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Author Topic: Why is RCC so attractive?  (Read 12026 times) Average Rating: 0
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #90 on: November 25, 2012, 04:48:24 PM »

Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant...

Because everyone sins.
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« Reply #91 on: November 25, 2012, 04:50:40 PM »

Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?

Again, you have to look at context. Freedom of religion is a very modern concept. Heresy and its spread did cause serious problems for the state.

After St. Constantine, his son, Constantius, who was an Arian, persecuted the Orthodox. That was how things worked. Are you going to judge everyone based on your own personal standards?
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« Reply #92 on: November 25, 2012, 04:53:04 PM »

Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?

Again, you have to look at context. Freedom of religion is a very modern concept. Heresy and its spread did cause serious problems for the state.

After St. Constantine, his son, Constantius, who was an Arian, persecuted the Orthodox. That was how things worked. Are you going to judge everyone based on your own personal standards?

I assume the Saints are all holiness, full of love ,mercy and forgiveness!! Cry
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« Reply #93 on: November 25, 2012, 04:54:12 PM »

Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?

Again, you have to look at context. Freedom of religion is a very modern concept. Heresy and its spread did cause serious problems for the state.

After St. Constantine, his son, Constantius, who was an Arian, persecuted the Orthodox. That was how things worked. Are you going to judge everyone based on your own personal standards?

I assume the Saints are all holiness, full of love and mercy!! Cry

They are. However on earth nobody of us is perfect, so neither was St. Constantine.
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« Reply #94 on: November 25, 2012, 05:03:58 PM »

Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?

Again, you have to look at context. Freedom of religion is a very modern concept. Heresy and its spread did cause serious problems for the state.

After St. Constantine, his son, Constantius, who was an Arian, persecuted the Orthodox. That was how things worked. Are you going to judge everyone based on your own personal standards?

I assume the Saints are all holiness, full of love and mercy!! Cry

Tbey are fallen human beings who Christ has saved, whom he has sanctified. They are saints because of their repentance and what they did for God and the Church.

Anyway, I think you are pressing the issue too much. You're still expecting historical figures to view things according to modern principles. They viewed things according to Christian principles and the principles of their own time.

Sometimes, out of love and mercy, one still ends up having to do something that isn't pleasant. For example, a doctor causes pain in an effort to heal. Should he have done nothing? A soldier kills in battle in an attempt to save innocent people from barbarians. Should he just open the gates and let them be slaughtered? An emperor closes heretical churches and exiles hereseiarchs to discourage the spread of heresy which undermines the Church. A ruler puts down a rebellion responsible for endangering public safety. In a fallen world, the right thing to do is not always warm and fuzzy, nor is morality always black and white. Oftentimes, one who has a responsibility to make decisions is not always able to see everything before he takes a decision. Things may go against his intention--which was to do good, not to inflict pain or act with malice.
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« Reply #95 on: November 25, 2012, 05:42:21 PM »

I used to be more attracted to Catholicism, it's structure, traditions, structured life... but now I find it cold and lacking. I could never quite accept the Pope because of my Protestant upbringing, and the services seem more like a western shortcut that is too structured and artificial compared to Orthodoxy which seems more natural, especially in the OO church.

In my eyes the Armenian liturgy looks quite similiar to the RC Tridentine one. Especially the thing with the evil hats.
Granted I'm more familiar with the modern Roman rite services and ministers, but I speak of reading that I have done and conversations I have had. There is a gentleness and flexibility that I perceive in Orthodoxy that I don't perceive as much in Catholicism. This may be because I am more familiar with their rules and such, but sometimes it seems more like it's micromanaging everyone's theology and practice with more baggage than necessary. (Catholics and I have often had similar worldviews, but having been discouraged and feeling detached from Christianity, I don't jump at being told everything about modern life by a modern council and strict followers). I think that part of my change in perspective was also from a dissatisfaction with an evangelical western perspective of salvation and the distinction between western theology coming through Latin, a legal language, and eastern coming through Greek, a philosophical language.
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« Reply #96 on: November 25, 2012, 07:14:04 PM »

Is there any recognized Saints persecuting the opponents?

