OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 02, 2014, 06:00:28 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why is RCC so attractive?  (Read 11210 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,087


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2012, 05:25:04 PM »

Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?

Google St. Samuel the Confessor for the torture part. He's one among many.

Cyrillic, that is hagiography.

It is. I was too lazy to look through Zachariah of Mytilene's Chronicles to copypaste one of the many examples. But look what I found in an old thread:

^He is, but in this context "OO Emperors" refer to those Emperors who rejected Chalcedon and persecuted its supporters. Are there any such Emperors?

Not in the Byzantine (Late Roman) Empire.

It's said that about one in five Byzantine emperors were ethnically Armenian, but none of them were OO.  They were all Chalcedonian.

Interestingly enough, the emperors who did the most vicious persecution against the Armenians were ones who were themselves ethnically Armenian.  maurice, in particular, decimated the Armenian population through death marches.  He's gone down in history as one of the worst villains in Armenian history.

But was this not in context with the Persian wars? Armenia was a Persian ally. The Romans and Persians were bitter enemies. Enemies in late antiquity didn't play any nicer than enemies in the 20th century. IIRC, the Armenians didn't reject Chalcedon formally until after Maurice's death.

maurice lived a century after the Armenians rejected Chalcedon at the Council of Dvin.

Regarding politics with Persia, maurice was very warm toward the Persians and was a personal friend of their king.  In fact maurice gave his daughter to the Persian king to add to his pagan harem.

It was probably his warm relations with the Persians that gave maurice the confidence to think he could eliminate the Armenians without any negative consequences.  The Byzantines always relied upon the Armenians to help them during times when the Persians attacked, and the Armenians always gave them that help.  An example was when the Persians stole the Holy Cross after maurice's death.  maurice's successor called upon the Armenians for help, and it was Armenian troops who actually captured the Cross for the Byzantines.  The Cross was then taken in procession across Armenia on its way to Constantinople.  That is the event we celebrate every year on September 14.  

It is important to note that this happened after maurice's persecution of the Armenians.  Although there was bad feeling against the Byzantines for what happened, the Armenians did not think twice about saving the Cross.

Anyway, maurice was good friends with the Persian king Khosrov, so he probably thought he did not need them.  In fact, he even wrote an infamous letter to the Persian king, asking for his help in getting rid of the Armenians:

Quote
In that period the Byzantine emperor ordered a letter written to the Iranian king. [It was] a complaint about the [45] princes of all Armenia, and their troops [which read as follows]:

"There is a crooked and disobedient people which dwells between us and causes trouble. Come now, I shall assemble mine and send them to Thrace. Assemble yours and have them taken East. Should they die, [our] enemies will be the ones dying; should they kill others it will be our enemies who perish, and we shall live in peace. But should they remain in their own country, we shall have no rest" [g47].

Then the two [rulers] united. The emperor started ordering [the Armenians] to assemble to go to Thrace, and he was implementing the order with extreme violence. [The Armenian princes and their troops] began to flee from the [Byzantine] sector and to go in service to the Iranian king—especially those whose country lay under [the emperor's] jurisdiction. Now [Xosrov] received all [the fugitives] with more exaltation and much greater gifts than the emperor had ever bestowed on them. This occurred even more when he saw them fleeing from the emperor, he wanted to win them to his side with even greater affection.

http://rbedrosian.com/sebtoc.html


The death march to Thrace resulted in thousands of deaths.  It's a part of our history, and I remember hearing about this even as a kid.  Yet, just a few decades after this happened, when the next Byzantine emperor needed the Armenians to help him fight against the Persians, the Armenians did so, leading the Byzantine army in rescuing the Cross.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 05:30:18 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,651



« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2012, 05:25:33 PM »

It might be a bit too late for such a disclaimer, Alpo.

I truly hope not. This forum is a really sad place if EOs cannot comment on any OO-related thing or OOs cannot comment on any EO-related thing without it leading into an armageddons, earthquakes, famines and dozens of cans of worms.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 05:26:23 PM by Alpo » Logged
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2012, 05:25:46 PM »

Although what we discuss does not match with the heading / topic, but I hope we can continue this discussion!  laugh

I am interested about the persecution of oppenents in Church History of OO,EO, RCC and Protestant.

