Author Topic: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?  (Read 1216 times)

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Offline walter1234

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Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« on: November 22, 2012, 01:00:41 PM »
OO and EO also venerate the Saints. Are they recognized the same saints in their church?

Offline mike

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2012, 01:14:42 PM »
Since we are separated for about 1.5k years we do not recognize saints glorified in the other communion after separation.

Offline walter1234

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2012, 01:41:12 PM »
Different Saints are venerated in OO and EO. It seems that this may also hinder the merge of OO and EO .

Offline Azul

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2012, 01:43:16 PM »
sometimes :D
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Offline biro

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2012, 01:47:42 PM »
For the very early saints like the Apostles, yes. Those are the same.

For saints after the split between the EO and OO, I don't think so.
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Offline walter1234

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2012, 02:22:23 PM »
I am just thinking a question....

Does OO believe and agree that all recognized saints of EO  are also in heaven/ glory of God now?Does EO believe and agree that all recognized saints of OO are in heaven as well now?

If not, Which Church's recognized Saint is truely the Saints who is in heaven now and we can ask for intercession?



« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 02:28:58 PM by walter1234 »

Offline walter1234

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2012, 02:25:06 PM »
EO ,OO , Catholic Church have different recognized Saints. If we ask the intercession from a wrong saints, would this intercession prayer still effective?


( Wrong Saint: A "saints" who is wrongly recognized by Church, the saints actually are not saved and in hell )
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 02:31:25 PM by walter1234 »

Offline mike

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2012, 02:30:54 PM »
Does OO believe and agree that all recognized saints of EO  are also in heaven/ glory of God now?Does EO believe and agree that all recognized saints of OO are in heaven as well now?

I don't think so.

Quote
If not, Which Church's recognized Saint is truely the Saints who is in heaven now and we can ask for intercession?

Ours! Ours are ourser!

How can you seriously ask such questions, really?

Offline walter1234

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 02:33:34 PM »
Does OO believe and agree that all recognized saints of EO  are also in heaven/ glory of God now?Does EO believe and agree that all recognized saints of OO are in heaven as well now?

I don't think so.

Quote
If not, Which Church's recognized Saint is truely the Saints who is in heaven now and we can ask for intercession?

Ours! Ours are ourser!

How can you seriously ask such questions, really?

Would OO's intercession prayers still effective?

Because they ask the intercessions from the wrong saints.

( That's what I concern. If we ask the intercession from the 'wong saints',like OO's Recognized saints or Catholic's Recognized saints,  will our intercession prayer become meaningless?)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 02:38:21 PM by walter1234 »

Offline Jonathan

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2012, 02:57:22 PM »
I am just thinking a question....

Does OO believe and agree that all recognized saints of EO  are also in heaven/ glory of God now?Does EO believe and agree that all recognized saints of OO are in heaven as well now?

If not, Which Church's recognized Saint is truely the Saints who is in heaven now and we can ask for intercession?

The meaning of someone being a saint is not a declaration that they are in heaven... It is a holding up of that person as an example to the faithful, and saying that they are holy (that is all saint means, holy).

So an EO saint who wrote against the OO position, but did not have all the facts, and wrote meaning well, may certainly be in heaven. But we would never hold up someone who fought against our beliefs as an example to the faithful. Even a contemporary EO saint who thought that the OO are Orthodox would not be venerated officially as a saint in the OO, not because we're saying no, you're wrong, they're not in heaven, but because not being in communion with us they clearly can't be held up as an example for us.

Even different EO and OO jurisdictions have different saints. There are saints the Armenians venerate that the Copts do not, and vice versa. Even very close traditions like the Copts and the Ethiopians have different saints. This is not a barrier to unity. There are just some saints who are venerated by one local tradition that never gained popularity in other regions, and some the Apostles or St. Athanasius are known and venerated throughout the world. It does not prevent the Copts, Ethiopians and Armenians from being united. Even in the monolithic Roman Catholic Church, different countries have different calendars of feasts, with some saints appearing on some and not others. It's just a matter of what days are dedicated to what people that the Church is holding up as examples of holiness. In the RC it is treated as an infallible declaration that they're in heaven, but in Orthodoxy it's just a local Church, or group of local Churches, or all the local Churches in the world, holding up some individuals as examples of holiness. It is something we can even disagree about and still all be perfectly Orthodox and in Communion with one another. Being in error over whether an individual was holy is not a heresy.

