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Author Topic: Why is RCC so attractive?  (Read 11483 times) Average Rating: 0
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Kerdy
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« Reply #540 on: January 12, 2014, 02:38:02 AM »

Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #541 on: January 12, 2014, 02:39:43 AM »

What makes it so attractive?  I don't know, but it sure helps when you guys talk more about the Catholic Church than you do Orthodoxy, attack it at every opportunity and can't or won't defend your own faith without distortions of truth (i.e., twisting what the Catholics says) and arguing amongst yourselves about what this or that Orthodox Church believes.  Or just outright attacks on Orthodox churches because of their cultural backgrounds revealing prejudice within your own ranks and showing Orthodoxy may not be as solid and bound together as you say it is. 

But hey, what do I know?  I just read your own contradictions and distortions when you post them. 

It's very easy to make generalist observances such as this.

Especially with so much to observe. 
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montalban
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« Reply #542 on: January 12, 2014, 02:42:41 AM »

Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

The Catholic church has said he presided over it, which is saying he is above the Ecumenical Councils.

He can call the council.

He can dismiss it.

He can reject its findings, or accept them.

If you want to say that this is not above them, that's up to you.

You want to call it something other than what it is.


I should note that the 'presiding' of the first Ecumenical Councils carried with it no such powers. That is, the Catholic 'president' - the pope is very much over their councils whereas the original presidents were not.



In my years of discussing these matters I have noted a great many Catholic apologists wish to have their cake and eat it - arguing both for papal supremacy and also that the pope is just another bishop.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 02:49:01 AM by montalban » Logged

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« Reply #543 on: January 12, 2014, 02:44:18 AM »

What makes it so attractive?  I don't know, but it sure helps when you guys talk more about the Catholic Church than you do Orthodoxy, attack it at every opportunity and can't or won't defend your own faith without distortions of truth (i.e., twisting what the Catholics says) and arguing amongst yourselves about what this or that Orthodox Church believes.  Or just outright attacks on Orthodox churches because of their cultural backgrounds revealing prejudice within your own ranks and showing Orthodoxy may not be as solid and bound together as you say it is.  

But hey, what do I know?  I just read your own contradictions and distortions when you post them.  

It's very easy to make generalist observances such as this.

Especially with so much to observe.  

I offered for you to come up with something specific (which you didn't include in your quote of me above). You have not done so. All you've done is countered with more generalist criticism
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 02:46:49 AM by montalban » Logged

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« Reply #544 on: January 12, 2014, 02:46:58 AM »

Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

Said by Pope Pius IX, at that council, in response to Cardinal Guidi's speech, where he argued for an "infallibility of the Magisterium", not an "infallibility of the Pope":

“Io, io sono la tradizione, io, io sono la Chiesa!” (I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!)
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Kerdy
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« Reply #545 on: January 12, 2014, 03:25:33 AM »

Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

The Catholic church has said he presided over it, which is saying he is above the Ecumenical Councils.

He can call the council.

He can dismiss it.

He can reject its findings, or accept them.

If you want to say that this is not above them, that's up to you.

You want to call it something other than what it is.


I should note that the 'presiding' of the first Ecumenical Councils carried with it no such powers. That is, the Catholic 'president' - the pope is very much over their councils whereas the original presidents were not.



In my years of discussing these matters I have noted a great many Catholic apologists wish to have their cake and eat it - arguing both for papal supremacy and also that the pope is just another bishop.

Please pay close attention to what is actually being said, thanks!  Also, this addresses another question you asked in a separate post as evidence. 
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Kerdy
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« Reply #546 on: January 12, 2014, 03:28:58 AM »

Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

Said by Pope Pius IX, at that council, in response to Cardinal Guidi's speech, where he argued for an "infallibility of the Magisterium", not an "infallibility of the Pope":

“Io, io sono la tradizione, io, io sono la Chiesa!” (I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!)

So he said he was superior to the council?  No.  Also, context is rather important I should think, considering the confusion people have about infallibility and when/how it applies according to the Catholic Churches own teachings.
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LBK
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« Reply #547 on: January 12, 2014, 03:45:42 AM »

Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

Said by Pope Pius IX, at that council, in response to Cardinal Guidi's speech, where he argued for an "infallibility of the Magisterium", not an "infallibility of the Pope":

“Io, io sono la tradizione, io, io sono la Chiesa!” (I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!)