Can the moderator change the topic of this thread?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 05:29:50 PM by walter1234 » Logged
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,109


« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2012, 05:33:47 PM »

It might be a bit too late for such a disclaimer, Alpo.

I truly hope not. This forum is a really sad place if EOs cannot comment on any OO-related thing or OOs cannot comment on any EO-related thing without it leading into an armageddons, earthquakes, famines and dozens of cans of worms.

 Huh

Forgive me, Alpo, I didn't mean to imply anything like that. Only that the argument has already started, whether any of us wanted it to or not.
Logged

Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2012, 05:40:56 PM »

Where's the "mass deportations" and torture?

Google St. Samuel the Confessor for the torture part. He's one among many.

Cyrillic, that is absolute unquestionable fact.
Fixed that for you! Tongue

Couldn't resist trolling. Cheesy
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,651



« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2012, 05:56:37 PM »

Huh

Forgive me, Alpo, I didn't mean to imply anything like that. Only that the argument has already started, whether any of us wanted it to or not.

Sorry for misunderstanding. I didn't thought that you implied it either. No offence taken. Smiley
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 06:00:38 PM by Alpo » Logged
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2012, 06:10:55 PM »


You can't quote from the Private Forums.

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2012, 06:12:46 PM »

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Which is...?
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,087


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2012, 06:18:10 PM »


You can't quote from the Private Forums.

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.

Oh woops, didn't notice it was from the private forum. It's too late to edit now, sorry.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 06:18:53 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2012, 06:21:09 PM »

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
macclesfieldfan1990
Moderated
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 129



« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2012, 06:29:01 PM »

You mean EO persecused OO Christian in the past?  Shocked

Yes. Exile, torture, murder, mass deportations etc.

So?
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,087


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2012, 06:31:41 PM »

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...

Start another thread.
Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2012, 06:35:52 PM »

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...

Start another thread.
Or PM me.
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2012, 06:38:11 PM »

So, bad stuff happened. Don't freak out.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2012, 07:20:20 PM »

because it is more scholastic , more well organised and more codified/official.
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2012, 08:37:50 PM »

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

True! We're all humans.  It is not the fault of the faith, but rather the people who misinterpret and misrepresent the faith.
Except when it's people who happen to be RCs who do it, then suddenly it's because of our evil, corrupt religion.  Roll Eyes
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,939


"My god is greater."


« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2012, 09:03:07 PM »

One word answer: Dante.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #62 on: November 25, 2012, 12:06:18 AM »

because it is more scholastic , more well organised and more codified/official.

True.  And if you are Protestant, you are already of the same frame of mind.  Easier to grasp.  When I become Eastern Catholic I tried to get into the Orthodox mindset.  2 years have passed and I feel I'm just starting to think more "Eastern" than Western.
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2012, 12:11:27 AM »

One word answer: Dante.
And I'll add Aquinas too, for some folks like me. For Protestant Christians when they encounter Aquinas' theology they get blown away by his apparent intellectual prowess, that they thought Christianity was never capable of that kind of depth before.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #64 on: November 25, 2012, 02:25:03 AM »

BTW that thread and the lack of convincing evidence presented is the reason I hold my current position.
Which is...?

I think we should switch forums...

Start another thread.

Where is the new thread?
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #65 on: November 25, 2012, 02:33:40 AM »

The Catholic Church is very appealing and beautiful.  If it were not for a small handful of things I could not reconcile within the Catholic Church, today I would be Catholic.  Instead, by the grace of God, I found some Orthodox brothers who showed me the problems I could not come to grips with in the Catholic Church did not exist in the Orthodox Church, so here I am.

At least, this is the shortened version.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:34:26 AM by Kerdy » Logged
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« Reply #66 on: November 25, 2012, 02:37:42 AM »

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.



Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.



1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means
Logged
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #67 on: November 25, 2012, 02:56:33 AM »

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.



Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.



1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:57:36 AM by walter1234 » Logged
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2012, 03:25:00 AM »

It seems that Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic are all fallen in certain point of their history. Embarrassed Catholic just more corrupt than Orthodox and Protestant in her history.

I can't recall the Oriental Orthodox persecuting anyone, but do you think this is a good way of measuring truth?

