Why is RCC so attractive?

[Cyrillic]

Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?

Google St. Samuel the Confessor for the torture part. He's one among many.

Cyrillic, that is hagiography.

It is. I was too lazy to look through Zachariah of Mytilene's Chronicles to copypaste one of the many examples. But look what I found in an old thread:

^He is, but in this context "OO Emperors" refer to those Emperors who rejected Chalcedon and persecuted its supporters. Are there any such Emperors?

Not in the Byzantine (Late Roman) Empire.

It's said that about one in five Byzantine emperors were ethnically Armenian, but none of them were OO.  They were all Chalcedonian.

Interestingly enough, the emperors who did the most vicious persecution against the Armenians were ones who were themselves ethnically Armenian.  maurice, in particular, decimated the Armenian population through death marches.  He's gone down in history as one of the worst villains in Armenian history.

But was this not in context with the Persian wars? Armenia was a Persian ally. The Romans and Persians were bitter enemies. Enemies in late antiquity didn't play any nicer than enemies in the 20th century. IIRC, the Armenians didn't reject Chalcedon formally until after Maurice's death.

maurice lived a century after the Armenians rejected Chalcedon at the Council of Dvin.

Regarding politics with Persia, maurice was very warm toward the Persians and was a personal friend of their king.  In fact maurice gave his daughter to the Persian king to add to his pagan harem.

It was probably his warm relations with the Persians that gave maurice the confidence to think he could eliminate the Armenians without any negative consequences.  The Byzantines always relied upon the Armenians to help them during times when the Persians attacked, and the Armenians always gave them that help.  An example was when the Persians stole the Holy Cross after maurice's death.  maurice's successor called upon the Armenians for help, and it was Armenian troops who actually captured the Cross for the Byzantines.  The Cross was then taken in procession across Armenia on its way to Constantinople.  That is the event we celebrate every year on September 14.  

It is important to note that this happened after maurice's persecution of the Armenians.  Although there was bad feeling against the Byzantines for what happened, the Armenians did not think twice about saving the Cross.

Anyway, maurice was good friends with the Persian king Khosrov, so he probably thought he did not need them.  In fact, he even wrote an infamous letter to the Persian king, asking for his help in getting rid of the Armenians:

In that period the Byzantine emperor ordered a letter written to the Iranian king. [It was] a complaint about the [45] princes of all Armenia, and their troops [which read as follows]:

"There is a crooked and disobedient people which dwells between us and causes trouble. Come now, I shall assemble mine and send them to Thrace. Assemble yours and have them taken East. Should they die, [our] enemies will be the ones dying; should they kill others it will be our enemies who perish, and we shall live in peace. But should they remain in their own country, we shall have no rest" [g47].

Then the two [rulers] united. The emperor started ordering [the Armenians] to assemble to go to Thrace, and he was implementing the order with extreme violence. [The Armenian princes and their troops] began to flee from the [Byzantine] sector and to go in service to the Iranian king—especially those whose country lay under [the emperor's] jurisdiction. Now [Xosrov] received all [the fugitives] with more exaltation and much greater gifts than the emperor had ever bestowed on them. This occurred even more when he saw them fleeing from the emperor, he wanted to win them to his side with even greater affection.

http://rbedrosian.com/sebtoc.html


The death march to Thrace resulted in thousands of deaths.  It's a part of our history, and I remember hearing about this even as a kid.  Yet, just a few decades after this happened, when the next Byzantine emperor needed the Armenians to help him fight against the Persians, the Armenians did so, leading the Byzantine army in rescuing the Cross.

[Alpo]

It might be a bit too late for such a disclaimer, Alpo.

I truly hope not. This forum is a really sad place if EOs cannot comment on any OO-related thing or OOs cannot comment on any EO-related thing without it leading into an armageddons, earthquakes, famines and dozens of cans of worms.

[walter1234]

Although what we discuss does not match with the heading / topic, but I hope we can continue this discussion!  

I am interested about the persecution of oppenents in Church History of OO,EO, RCC and Protestant.

Can the moderator change the topic of this thread?

[dzheremi]

It might be a bit too late for such a disclaimer, Alpo.

I truly hope not. This forum is a really sad place if EOs cannot comment on any OO-related thing or OOs cannot comment on any EO-related thing without it leading into an armageddons, earthquakes, famines and dozens of cans of worms.