St. Constantine persecuted arians, sort of, until they convinced him to stop doing it.

I read somewhere that St. Constantine's Arian bishop had extreme influence on him, and that near the end of his life he was most likely Arian himself.
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« Reply #97 on: November 25, 2012, 07:37:23 PM »

Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant!No love and mercy on his enemies!! Not follow Jesus' teaching and pray for our enemies!

Make no mistake.  St. Constantine was wrong in many of his actions.  But I will not cease to venerate him.  Why?  Because what makes me any better than him, especially for many of the achievements he made for ancient Christianity, of which I fall short of?  I say to myself, if I'm not a tenth of the man he is, then I have no hope for my own salvation.  We give accounts of saints in our liturgies for their positive accomplishments and their repentances of their shortcomings.

I'll take this even further.  I am obedient to the Church in her condemnation of heretics, but I hesitate to condemn the worst of heretics to hell from my own mouth, lest I be judged in a similar manner.  I simply ask God for His mercy, and for giving me the ability to stay within the faith and grow in spirituality, doing good unto others and being a light of the world for Him, that I may not blaspheme Him by my actions.  And continually to forgive that I may be forgiven.  Continually see the worst of sinners and non-believers around me as better than me in their chances of going to heaven.  It is by this spirit that I continue to venerate St. Constantine and humbly ask him for his prayers of my miserable and hopeless soul.
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« Reply #98 on: November 25, 2012, 07:40:23 PM »

Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant!No love and mercy on his enemies!! Not follow Jesus' teaching and pray for our enemies!

Make no mistake.  St. Constantine was wrong in many of his actions.  But I will not cease to venerate him.  Why?  Because what makes me any better than him, especially for many of the achievements he made for ancient Christianity, of which I fall short of?  I say to myself, if I'm not a tenth of the man he is, then I have no hope for my own salvation.  We give accounts of saints in our liturgies for their positive accomplishments and their repentances of their shortcomings.

I'll take this even further.  I am obedient to the Church in her condemnation of heretics, but I hesitate to condemn the worst of heretics to hell from my own mouth, lest I be judged in a similar manner.  I simply ask God for His mercy, and for giving me the ability to stay within the faith and grow in spirituality, doing good unto others and being a light of the world for Him, that I may not blaspheme Him by my actions.  And continually to forgive that I may be forgiven.  Continually see the worst of sinners and non-believers around me as better than me in their chances of going to heaven.  It is by this spirit that I continue to venerate St. Constantine and humbly ask him for his prayers of my miserable and hopeless soul.

Amen!
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« Reply #99 on: November 25, 2012, 07:46:16 PM »

Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant!No love and mercy on his enemies!! Not follow Jesus' teaching and pray for our enemies!

Make no mistake.  St. Constantine was wrong in many of his actions.  But I will not cease to venerate him.  Why?  Because what makes me any better than him, especially for many of the achievements he made for ancient Christianity, of which I fall short of?  I say to myself, if I'm not a tenth of the man he is, then I have no hope for my own salvation.  We give accounts of saints in our liturgies for their positive accomplishments and their repentances of their shortcomings.

I'll take this even further.  I am obedient to the Church in her condemnation of heretics, but I hesitate to condemn the worst of heretics to hell from my own mouth, lest I be judged in a similar manner.  I simply ask God for His mercy, and for giving me the ability to stay within the faith and grow in spirituality, doing good unto others and being a light of the world for Him, that I may not blaspheme Him by my actions.  And continually to forgive that I may be forgiven.  Continually see the worst of sinners and non-believers around me as better than me in their chances of going to heaven.  It is by this spirit that I continue to venerate St. Constantine and humbly ask him for his prayers of my miserable and hopeless soul.

