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Author Topic: what is wrong with leaving a church when you never really believed in it?  (Read 1796 times) Average Rating: 0
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tweety234
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« on: November 26, 2012, 10:45:33 PM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2012, 11:19:12 PM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

So you must not like Orthodoxy all that much then? Wink
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2012, 11:55:36 PM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

If a church DIDNT say that, or believe it, then i want no part of it, cos why should I, if i dont have to put in the effort to belong.
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2012, 11:57:58 PM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

If a church DIDNT say that, or believe it, then i want no part of it, cos why should I, if i dont have to put in the effort to belong.

What do you mean exactly? is the reason you are part of the church because they anathematize you if you leave?
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 12:07:16 AM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

If a church DIDNT say that, or believe it, then i want no part of it, cos why should I, if i dont have to put in the effort to belong.

What do you mean exactly? is the reason you are part of the church because they anathematize you if you leave?
If I'm understanding him correctly, if a church wasn't zealous about salvation and it alone had salvation, then what's the point of even going?

Of course from any perspective they will say such and such group will not be saved. The difference is does that denomination have any authority to say such a thing. Protestants don't have much authority, if any.

I so wish pasadi67 was around to expound on this. We need another plane analogy.
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 12:07:26 AM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

If a church DIDNT say that, or believe it, then i want no part of it, cos why should I, if i dont have to put in the effort to belong.

What do you mean exactly? is the reason you are part of the church because they anathematize you if you leave?

(For the record, I am not yet a member of the Church, my Baptism is on Sunday)

That is not the reason why I am joining the Church, I am joining the Church because I believe it to be the sole Church that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, established, and that Orthodoxy is the faith that established the universe. However, if the Church were to say, I could achieve salvation equally as good by remaining Catholic, or becoming Protestant, then I would most assurdly be a Protestant, because of how much easier it it, without the fasting, and the dedication of life to Christ. "Where else shall we go Master, for with you is eternal life" (I forget the Gospel this comes from, let alone the verse and chapter, not to mention i got the wording wrong).


EDIT: pretty much what Achronos said above me
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 12:12:42 AM »

My favorite thing a Charasmatic youth pastor said to his group is all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you will be saved, and God will look at Jesus and not you the sinner.

It just begged the question, why even go to Church. And it's that reason why you are seeing a higher turnover rate from the youth. If all you gotta do is believe in Jesus as your savior, no point in going to church.
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 10:04:41 AM »

We know where God is we do not know where God is not. I know we say this a lot but it needs to be remembered.  We do not know the status of someones soul. What we do know is the truth (Orthodoxy) and can compare it to what is taught by other denominations. This we can discuss, like salvation as a work in process not a one time event.
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2012, 11:57:40 AM »

exactly!! we believe we have the fullness of faith. we do not know the fate of anyone's soul. we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2012, 12:18:04 PM »

These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.

We know where God is we do not know where God is not.
we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.

Plus we know pretty well that there isn't any place where God isn't. So, to say that God is also outside the Orthodox Church is to just state the obvious consequence of His Omnipresence. To be the Church is not related to God being or not being there (God is with even His enemies), but what kind of presence is there. God is everywhere, but He is not everywhere in the same way. God was in the Mount of Olives before Jesus went there bodily. But He was there in a very specific bodily way that is far more intense, while Jesus was there, without stopping being there as Spirit.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore it is *not* at more than one place at the same time, it is not divided. It is one body and God is there in a way that He isn't anywhere else. I know that God is bodily in the Orthodox Church and I know that the other communities may have His love and mercy, but they are not His body.



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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2012, 12:31:21 PM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

So you must not like Orthodoxy all that much then? Wink

I don't like church. period.
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2012, 12:47:37 PM »

My favorite thing a Charasmatic youth pastor said to his group is all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you will be saved, and God will look at Jesus and not you the sinner.

It just begged the question, why even go to Church. And it's that reason why you are seeing a higher turnover rate from the youth. If all you gotta do is believe in Jesus as your savior, no point in going to church.

