Author Topic: A vaticanista reads the pope's book  (Read 806 times)

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Offline Jetavan

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A vaticanista reads the pope's book
« on: November 25, 2012, 11:15:22 PM »
American reaction to Pope Benedict XVI’s latest book, Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives, so far has been restricted to quick day-one news pieces, partly because it was released the day before Thanksgiving.
....
On the matter of the virgin birth, for instance, Benedict says it’s a “cornerstone” of the faith: “If God does not have power over matter,” he writes, “then he simply is not God.”
....
The pope also has no problem saying that Christian tradition got the date of Jesus’ birth wrong. Rather than what we now regard as the year zero, he says, Jesus was most likely born around 7 or 6 B.C. (As it turns out, there was an astronomic event that year which, as the pope notes, is believed by some to underlie the story of the “star in the East” that led the Magi to Jesus.)
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On another score, a pious Catholic tradition has long read Luke 1:34, when Mary asks the Angel Gabriel after he tells her she will conceive a child, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” to mean that she had taken a vow of virginity....Noting that such an idea would be “quite foreign to the world of Judaism at Jesus’ time,” Benedict XVI summarily dismisses it as “inconceivable.” (One wonders what all those Catholic apologists who insist on this tradition will make of the pope’s words.)
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The stress on joy, meanwhile, comes out of Benedict’s discussion of the annunciation to Mary. He notes that Gabriel does not employ the usual Jewish greeting with Mary – shalom, or “peace” – but the Greek term chaĩre, which tradition renders as “hail,” but which really means something like “rejoice!”
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Offline Peter J

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Re: A vaticanista reads the pope's book
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 03:04:11 PM »
On another score, a pious Catholic tradition has long read Luke 1:34, when Mary asks the Angel Gabriel after he tells her she will conceive a child, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” to mean that she had taken a vow of virginity....Noting that such an idea would be “quite foreign to the world of Judaism at Jesus’ time,” Benedict XVI summarily dismisses it as “inconceivable.” (One wonders what all those Catholic apologists who insist on this tradition will make of the pope’s words.)

That's a bit surprising. So if I'm reading this right, the pope said that she definitely didn't take a vow of virginity, not just 'The passage isn't proof that she did.'
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: A vaticanista reads the pope's book
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 03:58:06 PM »
On another score, a pious Catholic tradition has long read Luke 1:34, when Mary asks the Angel Gabriel after he tells her she will conceive a child, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” to mean that she had taken a vow of virginity....Noting that such an idea would be “quite foreign to the world of Judaism at Jesus’ time,” Benedict XVI summarily dismisses it as “inconceivable.” (One wonders what all those Catholic apologists who insist on this tradition will make of the pope’s words.)

That's a bit surprising. So if I'm reading this right, the pope said that she definitely didn't take a vow of virginity, not just 'The passage isn't proof that she did.'
Is there any historical tradition of young Jewish women taking a vow of celibacy?
If you will, you can become all flame.
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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: A vaticanista reads the pope's book
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 09:03:48 PM »
The media love to hype:

Quote
The day after Benedict's latest book The Infancy Narratives - Jesus of Nazareth - was published on November 20, Vatican officials found some headlines they were not expecting.

"Killjoy pope crushes Christmas nativity traditions," read one tabloid headline, claiming that Benedict had snubbed traditions such as animals in nativity scenes and caroling.
....
And then there was this zinger headline from a web news site: "Pope bans Christmas".
....
So what was all the fuss about?

In the 137-page book, the pope states a fact: that in the gospels there is "no reference" to the presence of animals in the stable - actually, it was probably a cave - where Jesus was born.
....
Benedict says the evangelist Luke wrote that at the moment of Jesus' birth the angels "said" the well-known phrase "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men with whom he is pleased".

But in the next line he explains that "Christianity has always understood that the speech of angels is actually song", that "the angels' song of praise has never gone silent", and that it is "only natural that simple believers (even today) join in their caroling on the Holy Night".

So, no need to cancel any school performances.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 09:04:29 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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Offline LBK

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Re: A vaticanista reads the pope's book
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 09:40:08 PM »
Quote
In the 137-page book, the pope states a fact: that in the gospels there is "no reference" to the presence of animals in the stable - actually, it was probably a cave - where Jesus was born.

Specific mention of the ox and donkey (as depicted in Orthodox iconography, as well as western Nativity scenes) might be absent from the Gospel accounts, but they're there in the incarnational prophecy of Isaiah:

The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master’s crib. (Is 1:3)
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Offline Peter J

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Re: A vaticanista reads the pope's book
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 11:34:35 PM »
Quote
In the 137-page book, the pope states a fact: that in the gospels there is "no reference" to the presence of animals in the stable - actually, it was probably a cave - where Jesus was born.

But the bible says "manger" which is another word for stable. Right??

Quote
So, no need to cancel any school performances.

Um, what if I already did?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 11:36:39 PM by Peter J »
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: A vaticanista reads the pope's book
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 07:36:53 PM »
Quote
In the 137-page book, the pope states a fact: that in the gospels there is "no reference" to the presence of animals in the stable - actually, it was probably a cave - where Jesus was born.

But the bible says "manger" which is another word for stable. Right??

Quote
So, no need to cancel any school performances.

Um, what if I already did?
I thought a manger was a trough, i.e., a feed box or container for food.
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Offline LBK

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Re: A vaticanista reads the pope's book
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2012, 07:38:42 PM »
Quote
In the 137-page book, the pope states a fact: that in the gospels there is "no reference" to the presence of animals in the stable - actually, it was probably a cave - where Jesus was born.

But the bible says "manger" which is another word for stable. Right??

Quote
So, no need to cancel any school performances.

Um, what if I already did?
I thought a manger was a trough, i.e., a feed box or container for food.

It is.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: A vaticanista reads the pope's book
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2012, 09:08:35 PM »
Quote
In the 137-page book, the pope states a fact: that in the gospels there is "no reference" to the presence of animals in the stable - actually, it was probably a cave - where Jesus was born.

But the bible says "manger" which is another word for stable. Right??

Quote
So, no need to cancel any school performances.

Um, what if I already did?
I thought a manger was a trough, i.e., a feed box or container for food.

It is.

Yes. (I'm one of those guys foolish enough to attempt humor on this forum.)
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Offline choy

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Re: A vaticanista reads the pope's book
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2012, 09:24:14 PM »
Did he declare this ex cathedra?  If so, we need to go to our Nativity of Christ icons and deface the animals depicted in the cave.