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Author Topic: Islamic Anti-Trinitarianism and Monophysite Philiponian Tritheism  (Read 850 times) Average Rating: 0
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minasoliman
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« on: November 28, 2012, 03:51:07 PM »

I found this really interesting article on scribd, I thought it would be of general interest here.  It talks about the possibility that the Quran was refuting some Monophysite Tritheists, which were rampant in some parts of Arabia at the time (it was such an issue, one of our Coptic Popes condemned such groups in the person of one of the patriarchs of Syria at the time and cut communion from the Syrian Chirch until that patriarch passed away).  The article gave the idea that the prophet Mohamed had contact with and learned from "Najrani Christians" who were Tritheists.  The article is also giving the possibility that the Quran might not be as anti-Trinitarian as it is normally thought to be given the linguistic terms used and the people such beliefs were associated with.  Enjoy the read:


http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/75903409
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2012, 03:55:10 PM »

The author seems to think that theopaschite language makes one 'monophysite'.

Interesting article, though. Good find!
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2012, 04:08:18 PM »

The author seems to think that theopaschite language makes one 'monophysite'.
I tend to forgive some scholars for their shoddy research concerning the differences of the Christologies.  Nevertheless, overall, I find it interesting concerning his premises on Islam and Philoponian Tritheism, which was a major heresy the ancient anti-Chalcedonian OO fathers had to fight against.
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2012, 04:15:22 PM »

The author seems to think that theopaschite language makes one 'monophysite'.
I tend to forgive some scholars for their shoddy research concerning the differences of the Christologies.  Nevertheless, overall, I find it interesting concerning his premises on Islam and Philoponian Tritheism, which was a major heresy the ancient anti-Chalcedonian OO fathers had to fight against.
Do you mean ante-Chalcedonian or anti-Chalcedonian (or both)?
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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 04:28:36 PM »

The author seems to think that theopaschite language makes one 'monophysite'.
I tend to forgive some scholars for their shoddy research concerning the differences of the Christologies.  Nevertheless, overall, I find it interesting concerning his premises on Islam and Philoponian Tritheism, which was a major heresy the ancient anti-Chalcedonian OO fathers had to fight against.

I once read a piece by a (secular, I think) scholar who stated that miaphysitism was still going strong in the seventh or eight century Palestine because many documents that were excavated there contained the word 'Theotokos'. The usage of the word 'Theotokos' indicated, to the ignorant scholar, that the author of the document must have been a miaphysite.
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 04:44:31 PM »

The author seems to think that theopaschite language makes one 'monophysite'.
I tend to forgive some scholars for their shoddy research concerning the differences of the Christologies.  Nevertheless, overall, I find it interesting concerning his premises on Islam and Philoponian Tritheism, which was a major heresy the ancient anti-Chalcedonian OO fathers had to fight against.
Do you mean ante-Chalcedonian or anti-Chalcedonian (or both)?

"Anti" NOT "ante"...but I do mean "post"



The author seems to think that theopaschite language makes one 'monophysite'.
I tend to forgive some scholars for their shoddy research concerning the differences of the Christologies.  Nevertheless, overall, I find it interesting concerning his premises on Islam and Philoponian Tritheism, which was a major heresy the ancient anti-Chalcedonian OO fathers had to fight against.

I once read a piece by a (secular, I think) scholar who stated that miaphysitism was still going strong in the seventh or eight century Palestine because many documents that were excavated there contained the word 'Theotokos'. The usage of the word 'Theotokos' indicated, to the ignorant scholar, that the author of the document must have been a miaphysite.

Wow!  That's just sad!  Not even forgivable.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 04:46:57 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 04:46:39 PM »

The guy's christology is all over the place, and his unqualified use of the word 'monophysite' very misleading, but he makes an interesting point regarding the possible response to tri-theism. Indeed, even if his hypothesis is wrong, what the Qur'an is attack is clearly tri-theism, either on account of misunderstanding or deliberate misrepresentation. So exposure to a tri-theist sect makes a lot of sense.


What I'd be interested to learn is whether there was some kind of Ebionite/Nazarite (or an offshoot thereof) presence in Arabia at the time of Muhammad. As you know, the Qur'an does not speak of 'Christians' but of Nasara (Nazarites). Given all the favourable mentions of Nasara in the Qur'an, it would make a lot of sense if Muhammad had had exposure to (or even based his religion on!) an Ebionite-type sect that accepted Jesus as the Messiah, but denied His divinity and emphasised selective observance of Mosaic Law.
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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 05:36:23 PM »

I forgot to ask: Is the term "Nasara" used as a synonym for 'Christians' in Arabic before the Qur'an?
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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 06:00:24 PM »

I found this really interesting article on scribd, I thought it would be of general interest here.  It talks about the possibility that the Quran was refuting some Monophysite Tritheists, which were rampant in some parts of Arabia at the time (it was such an issue, one of our Coptic Popes condemned such groups in the person of one of the patriarchs of Syria at the time and cut communion from the Syrian Chirch until that patriarch passed away).  The article gave the idea that the prophet Mohamed had contact with and learned from "Najrani Christians" who were Tritheists.  The article is also giving the possibility that the Quran might not be as anti-Trinitarian as it is normally thought to be given the linguistic terms used and the people such beliefs were associated with.  Enjoy the read:


http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/75903409


According to some Islamic sources these "Christians of Najran" worshiped Jesus and Mary as two gods beside Allah. While visiting Muhammad in Medina and having a religious debate with him, they (supposedly) said that Allah was the third of the three, the second being Mary.

http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/jesus_miracles_quran2a.html
http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/jesus_miracles_quran2b.html

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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 06:07:46 PM »


What I'd be interested to learn is whether there was some kind of Ebionite/Nazarite (or an offshoot thereof) presence in Arabia at the time of Muhammad. As you know, the Qur'an does not speak of 'Christians' but of Nasara (Nazarites). Given all the favourable mentions of Nasara in the Qur'an, it would make a lot of sense if Muhammad had had exposure to (or even based his religion on!) an Ebionite-type sect that accepted Jesus as the Messiah, but denied His divinity and emphasised selective observance of Mosaic Law.