So he said he was superior to the council?  No.  Also, context is rather important I should think, considering the confusion people have about infallibility and when/how it applies according to the Catholic Churches own teachings.

Yes, the Pope did say he was superior to the council. Are his words so unclear to you? Please read my post again as to the circumstances which led to the Pope saying what he did.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 03:46:02 AM by LBK » Logged
Kerdy
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« Reply #548 on: January 12, 2014, 03:48:39 AM »

What makes it so attractive?  I don't know, but it sure helps when you guys talk more about the Catholic Church than you do Orthodoxy, attack it at every opportunity and can't or won't defend your own faith without distortions of truth (i.e., twisting what the Catholics says) and arguing amongst yourselves about what this or that Orthodox Church believes.  Or just outright attacks on Orthodox churches because of their cultural backgrounds revealing prejudice within your own ranks and showing Orthodoxy may not be as solid and bound together as you say it is.  

But hey, what do I know?  I just read your own contradictions and distortions when you post them.  

It's very easy to make generalist observances such as this.

Especially with so much to observe.  

I offered for you to come up with something specific (which you didn't include in your quote of me above). You have not done so. All you've done is countered with more generalist criticism

If I asked you to show me how much water was in the ocean, how would you respond?  By telling me to stand on the beach and take it all in?  If I didn't and said since you didn't reply the way I wanted I said the ocean was not filled with massive amounts of water, you would think I was either pretty dumb of being obstinate.  In the same way when you ask me to show you evidence of my criticism, which I clearly do not have to defend in the first place as it is my own personal observation, I say the same thing.  Stand on the beach and take it all in.  There is plenty of water to look at and consider.  All you have to do is start with the Catholic themes threads and read the vitriol spewed on the screen.  But don't take my word for it, go see for yourself.  That sort of foolishness is one of the reasons I have been so scarce of late.  I prefer not to debate with people who are purposely obtuse.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #549 on: January 12, 2014, 03:49:31 AM »

Funny how Vatican I claims that the Pope is superior to the Ecumenical councils.
That would be funny, if it actually said this.
I think it has elements of this even if not explicitly stated



"This council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of 29 June 1868. The first session was held in St. Peter's basilica on 8 December 1869 in the presence and under the presidency of the Pope."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The pope is the president and summoned the council
So, the Catholic Church never said the Pope was above the Ecumenical Councils, as accused, but he presided over them.

Said by Pope Pius IX, at that council, in response to Cardinal Guidi's speech, where he argued for an "infallibility of the Magisterium", not an "infallibility of the Pope":

“Io, io sono la tradizione, io, io sono la Chiesa!” (I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!)

So he said he was superior to the council?  No.  Also, context is rather important I should think, considering the confusion people have about infallibility and when/how it applies according to the Catholic Churches own teachings.

Yes, the Pope did say he was superior to the council. Are his words so unclear to you? Please read my post again as to the circumstances which led to the Pope saying what he did.

Sorry, I didn't see where he said that.  Maybe you can point it out specifically where he said, "I am superior to Ecumenical Councils."

Also, if you could, please describe the separation of the Pope and the Magisterium regarding infallibility because the Catholic Church teaches they work in unison, as in together, collectively, not separate.


The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

[CCC 889] In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the
Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility.  By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God,
under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."

[CCC 890] The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God
with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections
and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty
of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates.  To fulfill this
service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals.
The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

[CCC 891] "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when,
as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a
definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in
the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the Supreme Magisterium," above all in
an Ecumenical Council.  When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as
being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of
faith. This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of Divine Revelation itself.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 03:53:47 AM by Kerdy » Logged
LBK
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« Reply #550 on: January 12, 2014, 03:57:35 AM »

What part of "I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!" do you have trouble understanding, Kerdy? The notion of papal infallibility only became proclaimed a dogma in 1870, at the First Vatican council, by the very pope who uttered the above words.