Look, I may have appeared to be judgemental here. I don't mean to offend anyone who might be reading my post. I understand why a person who want to go to church. I personally don't go that often unless I am called by my own conscience. When I go. I do not regret it. But it isn't that often. I have been to other churches as well. And I feel the same thing usually. It grosses me out. Not the church itself. But the behaviour of those who are in charge in it. If it was just a church with no one in it, but only a few candles and a book of prayers. I would probably spend my whole day in it. But I can't stand this, "you are only saved if you worship in a building" notion. Jesus wasn't a building. as far as I am concerned, he was a person. And people worshipped God, simply by spending time with his son Jesus. As far as preaching the Gospel. Jesus didn't have an issue with preaching on the garden of gesthemane or even at his disciples houses. These priests  however are becoming more and more arrogant by the second.
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2012, 01:08:30 PM »

These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.


Not at all. It is entirely possible to know where something is without knowing how far out it's boundaries reach. Examples would include European sailors in the early 16th century sailing to that new land mass in the West- before Magellan there was no way of knowing where South America isn't, but that didn't stop the Portuguese from having a colony in Brazil. Also, if one's family has a lot of land in the countryside and one is visiting for Christmas- while you might know exactly where the residence is, when tasked with cutting down a Christmas tree you might not know at which exact points you might be trespassing on a neighbor's. Knowing where something both is and isn't is easy with smaller objects, such as keys or a car or a house, but the larger something is, the harder it gets to determine it's exact boundaries. Can you look up into the night sky with a high power telescope and point out all the stars that are NOT in the Milky Way?
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2012, 01:13:57 PM »

These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.

We know where God is we do not know where God is not.
we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.

Plus we know pretty well that there isn't any place where God isn't. So, to say that God is also outside the Orthodox Church is to just state the obvious consequence of His Omnipresence. To be the Church is not related to God being or not being there (God is with even His enemies), but what kind of presence is there. God is everywhere, but He is not everywhere in the same way. God was in the Mount of Olives before Jesus went there bodily. But He was there in a very specific bodily way that is far more intense, while Jesus was there, without stopping being there as Spirit.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore it is *not* at more than one place at the same time, it is not divided. It is one body and God is there in a way that He isn't anywhere else. I know that God is bodily in the Orthodox Church and I know that the other communities may have His love and mercy, but they are not His body.


John 3:8
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2012, 02:07:10 PM »

These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.

We know where God is we do not know where God is not.
we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.

Plus we know pretty well that there isn't any place where God isn't. So, to say that God is also outside the Orthodox Church is to just state the obvious consequence of His Omnipresence. To be the Church is not related to God being or not being there (God is with even His enemies), but what kind of presence is there. God is everywhere, but He is not everywhere in the same way. God was in the Mount of Olives before Jesus went there bodily. But He was there in a very specific bodily way that is far more intense, while Jesus was there, without stopping being there as Spirit.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore it is *not* at more than one place at the same time, it is not divided. It is one body and God is there in a way that He isn't anywhere else. I know that God is bodily in the Orthodox Church and I know that the other communities may have His love and mercy, but they are not His body.



That is not what is meant by my quote. We know where God grace works, it is in the Orthodox Church, we do not know where Gods grace is not working.  To say God will not work outside of the Church is limiting God. This is just my humble opinion.
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2012, 03:27:23 PM »

These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.

We know where God is we do not know where God is not.
we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.

Plus we know pretty well that there isn't any place where God isn't. So, to say that God is also outside the Orthodox Church is to just state the obvious consequence of His Omnipresence. To be the Church is not related to God being or not being there (God is with even His enemies), but what kind of presence is there. God is everywhere, but He is not everywhere in the same way. God was in the Mount of Olives before Jesus went there bodily. But He was there in a very specific bodily way that is far more intense, while Jesus was there, without stopping being there as Spirit.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore it is *not* at more than one place at the same time, it is not divided. It is one body and God is there in a way that He isn't anywhere else. I know that God is bodily in the Orthodox Church and I know that the other communities may have His love and mercy, but they are not His body.



