Author Topic: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?  (Read 1204 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MichaelArchangelos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
I know that there have been talks with regard to OO-EO union, and that the conclusion regarding Chalcedon and the two natures of Christ is that we are saying the same thing but in different words.

I don't see any problem with the leadership of the Ethiopian, Eritrean, Armenian and Indian churches if such a union occurred. However, since both Alexandria and Antioch have two claimants each (one OO, one EO) who would be the Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Antioch? This seems like it would be a big issue because if Pope Tawadros is accepted as the sole Patriarch of Antioch, that would mean that Dioscorus was right and Proterius was wrong. Same with Antioch and Severus. And Disocorus is venerated as a saint in the OO church.

In your opinion, who do you think would end up as Patriarch of each see if union occurred?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:52:45 AM by MichaelArchangelos »

Offline Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,285
  • We must go back!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2012, 08:05:18 AM »
In your opinion, who do you think would end up as Patriarch of each see if union occurred?

I guess both would stay until one of them died, after which the survivor would be the sole Patriarch and after the death of the survivor one Patriarch will be chosen.
"Par ma foi! Il y a plus de quarante ans que je dis de la prose sans que j'en susse rien."
-Molière, The Middle-Class Gentleman.

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,428
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Bulgaria
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2012, 09:23:42 AM »
IIRC someone here (ialmisry?) said that in case of union our Pope has promised to transform into a Metropolitan under the Coptic Pope.

IMO this should be the overall principle. Minority hierarchs should be transformed into rite-specific vicar bishops under the majority hierarchs.

Offline Dominika

  • Troublesome Sheep
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,254
  • Serbian/Polish
    • My youtube channel
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Sth different than my heart belongs to
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2012, 10:00:36 AM »
I've heard two opinions among EO regarding this issue.

One priest I know claims that there would be 2 popes of Alexandria. I opposed to this and said "One bishop for one see (city)" (yeah, I know nowadays, especially in USA and Western Europe it's so difficult to reach this situation) but he says it in today's world it wouldn't be problem. When I was watching the enthronement of the new Coptic pope, I saw it could work, but I think for the rest of Orthodox world and especially for non-Orthodox it would be "clearer" when there was one pope of Alexandria.

The second opinion is that Greeks should concede to the cradle Orthodox nations of these territories - Orientals. I think in Egypt it's quite obvious, but as for Antioch, I don't know - EO Antiochian Patriarchate is very active also in Syrian and Lebanon, not like EO Alexandrian Patriarchate, that in Egypt has few believers, but carries on mission in other African countries. For sure, the synods should consist of bishops of two rites, parishes also should have (generally) one rite. I think the best option for the division of 2 rites would be at the parish level, not diocesan - too many "layers". And the priests of one patriarchate should know both rites.
Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2012, 10:33:17 AM »
We have had this conversation before on OC.net. IIRC, this has been worked out in proposal form already with the current Coptic pope becoming the Pope of the Church of Alexandria and the current EO pope becoming in effect a 'vice pope' who would succeed the (Coptic) pope at his repose - consider him as pre-elected. This applies only to the current occupants of the thrones. Should the EO pope repose first, normal elections by the combined synod would take place at the (formerly Coptic only) pope's repose.

Hope this explanation is clear. This is not a case of our side wins: other side loses. Everyone wins.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,938
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2012, 11:51:50 AM »
If this was really a problem, knowing the present Pope Theodore II's and Patriarch Ignatius Hazim  and Ignatius Iwas, all four would resign and let the reunited synods pick a successor for Alexandria and Antioch.  As Aristokles said, this is a rare opportunity where everyone wins.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 11:55:33 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline mike

  • The Jerk
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,279
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Makurian Orthodox
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2012, 12:31:08 PM »
Theodore II would be the Pope of Alexandria and Ignatius would  be the Patriarch of Antioch  8) That's easy.

Offline Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,285
  • We must go back!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2012, 12:38:12 PM »
Theodore II would be the Pope of Alexandria and Ignatius would  be the Patriarch of Antioch  8) That's easy.

That's brilliant!
"Par ma foi! Il y a plus de quarante ans que je dis de la prose sans que j'en susse rien."
-Molière, The Middle-Class Gentleman.

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,371
  • New Martyrs of Libya pray for us!
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2012, 08:08:26 PM »
A tangent on the number of EO's in Africa, and whether we should set up OO patriarchs in Greece and Moscow, was split off and put in the private forum.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,48225.msg840865.html#top

Those who want to experience the private forum need to pm Fr. George and ask for access.

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2012, 08:54:34 PM »
Theodore II would be the Pope of Alexandria and Ignatius would  be the Patriarch of Antioch  8) That's easy.

 :angel:
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,375
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2012, 09:08:08 PM »
if Pope Tawadros is accepted as the sole Patriarch of Antioch, that would mean that Dioscorus was right and Proterius was wrong

Not really :P
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline MichaelArchangelos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2012, 07:08:37 AM »
if Pope Tawadros is accepted as the sole Patriarch of Antioch, that would mean that Dioscorus was right and Proterius was wrong

Not really :P


Why is that?

BTW, would both sides be able to keep their specific saints (i.e. ones not recognised by either EO or OO, but not both)?

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,371
  • New Martyrs of Libya pray for us!
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2012, 09:20:44 PM »
A polemical tangent was split off and put in the private forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30364.msg841120.html#msg841120

If you want admission there, pm Fr. George.

Offline Pharaoh714

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 153
  • Lord Have Mercy! Christ Save me.
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2012, 10:01:14 PM »
A polemical tangent was split off and put in the private forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30364.msg841120.html#msg841120

If you want admission there, pm Fr. George.


Does he grant access to anyone that asks??
I PM'ed Him two days ago and nothing yet!
"If I say, "My foot slips," Your mercy, O LORD, will hold me up. In the multitude of my anxieties within me, Your comforts delight my soul." Psalm 94:18-19

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,371
  • New Martyrs of Libya pray for us!
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2012, 10:19:25 PM »
I think Fr. George is busy.  He hasn't logged in for a few days.  I'll try to get a hold of him.   :)

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,556
  • 1951-2015 Memory Eternal Uncle Roy--40 Days of Mourning.
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2012, 12:53:01 AM »
This might be a Protestant heresy outrage, but why not just set up a Holy Synod composed of each of the Oriental and Eastern Patriarchates/Popes in the area? I mean, we allowed it for Russia when Peter the Great wanted to show off to his Protestant friends, so why not do it in this situation when it would really be needed?
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,938
Re: If OO and EO unite - who will be Patriach of Alexandria and Antioch?
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2012, 01:01:02 AM »
This might be a Protestant heresy outrage, but why not just set up a Holy Synod composed of each of the Oriental and Eastern Patriarchates/Popes in the area? I mean, we allowed it for Russia when Peter the Great wanted to show off to his Protestant friends, so why not do it in this situation when it would really be needed?
The Holy Governing Synod is an aberration we wouldn't want to repeat, and I'm sure the OO don't want to repeat our mistakes.  Especially Egypt, OO or EO, which has always been used to a strong papacy just this side of heresy.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 01:01:25 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth