Author Topic: What types of Greek are there?  (Read 2236 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,942
What types of Greek are there?
« on: November 26, 2012, 03:15:15 PM »
I am so confused

What Greek was the Septuagint in? What Greek was the NT written in? What Greek did Saint John Chrysostom speak? What Greek was spoken in the later Ecumenical Councils?
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Online Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,024
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2012, 03:20:51 PM »
Koine, koine, koine and koine.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,286
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2012, 03:28:29 PM »
Koine, koine, koine and koine.
Koine. Koine. Middle Greek (but he wrote and sermonized in Attic(ized)), "Byzantine" Greek.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,942
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2012, 03:34:46 PM »
Do we know exactly how Koine Greek was actually pronounced?
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Online Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,024
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2012, 03:35:52 PM »
Koine, koine, koine and koine.
Koine. Koine. Middle Greek (but he wrote and sermonized in Attic(ized)), "Byzantine" Greek.

My Greek grammar book tell me that Middle Greek started from ~600 AD, which would include the Sixth and Seventh Ecumenical Councils. Some other works however say that middle greek was used from 330 onwards. I guess it would depend on which date you use.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Online Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,024
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2012, 03:37:06 PM »
Do we know exactly how Koine Greek was actually pronounced?

Yes. It sounded very much like middle and modern Greek.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,942
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2012, 03:41:11 PM »
ah okay

this reminds me, there was some website that had pictures of many manuscripts maybe it was of the septuagint and also the new testament I cannot remember the name of the website though, does any of it ring a bell?

thank you for your help!
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,942
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2012, 03:47:37 PM »
nevermind that though,

is this in koine greek?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/End_of_2_Peter_and_Beginning_of_1_John_in_Alexandrinus.JPG



Finally, where/how does one learn genuine koine greek?
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Online Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,024
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2012, 03:51:16 PM »
nevermind that though,

is this in koine greek?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/End_of_2_Peter_and_Beginning_of_1_John_in_Alexandrinus.JPG

Yes.

Finally, where/how does one learn genuine koine greek?

If you know Attic (aka Classical Greek) you know Koine.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,731
  • Faith: Orthodox. Truly, madly, deeply
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2012, 03:53:56 PM »
Do we know exactly how Koine Greek was actually pronounced?

Yes. It sounded very much like middle and modern Greek.

It did? What about Erasmian pronunciation?
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Online Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,024
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2012, 03:56:26 PM »
Do we know exactly how Koine Greek was actually pronounced?

Yes. It sounded very much like middle and modern Greek.

It did? What about Erasmian pronunciation?

Erasmian pronunciation is for Attic Greek, not Koine. And even then I doubt whether the Erasmian pronunciation was ever used, it is 'reconstructed' in the Renaissance and it sounds plain awful.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 03:57:07 PM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,942
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2012, 03:59:18 PM »
I do not really care to learn classical/attic greek, only koine (i have no desire to read the illiad or homer or whatever!!!)

so is there any trusted places to learn it? or am i going to be stuck with the classical/attic greek and its controversies?
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Online Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,024
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2012, 04:02:57 PM »
I do not really care to learn classical/attic greek, only koine (i have no desire to read the illiad or homer or whatever!!!)

I learned classical Greek and I can read Koine easily. It's not any more different as British English is from American English.


« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 04:03:12 PM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,731
  • Faith: Orthodox. Truly, madly, deeply
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2012, 04:03:33 PM »
Do we know exactly how Koine Greek was actually pronounced?

Yes. It sounded very much like middle and modern Greek.

It did? What about Erasmian pronunciation?

Erasmian pronunciation is for Attic Greek, not Koine. And even then I doubt whether the Erasmian pronunciation was ever used, it is 'reconstructed' in the Renaissance and it sounds plain awful.

My university taught me Koine Greek with Erasmian pronunciation. Every kind of pronunciation of dead languages in reconstructed.
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,942
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2012, 04:08:07 PM »
I do not really care to learn classical/attic greek, only koine (i have no desire to read the illiad or homer or whatever!!!)