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« Reply #551 on: January 12, 2014, 03:59:29 AM »

What part of "I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!" do you have trouble understanding, Kerdy? The notion of papal infallibility only became proclaimed a dogma in 1870, at the First Vatican council, by the very pope who uttered the above words.



You know, I never said you had to agree, but its a little dishonest to misrepresent it, don't you think?

This also addresses the question of why continued councils in the Catholic Church.  Perhaps, to address accusations against it such as the ones being placed here.  To clarify and dogmatize that which was always taught.  Like in the first councils.  Just because it was finally dogmatized doesn't mean it was not taught previously unless you want to apply this idea to the first councils.  Also, I did a little looking and your quote is only found, that I can see, in books written by others outside the Catholic Church.  Would you accept such literary sources against an Orthodox Bishop? 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 04:05:02 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #552 on: January 12, 2014, 04:02:55 AM »

What part of "I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!" do you have trouble understanding, Kerdy? The notion of papal infallibility only became proclaimed a dogma in 1870, at the First Vatican council, by the very pope who uttered the above words.



You know, I never said you had to agree, but its a little dishonest to misrepresent it, don't you think?

Show me where I have misrepresented what Pius IX has said.  police
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« Reply #553 on: January 12, 2014, 04:04:27 AM »

I'm pretty sure the Roman Pope is considered as superior to ecumenical councils according to the RCC's own documents. From Pastor Aeternus, the dogmatic constitution of the first Vatican council, 1870:

"Therefore, they stray from the right course who assert that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman Pontiffs to an Ecumenical Council, as if to an authority higher than that of the Roman Pontiff."


I don't really understand how this is different than just out and out saying "the Pope is superior to ecumenical councils", but maybe someone else can explain how they're different, if they are.
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« Reply #554 on: January 12, 2014, 04:05:35 AM »

What part of "I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!" do you have trouble understanding, Kerdy? The notion of papal infallibility only became proclaimed a dogma in 1870, at the First Vatican council, by the very pope who uttered the above words.



You know, I never said you had to agree, but its a little dishonest to misrepresent it, don't you think?

Show me where I have misrepresented what Pius IX has said.  police

Show me where the Catholic Church teaches what you guys are pretending it does.   police

While you are at it, provide your source.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 04:08:31 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #555 on: January 12, 2014, 04:07:37 AM »

I'm pretty sure the Roman Pope is considered as superior to ecumenical councils according to the RCC's own documents. From Pastor Aeternus, the dogmatic constitution of the first Vatican council, 1870:

"Therefore, they stray from the right course who assert that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman Pontiffs to an Ecumenical Council, as if to an authority higher than that of the Roman Pontiff."


I don't really understand how this is different than just out and out saying "the Pope is superior to ecumenical councils", but maybe someone else can explain how they're different, if they are.

Except, it didn't say that.  What you say it says is a personal interpretation, not Catholic teachings, and likely taken out of context to fit an argument.  In fact, the quote above may be interpreted to be the opposite of what you say it means.  I am not reading through all of that to find your one line reference.  
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 04:15:44 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #556 on: January 12, 2014, 04:12:35 AM »

Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. Huh

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?
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« Reply #557 on: January 12, 2014, 04:14:43 AM »

Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. Huh

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?
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« Reply #558 on: January 12, 2014, 04:15:22 AM »

What part of "I, I am the tradition. I, I am the Church!" do you have trouble understanding, Kerdy? The notion of papal infallibility only became proclaimed a dogma in 1870, at the First Vatican council, by the very pope who uttered the above words.



You know, I never said you had to agree, but its a little dishonest to misrepresent it, don't you think?

Show me where I have misrepresented what Pius IX has said.  police

Show me where the Catholic Church teaches what you guys are pretending it does.   police

While you are at it, provide your source.  Thanks!

Are you denying Pius IX did not say those words in response to Cardinal Guidi's speech which advocated conciliar, not autocratic, proclamation of doctrine and dogma?
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« Reply #559 on: January 12, 2014, 04:19:01 AM »

So, lets get back to it.  Where does the Catholic Church teach the Pope is SUPERIOR to an Ecumenical Council.  Stop with the word games and get right to the heart of it, Catholic Church teachings.  I have provided CCC (you know, the Catechism of the Catholic Church) sources which deny the claims, but now its up to you guys to prove.  