That is not what is meant by my quote. We know where God grace works, it is in the Orthodox Church, we do not know where Gods grace is not working.  To say God will not work outside of the Church is limiting God. This is just my humble opinion.
I think thats what i said, at least thats what i meant.
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2012, 03:38:46 PM »

These are rigorously impossible. If one does not know where something isn't, necessarily one does not know where it is.

We know where God is we do not know where God is not.
we know where the Holy Spirit is not where He is not.

Plus we know pretty well that there isn't any place where God isn't. So, to say that God is also outside the Orthodox Church is to just state the obvious consequence of His Omnipresence. To be the Church is not related to God being or not being there (God is with even His enemies), but what kind of presence is there. God is everywhere, but He is not everywhere in the same way. God was in the Mount of Olives before Jesus went there bodily. But He was there in a very specific bodily way that is far more intense, while Jesus was there, without stopping being there as Spirit.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Therefore it is *not* at more than one place at the same time, it is not divided. It is one body and God is there in a way that He isn't anywhere else. I know that God is bodily in the Orthodox Church and I know that the other communities may have His love and mercy, but they are not His body.


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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2012, 03:40:15 PM »

My favorite thing a Charasmatic youth pastor said to his group is all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you will be saved, and God will look at Jesus and not you the sinner.

It just begged the question, why even go to Church. And it's that reason why you are seeing a higher turnover rate from the youth. If all you gotta do is believe in Jesus as your savior, no point in going to church.

Look, I may have appeared to be judgemental here. I don't mean to offend anyone who might be reading my post. I understand why a person who want to go to church. I personally don't go that often unless I am called by my own conscience. When I go. I do not regret it. But it isn't that often. I have been to other churches as well. And I feel the same thing usually. It grosses me out. Not the church itself. But the behaviour of those who are in charge in it. If it was just a church with no one in it, but only a few candles and a book of prayers. I would probably spend my whole day in it. But I can't stand this, "you are only saved if you worship in a building" notion. Jesus wasn't a building. as far as I am concerned, he was a person. And people worshipped God, simply by spending time with his son Jesus. As far as preaching the Gospel. Jesus didn't have an issue with preaching on the garden of gesthemane or even at his disciples houses. These priests  however are becoming more and more arrogant by the second.

I have no idea which jurisdiction you belong to nor do I know the extent of your knowledge and practice of Orthodoxy. However, even at the risk of sounding judgmental, I fear that you exhibit very little knowledge and appreciation of Orthodox Christianity, if not Christianity itself. May I suggest the following approach?

Start reading the Bible regularly (keeping up with the daily appointed readings is not a bad idea to start).

Start going to church regularly, to include weekday services and Saturday vespers.

Start a regular daily prayer routine (morning and evening prayers to start).

Keep all appointed fasts, not forgetting to intensify your prayer life and to give alms.

Prepare yourself for Holy Communion, to include partaking of the Mystery of Penance as often as your father confessor requires.

Take Holy Communion regularly.

Educate yourself by taking advantage of Catechumen Classes and reading books.

After a year or so of the above approach, come back and tell us how much or little you appreciate the Church.
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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2012, 11:34:34 PM »

The nice thing about showing up at a different church every week is that EVERYBODY is HAPPY to see you and treats you really nice.

Once you get embedded, then it all gets serious.   I tried that for several months, it was kind of hilarious.  After church EVERYBODY was shaking my hand, wanting to know all about us, telling us about themselves.... Heck we even got to go to the front of the line during food fellowship afterwards!

Of course, we also heard disgruntled things about people who "use to come" critiques of other members and all kind of gossip.   But we were sure welcomed!

It's kind of like a bar.   If a person who is not a regular shows up, everybody is super nice.  Until they become a regular.... Then its same ol same ol.   The only difference is at church, if you leave, you are often doomed.

So what the OP says is true.   So happy to see new people, and when the new becomes old, critical judgment and rules apply.

There have been TWO times this has not happened.

Once at a Russian Orthodox Church
Once at a Conservative Mennonite Church

It happened at just about every other church I can think of.   Messianic Jews, Mennonite, Orthodox...   You are pretty much considered "doomed" if you leave any of them.