 Church as whole could perscute the oppenents together. To me, it seems that Church as a whole can still fall.  Cry

Those persecutions were carried out by individuals in the Church, it was never done by the Church itself
If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 03:45:00 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,651



« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2012, 04:06:48 AM »

If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not everyone was born in 21st centyry West.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 04:33:25 AM by Alpo » Logged
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2012, 04:10:13 AM »

If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not every was born 21st centyry West.
Not everybody's voice are respected before 21st century?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 04:10:25 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,087


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2012, 05:47:41 AM »

If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not every was born 21st centyry West.
Not everybody's voice are respected before 21st century?

No, there were different values.
Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2012, 06:11:38 AM »

If persecution were carried out by individuals or small group in the Church, why didn't the others in the Church/the whole Church  stop this individuals or small groups to do so?

Because not every was born 21st centyry West.
Not everybody's voice are respected before 21st century?

No, there were different values.
Their values had not been influenced by Christ and His church? (Christ taught us to love and pray for our enemies, but not kill them)
The persecutors' value may have not been influenfed by Christ and His church. How about the others in (Orthodox) Church ?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 06:23:54 AM by walter1234 » Logged
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2012, 09:00:30 AM »


This. When I discovered that protestantism was nonsense the first thing I did was studying RC-ism.

Can you explain more about this in detail?

Two things started my journey:

1) Sola Scriptura, one of the doctrinal pillars of protestantism, says that every doctrine should come from Scripture (alone), but Scripture never says this, thus Sola Scriptura contradicts itself.

2) When I started reading the Church Fathers I found out that the 1st and 2nd century Church taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist and had bishops. Read St. Ignatius' epistles for example.

So after that I started studying the only Church I really knew who taught this: the RCC. But then I found out about the Orthodox Church and then I started comparing the two. In the end I found out (through reading history and the Church Fathers) that the Orthodox Church is the Church found on Pentecost in 33AD by Jesus Christ.

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.

Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so ?


There has always been sin and evil amongst the disciples of Christ. Remember Judas?

What is the difference between RCC and Orthodoxy? Why are  you so sure that EO is the only true church ,but not RCC?
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,087


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2012, 09:08:13 AM »

What is the difference between RCC and Orthodoxy? Why are  you so sure that EO is the only true church ,but not RCC?

There are a lot of things, but I have a hard time believing that:

1) The Holy Spirit proceeds hypostatically from the Son as well as from the Father (i.e. filioque).

2)  The bishop of Rome is infallible when he pronounces something ex cathedra

3) The bishop of Rome has universal jurisdiction and can appoint and depose any bishop at will and that this is based on divine right.

4) God can be 'proven' by reason.

On top of that I like :

1)  The essence-energies distinction as formulated by St. Gregory Palamas and the Fifth Council of Constantinople

2) The Divine Liturgy

3) Eastern Christianity and the Eastern Fathers in general.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:10:36 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2012, 09:21:13 AM »

How can we know holy spiriy is proceeded from father alone,not father and son?

God can be  proved by some some reason?what does it mean?
Logged
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #76 on: November 25, 2012, 09:25:21 AM »

On top of that I like :

1)  The essence-energies distinction as formulated by St. Gregory Palamas and the Fifth Council of Constantinople

2) The Divine Liturgy

3) Eastern Christianity and the Eastern Fathers in general.


You mean you like all these things from Eastern Orthodox Church?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:25:55 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,087


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #77 on: November 25, 2012, 09:27:02 AM »

On top of that I like :

1)  The essence-energies distinction as formulated by St. Gregory Palamas and the Fifth Council of Constantinople

2) The Divine Liturgy

3) Eastern Christianity and the Eastern Fathers in general.


You mean you like all these things from Eastern Orthodox Church?

Yes.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:30:58 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,087


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #78 on: November 25, 2012, 09:28:35 AM »

How can we know holy spiriy is proceeded from father alone,not father and son?

Perhaps a little easy, but:

"The Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me (John 15:26)"

God can be  proved by some some reason?what does it mean?