 

Forgive me, Alpo, I didn't mean to imply anything like that. Only that the argument has already started, whether any of us wanted it to or not.

[Severian]

Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?

Google St. Samuel the Confessor for the torture part. He's one among many.

Cyrillic, that is absolute unquestionable fact.

Fixed that for you!

Couldn't resist trolling.

[Alpo]

Forgive me, Alpo, I didn't mean to imply anything like that. Only that the argument has already started, whether any of us wanted it to or not.

Sorry for misunderstanding. I didn't thought that you implied it either. No offence taken.

[William]

You can't quote from the Private Forums.

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.

[Severian]

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.

Which is...?

[Cyrillic]

You can't quote from the Private Forums.

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.

Oh woops, didn't notice it was from the private forum. It's too late to edit now, sorry.

[William]

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.

Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...

[macclesfieldfan1990]

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past? 

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

So?

[Cyrillic]

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.

Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...

Start another thread.

[Severian]

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.

Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...

Start another thread.

Or PM me.

[Shanghaiski]

So, bad stuff happened. Don't freak out.

[Azul]

because it is more scholastic , more well organised and more codified/official.

[Wyatt]

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

True! We're all humans.  It is not the fault of the faith, but rather the people who misinterpret and misrepresent the faith.

Except when it's people who happen to be RCs who do it, then suddenly it's because of our evil, corrupt religion. 

[Iconodule]

One word answer: Dante.

[choy]

because it is more scholastic , more well organised and more codified/official.

True.  And if you are Protestant, you are already of the same frame of mind.  Easier to grasp.  When I become Eastern Catholic I tried to get into the Orthodox mindset.  2 years have passed and I feel I'm just starting to think more "Eastern" than Western.

[Achronos]

One word answer: Dante.

And I'll add Aquinas too, for some folks like me. For Protestant Christians when they encounter Aquinas' theology they get blown away by his apparent intellectual prowess, that they thought Christianity was never capable of that kind of depth before.

[walter1234]

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.

Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...

Start another thread.

Where is the new thread?

[Kerdy]

The Catholic Church is very appealing and beautiful.  If it were not for a small handful of things I could not reconcile within the Catholic Church, today I would be Catholic.  Instead, by the grace of God, I found some Orthodox brothers who showed me the problems I could not come to grips with in the Catholic Church did not exist in the Orthodox Church, so here I am.

At least, this is the shortened version.

[neon_knights]

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.

1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

[walter1234]

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.

1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?

[walter1234]

It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself

If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

[Alpo]

If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not everyone was born in 21st centyry West.

[walter1234]

If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not every was born 21st centyry West.

Not everybody's voice are respected before 21st century?

[Cyrillic]

If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not every was born 21st centyry West.

Not everybody's voice are respected before 21st century?

No, there were different values.

[walter1234]

If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not every was born 21st centyry West.

Not everybody's voice are respected before 21st century?

No, there were different values.

Their values had not been influenced by Christ and His church? (Christ taught us to love and pray for our enemies, but not kill them)
The persecutors' value may have not been influenfed by Christ and His church. How about the others in (Orthodox) Church ?

[walter1234]

This. When I discovered that protestantism was nonsense the first thing I did was studying RC-ism.

Can you explain more about this in detail?

Two things started my journey:

1) Sola Scriptura, one of the doctrinal pillars of protestantism, says that every doctrine should come from Scripture (alone), but Scripture never says this, thus Sola Scriptura contradicts itself.

2) When I started reading the Church Fathers I found out that the 1st and 2nd century Church taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist and had bishops. Read St. Ignatius' epistles for example.

So after that I started studying the only Church I really knew who taught this: the RCC. But then I found out about the Orthodox Church and then I started comparing the two. In the end I found out (through reading history and the Church Fathers) that the Orthodox Church is the Church found on Pentecost in 33AD by Jesus Christ.

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so ?

There has always been sin and evil amongst the disciples of Christ. Remember Judas?

What is the difference between RCC and Orthodoxy? Why are  you so sure that EO is the only true church ,but not RCC？

[Cyrillic]

What is the difference between RCC and Orthodoxy? Why are  you so sure that EO is the only true church ,but not RCC？

There are a lot of things, but I have a hard time believing that:

1) The Holy Spirit proceeds hypostatically from the Son as well as from the Father (i.e. filioque).