See to many EO, since I am viewed as "juiced in" it leaves me for more critique.   But my wife's home church (where she grew up), considers me to be "okay", even though I won't partake in their sacraments or be baptized nor become a "member" of their church.

The Messianics consider this differently. (very interesting bunch BTW).   Nazarite Christians date WAY back, if not to the inception of original church in 33 A.D.   They consider me "confused but with good intent", perhaps they are right.
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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2012, 11:40:45 PM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

So you must not like Orthodoxy all that much then? Wink

I don't like church. period.

How sad to be you.
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« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2012, 11:48:59 PM »

Tweety, I think we all get tired and frustrated sometimes. You may have had some bad times in church. Don't give up, though. We all need spiritual guidance, reinforcement, and in fact it is a Commandment to worship God. Also, if you have been baptized you can take the Eucharist. This and Confession will help most of all.
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2012, 12:20:20 AM »

My favorite thing a Charasmatic youth pastor said to his group is all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you will be saved, and God will look at Jesus and not you the sinner.

It just begged the question, why even go to Church. And it's that reason why you are seeing a higher turnover rate from the youth. If all you gotta do is believe in Jesus as your savior, no point in going to church.

Look, I may have appeared to be judgemental here. I don't mean to offend anyone who might be reading my post. I understand why a person who want to go to church. I personally don't go that often unless I am called by my own conscience. When I go. I do not regret it. But it isn't that often. I have been to other churches as well. And I feel the same thing usually. It grosses me out. Not the church itself. But the behaviour of those who are in charge in it. If it was just a church with no one in it, but only a few candles and a book of prayers. I would probably spend my whole day in it. But I can't stand this, "you are only saved if you worship in a building" notion. Jesus wasn't a building. as far as I am concerned, he was a person. And people worshipped God, simply by spending time with his son Jesus. As far as preaching the Gospel. Jesus didn't have an issue with preaching on the garden of gesthemane or even at his disciples houses. These priests  however are becoming more and more arrogant by the second.

Are you Greek? If you are, you should know that when our God-bearing ancestors emerged from the catacombs, the first thing they did was build holy places to serve for the worship of God.

Our Lord, the Incarnate Word and Second Person of the Trinity (as opposed to "that Jesus dude") did not think highly of the saducees and the pharisees, yet he worshipped in the Temple of Jerusalem, the holy place appointed by God for his worship: a place organised, serviced and maintained by priests.

This does not mean that Christ should not be preached in gardens and houses, but should cause you to pause and think about why you are so quick to heap scorn on the practice of praying in "churches", under the leadership of "priests" (the true Church, of course, is the Spirit-filled hearts and bodies of Christians, and the true priest is our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ).
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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2012, 12:56:41 AM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

Very few denominations say anything like that.
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« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2012, 02:12:20 AM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

So you must not like Orthodoxy all that much then? Wink

I don't like church. period.

You're not from Salt Lake City, UT by any chance?
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« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2012, 08:17:33 PM »

My favorite thing a Charasmatic youth pastor said to his group is all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you will be saved, and God will look at Jesus and not you the sinner.

It just begged the question, why even go to Church. And it's that reason why you are seeing a higher turnover rate from the youth. If all you gotta do is believe in Jesus as your savior, no point in going to church.

Look, I may have appeared to be judgemental here. I don't mean to offend anyone who might be reading my post. I understand why a person who want to go to church. I personally don't go that often unless I am called by my own conscience. When I go. I do not regret it. But it isn't that often. I have been to other churches as well. And I feel the same thing usually. It grosses me out. Not the church itself. But the behaviour of those who are in charge in it. If it was just a church with no one in it, but only a few candles and a book of prayers. I would probably spend my whole day in it. But I can't stand this, "you are only saved if you worship in a building" notion. Jesus wasn't a building. as far as I am concerned, he was a person. And people worshipped God, simply by spending time with his son Jesus. As far as preaching the Gospel. Jesus didn't have an issue with preaching on the garden of gesthemane or even at his disciples houses. These priests  however are becoming more and more arrogant by the second.

Are you Greek? If you are, you should know that when our God-bearing ancestors emerged from the catacombs, the first thing they did was build holy places to serve for the worship of God.