That God cannot be proven with the human mind.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:29:00 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Miaphysite Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,256



« Reply #79 on: November 25, 2012, 12:13:59 PM »

I find the Incarnational approach to spirituality of traditional Roman Catholicism extremely attractive, but other than that its lacking Orthodoxy. Wink
Logged
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,182



« Reply #80 on: November 25, 2012, 12:23:48 PM »

I used to be more attracted to Catholicism, it's structure, traditions, structured life... but now I find it cold and lacking. I could never quite accept the Pope because of my Protestant upbringing, and the services seem more like a western shortcut that is too structured and artificial compared to Orthodoxy which seems more natural, especially in the OO church.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 12:25:08 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #81 on: November 25, 2012, 04:01:43 PM »

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.



Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.



1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?

One can't expect all Orthodox Christians to have that much vision.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,087


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #82 on: November 25, 2012, 04:10:52 PM »

I used to be more attracted to Catholicism, it's structure, traditions, structured life... but now I find it cold and lacking. I could never quite accept the Pope because of my Protestant upbringing, and the services seem more like a western shortcut that is too structured and artificial compared to Orthodoxy which seems more natural, especially in the OO church.

In my eyes the Armenian liturgy looks quite similiar to the RC Tridentine one. Especially the thing with the evil hats.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 04:12:50 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,109


« Reply #83 on: November 25, 2012, 04:21:48 PM »

Evil hats?  Huh
Logged

walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #84 on: November 25, 2012, 04:27:07 PM »

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.



Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.



1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?

One can't expect all Orthodox Christians to have that much vision.
If all Orthodox Christians  had the vision to kill the oppponents, that means the whole church was murder.

If all Orthodox Christians  supported the persecution of oppenents, that means church as whole became evil and was  subjected by sin.Church as a whole indeeded falled and corrupted.

I still struggle this with the teaching of infalliable church(e.g Church as a whole would never be overcome by sin and death., even just a moment.)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 04:32:11 PM by walter1234 » Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #85 on: November 25, 2012, 04:38:40 PM »

I'm pretty sure every single historical religious groups has persecuted people of other faiths at some point of history. If there is some group who didn't it's because they never had the chance due to politics of their time.



Why don't God protect His True Church not to be tempered by sin and evil? Why don't God stop His true Church to do so immediately?

The gate of Hade would not overcome God's true Church, even just a momnet.



1.) God allows exercise of free will, even among those in His church

2.) That isnt even remotely what that verse means

Is persecution of opponents just the decision of small groups/particular individuals in the ( Orthodox)Church? Does the whole Church support the persecution of the opponents?

One can't expect all Orthodox Christians to have that much vision.
If all Orthodox Christians  had the vision to kill the oppponents, that means the whole church was murder.

If all Orthodox Christians  supported the persecution of oppenents, that means church as whole became evil and was  subjected by sin.Church as a whole indeeded falled and corrupted.

I still struggle this with the teaching of infalliable church(e.g Church as a whole would never be overcome by sin and death., even just a moment.)

Apparently, sarcasm does not translate.

"Persecution" is something which can be defined in several different ways and when we look back at history from our vantage point, we're likely going to see things not as they were, but according to our bias.

No, the Church was not the entity persecuting anyone. There were laws that favored Christianity and set limits on non-Christian religions and discouraged heresies. Beyond that, there were exceptional moments when certain people went beyond or outside of the law.

I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for beyond this. People should not view history as if the historical record is somehow complete. It's only a little picture, and often distorted. What is in the historical record is what has managed first to be recorded at the time and second to have survived to the present day. So, it's not worth getting bent out of shape about.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,087


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #86 on: November 25, 2012, 04:41:39 PM »

Evil hats?  Huh

Yes, evil Armenian hats
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 04:42:03 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #87 on: November 25, 2012, 04:43:15 PM »

Is there any recognized Saint who persecuted the oppenents in his/her life?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 04:44:47 PM by walter1234 » Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,087


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #88 on: November 25, 2012, 04:44:24 PM »

Is there any recognized Saints persecuting the opponents?

St. Constantine persecuted arians, sort of, until they convinced him to stop doing it.
Logged

"But slay her he did not, for between dream and deed laws and practicalities remain"
-Willem Elschot, 'The Marriage'.
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #89 on: November 25, 2012, 04:46:09 PM »

Why a murder can still become the recognized Siants? THey broke the Ten Commendant!No love and mercy on his enemies!! Not follow Jesus' teaching and pray for our enemies!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 04:48:32 PM by walter1234 » Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.148 seconds with 72 queries.