who marry into Orthodoxy] seem to me pretty broad brush, perhaps even dipped in the juice of sour grapes, than an accurate portrayal of any American convert to Orthodoxy [the majority in our parish who are not marrying into the faith] I have personally met.

Is anyone who isn't Orthodox, in your view, anti-Orthodox?
No.

But I'm not the one that seems to be generalizing on and on and on about all or most American converts to Orthodoxy who do not convert simply to marry being  "anti-RC," "anti-Western," "anti-papalist," "self-loathing," & etc. etc.  I really just want to know exactly what is being claimed (if it is not simply some sort of xenophobia).

I'd also like to know if and how in the final analysis it is meaningfully distinct from something like "not RC and willing to say why."

« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 02:25:14 PM by xariskai » Logged

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« Reply #188 on: July 08, 2013, 02:06:34 PM »

It's one thing to say (and I do say) that the Melkite Catholic Church, for example, doesn't have any western-rite parishes and isn't going to create any; but to say that, if Catholics and Orthodox came into full communion, then the already-existing WRO parishes in the Antiochian Orthodox Church would go into the Latin Church? I'm just not seeing it.

easier for me to accept than the idea that, when Catholics and Orthodox reunite, WRO will join the Latin Church. The latter idea was baffling to me when I first heard, and I fear I still haven't been able to wrap my head around it.

Perhaps because the Eastern Catholics have their own sui iuris churches, whereas the WRO don't? Interesting to note that while "Eastern Rite Catholic" is generally a misnomer, "Western Rite Orthodox" isn't as much.

I'm not sure I see the argument you're making.
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« Reply #189 on: July 08, 2013, 02:21:00 PM »

It's one thing to say (and I do say) that the Melkite Catholic Church, for example, doesn't have any western-rite parishes and isn't going to create any; but to say that, if Catholics and Orthodox came into full communion, then the already-existing WRO parishes in the Antiochian Orthodox Church would go into the Latin Church? I'm just not seeing it.

easier for me to accept than the idea that, when Catholics and Orthodox reunite, WRO will join the Latin Church. The latter idea was baffling to me when I first heard, and I fear I still haven't been able to wrap my head around it.

Perhaps because the Eastern Catholics have their own sui iuris churches, whereas the WRO don't? Interesting to note that while "Eastern Rite Catholic" is generally a misnomer, "Western Rite Orthodox" isn't as much.

I'm not sure I see the argument you're making.

I wasn't trying to make an argument. I was just postulating about why the two mergers in question (e.g. Melkite > Antiochian; WRO > Latin) don't seem too analogous, and the one seems "baffling" as you put it.
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« Reply #190 on: July 08, 2013, 05:35:33 PM »

If Catholics and Orthodox ever do reunite, I'll join the Spiritualists, because at least they would have a "ghost" of a chance of surviving!  Grin
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« Reply #191 on: July 08, 2013, 05:41:19 PM »

It's one thing to say (and I do say) that the Melkite Catholic Church, for example, doesn't have any western-rite parishes and isn't going to create any; but to say that, if Catholics and Orthodox came into full communion, then the already-existing WRO parishes in the Antiochian Orthodox Church would go into the Latin Church? I'm just not seeing it.

easier for me to accept than the idea that, when Catholics and Orthodox reunite, WRO will join the Latin Church. The latter idea was baffling to me when I first heard, and I fear I still haven't been able to wrap my head around it.

Perhaps because the Eastern Catholics have their own sui iuris churches, whereas the WRO don't? Interesting to note that while "Eastern Rite Catholic" is generally a misnomer, "Western Rite Orthodox" isn't as much.

I'm not sure I see the argument you're making.

Fr. Joseph Gingrich (of St. Mary of Egypt WR ROCOR Church in Indiana) has said that his impression of what the future would hold, would be that the Western rite vicariate would quite likely become a part of one of the Anglican use ordinariates of the Roman Catholic Church if there were to be a formal intercommunion again. Whatever happened, it would almost certainly retain a similar status to what already has and not be folded into any regular latin rite diocese.

However, that being said, my own view is that by the time there were a formal intercommunion again (assuming this isn't a complete fantasy!!!) we would imagine that the average Latin rite diocese would have to be far more traditional and far more harmonious with that of the Orthodox (or Eastern Catholic) byzantine rite dioceses. So than again, theoretically, it shouldn't necessarily be a problem being part of a regular latin rite diocese.  Pope Benedict was forced to create the Anglican use ordinariates as a separate diocesan entity because the majority of the Latin rite dioceses bishops were hostile to even allowing the anglican use parishes to exist within the regular latin rite dioceses. Such hostility toward Tradition amongst the mainstream of the RC is the ultimate problem that must be overcome.

There was a Melkite greek catholic priest who will remain anonymous who privately favoured the theoretical concept of a Western rite existing within the Melkite church. (A number of Melkite clergy have traditional latin rite RC background.)

The two main problems with it were:

#1 - that the Melkites have their hands full simply preserving the Byzantine rite (they only have forty churches in the USA) and quite likely would run into accusations of latinization or confusion through adopting or allowing this.

#2 - the Latin Church would most likely protest such a move and it may test the limits Melkites being able to maintain their intercommunion with Rome.
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« Reply #192 on: July 10, 2013, 09:49:40 PM »

I was forgetting about this thread. Then I remembered it (obviously).

It's one thing to say (and I do say) that the Melkite Catholic Church, for example, doesn't have any western-rite parishes and isn't going to create any; but to say that, if Catholics and Orthodox came into full communion, then the already-existing WRO parishes in the Antiochian Orthodox Church would go into the Latin Church? I'm just not seeing it.

easier for me to accept than the idea that, when Catholics and Orthodox reunite, WRO will join the Latin Church. The latter idea was baffling to me when I first heard, and I fear I still haven't been able to wrap my head around it.

Perhaps because the Eastern Catholics have their own sui iuris churches, whereas the WRO don't? Interesting to note that while "Eastern Rite Catholic" is generally a misnomer, "Western Rite Orthodox" isn't as much.

I'm not sure I see the argument you're making.

I wasn't trying to make an argument. I was just postulating about why the two mergers in question (e.g. Melkite > Antiochian; WRO > Latin) don't seem too analogous, and the one seems "baffling" as you put it.

OIC. Smiley
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« Reply #193 on: July 11, 2013, 04:05:33 AM »

Forgive me if this question is naïve but:

What possible reason could there be for Melkite Greek-Catholics in the West have Western Rite parishes? If you're in communion with Rome and want the Western Rite...why not go to the Latin Church, the historic keeper of the Western Rites and the dominant sui iuris Catholic Church in the area?  Huh
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« Reply #194 on: July 11, 2013, 05:11:44 AM »

Forgive me if this question is naïve but:

What possible reason could there be for Melkite Greek-Catholics in the West have Western Rite parishes?

We don't.
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« Reply #195 on: July 11, 2013, 05:17:54 AM »

Forgive me if this question is naïve but:

What possible reason could there be for Melkite Greek-Catholics in the West have Western Rite parishes?

We don't.

P.S. I was talking about the Antiochian Orthodox having Western-Rite parishes.
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« Reply #196 on: July 11, 2013, 10:17:28 AM »

Current WRO parishes (as well as current ERO, RC, and EC parishes) should be under autocephalous American church. That's pretty simple.
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