Our Lord, the Incarnate Word and Second Person of the Trinity (as opposed to "that Jesus dude") did not think highly of the saducees and the pharisees, yet he worshipped in the Temple of Jerusalem, the holy place appointed by God for his worship: a place organised, serviced and maintained by priests.

This does not mean that Christ should not be preached in gardens and houses, but should cause you to pause and think about why you are so quick to heap scorn on the practice of praying in "churches", under the leadership of "priests" (the true Church, of course, is the Spirit-filled hearts and bodies of Christians, and the true priest is our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ).

Lately I can't pray at all. Usually though, The reason I can't pray in churches, is because, I can't pray on demand. I can't do anything of a spiritual nature on demand. There timing is not my timing.
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2012, 08:22:43 PM »

The nice thing about showing up at a different church every week is that EVERYBODY is HAPPY to see you and treats you really nice.

Once you get embedded, then it all gets serious.   I tried that for several months, it was kind of hilarious.  After church EVERYBODY was shaking my hand, wanting to know all about us, telling us about themselves.... Heck we even got to go to the front of the line during food fellowship afterwards!

Of course, we also heard disgruntled things about people who "use to come" critiques of other members and all kind of gossip.   But we were sure welcomed!

It's kind of like a bar.   If a person who is not a regular shows up, everybody is super nice.  Until they become a regular.... Then its same ol same ol.   The only difference is at church, if you leave, you are often doomed.

So what the OP says is true.   So happy to see new people, and when the new becomes old, critical judgment and rules apply.

There have been TWO times this has not happened.

Once at a Russian Orthodox Church
Once at a Conservative Mennonite Church

It happened at just about every other church I can think of.   Messianic Jews, Mennonite, Orthodox...   You are pretty much considered "doomed" if you leave any of them.

See to many EO, since I am viewed as "juiced in" it leaves me for more critique.   But my wife's home church (where she grew up), considers me to be "okay", even though I won't partake in their sacraments or be baptized nor become a "member" of their church.

The Messianics consider this differently. (very interesting bunch BTW).   Nazarite Christians date WAY back, if not to the inception of original church in 33 A.D.   They consider me "confused but with good intent", perhaps they are right.

Most of us are confused. Some know it. Some are in denial of it. Don't beat yourself up over it. This is exactly though what I don't like about the church. They all think they know, God's plans for everyone. They are saved. Everyone else is doomed. All denominations have this attitude, and they wonder why more and more people get out of the church, first chance they get.
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2012, 09:07:15 PM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

So you must not like Orthodoxy all that much then? Wink


I don't like church. period.

You're not from Salt Lake City, UT by any chance?

No buddy why? I am in Canada. Although I am Greek
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« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2012, 11:32:21 PM »

My favorite thing a Charasmatic youth pastor said to his group is all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you will be saved, and God will look at Jesus and not you the sinner.

It just begged the question, why even go to Church. And it's that reason why you are seeing a higher turnover rate from the youth. If all you gotta do is believe in Jesus as your savior, no point in going to church.

They don't leave church because they can be saved even without it. They leave it because they don't even believe. Most people don't have faith in anything these days. I am also one of the doubters. Just Like thomas. I am the last person that will ever realize what is going on regarding religion. But I am not fanatical. I believe in God. And the Gospel of Jesus, looks cool although not easy. But all this church thing is beyond me.
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« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2012, 11:36:07 PM »

Quote
I am also one of the doubters. Just Like thomas.

Yet Thomas exclaimed: My Lord and my God! on seeing the risen Lord.

Tweety, there is much about Orthodoxy and Christianity you seemed to have missed.
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« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2012, 11:36:24 PM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

If a church DIDNT say that, or believe it, then i want no part of it, cos why should I, if i dont have to put in the effort to belong.

What do you mean exactly? is the reason you are part of the church because they anathematize you if you leave?

Actually you anathematize yourself. The Church just recognizes your actions.
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« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2012, 11:46:39 PM »

Quote
I am also one of the doubters. Just Like thomas.

Yet Thomas exclaimed: My Lord and my God! on seeing the risen Lord.