This is one of those posts that makes me double check what forum it's in so that hopefully it will be eligible for post of the month distinction. Smiley
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« Reply #100 on: November 26, 2012, 05:27:28 PM »

For a lot of people who are born Catholic, the RCC is part of their cultural heritage. If you're from a big Catholic family, probably everyone in that family is Catholic, practicing or not. There is not much church-hopping or denominantional discussion. In my family, we've had many in-laws convert to the RCC but I can't think of any of us who have converted away from the RCC. I will be the first  Wink

For people who convert to the RCC, I think a big part of it is just awareness. What is not a Protestant? A Catholic. If I don't like Protestantism, does that mean I am a Catholic? I imagine that is how it goes for many folks in the West. You don't often stumble upon Orthodoxy by mistake. The post-Vatican II RCC is also much less ethnic in any sort of exclusive way. Chances are that if you are curious about the RCC, there will be a parish near by that is offering services in the local vernacular. That sure is convenient.

For me personally, I first began to study Orthodoxy a few years ago and quickly began to see more truth in it than the RCC. The problem for me was worship. My first two trips to Orthodox churches were to parishes where I didn't speak the language and didn't look like the parishioners. I didn't get it. I wondered why the congregation wasn't singing. So after each of those false starts, I would go back to the RCC mainly because I loved the liturgy. I told myself that I probably wouldn't be able to convert until I could find a Western Rite parish. Luckily I eventually found an English-language OCA parish and was able to fast forward a bit  Smiley

The RCC is beautiful. There is nothing quite like going into an older parish and seeing the stained glass windows and the beautiful statues. A lot of the music is fantastic--I still sing the Latin Sanctus in the shower. And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.
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« Reply #101 on: November 26, 2012, 05:41:51 PM »

And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.

We're on the same boat.
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« Reply #102 on: November 26, 2012, 06:05:54 PM »

And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.

We're on the same boat.

It is a good problem to have Smiley I leave the RCC with no ill will. In fact, I've already had one experience where I defended the RCC to an Orthodox figure of authority who was alleging that Catholics would put leftover precious blood from communion into the refrigerator. I suppose that could be true, but in none of the many, many RC parishes I've visited have I ever seen something like that. It is a church with deficiencies, but I don't think insufficient or nonexistent respect and reverence for the Eucharist is often one of them.
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« Reply #103 on: November 26, 2012, 06:30:10 PM »

I remember once, quite a while ago, having to defend the RCC against people from my church (though I wasn't baptized yet at that time) who apparently had been under the influence of Protestants and came away thinking that Roman Catholics "worship Mary". While I was at some points quite uncomfortable with the hyper-hyper-hyper dulia that I occasionally saw given to her in my home RCC parish (heavily Latino; Latinos have a special devotion to St. Mary that can seem a little bit overboard to an outsider...or me), it never crossed the line to something that I would be calling the bishop about. So I just reminded my friends that we have prayers and hymns like this, which people who don't know any better would probably also take as "Mary-worshiping". We call those people "wrong" (because they are), so we should be a little more careful about what we claim about other churches that we're not a part of, because it's pretty easy to get a skewed view of them on that account.

(They never brought up that idea again.)
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« Reply #104 on: November 26, 2012, 06:30:41 PM »

And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.

We're on the same boat.

It is a good problem to have Smiley I leave the RCC with no ill will. In fact, I've already had one experience where I defended the RCC to an Orthodox figure of authority who was alleging that Catholics would put leftover precious blood from communion into the refrigerator. I suppose that could be true, but in none of the many, many RC parishes I've visited have I ever seen something like that. It is a church with deficiencies, but I don't think insufficient or nonexistent respect and reverence for the Eucharist is often one of them.

True enough.  I mean, Eucharistic Adoration, that says it all.
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« Reply #105 on: November 26, 2012, 07:07:15 PM »

Walter,

You are a breath of fresh air. Don't let your zeal burn you.

Why is the RCC beautiful? I could give some anecdotes, but who cares?

Bottom line, people find much good embodied there. They are not handwringing over this or that doctrine. The have the love of family, friends, history, etc.

And God probably fits in there as well.

It probably why most people incorporate into any body.

I can say this, when my life was probably at its worst (I really can't imagine it ever being worse and this coming from someone who tries to avoid the use of the superlative) a lot of RCs I didn't know were willing to do a lot to help me (visit a stranger in the hospital, offer a stranger their home and food). Not once did I get a God lecture. Just ridiculous generosity.

It was baffling and embarrassing.

If not for the sex scandal, I couldn't honestly bring myself to utter a single negative word about the RCC (except their penchant for the Scholastic after so long, sorry Papist).