Offline walter1234

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 03:01:33 PM »
But if we really ask the intercession for the wrongly recognized saints, Can they still intercede for us , pray for us and help us?

(Wrongly recognized saints means the saints are wrongly recognized by Church. They are not in glory of GOd, THey are actually not saved, like the Saints in Catholic Church)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 03:04:18 PM by walter1234 »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2012, 03:02:38 PM »
No, Walter. This is the wrong way of looking at the question. The saints we have recognized that the EO don't recognize or vice-versa are the saints of that respective communion, and hence are appropriate to ask for the intercession of within that communion. It says nothing of the effectiveness of the prayers, but rather the appropriateness of the saint within the given communion, e.g., EO will not ask the intercessions of St. Severus of Antioch, just like OO will not venerate or ask the intercession of Pope Leo of Rome. But that is not the same as saying "the intercession is meaningless" or something like that, because we don't pass judgment in that way on what goes on outside of our communion. It would be like saying God cannot work outside of our Church, when we all know that God can and does work outside of the boundaries of our communion, or else many of us wouldn't be in the Church in the first place (notice how many converts there are here from Protestantism, Catholicism, etc). So at best we can say "no, we do not recognize this person as a saint in our Church", or "yes, we do recognize this person as a saint", but not "prayers are meaningless". Any supplication that God answers is by definition not meaningless, but that does not mean that we'll accept just anything as appropriate in our respective communions. Does this distinction make sense?  
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 03:03:31 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Jonathan

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 03:29:55 PM »
But if we really ask the intercession for the wrongly recognized saints, Can they still intercede for us , pray for us and help us?

(Wrongly recognized saints means the saints are wrongly recognized by Church. They are not in glory of GOd, THey are actually not saved, like the Saints in Catholic Church)


If we're wrong, and St. Dioscorus did not make it to heaven, I'm sure St. Leo is hearing the requests we offer to St. Dioscorus and is interceding on our behalf before Christ. If the EO made a mistake, woops, and St. Leo for some reason didn't make it to heaven, I'm sure St. Dioscorus is filling in. If a saint in the synaxarium turns out to not have historically existed, but to have been a parable or pious fiction that accidentally got mistaken for history and added in, well, that person is not hearing our requests for intercessions since they don't exist... But I'm sure God looks upon those requests, offered with sincere intentions, and smiles, and I'm sure the whole choir of saints can manage to fill in. Any divisions that existed in earth do not carry over to heaven, there is no animosity or division, on love and communion. We participate in that here, even if we are blind and don't see the extend of the communion we participate in. People can look at the example of a saint even if an account contains factual errors and still benefit. But the most often venerated saints are the very well known ones, people like St. Athanasius, the Apostles, etc., who we can't even imagine there being an error about, they're very well known. The list of who's in heaven is not part of the Orthodox faith, and making an error there won't harm us or divide us from the Church. We shouldn't even be preoccupied with who is in heaven and who is not, we just can't fathom the possibly that the holy ones are not, and so we have no problem asking them to intercede for us. It's not about technicalities and boundaries, it is an experienced love. We don't pick our intercessors, they pick us. We don't go out and say "I like this story, I'm going to have a special relationship with this saint". We find ourselves coming to have a relationship with a particular saint or saints. Don't worry about defining a list, just live in the love of Christ and cling to the Orthodox faith, without which we cannot be saved, not the periphery traditions that have grown up around Orthodoxy.

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2012, 03:34:15 PM »
great answers, brothers!
 :)

it's about loving them and knowing they love us (all of us, not just the ones in the 'right' church).

Offline Didymus

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Re: Do OO and EO venerate the same saints?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2012, 07:51:01 AM »
In theory or in practice?

In theory, after the schism many of our saints are different and some even anathematised each other. Of course all the early ones are the same though.

In practice, many of the laity (and even a good number of the clergy) recognise the sanctity of saints in the other communion and so privately venerate them also.

Personally I see the solution to this as being to venerate the zeal for truth of all the saints who displayed this by refusing to waver on what they understood about the Faith; while likewise venerating those saints who sought peace and harmony by their efforts to reach a mutual agreement on this matter, even if at times it meant that they ended up translating the jurisdiction they were in.
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