Author Topic: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?  (Read 3348 times)

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2012, 07:51:25 AM »
I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.

C2H5OH

It certainly didn't do a good job of preserving my brain.
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Offline Azul

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Re: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2012, 08:50:27 AM »
I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.So this can easily be a scam.

Pasadi shows again he is singular among his countrymen.

who is pasadi?
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Azul

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Re: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2012, 08:51:27 AM »
I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.

C2H5OH

the kind of "water" you like , eh ? :)
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline walter1234

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Re: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2012, 09:18:35 AM »
I do not agree. Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.



1.What is the canonical rules for the recognizing miracles and recognizing Saints?

2. In Orthodoxy, who is responsible to determine/recognize whether the miracles is from God or not? Who is responsible to determine/recognize which one is the saints, which one is not?  Is this the work of the Bishops?

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2012, 09:41:20 AM »
I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.So this can easily be a scam.

Pasadi shows again he is singular among his countrymen.

who is pasadi?

Indeed.
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Offline IoanC

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Re: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2012, 10:36:30 AM »
I do not agree. Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.



1.What is the canonical rules for the recognizing miracles and recognizing Saints?

2. In Orthodoxy, who is responsible to determine/recognize whether the miracles is from God or not? Who is responsible to determine/recognize which one is the saints, which one is not?  Is this the work of the Bishops?

I cannot provide all the rules, but they are many and strict. You could search yourself, and it's something I'd love to encourage you to do: a great way to learn about Orthodoxy is to read Saints, Catechisms, literature, etc.

Miracles are officially recognized by clergy, but they can be observed by anybody. Like I said, Orthodoxy considers miracles only those that are clearly in accord with The Gospel and Tradition, with God's Holiness and Power, that bring people to repentance and The Truth of the Orthodox Faith. Even if it was someone raising from the dead, if it didn't meet those requirements, it would still not be considered a miracle.

Offline walter1234

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Re: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2012, 03:06:21 AM »
I do not agree. Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.



1.What is the canonical rules for the recognizing miracles and recognizing Saints?

2. In Orthodoxy, who is responsible to determine/recognize whether the miracles is from God or not? Who is responsible to determine/recognize which one is the saints, which one is not?  Is this the work of the Bishops?

I cannot provide all the rules, but they are many and strict. You could search yourself, and it's something I'd love to encourage you to do: a great way to learn about Orthodoxy is to read Saints, Catechisms, literature, etc.

Miracles are officially recognized by clergy, but they can be observed by anybody. Like I said, Orthodoxy considers miracles only those that are clearly in accord with The Gospel and Tradition, with God's Holiness and Power, that bring people to repentance and The Truth of the Orthodox Faith. Even if it was someone raising from the dead, if it didn't meet those requirements, it would still not be considered a miracle.

Quote
Matthew chapter 11
20.Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
 
21.Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
 
22.But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
 
23.And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
 
24.But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Jesus also perform many miracles and mighty works in Chorzin and Bethsaida. But His miracles could not bring people to repetence. Are these miracles that performed Jesus still called "miracles"?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 03:20:11 AM by walter1234 »

Offline IoanC

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Re: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2012, 06:03:56 AM »
Yes, of course they are. It is up to people to repent. God allows us our freedom, and sometimes people do reject God. Many Martyr Saints of The Church were tortured and killed several times by certain earthly rulers, but God miraculously put them back together, as if they had not been touched at all -- still, those rulers did not repent. It's not they did not believe, since those miracles were undeniable, but they did not want to repent.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 06:04:36 AM by IoanC »

Offline walter1234

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Re: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?
« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2012, 07:00:52 AM »

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.


What is Holy water?  Why is holy water so important?

Who created this experiment? What is the validity of  this experiment?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2012, 11:29:34 AM »
I do not agree.
Thank you for taking personal responsibility for your opinions for once. I certainly don't want to be associated with your dogmatic proclamations.

Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.
You talk only about Orthodox miracles here. I don't contest the faith that miracles do occur in the Orthodox Church, and I'm sure the Church has stringent rules guiding how we discern a true miracle from the false. But nothing you said in the above quote supports your assertion that miracles occur only within the Orthodox Church.

Peter, would it be fair to say that nothing you say makes sense to me and that your "authority" means nothing? Where is your own logic for disproving what I say.
You do realize that there's a difference between saying, "You're wrong," on the one hand, and saying "Your argument doesn't support your point," on the other?

You only seem offended by what I say,
I don't like people making unwarranted dogmatic statements.

but it does not follow what your arguments are. You only seem bothered when people talk seriously about Orthodoxy, about fear of God, about holiness; sorry, but this attitude is known to me and I believe it is a sin.
But you only think you know my heart. It's one thing to talk seriously about Orthodoxy, about the fear of God, and about holiness. It's another thing altogether to make such dogmatic statements as, "Secular music can communicate only carnal feelings and desires," or, "Miracles occur only within the Orthodox Church". One can talk seriously about Orthodoxy and the fear of God without elevating one's own opinions to the level of dogma.

Let's just say that us two confess Orthodoxy differently. I don't feel threatened by your comments with which I generally disagree thoroughly as I find they are diluting and relaxing the nature of Orthodoxy. I suggest you don't feel threatened by my comments also, as I am only speaking as you do and all others do. I don't know why you can handle what you and others say, and get stuck in my comments. You are really just targeting me.
No, I target undue dogmatism wherever I see it.
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