I cannot say negative thing about RCs in general for sure. I have just seen too much true good done by them in their own backyards.

One or twice since, I had thought about going off the rails. The unconscionable generosity of a single nun kept me from doing so. I couldn't imagine repaying her kindness in such a way. And I am about as ungrateful a lot as you will find.

Nothing to do with God. Just the excess care of woman I doubt I will ever meet again.

I can see what people find beauty in the RCC. In my short brushes with it, it was hard to avoid.

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« Reply #106 on: November 26, 2012, 08:18:58 PM »

It is threads like these, full of shallow criticisms of Catholic praxis, that make me glad I returned to the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #107 on: November 26, 2012, 08:35:12 PM »

If not for the sex scandal, I couldn't honestly bring myself to utter a single negative word about the RCC (except their penchant for the Scholastic after so long, sorry Papist).
No problem.  Cheesy Scholasticism is not the only philosophical language by which one can express the truths of the faith. I love the Aristotelian/Thomistic approach to philosophy, but when it comes to theology, I have a greater appreciation for the Byzantine expression. In fact, there areas of theology in which I prefer the Byzantine expression (i.e. the sacraments, theosis, purgatory/purification, pre-destination, etc.). Like I said, I've always had my feet in both worlds.
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« Reply #108 on: November 26, 2012, 09:02:18 PM »

It is threads like these, full of shallow criticisms of Catholic praxis, that make me glad I returned to the Roman Catholic Church.

There is shallow criticism all around.  It is something that every religious group has plenty of.
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« Reply #109 on: November 26, 2012, 10:11:22 PM »

It is threads like these, full of shallow criticisms of Catholic praxis, that make me glad I returned to the Roman Catholic Church.

There is shallow criticism all around.  It is something that every religious group has plenty of.

And people wonder why the non-religious think you are all the same.

This should be a drinking game around here. Whenever you find someone excuse a member of the Church or a period of the Church with the "we are all humans" line, drink.

Twice if they mention something about hospitals.

Good luck making it through a hot night around here.
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« Reply #110 on: November 26, 2012, 11:27:34 PM »

It is threads like these, full of shallow criticisms of Catholic praxis, that make me glad I returned to the Roman Catholic Church.

There is shallow criticism all around.  It is something that every religious group has plenty of.

And people wonder why the non-religious think you are all the same.

This should be a drinking game around here. Whenever you find someone excuse a member of the Church or a period of the Church with the "we are all humans" line, drink.

Twice if they mention something about hospitals.

Good luck making it through a hot night around here.

I might die of alcohol poisoning on the first thread I read  Grin
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« Reply #111 on: November 27, 2012, 01:05:37 AM »

It is threads like these, full of shallow criticisms of Catholic praxis, that make me glad I returned to the Roman Catholic Church.

There is shallow criticism all around.  It is something that every religious group has plenty of.

And people wonder why the non-religious think you are all the same.

This should be a drinking game around here. Whenever you find someone excuse a member of the Church or a period of the Church with the "we are all humans" line, drink.

Twice if they mention something about hospitals.

Good luck making it through a hot night around here.

Well, since alcohol is a vasodilator... oh nevermind.
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« Reply #112 on: November 27, 2012, 02:43:32 AM »

Reasons I find the RCC attractive:
- There's more of them in the country I live in, making it easier to actively participate in church life.
- They are less ascetic.
- They are more cerebral.
- They are more organized.
- They are more open-minded.
- They have the Pope.

Reasons I find the RCC unattractive:
- They are less mystical.
- They are less cool.
- They are more authoritarian.
- Their worship is bland.
- Their positions on contraception and divorce.
- They have the Pope.
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« Reply #113 on: November 27, 2012, 02:54:22 AM »

Reasons the RCC is attractive;
-Where I live its the biggest church with the most parishes in the area
-Parishes are ran much differently than most Orthodox parishes
-Priest is clearly in charge and parish council fights but only over music and flowers unlike Orthodox parish councils that can be congregationalist beasts that consider the clergy hired help and have a controlling president that is a monster

Reasons the RCC is not attractive;
No lex credendi lex orendi
Things have changed; altar girls, lay people doing just about everything except the communion rite

One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have. 
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« Reply #114 on: November 27, 2012, 02:57:35 AM »

And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.