And in case you missed it the first time:

[CCC 891] "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when,
as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a
definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in
the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the Supreme Magisterium,"
above all in
an Ecumenical Council.
When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as
being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of
faith. This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of Divine Revelation itself.

(for those still confused on what the CC actually teaches, not what you heard one day at the bus stop)

(and see how the Pope and the Bishops are together the Magisterium, something also confused on this thread)

Go...

*If you are going to argue against something, you should make sure you know what you are arguing against.  There is an old saying, "Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt".  You should know what the Catholic Church actually believes before you start attacking it.  Then, you can actually disagree with what it does teach rather than what you THINK it teaches.*
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 04:32:10 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #560 on: January 12, 2014, 04:24:08 AM »

So, lets get back to it.  Where does the Catholic Church teach the Pope is SUPERIOR to an Ecumenical Council.  Stop with the word games and get right to the heart of it, Catholic Church teachings.  I have provided CCC (you know, the Catechism of the Catholic Church) sources which deny the claims, but now its up to you guys to prove.  

And in case you missed it the first time:

[CCC 891] "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when,
as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a
definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in
the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the Supreme Magisterium,"
above all in
an Ecumenical Council.
When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as
being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of
faith. This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of Divine Revelation itself.

(for those still confused on what the CC actually teaches, not what you heard one day at the bus stop)

Go...
Have you become Roman Catholic during your break from this forum? Otherwise, it's quite funny to watch an Orthodox Christian defend the Roman Catholic faith as you have tonight.
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« Reply #561 on: January 12, 2014, 04:36:11 AM »

So, lets get back to it.  Where does the Catholic Church teach the Pope is SUPERIOR to an Ecumenical Council.  Stop with the word games and get right to the heart of it, Catholic Church teachings.  I have provided CCC (you know, the Catechism of the Catholic Church) sources which deny the claims, but now its up to you guys to prove.  

And in case you missed it the first time:

[CCC 891] "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when,
as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a
definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in
the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the Supreme Magisterium,"
above all in
an Ecumenical Council.
When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as
being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of
faith. This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of Divine Revelation itself.

(for those still confused on what the CC actually teaches, not what you heard one day at the bus stop)

Go...
Have you become Roman Catholic during your break from this forum? Otherwise, it's quite funny to watch an Orthodox Christian defend the Roman Catholic faith as you have tonight.

It's not funny, but tragic.  Sad  Cry  Cry
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 04:37:05 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #562 on: January 12, 2014, 04:41:19 AM »

So, lets get back to it.  Where does the Catholic Church teach the Pope is SUPERIOR to an Ecumenical Council.  Stop with the word games and get right to the heart of it, Catholic Church teachings.  I have provided CCC (you know, the Catechism of the Catholic Church) sources which deny the claims, but now its up to you guys to prove.  

And in case you missed it the first time:

[CCC 891] "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when,
as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a
definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in
the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the Supreme Magisterium,"
above all in
an Ecumenical Council.
When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as
being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of
faith. This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of Divine Revelation itself.

(for those still confused on what the CC actually teaches, not what you heard one day at the bus stop)

Go...
Have you become Roman Catholic during your break from this forum? Otherwise, it's quite funny to watch an Orthodox Christian defend the Roman Catholic faith as you have tonight.

It's not funny, but tragic.  Sad  Cry  Cry

So, you have nothing?  I am honestly surprised, but I was at least hoping for something substantial.  Tragic indeed.  You are usually really good at this, but I suppose we all have our moments.  Around these parts, the anti-Catholicism is stronger than sensible discourse.  What is tragic about my defending something or someone against false accusations (lies)?  I don't have to agree with them to defend what is right.