I learned classical Greek and I can read Koine easily. It's not any more different as British English is from American English.




i just sort of want to stay away from classical because it might be pronounced differently

I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,942
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2012, 04:08:40 PM »
but anyway, where does a poor man learn koine greek?  :P
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Online Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,024
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2012, 04:16:33 PM »
I do not really care to learn classical/attic greek, only koine (i have no desire to read the illiad or homer or whatever!!!)

I learned classical Greek and I can read Koine easily. It's not any more different as British English is from American English.




i just sort of want to stay away from classical because it might be pronounced differently



You're not supposed to really pronounce it. Are you going to hold conversations in Koine or something? It's about reading and translating I suppose. And no, AFAIK there's no seperate Koine class.

but anyway, where does a poor man learn koine greek?  :P

I can't answer that one. I learned Greek in high school but I assume you're too old for that  :P
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 04:17:23 PM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,942
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2012, 04:19:41 PM »
I do not really care to learn classical/attic greek, only koine (i have no desire to read the illiad or homer or whatever!!!)

I learned classical Greek and I can read Koine easily. It's not any more different as British English is from American English.




i just sort of want to stay away from classical because it might be pronounced differently



You're not supposed to really pronounce it. Are you going to hold conversations in Koine or something? It's about reading and translating I suppose. And no, AFAIK there's no seperate Koine class.

how can one read without pronouncing it in ones head!?

and okay

now where could one learn classical (non  Erasmian) greek without having to spend a thousand dollars? :P
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,942
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2012, 04:21:05 PM »
I do not really care to learn classical/attic greek, only koine (i have no desire to read the illiad or homer or whatever!!!)

I learned classical Greek and I can read Koine easily. It's not any more different as British English is from American English.




i just sort of want to stay away from classical because it might be pronounced differently



You're not supposed to really pronounce it. Are you going to hold conversations in Koine or something? It's about reading and translating I suppose. And no, AFAIK there's no seperate Koine class.

but anyway, where does a poor man learn koine greek?  :P

I can't answer that one. I learned Greek in high school but I assume you're too old for that  :P

what high school was that!? well, I live in the US and the public school offered Spanish German and French.

i am 19, so no i don't think i can go back to high school, they might even think i am a pedophile!  :police: :police: :police:
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Online Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,024
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2012, 04:21:32 PM »
I do not really care to learn classical/attic greek, only koine (i have no desire to read the illiad or homer or whatever!!!)

I learned classical Greek and I can read Koine easily. It's not any more different as British English is from American English.


i just sort of want to stay away from classical because it might be pronounced differently


You're not supposed to really pronounce it. Are you going to hold conversations in Koine or something? It's about reading and translating I suppose. And no, AFAIK there's no seperate Koine class.

how can one read without pronouncing it in ones head!?

and okay

now where could one learn classical (non  Erasmian) greek without having to spend a thousand dollars? :P

I suppose you could learn Attic from books and then learn the Koine pronunciation separatly. I'm sure those books won't cost a thousand dollars.

what high school was that!? well, I live in the US and the public school offered Spanish German and French.

A Dutch Roman Catholic high school. But even many public schools offer it here.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 04:22:52 PM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Gunnarr

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,942
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2012, 04:32:54 PM »
I do not really care to learn classical/attic greek, only koine (i have no desire to read the illiad or homer or whatever!!!)

I learned classical Greek and I can read Koine easily. It's not any more different as British English is from American English.


i just sort of want to stay away from classical because it might be pronounced differently


You're not supposed to really pronounce it. Are you going to hold conversations in Koine or something? It's about reading and translating I suppose. And no, AFAIK there's no seperate Koine class.

how can one read without pronouncing it in ones head!?

and okay

now where could one learn classical (non  Erasmian) greek without having to spend a thousand dollars? :P

I suppose you could learn Attic from books and then learn the Koine pronunciation separatly. I'm sure those books won't cost a thousand dollars.

what high school was that!? well, I live in the US and the public school offered Spanish German and French.