Tweety, there is much about Orthodoxy and Christianity you seemed to have missed.

He was the last one though of all. Wasn't he?
That's what i am saying.
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« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2012, 11:55:02 PM »

Quote
I am also one of the doubters. Just Like thomas.

Yet Thomas exclaimed: My Lord and my God! on seeing the risen Lord.

Tweety, there is much about Orthodoxy and Christianity you seemed to have missed.

He was the last one though of all. Wasn't he?
That's what i am saying.

Put yourself in Thomas' shoes. He's a carpenter, a tradesman, a practical man. The others come up to him and tell him that they've seen the risen Christ. He's having trouble getting his head around the idea. I'll believe it when I see it. And, when the time came, he did. Then, Christ praises Thomas for his confession, and follows up with Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed.

There is a great deal of wisdom and teaching in the hymnography for the feast of Thomas' Sunday. Here's a link to it:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ThomasSun.htm



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« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2012, 01:02:15 AM »

My favorite thing a Charasmatic youth pastor said to his group is all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you will be saved, and God will look at Jesus and not you the sinner.

It just begged the question, why even go to Church. And it's that reason why you are seeing a higher turnover rate from the youth. If all you gotta do is believe in Jesus as your savior, no point in going to church.

They don't leave church because they can be saved even without it. They leave it because they don't even believe. Most people don't have faith in anything these days. I am also one of the doubters. Just Like thomas. I am the last person that will ever realize what is going on regarding religion. But I am not fanatical. I believe in God. And the Gospel of Jesus, looks cool although not easy. But all this church thing is beyond me.

I'm sure the Holy Apostle Thomas will forgive you, since your are ignorant of who he was.
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« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2012, 01:14:31 AM »

To me it sounds arrogant how every denomination things unless you are a member of their church you can have no salvation. And for those who were never members of their church, they say that there is salvation if they repent. But once they are members of this church, if they choose to leave they are lost forever.

So you must not like Orthodoxy all that much then? Wink


I don't like church. period.

You're not from Salt Lake City, UT by any chance?

No buddy why? I am in Canada. Although I am Greek

My apologies.   angel
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« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2012, 09:25:28 AM »

Most of us are confused. Some know it. Some are in denial of it. Don't beat yourself up over it. This is exactly though what I don't like about the church. They all think they know, God's plans for everyone. They are saved. Everyone else is doomed. All denominations have this attitude, and they wonder why more and more people get out of the church, first chance they get.

You really do not know the Orthodox faith if you believe this.

We have been saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. We are being saved by our active participation in the Sacramental life of the Church as a work of love manifesting the fruits of God's Grace.  We will be saved if we remain in him at His glorious Second Coming and final judgment.

We do not have s special moment where we are saved regardless what we do in the future, and we should never judge the condition of someones soul.
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« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2012, 06:50:39 PM »

Quote
I am also one of the doubters. Just Like thomas.

Yet Thomas exclaimed: My Lord and my God! on seeing the risen Lord.

Tweety, there is much about Orthodoxy and Christianity you seemed to have missed.

He was the last one though of all. Wasn't he?
That's what i am saying.

Put yourself in Thomas' shoes. He's a carpenter, a tradesman, a practical man. The others come up to him and tell him that they've seen the risen Christ. He's having trouble getting his head around the idea. I'll believe it when I see it. And, when the time came, he did. Then, Christ praises Thomas for his confession, and follows up with Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed.

There is a great deal of wisdom and teaching in the hymnography for the feast of Thomas' Sunday. Here's a link to it:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ThomasSun.htm






I already put myself in the shoes of Thomas. Because I am just like him. Although twice worse. That is just what I said.
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« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2012, 06:55:21 PM »

My favorite thing a Charasmatic youth pastor said to his group is all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you will be saved, and God will look at Jesus and not you the sinner.

It just begged the question, why even go to Church. And it's that reason why you are seeing a higher turnover rate from the youth. If all you gotta do is believe in Jesus as your savior, no point in going to church.