There's no favourable mention of "Nasrani" in the Qur'an. They are always denounced because of their doctrines.

Muhammad most likely did not know what the title "al Masih" meant. We first encounter this word in the Qur'an in the 3rd chapter, which was devised some time after the Hijrah (migration). The term is treated not as a title, but as Quranic Isa's alternate name, being sometimes attached to the name Isa and sometimes used in its stead.

The writer of the Qur'an taught that Isa came to abolish some rules of the Mosaic Law by making some of the previously unclean food clean for people. (Surah 3:50)
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2012, 06:11:59 PM »

I found this really interesting article on scribd, I thought it would be of general interest here.  It talks about the possibility that the Quran was refuting some Monophysite Tritheists, which were rampant in some parts of Arabia at the time (it was such an issue, one of our Coptic Popes condemned such groups in the person of one of the patriarchs of Syria at the time and cut communion from the Syrian Chirch until that patriarch passed away).  The article gave the idea that the prophet Mohamed had contact with and learned from "Najrani Christians" who were Tritheists.  The article is also giving the possibility that the Quran might not be as anti-Trinitarian as it is normally thought to be given the linguistic terms used and the people such beliefs were associated with.  Enjoy the read:


http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/75903409


According to some Islamic sources these "Christians of Najran" worshiped Jesus and Mary as two gods beside Allah. While visiting Muhammad in Medina and having a religious debate with him, they (supposedly) said that Allah was the third of the three, the second being Mary.

http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/jesus_miracles_quran2a.html
http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/jesus_miracles_quran2b.html


The article did mention a faction of the Tritheist group that worshipped the Theotokos.  I find that very interesting.
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2012, 06:14:00 PM »

I forgot to ask: Is the term "Nasara" used as a synonym for 'Christians' in Arabic before the Qur'an?

Difficult to say!

Some Muslims argue that Nasara was derived from the root of the word al-ansar (helper) in Arabic. Since Isa's disciples/apostles became his helpers in the way of Allah, they were called the helpers. However, this theory is not strong as it is based on the use of an Arabic name for an Israeli group of people following an Israeli prophet.

Some Muslims, on the other hand, say that the Qur'an referred to the People of the Book as Jews (Yahudi) and Nasara because Allah wanted to associate these groups of believers with geographical locations: Yahudi for Judeans and Nasrani for Nazarenes.

I read somewhere that the term Nasara was used by the Syriac Church prior to Islam. It allegedly occurs in some documents.
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2012, 06:38:41 PM »

Sorry not Tritheist group, but an Arabian sect, "Collyridians" which practiced "Mariolotry", "offering cakes to the Theotokos".
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 04:39:48 AM »

Sorry not Tritheist group, but an Arabian sect, "Collyridians" which practiced "Mariolotry", "offering cakes to the Theotokos".

But all evidence suggests the Collyridians had died out by the time of Muhammed, so that seems to be nothing more than apologists for Islam latching on to an earlier heretical sect as 'proof' that the Quran is not in error.

James
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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 10:38:49 AM »

Sorry not Tritheist group, but an Arabian sect, "Collyridians" which practiced "Mariolotry", "offering cakes to the Theotokos".

But all evidence suggests the Collyridians had died out by the time of Muhammed, so that seems to be nothing more than apologists for Islam latching on to an earlier heretical sect as 'proof' that the Quran is not in error.

James

This. The sect was named in Epiphanius' Panarion some 300 years before Muhammed. It would surprise me if they still existed around 620.
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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 03:32:50 PM »

But all evidence suggests the Collyridians had died out by the time of Muhammed, so that seems to be nothing more than apologists for Islam latching on to an earlier heretical sect as 'proof' that the Quran is not in error.

James

Yet the critique of this supposedly Christian doctrine in the Qur'an gives one the impression that ALL Christians were in view. Clearly, the author of the Qur'an had to make his peculiar version of Jesus denounce and repudiate this tenet because he thought that ALL Christians had this tenet and ascribed it directly to Jesus! Thus, the Qur'an is in error no matter what!  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 06:32:23 PM »

But all evidence suggests the Collyridians had died out by the time of Muhammed, so that seems to be nothing more than apologists for Islam latching on to an earlier heretical sect as 'proof' that the Quran is not in error.

James

Yet the critique of this supposedly Christian doctrine in the Qur'an gives one the impression that ALL Christians were in view.
But does the Qur'an say "all" or is that implied by the reader? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 06:53:45 PM »

But does the Qur'an say "all" or is that implied by the reader? Roll Eyes

It's neither. The word ALL is implied by the Quranic author. Allah supposedly questions Jesus and asks Him if He (emphasis on the subject) told the NAS (people-community of Christians) to worship Him and His mother as two deities beside Allah:

And when God shall say - "O Jesus, Son of Mary: hast thou said unto mankind - 'Take me and my mother as two Gods, beside God?"' (Surah 5:116 Rodwell)
Wa-ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa ibna maryama aanta qulta lilnnasi ittakhithoonee waommiya ilahayni min dooni Allahi (Arabic transliteration)

lilnnasi: genitive masculine plural noun http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=116
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