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tweety234
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« on: November 28, 2012, 11:36:02 PM » |
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any thoughts.?
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“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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LBK
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2012, 11:36:44 PM » |
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What do you mean by "second chance"?
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« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 11:37:09 PM by LBK »
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tweety234
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2012, 11:44:57 PM » |
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What do you mean by "second chance"?
Suppose someone isn't save before they die? will they have a second chance after? |
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“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 01:07:20 AM » |
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The question itself is flawed becaue it conceives of salvation incorrectly.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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jmbejdl
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 07:34:10 AM » |
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Salvation in Orthodoxy is an ongoing process, not an event. It continues after death but I agree that the premise of your question is flawed. Seems a rather Protestant question to ask.
James
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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
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genesisone
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 08:54:48 AM » |
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Our salvation isn't complete until after death so there can't really be a "second chance". How does your priest answer this question?
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tweety234
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 06:33:37 PM » |
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The question itself is flawed becaue it conceives of salvation incorrectly.
can you please explain? |
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“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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Justin Kolodziej
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 06:53:01 PM » |
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Are you asking something like if someone never heard the Gospel during life (unbaptized babies, Saudi Arabians, etc), is there a second chance to hear it and convert after death?
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Where even the last two or three are gathered in His name, He is there in their midst.
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tweety234
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 07:02:30 PM » |
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Are you asking something like if someone never heard the Gospel during life (unbaptized babies, Saudi Arabians, etc), is there a second chance to hear it and convert after death?
Is there a second chance after death for everyone to accept him if they choose. Or does it have to be done before death? I am not asking for something specific. But if you want you can answer. If someone has heared of jesus gospel. But doesn't know what to believe because of the confusion, of the interpretations of all the denominations. Will this person or these people, have a second chance to hear what exactly is going on, after death? |
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“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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Maria
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 08:28:52 PM » |
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There is a branch of Univeralism called "Awake Sleepers," which teaches that unbelievers (non-Orthodox) have a second chance. HOCNA, a schismatic sect of orthodoxy, not only teaches this "Awake Sleepers" heresy but also teaches the Name-Worshipping heresy, which was condemned by the EP and the Russian Synod.
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« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 08:29:25 PM by Maria »
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
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Maria
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 08:30:02 PM » |
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Are you asking something like if someone never heard the Gospel during life (unbaptized babies, Saudi Arabians, etc), is there a second chance to hear it and convert after death?
That sounds strangely like Limbo. |
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2012, 10:01:06 PM » |
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The question itself is flawed becaue it conceives of salvation incorrectly.
can you please explain?I think it was well explained by other posters. The question proceeded from an incorrect assumption, that salvation was instantaneous. It is and it isn't. But the time to begin the process is in this life. That is the point of this life. |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2012, 10:09:50 PM » |
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We believe that the judgment of God is inscrutable, deep, infinitely just, infinitely merciful, proceeding from complete and total understanding. And we believe that God, though he does not show personal favoritism, as philanthropos and our savior, is not blindly unbiased to us as human beins but wants to save us. And he has been in the business of bringing about opportunities for salvation from the time he made us until the time he separates our souls from our bodies in death. If we are not saved, it is not because of a divine oversight, but because we have made the effort not to be saved. This is just my opinion, but it's also what I've gathered from Orthodox teaching. I think it applies to all people, Orthodox or not. For God desires the salvation of each person and has power to do so by his own means. It may be someone has never heard of the Gospel of Orthodoxy, but he still has a conscience given him by God for guidance. He can follow that. Jesus Christ is the Truth himself, and he guides everyone who seeks truth to himself. Of course, as he himself said, there are those who become ensnared by various things and fall away.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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Nathanael
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 10:28:05 PM » |
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That's how Gehenna does function:
"Even those who are punished in Gehenna are tormented with the scourging of love. The scourges that result from love – that is, the scourges of those who realize that they have sinned against love – are harder and more bitter than the torments which result from fear.... The power of love works in two ways: it torments those who have sinned, just as happens here on earth; but those who have observed its duties, love gives delight. So it is in Gehenna: the contrition that comes from love is the harsh torment; but in the case of the sons of heaven, delight in this love inebriates their souls." St. Isaac the Syrian
For some people the pain through the meek light of God will be more difficult to endure than the pain in Gehenna.