They don't leave church because they can be saved even without it. They leave it because they don't even believe. Most people don't have faith in anything these days. I am also one of the doubters. Just Like thomas. I am the last person that will ever realize what is going on regarding religion. But I am not fanatical. I believe in God. And the Gospel of Jesus, looks cool although not easy. But all this church thing is beyond me.

I'm sure the Holy Apostle Thomas will forgive you, since your are ignorant of who he was.

I Only said he was a doubter. I am one too. I did not offend him. I like him as a character you know.
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« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2012, 06:55:50 PM »

Quote
I am also one of the doubters. Just Like thomas.

Yet Thomas exclaimed: My Lord and my God! on seeing the risen Lord.

Tweety, there is much about Orthodoxy and Christianity you seemed to have missed.

He was the last one though of all. Wasn't he?
That's what i am saying.

Put yourself in Thomas' shoes. He's a carpenter, a tradesman, a practical man. The others come up to him and tell him that they've seen the risen Christ. He's having trouble getting his head around the idea. I'll believe it when I see it. And, when the time came, he did. Then, Christ praises Thomas for his confession, and follows up with Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed.

There is a great deal of wisdom and teaching in the hymnography for the feast of Thomas' Sunday. Here's a link to it:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ThomasSun.htm






I already put myself in the shoes of Thomas. Because I am just like him. Although twice worse. That is just what I said.

Have you taken the time to look at the service I linked to?
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« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2012, 09:12:41 PM »

In the Church we are all one and Christ is the head

"The head of the Church is Christ and we humans, we Christians, are the body. The Apostle Paul says: He is the head of the body, of the Church. (Col 1:18)

The Church and Christ are one. The body cannot exist without its head. The body of the Church is nourished, sanctified and lives with Christ. He is the Lord, omnipotent, omniscient, everywhere present and filling all things, our staff, our friend, our brother: the pillar and sure foundation of the Church. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the basis - everything. Without Christ the Church does not exist. Christ is the Bridegroom; each individual soul is the Bride.

Christ united the body of the Church with heaven and with earth: with angels, men and all created things, with all of God’s creation with the animals and birds, with each tiny wild flower and each microscopic insect. The Church thus became the fullness of Him who fills all in all, (Eph. 1:23) that is, of Christ. Everything is in Christ and with Christ. This is the mystery of the Church.

Christ is revealed in that unity between His love and ourselves: the Church. On my own I am not the Church, but together with you. All together we are the Church. All are incorporated in the Church. We are all one and Christ is the head. One body, one body of Christ: You are the body of Christ and individually members of it. (1 Cor. 12:27) We are all one because God is our Father and is everywhere. When we experience this we are in the Church. This is our Lord’s wish for all the members of the Church as expressed in His great high-priestly prayer: that they may be one. (John 17:11,22) But that’s something you can only understand through grace. We experience the joy of unity, of love, and we become one with everyone. There is nothing more magnificent!

The important thing is for us to enter into the Church - to unite ourselves with our fellow men, with the joys and sorrows of each and everyone, to feel that they are our own, to pray for everyone, to have care for their salvation, to forget about ourselves, to do everything for them just as Christ did for us. In the Church we become one unfortunate, suffering and sinful soul.

No one should wish to be saved alone without all others being save. It is a mistake for someone to pray for himself, that he himself may be saved. We must love others and pray that no soul be lost, that all may enter into the Church. That is what counts. And it is with this desire one should leave the world to retire to a monastery or to the desert.

When we set ourselves apart from others, we are not Christians. We are true Christians when we have a profound sense that we are members of the mystical body of Christ, of the Church, in an unbroken relationship of love - when we live united in Christ, that is, when we experience unity in His Church with a sense of oneness. This is why Christ prays to His Father saying, that they may be one. He repeats the prayer again and again and the apostles emphasise it everywhere. This is the most profound aspect, the most exalted meaning, of the Church."

Elder Porphyrios
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« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2012, 10:05:15 PM »

Outside of the church you're absolute your own authority, your're your own master. You can think of and believe in God and Jesus in the individual way you want, and so you make your own image of God/Jesus. Therefore it's not enough just to believe in Jesus, we have to believe in the right way, so that we may have an idea who God is, what he expect from us, to experience his meek light etc. That's the way of humility. Our Church was not formed over the centuries by greedy and unexperienced clergyman, but by Christ, the Apostles, the apostolic fathers, church fahters, by SAINTS (people who reached a high spiritual level, who had the closest relationship with God and purified mind). And the salvation remains a mystery- for people outside and inside the church. That's the teaching of our church.