I hope this teaches some of you something very serious.  It is one thing to make a claim; it is another to actually back it up.  It also should show you probably should actually know what you are talking about before you start blasting someone or something (i.e., 95% of what is said on this forum regarding the Catholic Church).
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« Reply #563 on: January 12, 2014, 04:43:33 AM »

Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. Huh

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.
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« Reply #564 on: January 12, 2014, 04:47:58 AM »

Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. Huh

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

EDIT:  I found it and still it does not support the claim the Pope is superior to an Ecumenical Council, at least not in the context suggested here.
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« Reply #565 on: January 12, 2014, 04:56:59 AM »

Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. Huh

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

Dzheremi provided source and text, yet you still are not satisfied.

As for your RC apologetics, the wisdom of many an Orthodox sage comes to mind with regard to those new to the faith: they should concentrate in growing in the faith, and not concern themselves with what the heterodox teach or believe, lest the foundation of their own faith be compromised.

But what would I know, I'm just an old grump.
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« Reply #566 on: January 12, 2014, 04:58:26 AM »

Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. Huh

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

Dzheremi provided source and text, yet you still are not satisfied.

As for your RC apologetics, the wisdom of many an Orthodox sage comes to mind with regard to those new to the faith: they should concentrate in growing in the faith, and not concern themselves with what the heterodox teach or believe, lest the foundation of their own faith be compromised.

But what would I know, I'm just an old grump.

Satisfied with what?  He provided nothing but one quote and nothing else.  That isn't much.  Don't we have a typical response to Protestants who do this with bible scripture?

So, folks around here are going to start worrying about Orthodoxy and stop worrying about Catholicism?  That will be a refreshing thing to witness.  It will be even more refreshing if they can actually get along and agree within Orthodoxy rather than fight like siblings claiming the other is wrong and they are right.
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« Reply #567 on: January 12, 2014, 05:02:41 AM »

Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. Huh

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

Dzheremi provided source and text, yet you still are not satisfied.

As for your RC apologetics, the wisdom of many an Orthodox sage comes to mind with regard to those new to the faith: they should concentrate in growing in the faith, and not concern themselves with what the heterodox teach or believe, lest the foundation of their own faith be compromised.

But what would I know, I'm just an old grump.

Satisfied with what?  He provided nothing but one quote and nothing else.  That isn't much.

So, folks around here are going to start worrying about Orthodoxy and stop worrying about Catholicism?  That will be a refreshing thing to witness.

I'm not worried about Catholicism, it cannot shake my Orthodox faith, but I will proclaim and defend Orthodoxy when the need arises, be it on this forum, or in real life. Can you say the same for yourself?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 05:03:19 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #568 on: January 12, 2014, 05:08:44 AM »

It will be even more refreshing if they can actually get along and agree within Orthodoxy rather than fight like siblings claiming the other is wrong and they are right.

Wow. Have you grown so much in the faith in your short time in the Church that you know and have experienced the fullness of its teaching?  Huh
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« Reply #569 on: January 12, 2014, 05:13:59 AM »

Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. Huh

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

Dzheremi provided source and text, yet you still are not satisfied.

As for your RC apologetics, the wisdom of many an Orthodox sage comes to mind with regard to those new to the faith: they should concentrate in growing in the faith, and not concern themselves with what the heterodox teach or believe, lest the foundation of their own faith be compromised.

But what would I know, I'm just an old grump.

Satisfied with what?  He provided nothing but one quote and nothing else.  That isn't much.

So, folks around here are going to start worrying about Orthodoxy and stop worrying about Catholicism?  That will be a refreshing thing to witness.

I'm not worried about Catholicism, it cannot shake my Orthodox faith, but I will proclaim and defend Orthodoxy when the need arises, be it on this forum, or in real life. Can you say the same for yourself?

You defend the Orthodox faith by making false claims against another faith?  How does that work?

Me?  I defend the truth no matter who is wrong.  The truth is, telling lies about the Catholic Church is wrong.  If you disagree with something, fine, but don't lie about what someone else says.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 05:17:57 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #570 on: January 12, 2014, 05:17:35 AM »

It will be even more refreshing if they can actually get along and agree within Orthodoxy rather than fight like siblings claiming the other is wrong and they are right.