A Dutch Roman Catholic high school. But even many public schools offer it here.

ah

well i did try rosetta stone to learn the modern greek but i could only afford the online subscription for a year

now im out of money and i must depend on the internet :(
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline izrima

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2012, 05:00:59 PM »
ah

well i did try rosetta stone to learn the modern greek but i could only afford the online subscription for a year

now im out of money and i must depend on the internet :(

If you're in the U.S., a lot of public library systems offer Rosetta Stone to cardholders. You might also look into Wikiversity--I have found their Spanish materials to be very helpful whenever I am gearing up for Mexico.

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,300
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2012, 07:29:40 PM »
Do we know exactly how Koine Greek was actually pronounced?

Yes. It sounded very much like middle and modern Greek.

It did? What about Erasmian pronunciation?

Erasmian pronunciation is for Attic Greek, not Koine. And even then I doubt whether the Erasmian pronunciation was ever used, it is 'reconstructed' in the Renaissance and it sounds plain awful.

Again there is NO SUCH THING as Erasmian pronunciation outside of weird back to the Greek Bible circles.

Go to a real classics department and run this game if you want to get laughed at.

Attic is always being reconstructed that is what philologists do.

I sat through debates (impromptu) by serious classists arguing over pronunciation of attic Greek all the time.

Erasmus developed a method. A needed one.

And you are kidding yourself if you think the Greek of today is what "Greek" sounded like even in 20 AD.

Sheesh. This should be common sense to those who have had the opportunity to experience today a language with a long history which circles much of the known world: English.

Oh how will people 2000 years from now know think I sounded if there are no recorded media left and just fragments of writing here and there?  

If they come up with how Akimori sounds, well they will be far off.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 07:30:42 PM by orthonorm »
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Online Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,024
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2012, 02:11:41 PM »

Again there is NO SUCH THING as Erasmian pronunciation outside of weird back to the Greek Bible circles.

Go to a real classics department and run this game if you want to get laughed at.

Attic is always being reconstructed that is what philologists do.

I sat through debates (impromptu) by serious classists arguing over pronunciation of attic Greek all the time.

Erasmus developed a method. A needed one.

And you are kidding yourself if you think the Greek of today is what "Greek" sounded like even in 20 AD.

Sheesh. This should be common sense to those who have had the opportunity to experience today a language with a long history which circles much of the known world: English.

Oh how will people 2000 years from now know think I sounded if there are no recorded media left and just fragments of writing here and there? 

If they come up with how Akimori sounds, well they will be far off.

You do realise that Erasmus based his pronunciations exclusively on lyrical poetry (the Greek lyrical poetry being exceptionally fragmentary)? Koine of 20 AD sounded much closer to modern Greek than Erasmian pronunciation does to Koine. The sound of the 'η' for example is pronounced as 'i' in Koine, Middle, Byzantine and Modern Greek but as è (as in everybody) in the Erasmian pronunciation.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 02:15:39 PM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος

Offline Gamliel

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,015
  • ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστον βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2012, 10:17:40 PM »
Is the LXX still koine It seems like there would be some differences?  :-\

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,300
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2012, 11:02:16 PM »

Again there is NO SUCH THING as Erasmian pronunciation outside of weird back to the Greek Bible circles.

Go to a real classics department and run this game if you want to get laughed at.

Attic is always being reconstructed that is what philologists do.

I sat through debates (impromptu) by serious classists arguing over pronunciation of attic Greek all the time.

Erasmus developed a method. A needed one.


And you are kidding yourself if you think the Greek of today is what "Greek" sounded like even in 20 AD.

Sheesh. This should be common sense to those who have had the opportunity to experience today a language with a long history which circles much of the known world: English.

Oh how will people 2000 years from now know think I sounded if there are no recorded media left and just fragments of writing here and there? 

If they come up with how Akimori sounds, well they will be far off.

