Topic: Why is RCC so attractive?

[walter1234]

Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

[Cyrillic]

And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

What do you mean with that? Don't you think the EO and the protestants persecuted opponents?

[walter1234]

Power struggle between Emperor and Pope, crusades holy war, Inquisitio Haeretucae Pravitatis ,Indulgence,etc?

I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents？

[Cyrillic]

I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me wenthen and why EO persecuted the oppenents？

I bet the Oriental Orthodox could tell you some stories about that.

[walter1234]

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past? 

[Cyrillic]

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past? 

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

[Dominika]

Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?

My very personal opinion

It's so big because it had not to fight with Muslims; moreover, it was spreading the faith also by sword (especially in the period of aggressive colonisation)

It's so attractive because it's easier than Orthodoxy and more traditional than Protestantism

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  

I know in Egypt yes.

[walter1234]

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

How does EO Christians view all these thing?Why would God allow His true church do all these horrtbile thing?

(For protestant, we do not need to care about how reformers persecute the opponents,we only need to follow the teaching of bible.There is no visible and infallible church .All men who follow the teaching of bible are part of the church)

[FormerReformer]

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  

Persecution tends to go around. RCs persecuted EOs, EOs massacred the Latins in Constantinople, RCs persecuted Protestants, Protestants persecuted RCs, EOs persecuted the Old Believers, EOs persecuted the OOs, OO Eutyches was very mean indeed to EO St Flavian. And every so often, the EO and Armenians in Jerusalem go at it with broom-sticks.

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past? 

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

How does EO Christians view all these thing?Why would God allow His true church do all these horrtbile thing?

(For protestant, we do not need to care about how reformers persecute the opponents,we only need to follow the teaching of bible.There is no visible church .All men who follow the teaching of bible are part of the church)

It is sadly human nature that believing oneself to be right often goes hand in hand with believing that forcing others to believe is right. Though it is worth it to note that just about all these instances it was less the actual churches (hierarchy-wise) involved and more the State. When the state is officially a certain religion it has reason to be suspicious of other religions- many times other religions will attempt a coup.

It is also important to note that there are many periods in EO history where the "church" has done horrible things (monothelitism, iconoclasm) while the Church has abstained. Wheat and tares.

[Cyrillic]

OO Eutyches was very mean indeed to EO St Flavian.

 

[walter1234]

EO also persecuted OO and old believers .It is sinful. It is indeeded corrupted and fall.

Why does EO still believe and teach "Infallible church"?

[choy]

I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents？

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.  And of course the ROC played along with the Soviets and they took control of the properties of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Ukraine during the Soviet era.

[Alpo]

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

[choy]

Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.  Most towns don't have Orthodox parishes, and if there is one it's likely one that is very ethnic and wouldn't attract people who does not belong to that ethnicity.

[Cyrillic]

I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents？

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic.

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.

Orthodoxy is little known to most.  RCC has the "marketing brand power" so to speak.  When we speak of Churches with Apostolic lineage and history, she is easily the most recognizable.  And there's a RCC parish everywhere, easy to inquire and become a part of.

This. When I discovered that protestantism was nonsense the first thing I did was studying RC-ism.

[choy]

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

True! We're all humans.  It is not the fault of the faith, but rather the people who misinterpret and misrepresent the faith.

[choy]

I heard reformers kill oppenent.How about EO?Can you tell me when and why EO persecuted the oppenents？

Ask any Ukrainian Catholic

St. Josaphat was martyred by an Orthodox Christian mob for being Ukrainian Catholic. 

Josaphat martyred a whole lot of Orthodox Christians as well.

I guess St. Stephen and St. Paul will guide them in heaven on how to get along there

[walter1234]

This. When I discovered that protestantism was nonsense the first thing I did was studying RC-ism.

Can you explain more about this in detail?

[walter1234]

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.

[Cyrillic]

This. When I discovered that protestantism was nonsense the first thing I did was studying RC-ism.

Can you explain more about this in detail?

Two things started my journey:

1) Sola Scriptura, one of the doctrinal pillars of protestantism, says that every doctrine should come from Scripture (alone), but Scripture never says this, thus Sola Scriptura contradicts itself.

2) When I started reading the Church Fathers I found out that the 1st and 2nd century Church taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist and had bishops. Read St. Ignatius' epistles for example.

So after that I started studying the only Church I really knew who taught this: the RCC. But then I found out about the Orthodox Church and then I started comparing the two. In the end I found out (through reading history and the Church Fathers) that the Orthodox Church is the Church found on Pentecost in 33AD by Jesus Christ.

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so ?

There has always been sin and evil amongst the disciples of Christ. Remember Judas?

[walter1234]

This. When I discovered that protestantism was nonsense the first thing I did was studying RC-ism.

Can you explain more about this in detail?

Two things started my journey:

1) Sola Scriptura, one of the doctrinal pillars of protestantism, says that every doctrine should come from Scripture (alone), but Scripture never says this, thus Sola Scriptura contradicts itself.