Wow. Have you grown so much in the faith in your short time in the Church that you know and have experienced the fullness of its teaching?  Huh

This addresses what I said how?  That's right, it didn't, but since you brought it up I can tell when people act juvenile and it doesn't take 20 years in the desert to figure that out. 

Instead of attempting to belittle my experience and knowledge, try actually supporting your claims and if you can't just say so.  At least then you will maintain your dignity.  This applies to a lot of people here, not just you.
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« Reply #571 on: January 12, 2014, 05:19:41 AM »

Um...what? The portion I placed in italics is a direct quote from the constitution itself, which I linked in the same post so that you could read it in the context of the whole text. Huh

Boy...even using the Vatican's own documents to discuss the issue leads to trouble. Am I on CAF right now...? Is it April Fool's day already?

If I gave you a quote from the bible and said it was in John, would that be enough for you or would you want a more specific place to look?

I named the document, I linked to the full document, and I quoted the relevant portion of the document. It is the constitution of the Vatican council. I don't know what else you want, but I'm less than interested in continuing this conversation, as I'm not RC.

I am not Roman Catholic either, but what does that have to do with anything?  You participated in the discussion and I asked for a specific place to look within a large amount of information.  If you can’t or won’t provide that, it’s ok with me too as I strongly suspect your interpretation is wrong and out of context.

Dzheremi provided source and text, yet you still are not satisfied.

As for your RC apologetics, the wisdom of many an Orthodox sage comes to mind with regard to those new to the faith: they should concentrate in growing in the faith, and not concern themselves with what the heterodox teach or believe, lest the foundation of their own faith be compromised.

But what would I know, I'm just an old grump.

Satisfied with what?  He provided nothing but one quote and nothing else.  That isn't much.

So, folks around here are going to start worrying about Orthodoxy and stop worrying about Catholicism?  That will be a refreshing thing to witness.

I'm not worried about Catholicism, it cannot shake my Orthodox faith, but I will proclaim and defend Orthodoxy when the need arises, be it on this forum, or in real life. Can you say the same for yourself?

You defend the Orthodox faith by making false claims against another?  How does that work?

Me?  I defend the truth no matter who is wrong.  The truth is, telling lies about the Catholic Church is wrong.  If you disagree with something, fine, but don't lie about what someone else says.

I misrepresented no-one and nothing.

As for the truth you claim to defend, it might be more profitable for you to seek and defend Truth, the truth of the faith you have been recently baptized into.
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« Reply #572 on: January 12, 2014, 05:21:45 AM »

I see the favorite car manufacturer around here is still Dodge.   Sad
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« Reply #573 on: January 12, 2014, 05:24:11 AM »

It will be even more refreshing if they can actually get along and agree within Orthodoxy rather than fight like siblings claiming the other is wrong and they are right.

Wow. Have you grown so much in the faith in your short time in the Church that you know and have experienced the fullness of its teaching?  Huh

This addresses what I said how?  That's right, it didn't, but since you brought it up I can tell when people act juvenile and it doesn't take 20 years in the desert to figure that out. 

Instead of attempting to belittle my experience and knowledge, try actually supporting your claims and if you can't just say so.  At least then you will maintain your dignity.  This applies to a lot of people here, not just you.

You might wish to look at my posting history here, where I have frequently defended Orthodoxy from the established traditions of the Church, notably her liturgical and iconographic deposits. There is where the core and essence of Truth lies, everything else flows from there. You would do well to immerse yourself in these treasures, and leave unprofitable heterodox apologetics aside.
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« Reply #574 on: January 12, 2014, 05:25:17 AM »

It's attractive for me on two fronts.
....
and convenience; it's large, powerful and influential.
Power comes and goes.

Meh, still half of the world's Christian population are Catholic.

By "Catholic", do you mean (1) Weekly Mass-going, fully-obedient-to-the-Magisterium Catholics; or (2) anyone calling him/herself a Catholic?

I mean statistically. I know many people who are Catholic don't believe or attend.