We're on the same boat.

It is a good problem to have Smiley I leave the RCC with no ill will. In fact, I've already had one experience where I defended the RCC to an Orthodox figure of authority who was alleging that Catholics would put leftover precious blood from communion into the refrigerator. I suppose that could be true, but in none of the many, many RC parishes I've visited have I ever seen something like that. It is a church with deficiencies, but I don't think insufficient or nonexistent respect and reverence for the Eucharist is often one of them.

Sometimes I don't think protestant converts realize the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic church are so close to being the same when they join.  Orthodox love Mary..... Roman Catholics love Mary.... We have saints, they have saints.  We all pray for the dead.   So it behooves me that Protestant converts bring that hatred of Roman Catholicism into their conversion into Orthodoxy... it's ridiculous.  I mean pretty much the RCC and the Orthodox share half of their history together... and the first 7 ecumenical councils together...  I don't even argue with people anymore it does no good.  The church hall isn't even the place to argue with people I think.  Maybe I'm getting old.
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« Reply #115 on: November 27, 2012, 09:08:46 AM »

To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
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« Reply #116 on: November 27, 2012, 09:16:55 AM »

And a lot of the people, laymen and priests, are really good, decent folks. It is tough to leave that sort of experience behind for the unknown and the unfamiliar.

We're on the same boat.

It is a good problem to have Smiley I leave the RCC with no ill will. In fact, I've already had one experience where I defended the RCC to an Orthodox figure of authority who was alleging that Catholics would put leftover precious blood from communion into the refrigerator. I suppose that could be true, but in none of the many, many RC parishes I've visited have I ever seen something like that. It is a church with deficiencies, but I don't think insufficient or nonexistent respect and reverence for the Eucharist is often one of them.

Sometimes I don't think protestant converts realize the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic church are so close to being the same when they join.  Orthodox love Mary..... Roman Catholics love Mary.... We have saints, they have saints.  We all pray for the dead.   So it behooves me that Protestant converts bring that hatred of Roman Catholicism into their conversion into Orthodoxy... it's ridiculous.  I mean pretty much the RCC and the Orthodox share half of their history together... and the first 7 ecumenical councils together...  I don't even argue with people anymore it does no good.  The church hall isn't even the place to argue with people I think.  Maybe I'm getting old.

Most of the converts I know don't hate the Roman Catholic Church.  They actually study it first before coming to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #117 on: November 27, 2012, 10:00:19 AM »

That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
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« Reply #118 on: November 27, 2012, 10:04:06 AM »

The prime reason that the RCC is so attractive is because of Notre Dame football -- #1 in the nation, baby!
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« Reply #119 on: November 27, 2012, 10:22:00 AM »

That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Are there any  rules, rituals and behaviours in Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #120 on: November 27, 2012, 10:23:44 AM »

Yes, there are. But the community itself, or better saying, the ties of love in it, is more important than those. for some people, the rules are the most important things, for others they are not important at all (I think both are wrong), but it is about love and being part of the same community of Jesus and the Apostles. Unfortunately, non-Chalcedonians, Romans and Protestants, despite keeping some right practices and beliefs, no longer are part of that community.

That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Are there any  rules, rituals and behaviours in Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #121 on: November 27, 2012, 10:39:14 AM »

One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.
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« Reply #122 on: November 27, 2012, 10:43:08 AM »

One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.

I think he's referring to the "WHY DONT YOU COME AND JOIN US AT COFFEE HOUR?!" mentality that's often present.  It can be incredibly stressful for introvert types and very off putting.  Forcing people to socialize is not fostering community.
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« Reply #123 on: November 27, 2012, 10:48:38 AM »

One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.

I think he's referring to the "WHY DONT YOU COME AND JOIN US AT COFFEE HOUR?!" mentality that's often present.  It can be incredibly stressful for introvert types and very off putting.  Forcing people to socialize is not fostering community.