2) When I started reading the Church Fathers I found out that the 1st and 2nd century Church taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist and had bishops. Read St. Ignatius' epistles for example.

So after that I started studying the only Church I really knew who taught this: the RCC. But then I found out about the Orthodox Church and then I started comparing the two. In the end I found out (through reading history and the Church Fathers) that the Orthodox Church is the Church found on Pentecost in 33AD by Jesus Christ.

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so ?

There has always been sin and evil amongst the disciples of Christ. Remember Judas?

I know that it is totally nonsense that God abandoned His Church for more than 1300 Year.ANd then suddenly, He asked a German Monk to make a new Church and teach some new "truth' which cannot be found in 1st- 16 th century.

[Shanghaiski]

The Church is not some museum of saints, but rather a hospital for sinners. People don't stop being flawed, tempted, sinful just because they convert or are baptized. There's evil in the world, there's evil in our hearts. It's not the Church's fault. The Church is not some bizarre abstraction of holiness. If you want bizarre abstractions, there's a plethora of weird religions and philosophies to choose from. But, if you want to repent, and to try your hardest every day to fight the evil in you and the evil in the world, to be healed by God, to attempt to love God as best as you can despite your weakness and inability, then the Church is there for you.

[Agabus]

Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?

My very personal opinion

It's so big because it had not to fight with Muslims

Spanish Catholics might quibble with that.

But on the larger front, that's more or less right. Catholicism was able to flourish in the West with little real competition from other religions (the exception being Judaism), and when colonial expansion began, the colonizers took their religion with them, eventually taking it worldwide.

Because of a cultural heritage of Catholicism (and western imperialism), the RCC is much more available for potential converts. In the west, the EO and OO have spread largely through immigration, though we have had notable missionary activity.

It's so attractive because it's easier than Orthodoxy and more traditional than Protestantism

'Ease' is a matter measure and perspective. A number of Catholics I have met can express with some consternation at what they consider the laxity of Orthodoxy. As much as people here like to argue that the difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is that Catholicism is all about rules...

[walter1234]

It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

[Cyrillic]

It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I don't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

[walter1234]

It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  

[Shanghaiski]

It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I don't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

For the most part the OO didn't have power, except in principalities (particularly Armenian). I'm sure if we went into their sources in their languages, we'd find more than just the EO saints murdered by OO mobs. Little has been translated in English, after all.

[Cyrillic]

It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

[William]

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past? 

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

Or so it is claimed.

[Cyrillic]

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past? 

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

Or so it is claimed.

It can hardly be denied. Especially Justinian, Maurice and Heraclius were tough on the Orientals.

[William]

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past? 

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

Or so it is claimed.

It can hardly be denied.

Unless you're the type of person who likes evidence with your polemical historical claims. 

[walter1234]

It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

Not like catholic?The whole Catholic formed Crusades and slaughtered different cities in medieval?

[Cyrillic]

It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall. 

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

Not like catholic?The whole Catholic formed Crusades and slaughtered different cities in medieval?

Oh, I thought we were talking about the Orthodox Church. My bad.

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past? 

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

Or so it is claimed.

It can hardly be denied.

Unless you're the type of person who likes evidence with your polemical historical claims. 

One of many passages of many books I could have quoted:

"[...] Severus fled into Egypt; and his friend, the eloquent Xenaias, who had escaped from the Nestorians of Persia, was suffocated in his exile by the Melchites of Paphlagonia. Fifty-four bishops were swept from their thrones, eight hundred ecclesiastics were cast into prison, and notwithstanding the ambiguous favor of Theodora, the Oriental flocks, deprived of their shepherds, must insensibly have been either famished or poisoned. In this spiritual distress, the expiring faction was revived, and united, and perpetuated, by the labors of a monk; and the name of James Baradaeus  has been preserved in the appellation of Jacobites, a familiar sound, which may startle the ear of an English reader. From the holy confessors in their prison of Constantinople, he received the powers of bishop of Edessa and apostle of the East, and the ordination of fourscore thousand bishops, priests, and deacons, is derived from the same inexhaustible source. The speed of the zealous missionary was promoted by the fleetest dromedaries of a devout chief of the Arabs; the doctrine and discipline of the Jacobites were secretly established in the dominions of Justinian; and each Jacobite was compelled to violate the laws and to hate the Roman legislator. The successors of Severus, while they lurked in convents or villages, while they sheltered their proscribed heads in the caverns of hermits, or the tents of the Saracens, still asserted, as they now assert, their indefeasible right to the title, the rank, and the prerogatives of patriarch of Antioch: under the milder yoke of the infidels, they reside about a league from Merdin etc. (Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, chapter 47, "The Jacobites")

And for a more modern source.

[walter1234]

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

Or so it is claimed.

It can hardly be denied.

Unless you're the type of person who likes evidence with your polemical historical claims.  

The whole Catholic formed Crusades and Slaugher the cities in Medieval. We can found in History. This can easily denied!

[choy]

It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

We're all fallen as humans.

[walter1234]

It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

Thoes persecution were only carried by some small groups in the Church, and the Church as a whole did not support with what these small groups did?