2)  The bishop of Rome is infallible when he pronounces something ex cathedra

3) The bishop of Rome has universal jurisdiction and can appoint and depose any bishop at will and that this is based on divine right.

4) God can be 'proven' by reason.

On top of that I like :

1)  The essence-energies distinction as formulated by St. Gregory Palamas and the Fifth Council of Constantinople

2) The Divine Liturgy

3) Eastern Christianity and the Eastern Fathers in general.

[walter1234]

How can we know holy spiriy is proceeded from father alone,not father and son?

God can be  proved by some some reason?what does it mean?

[walter1234]

On top of that I like :

1)  The essence-energies distinction as formulated by St. Gregory Palamas and the Fifth Council of Constantinople

2) The Divine Liturgy

3) Eastern Christianity and the Eastern Fathers in general.

You mean you like all these things from Eastern Orthodox Church？

[Cyrillic]

On top of that I like :

1)  The essence-energies distinction as formulated by St. Gregory Palamas and the Fifth Council of Constantinople

2) The Divine Liturgy

3) Eastern Christianity and the Eastern Fathers in general.

You mean you like all these things from Eastern Orthodox Church？

Yes.

[Cyrillic]

How can we know holy spiriy is proceeded from father alone,not father and son?

Perhaps a little easy, but:

"The Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me (John 15:26)"

God can be  proved by some some reason?what does it mean?

That God cannot be proven with the human mind.

[Nephi]

I find the Incarnational approach to spirituality of traditional Roman Catholicism extremely attractive, but other than that its lacking Orthodoxy.

[Anastasia1]

I used to be more attracted to Catholicism, it's structure, traditions, structured life... but now I find it cold and lacking. I could never quite accept the Pope because of my Protestant upbringing, and the services seem more like a western shortcut that is too structured and artificial compared to Orthodoxy which seems more natural, especially in the OO church.

[Shanghaiski]

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.

1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?

One can't expect all Orthodox Christians to have that much vision.

[Cyrillic]

I used to be more attracted to Catholicism, it's structure, traditions, structured life... but now I find it cold and lacking. I could never quite accept the Pope because of my Protestant upbringing, and the services seem more like a western shortcut that is too structured and artificial compared to Orthodoxy which seems more natural, especially in the OO church.

In my eyes the Armenian liturgy looks quite similiar to the RC Tridentine one. Especially the thing with the evil hats.

[dzheremi]

Evil hats? 

[walter1234]

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.

1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?

One can't expect all Orthodox Christians to have that much vision.

If all Orthodox Christians  had the vision to kill the oppponents, that means the whole church was murder.

If all Orthodox Christians  supported the persecution of oppenents, that means church as whole became evil and was  subjected by sin.Church as a whole indeeded falled and corrupted.

I still struggle this with the teaching of infalliable church(e.g Church as a whole would never be overcome by sin and death., even just a moment.)

[Shanghaiski]

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.

1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?

One can't expect all Orthodox Christians to have that much vision.

If all Orthodox Christians  had the vision to kill the oppponents, that means the whole church was murder.

If all Orthodox Christians  supported the persecution of oppenents, that means church as whole became evil and was  subjected by sin.Church as a whole indeeded falled and corrupted.

I still struggle this with the teaching of infalliable church(e.g Church as a whole would never be overcome by sin and death., even just a moment.)

Apparently, sarcasm does not translate.

"Persecution" is something which can be defined in several different ways and when we look back at history from our vantage point, we're likely going to see things not as they were, but according to our bias.

No, the Church was not the entity persecuting anyone. There were laws that favored Christianity and set limits on non-Christian religions and discouraged heresies. Beyond that, there were exceptional moments when certain people went beyond or outside of the law.

I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for beyond this. People should not view history as if the historical record is somehow complete. It's only a little picture, and often distorted. What is in the historical record is what has managed first to be recorded at the time and second to have survived to the present day. So, it's not worth getting bent out of shape about.

[Cyrillic]

Evil hats? 

Yes, evil Armenian hats

[walter1234]

Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?

[Cyrillic]

Is there any recognized Saints persecuting the opponents?

St. Constantine persecuted arians, sort of, until they convinced him to stop doing it.

[walter1234]

Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant!No love and mercy on his enemies!! Not follow Jesus' teaching and pray for our enemies!

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