People who don't want to can leave after the liturgy. When did we forget how to say no in this passive-aggressive society?
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« Reply #124 on: November 27, 2012, 10:57:00 AM »

One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.

I think he's referring to the "WHY DONT YOU COME AND JOIN US AT COFFEE HOUR?!" mentality that's often present.  It can be incredibly stressful for introvert types and very off putting.  Forcing people to socialize is not fostering community.

People who don't want to can leave after the liturgy. When did we forget how to say no in this passive-aggressive society?

You've apparently never experienced the "helpful" parishoner who "gently" guides visitors by the arm into the hall after being repeatedly told, "No, I'm sorry I can't stay."

Or have been confronted by three or four of the "welcoming committee" en masse who understand that you have to leave but really just want to show you their beautiful hall and, "Oh, here's a cup of coffee and this is so and so...don't you know her father literally helped build this church...and this is her daughter she's going to marry a priest someday say are you interested in going to seminary..."

The problem isn't that people don't know how to ,"No."  It's that people don't know how to take, "No, thank you," for an answer.

If you're not an introvert (or have some other social anxiety), you have absolutely no idea what this heavy-handed approach at fostering community can do to you and how it can literally make you run away.

Contrast that to every RCC parish I've ever been a part of where coffee hour exists, it's known, and if you want to come, great.  If not, see you next Sunday and have a lovely week.
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« Reply #125 on: November 27, 2012, 11:27:23 AM »

I can understand not being a big fan of coffee hour, since I'm an awkward Indian neckbeard myself, but to call it Protestant? Really? It's kinda devolving to calling things we don't like "Protestant" or "Western".
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« Reply #126 on: November 27, 2012, 11:52:26 AM »

One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.

I think he's referring to the "WHY DONT YOU COME AND JOIN US AT COFFEE HOUR?!" mentality that's often present.  It can be incredibly stressful for introvert types and very off putting.  Forcing people to socialize is not fostering community.

People who don't want to can leave after the liturgy. When did we forget how to say no in this passive-aggressive society?

You've apparently never experienced the "helpful" parishoner who "gently" guides visitors by the arm into the hall after being repeatedly told, "No, I'm sorry I can't stay."

Or have been confronted by three or four of the "welcoming committee" en masse who understand that you have to leave but really just want to show you their beautiful hall and, "Oh, here's a cup of coffee and this is so and so...don't you know her father literally helped build this church...and this is her daughter she's going to marry a priest someday say are you interested in going to seminary..."

The problem isn't that people don't know how to ,"No."  It's that people don't know how to take, "No, thank you," for an answer.

If you're not an introvert (or have some other social anxiety), you have absolutely no idea what this heavy-handed approach at fostering community can do to you and how it can literally make you run away.

Contrast that to every RCC parish I've ever been a part of where coffee hour exists, it's known, and if you want to come, great.  If not, see you next Sunday and have a lovely week.

I suppose, you might be right. Perhaps I will never experience or understand the anxiety that comes with being a pushover. I have plenty of social anxieties, but that isn't one of them.
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« Reply #127 on: November 27, 2012, 12:01:30 PM »

One other thing that is nice about the RCC is you can go to mass and leave at the end and on the way to your car if people say hi it generally is just "hi."  I'm not a fan of the protestant fellowship coffee hour that many Orthodox parishes have.

God forbid that in a place where we are a minority, that we ought to try to socialize with our fellow Orthodox Christians, or have any sense of community, especially since those Protestants  were the first to start doing it.

I think he's referring to the "WHY DONT YOU COME AND JOIN US AT COFFEE HOUR?!" mentality that's often present.  It can be incredibly stressful for introvert types and very off putting.  Forcing people to socialize is not fostering community.

People who don't want to can leave after the liturgy. When did we forget how to say no in this passive-aggressive society?

You've apparently never experienced the "helpful" parishoner who "gently" guides visitors by the arm into the hall after being repeatedly told, "No, I'm sorry I can't stay."

Or have been confronted by three or four of the "welcoming committee" en masse who understand that you have to leave but really just want to show you their beautiful hall and, "Oh, here's a cup of coffee and this is so and so...don't you know her father literally helped build this church...and this is her daughter she's going to marry a priest someday say are you interested in going to seminary..."