Catholics just 'obey'

I know a great many who aren't all that well versed in the church anyway. A number believe that the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Jesus
And I have met a great many who are extremely well versed in the Church teachings, Scripture and Tradition.  They do obey, but not in the way you seem to imply.
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« Reply #575 on: January 12, 2014, 05:26:27 AM »

There are plenty of distortions in popular Orthodox polemical material. Orthodox apologists are often so eager to distance themselves from the RCC that they distort Orthodoxy.

Very true, unfortunately. 
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« Reply #576 on: January 12, 2014, 05:27:19 AM »

Through the history of RCC, I know that it is not the true Church of God .But why is it still so big and so attractive?


And how do RCC Christians view Her corrupted history?

Much of it relies on its 'bigness' which has a degree of self-support. People see its vastness and think that there's something to it.

I have found when debating Catholics on the church they rely on the 'authority' of sources, rather than checking facts for themselves. They rely on quote-mines.

There's simply knee-jerk responses to discussions along set patterns. Instead of dealing with evidence they simply throw more quotes/'evidence' into the discussion as if sheer weight works.

They also stifle debate - such as on catholicanswers where they have steadily eroded the ability of non-Catholics to freely discuss matters


Maybe because most Catholics don't strive to be internet apologists

"Quote mining" as you call it has yo be understood from the perspective of a catholic. When a quote says something's so explicit, its very hard not to use it as evidence. The fact is most Christians don't care about debating the crazy stuff we debate here. The average Christian probably does not even know about how the holy spirit proceeds etc.

Secondly the vastness of the CC is not so much its greatest appeal but its ancientness and strict adherence to moral law. Like here in South Africa , the CC isn't big, a few million, but people convert every year in because of said reasons amongst others

The quotes RCs bring are never 'explicit' they are always out of context, or on some occasions downright fabricated. The RCs that I've dialogued with anyway.

You've been conversing with the wrong Catholics. Honestly. I have tones of quotes that are so explicit that it boggles the mind to see some orthodox say "it means something else , its out of context" when even the surrounding context doesn't change the meaning of the quote.

Look sometimes i see Catholics quote things that are genuinely out of context. However I see many orthodox too who simply use the "out of context " claim as a cop out to confronting an explicit quote. It goes both ways.

It certainly does as evidenced in this thread.
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« Reply #577 on: January 12, 2014, 05:30:26 AM »

But, after ten years in a terrible Mass, and the plain hypocrisy of how the hierarchy 'interprets' Catholic teaching, I had to get out.  

What sort of hypocrisy?

They teach as if hundreds of years of teaching and dogma can just be ignored.  The dogma is no salvation outside of the Church, for example, yet Pope Francis teaches atheists can just follow their conscious and be saved.  The German bishops want to give communion to remarried Catholics even though that is clearly against Catholic teaching.  The Traditional Latin Mass was supposedly banned for fifty years and yet Pope Benedict said that was a lie and it could be said by any priest who wanted to say it without the permission of his bishop.  And don't even get me started on every Vatican II pope being put up for sainthood.  

Except for the first one, these are all cultural, not dogmatic.  I would have to study the first one before I made a comment.  I wouldn't want to say something which isn't true like so many other people seem to enjoy doing.  Pope Francis is often quoted out of context.
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« Reply #578 on: January 12, 2014, 06:39:19 AM »

But, after ten years in a terrible Mass, and the plain hypocrisy of how the hierarchy 'interprets' Catholic teaching, I had to get out.  

What sort of hypocrisy?

They teach as if hundreds of years of teaching and dogma can just be ignored.  The dogma is no salvation outside of the Church, for example, yet Pope Francis teaches atheists can just follow their conscious and be saved.  The German bishops want to give communion to remarried Catholics even though that is clearly against Catholic teaching.  The Traditional Latin Mass was supposedly banned for fifty years and yet Pope Benedict said that was a lie and it could be said by any priest who wanted to say it without the permission of his bishop.  And don't even get me started on every Vatican II pope being put up for sainthood.  

Except for the first one, these are all cultural, not dogmatic.  I would have to study the first one before I made a comment.  I wouldn't want to say something which isn't true like so many other people seem to enjoy doing.  Pope Francis is often quoted out of context.