I couldn't understand the church either. It was enough for me to read daily the morning and evening prayers from the prayer book, to read some orthodox books and to confess my sins regularly (that helped me very much) so that I could understand the mystery and the holiness of the church more and more. We have not to become zealots so that we can experience what the church is, but we have to start a spiritual life, to sacrifice at least fifteen minutes daily for God, for prayer.
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« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2012, 05:11:58 PM »

In the Church we are all one and Christ is the head

"The head of the Church is Christ and we humans, we Christians, are the body. The Apostle Paul says: He is the head of the body, of the Church. (Col 1:18)

The Church and Christ are one. The body cannot exist without its head. The body of the Church is nourished, sanctified and lives with Christ. He is the Lord, omnipotent, omniscient, everywhere present and filling all things, our staff, our friend, our brother: the pillar and sure foundation of the Church. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the basis - everything. Without Christ the Church does not exist. Christ is the Bridegroom; each individual soul is the Bride.

Christ united the body of the Church with heaven and with earth: with angels, men and all created things, with all of God’s creation with the animals and birds, with each tiny wild flower and each microscopic insect. The Church thus became the fullness of Him who fills all in all, (Eph. 1:23) that is, of Christ. Everything is in Christ and with Christ. This is the mystery of the Church.

Christ is revealed in that unity between His love and ourselves: the Church. On my own I am not the Church, but together with you. All together we are the Church. All are incorporated in the Church. We are all one and Christ is the head. One body, one body of Christ: You are the body of Christ and individually members of it. (1 Cor. 12:27) We are all one because God is our Father and is everywhere. When we experience this we are in the Church. This is our Lord’s wish for all the members of the Church as expressed in His great high-priestly prayer: that they may be one. (John 17:11,22) But that’s something you can only understand through grace. We experience the joy of unity, of love, and we become one with everyone. There is nothing more magnificent!

The important thing is for us to enter into the Church - to unite ourselves with our fellow men, with the joys and sorrows of each and everyone, to feel that they are our own, to pray for everyone, to have care for their salvation, to forget about ourselves, to do everything for them just as Christ did for us. In the Church we become one unfortunate, suffering and sinful soul.

No one should wish to be saved alone without all others being save. It is a mistake for someone to pray for himself, that he himself may be saved. We must love others and pray that no soul be lost, that all may enter into the Church. That is what counts. And it is with this desire one should leave the world to retire to a monastery or to the desert.

When we set ourselves apart from others, we are not Christians. We are true Christians when we have a profound sense that we are members of the mystical body of Christ, of the Church, in an unbroken relationship of love - when we live united in Christ, that is, when we experience unity in His Church with a sense of oneness. This is why Christ prays to His Father saying, that they may be one. He repeats the prayer again and again and the apostles emphasise it everywhere. This is the most profound aspect, the most exalted meaning, of the Church."

Elder Porphyrios

Would you please provide a source for you quote? Thanks, Carl Kraeff
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« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2012, 12:13:15 AM »

Outside of the church you're absolute your own authority, your're your own master.
Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
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« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2012, 03:04:08 PM »

Quote
Would you please provide a source for you quote? Thanks, Carl Kraeff

http://www.sprint.net.au/~corners/Oct06/ElderPorphyrios.htm
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« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2012, 07:46:56 PM »

No one should wish to be saved alone without all others being save. It is a mistake for someone to pray for himself, that he himself may be saved. We must love others and pray that no soul be lost,

Out of all you said. I agree with only the above statements. We should wish all souls to be saved, and none to be lost.

Does that mean, I have to put up with all the gossip that is going on in the church, from the depth to the exit? I don't think so.
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« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2012, 08:25:01 PM »

It is wrong to leave a church if it is the truth.  I always tell myself "I could be wrong".

Your belief should follow the truth always.
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