You do realise that Erasmus based his pronunciations exclusively on lyrical poetry (the Greek lyrical poetry being exceptionally fragmentary)? Koine of 20 AD sounded much closer to modern Greek than Erasmian pronunciation does to Koine. The sound of the 'η' for example is pronounced as 'i' in Koine, Middle, Byzantine and Modern Greek but as è (as in everybody) in the Erasmian pronunciation.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline Apostolos

  • Protopentekaidekarchos
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 408
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Church of Greece
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2012, 09:08:28 AM »
Do we know exactly how Koine Greek was actually pronounced?

Yes. It sounded very much like middle and modern Greek.

It did? What about Erasmian pronunciation?

Erasmian pronunciation is for Attic Greek, not Koine. And even then I doubt whether the Erasmian pronunciation was ever used, it is 'reconstructed' in the Renaissance and it sounds plain awful.

Again there is NO SUCH THING as Erasmian pronunciation outside of weird back to the Greek Bible circles.

Go to a real classics department and run this game if you want to get laughed at.

Attic is always being reconstructed that is what philologists do.

I sat through debates (impromptu) by serious classists arguing over pronunciation of attic Greek all the time.

Erasmus developed a method. A needed one.

And you are kidding yourself if you think the Greek of today is what "Greek" sounded like even in 20 AD.

Sheesh. This should be common sense to those who have had the opportunity to experience today a language with a long history which circles much of the known world: English.

Oh how will people 2000 years from now know think I sounded if there are no recorded media left and just fragments of writing here and there?  

If they come up with how Akimori sounds, well they will be far off.
Since no-one living in 20 AD is still around, I'm afraid there's no evidence of the correct pronunciation of the Greek of the 1st c. AD.
On the other hand we have evidence of the convergence of pronunciation of Attic diphthongs and η with plain iota atleast since Plato. Plato in his dialogue Cratylus writes that the name of Poseidon derives from the fact that he is the Posidesmos (the foot-shackler) of seas: "Τὸν οὖν ἄρχοντα τῆς δυνάμεως ταύτης θεόν ᾠνόμασεν Ποσειδῶνα ὅς Ποσίδεσμον ὄντα". One problem then occurs for the followers of Eramian pronunciaton: according to them, "Ποσσειδῶν" is pronounced differently from "Ποσίδεσμος", thus either Plato does not know what he writes, or they must have missed something
Ἦχος Βαρύς

Ὁπλιτικῆς φάλαγγος οἰκεῖον μέλος
ὁ τοῦ βάρους σὺ κλῆσιν εἰληφῶς φέρεις.
Ἧχον τὸν ἁπλοῦν τὸν βάρους ἐπώνυμον
ὁ τοὺς λογισμοὺς ἐν βοαῖς μισῶν φιλεῖ.
Ἀνδρῶν δὲ ἄσμα δευτερότριτε βρέμεις.
Ὧν ποικίλος δὲ τοὺς ἁπλούς ἔχεις φίλους.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2012, 10:53:47 AM »
Koine, koine, koine and koine.
Koine. Koine. Middle Greek (but he wrote and sermonized in Attic(ized)), "Byzantine" Greek.

My Greek grammar book tell me that Middle Greek started from ~600 AD, which would include the Sixth and Seventh Ecumenical Councils. Some other works however say that middle greek was used from 330 onwards. I guess it would depend on which date you use.

May I ask which grammar book(s) you used?
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Online Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,024
  • Φέρ' ὕδωρ φέρ' οἶνον, ὦ παῖ!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: What types of Greek are there?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2012, 10:58:57 AM »
Koine, koine, koine and koine.
Koine. Koine. Middle Greek (but he wrote and sermonized in Attic(ized)), "Byzantine" Greek.

My Greek grammar book tell me that Middle Greek started from ~600 AD, which would include the Sixth and Seventh Ecumenical Councils. Some other works however say that middle greek was used from 330 onwards. I guess it would depend on which date you use.

May I ask which grammar book(s) you used?

A dutch one. Pallas 4 to be more specific.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

νίκας τοῖς Βασιλεῦσι κατὰ βαρβάρων δωρούμενος