[William]

Oh, I thought we were talking about the Orthodox Church. My bad.

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past? 

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

Or so it is claimed.

It can hardly be denied.

Unless you're the type of person who likes evidence with your polemical historical claims. 

One of many passages of many books I could have quoted:

"[...] Severus fled into Egypt; and his friend, the eloquent Xenaias, who had escaped from the Nestorians of Persia, was suffocated in his exile by the Melchites of Paphlagonia. Fifty-four bishops were swept from their thrones, eight hundred ecclesiastics were cast into prison, and notwithstanding the ambiguous favor of Theodora, the Oriental flocks, deprived of their shepherds, must insensibly have been either famished or poisoned. In this spiritual distress, the expiring faction was revived, and united, and perpetuated, by the labors of a monk; and the name of James Baradaeus  has been preserved in the appellation of Jacobites, a familiar sound, which may startle the ear of an English reader. From the holy confessors in their prison of Constantinople, he received the powers of bishop of Edessa and apostle of the East, and the ordination of fourscore thousand bishops, priests, and deacons, is derived from the same inexhaustible source. The speed of the zealous missionary was promoted by the fleetest dromedaries of a devout chief of the Arabs; the doctrine and discipline of the Jacobites were secretly established in the dominions of Justinian; and each Jacobite was compelled to violate the laws and to hate the Roman legislator. The successors of Severus, while they lurked in convents or villages, while they sheltered their proscribed heads in the caverns of hermits, or the tents of the Saracens, still asserted, as they now assert, their indefeasible right to the title, the rank, and the prerogatives of patriarch of Antioch: under the milder yoke of the infidels, they reside about a league from Merdin etc. (Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, chapter 47, "The Jacobites")

And for a more modern source.

Of course Gibbon cannot be challenged.  

Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?

[dzheremi]

For me, I went to the Catholic Church because: (1) There was one in the town I was living in at the time when I wanted to go back to church; (2) I had good memories of my time volunteering at an orphanage in Mexico that was run by the local Catholic priest in the village, who was a very holy, selfless man and impressed me greatly (also, Catholicism in Mexico, at least in smaller, poorer villages like the one I stayed in, is much closer to Orthodoxy in terms of its pastoral nature than it is in the USA, where people aren't as serious about their faith, usually); (3) My father's side of the family was all Mexican and Irish Catholics, so I felt like it fit well.

That's pretty much it. All personal reasons, I guess. I knew that Orthodoxy existed (I'd been to a Russian Orthodox Church before as part of a field trip in a Russian language class I took around age 19, and also to the historic Russian settlement of Ft. Ross, since I grew up in the closest town next to it, so it is well known and loved by everybody in area, whether they are Orthodox or not), but it wasn't until I found the Coptic Orthodox Church that I really felt drawn to it (odd, I know...what can I say, I am odd).

I think other people's reasons are right, too. Like in my home town if you're not going to be Protestant, the Catholic Church is the only game in town. And it didn't hurt that the first time I went there (c. age 22), the priest there stopped me on the way out the door. "Hi, I haven't seen you before. Is this your first time? What is your name?" And when I told him my full name he said "Ahh! I knew your grandfather, years ago. A wonderful man! It's so nice to see you!" (My grandfather passed away when I was eight, so it made a really good impression on me; God bless you, Fr. Devereaux, wherever you are, and however you actually spell your last name...  )

You can say whatever you'd like about the RCC, but I'm glad I was there when I was there. I'm also glad I'm not there anymore, but I definitely don't regret it or think of it as something I could have skipped and still ended up where I am now. I don't know...God knows what He's doing.

[Alpo]

I don't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone

The Imperial Church before Chalcedon didn't persecute anyone?

[Cyrillic]

Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?

Google St. Samuel the Confessor for the torture part. He's one among many.

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

The Imperial Church before Chalcedon didn't persecute anyone?

Yes, it did.

[walter1234]

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

The Imperial Church before Chalcedon didn't persecute anyone?

"The Imperial Church before Chalcedon "?? What is it?

[Cyrillic]

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

The Imperial Church before Chalcedon didn't persecute anyone?

"The Imperial Church before Chalcedon "?? What is it?

The Church before 451 AD.

[Alpo]

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

The Imperial Church before Chalcedon didn't persecute anyone?

Yes, it did.

If OOs identify with pre-Chalcedonian Church it follows that OOs have indeed persecuted people of other faiths.

Please note though that I'm trying to blame OOs for anything or to turn this into EO-OO debate.

[dzheremi]

It might be a bit too late for such a disclaimer, Alpo.

Hey, maybe that's why the RCC is so attractive to people? Less fighting over what happened 1500 years ago! Of course, that's because the RCC is virtually unrecognizable in comparison to the first millennium church, so its collective memory doesn't usually go back that far, unless it's to quote Augustine or cherry pick some Eastern/Oriental saints in support of its current positions, but I digress...

[William]

Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?

Google St. Samuel the Confessor for the torture part. He's one among many.

Cyrillic, that is hagiography.