The problem isn't that people don't know how to ,"No."  It's that people don't know how to take, "No, thank you," for an answer.

If you're not an introvert (or have some other social anxiety), you have absolutely no idea what this heavy-handed approach at fostering community can do to you and how it can literally make you run away.

Contrast that to every RCC parish I've ever been a part of where coffee hour exists, it's known, and if you want to come, great.  If not, see you next Sunday and have a lovely week.

I suppose, you might be right. Perhaps I will never experience or understand the anxiety that comes with being a pushover. I have plenty of social anxieties, but that isn't one of them.

Nice.  Jesus loves you, too.



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« Reply #128 on: November 27, 2012, 12:08:54 PM »

Reasons I find the RCC attractive:
- There's more of them in the country I live in, making it easier to actively participate in church life.
- They are less ascetic.
- They are more cerebral.
- They are more organized.
- They are more open-minded.
- They have the Pope.


Isn't that a bad thing?
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« Reply #129 on: November 27, 2012, 12:09:45 PM »

The post-liturgy agape meal is one of those things that has helped me with my own introverted nature, but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge having to set a time limit on it sometimes. I don't know if that's being a pushover (it seems more assertive than that), but sometimes I've just had enough people for the day...particularly when they're yelling at each other loudly in Arabic, or they want me to stay and watch one of those two-disc movies on one of the lives of the saints.
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« Reply #130 on: November 27, 2012, 12:12:48 PM »

Nice.  Jesus loves you, too.

There is no need to draw such a hasty conclusion. But then perhaps I only doubt it because of my faithlessness.
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« Reply #131 on: November 27, 2012, 12:13:51 PM »

The post-liturgy agape meal is one of those things that has helped me with my own introverted nature, but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge having to set a time limit on it sometimes. I don't know if that's being a pushover (it seems more assertive than that), but sometimes I've just had enough people for the day...particularly when they're yelling at each other loudly in Arabic, or they want me to stay and watch one of those two-disc movies on one of the lives of the saints.

I'd like to point out I'm not against the meal/coffee hour itself, per se, but how it is presented and executed in almost every Orthodox parish I've been to vis-a-vis every RCC parish I've been involved in and visited over my 37 years on this planet.  I, too, have enjoyed the coffee hour at my parish and made some great friends there.  However, I was also not badgered about not staying like I was at the previous Orthodox parish I attended before finding my niche, so to speak, at my present one.  It was left as an open-ended offer which is how it should be, not as the interrogation it often, in my experience, is.
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« Reply #132 on: November 27, 2012, 12:15:29 PM »

I suppose, you might be right. Perhaps I will never experience or understand the anxiety that comes with being a pushover. I have plenty of social anxieties, but that isn't one of them.

Speaking of being passive aggressive...
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« Reply #133 on: November 27, 2012, 12:21:06 PM »

Yes, there are. But the community itself, or better saying, the ties of love in it, is more important than those. for some people, the rules are the most important things, for others they are not important at all (I think both are wrong), but it is about love and being part of the same community of Jesus and the Apostles. Unfortunately, non-Chalcedonians, Romans and Protestants, despite keeping some right practices and beliefs, no longer are part of that community.

That's the case because being the true church is not about following a set of rules, rituals and/or behaviour. It's about being a member of the same community of the Apostles and Jesus.


To certain extent,EO and RCC are quite similar.Why would Orthodox Church think that RCC is not the "True Church" of God? What are the MAIN difference between RCC and EO?
Are there any  rules, rituals and behaviours in Orthodox Church?

THe biggest difference between EO and RCC is that EO focus on "Love" while RCC focus too much on rules, rituals and behaviours  but forget about "Love".
Can I say in this way?
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« Reply #134 on: November 27, 2012, 12:22:51 PM »

I suppose, you might be right. Perhaps I will never experience or understand the anxiety that comes with being a pushover. I have plenty of social anxieties, but that isn't one of them.

Speaking of being passive aggressive...

I never claimed that I am not a passive aggressive psychopath, only that I've learned how to say no to people who are too assertive. It's a useful skill, one that I recommend everybody learn.
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