Pope Francis doesn't need to be quoted 'out of context'.  I am so sick of that canard.  You should get off CAF for a while. 
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« Reply #579 on: January 12, 2014, 06:54:05 AM »

But, after ten years in a terrible Mass, and the plain hypocrisy of how the hierarchy 'interprets' Catholic teaching, I had to get out.  

What sort of hypocrisy?

They teach as if hundreds of years of teaching and dogma can just be ignored.  The dogma is no salvation outside of the Church, for example, yet Pope Francis teaches atheists can just follow their conscious and be saved.  The German bishops want to give communion to remarried Catholics even though that is clearly against Catholic teaching.  The Traditional Latin Mass was supposedly banned for fifty years and yet Pope Benedict said that was a lie and it could be said by any priest who wanted to say it without the permission of his bishop.  And don't even get me started on every Vatican II pope being put up for sainthood.  

Except for the first one, these are all cultural, not dogmatic.  I would have to study the first one before I made a comment.  I wouldn't want to say something which isn't true like so many other people seem to enjoy doing.  Pope Francis is often quoted out of context.

Pope Francis doesn't need to be quoted 'out of context'.  I am so sick of that canard.  You should get off CAF for a while.  
Right, so when he says something, someone takes it out of context and the next day he has to tell them they were wrong, it's really just he got caught...is that about right?

I don't have to be on CAF (Huh) to realize this, I just have to be able to read.  I'd say most of what I read about the Pope is taken out of context by modern secularist types who desperately want to convince people the Catholic Church has changed on hot topic matters, which it has not, of course.  It's no different than if someone did it to the Metropolitan of Russia and accused him of something unjustly, which had been done or the EP of Constantinople.

You sound like a high school girl who dated a Marine and got her feelings hurt so she becomes anti-Marine Corps, or someone who had a big rig almost run them off the road once so all truck drivers are reckless.  

I do agree the Pope doesn't need to be quoted out of context; however, that doesn't stop him from being quoted out of context on a regular basis. In fact, I bet you fell for an out of context quote. 

But it's nice you focused only on this part and ignored the rest as if they don't matter (though they apparently did before) and you seem to be, as a Catholic, unaware of those things.  Strange indeed.
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« Reply #580 on: January 12, 2014, 06:55:01 AM »

But, after ten years in a terrible Mass, and the plain hypocrisy of how the hierarchy 'interprets' Catholic teaching, I had to get out.  

What sort of hypocrisy?

They teach as if hundreds of years of teaching and dogma can just be ignored.  The dogma is no salvation outside of the Church, for example, yet Pope Francis teaches atheists can just follow their conscious and be saved.  The German bishops want to give communion to remarried Catholics even though that is clearly against Catholic teaching.  The Traditional Latin Mass was supposedly banned for fifty years and yet Pope Benedict said that was a lie and it could be said by any priest who wanted to say it without the permission of his bishop.  And don't even get me started on every Vatican II pope being put up for sainthood.  

Except for the first one, these are all cultural, not dogmatic.  I would have to study the first one before I made a comment.  I wouldn't want to say something which isn't true like so many other people seem to enjoy doing.  Pope Francis is often quoted out of context.

Former Roman Catholics have posted on this thread. Are you saying they're not presenting RC teachings correctly?
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« Reply #581 on: January 12, 2014, 06:58:54 AM »


Please pay close attention to what is actually being said, thanks!  Also, this addresses another question you asked in a separate post as evidence. 

Thank you for the ironic quote. I noted that you think 'presides' doesn't mean superior. I don't know why you have this novel interpretation.
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« Reply #582 on: January 12, 2014, 07:00:39 AM »

If I asked you to show me how much water was in the ocean, how would you respond?  By telling me to stand on the beach and take it all in?  
This makes no sense. I can now see why your posts don't see 'superior' and 'presides' as similar.
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« Reply #583 on: January 12, 2014, 07:03:02 AM »

I see the favorite car manufacturer around here is still Dodge.   Sad
Thank you for another ironic post. I invited you to come up with specific examples for your claim. This still has not happened.
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« Reply #584 on: January 12, 2014, 07:04:34 AM »


It certainly does as evidenced in this thread.

What is being misquoted on this thread?
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