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"Orthodoxy is the very nature of man" - Father Rafail Noica
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Tzimis
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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 10:54:06 PM » |
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Are you asking something like if someone never heard the Gospel during life (unbaptized babies, Saudi Arabians, etc), is there a second chance to hear it and convert after death?
Is there a second chance after death for everyone to accept him if they choose. Or does it have to be done before death? I am not asking for something specific. But if you want you can answer. If someone has heared of jesus gospel. But doesn't know what to believe because of the confusion, of the interpretations of all the denominations. Will this person or these people, have a second chance to hear what exactly is going on, after death? I cant remember which saint it was that said. "Do not worry about those other people. They have a god who truly loves them equally. It's best to worry about your own salvation before it is lost." It went something like that. The moral of the story is that those people are most likely saved. It is us who need salvation and are in jeopardy of being lost. |
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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tweety234
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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 11:34:29 PM » |
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There is a branch of Univeralism called "Awake Sleepers," which teaches that unbelievers (non-Orthodox) have a second chance. HOCNA, a schismatic sect of orthodoxy, not only teaches this "Awake Sleepers" heresy but also teaches the Name-Worshipping heresy, which was condemned by the EP and the Russian Synod.
what is this name worshipping heresy? |
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“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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tweety234
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 11:38:59 PM » |
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That's how Gehenna does function:
"Even those who are punished in Gehenna are tormented with the scourging of love. The scourges that result from love – that is, the scourges of those who realize that they have sinned against love – are harder and more bitter than the torments which result from fear.... The power of love works in two ways: it torments those who have sinned, just as happens here on earth; but those who have observed its duties, love gives delight. So it is in Gehenna: the contrition that comes from love is the harsh torment; but in the case of the sons of heaven, delight in this love inebriates their souls." St. Isaac the Syrian
For some people the pain through the meek light of God will be more difficult to endure than the pain in Gehenna.
what is this gehenna? |
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“God has no religion.”
― Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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Nathanael
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2012, 06:21:33 AM » |
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what is this gehenna? It's another word for hell. |
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"Orthodoxy is the very nature of man" - Father Rafail Noica
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Justin Kolodziej
Party per fess argent and gules; in chief a Latin cross bottony sable between two lozenges azure; in base a wheel, or.
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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2012, 01:22:29 PM » |
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Are you asking something like if someone never heard the Gospel during life (unbaptized babies, Saudi Arabians, etc), is there a second chance to hear it and convert after death?
That sounds strangely like Limbo. No, in traditional Catholic theology Limbo is a section of Hell with no fire, reserved for those who weren't baptized, didn't qualify for the baptism of blood or desire (extreme traditionalists would say those don't count), and died without committing any sins. Therefore, since baptism was considered necessary for salvation, they couldn't get into Purgatory or Heaven, but it would be unjust for God to punish them beyond the loss of the Beatific Vision common to all due to Original Sin. There was also something called the "limbo of the Patriarchs" which is the part of Hell Jesus descended to in order to preach to the Old Testament faithful, the spirits in prison, so that He could send them (and only them) to Heaven. You may be thinking of that, but usually we meant the first when we said Limbo. This was the common teaching for Roman Catholics from at least St. Thomas Aquinas until very recently, since there was no way anyone unbaptized could enter Heaven. Now the new Catechism of the Catholic Church states the following: 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
So, there does appear to be not just development, but change in doctrine from "Outside the Church no one is saved and Baptism is the only thing that makes one part of the Church" to at the very least "Outside the Church no one is saved, Baptism makes one part of the Church, Christ hopefully has other ways to make someone part of the Church". Confused yet?  |
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Where even the last two or three are gathered in His name, He is there in their midst.
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