Author Topic: Why is RCC so attractive?  (Read 16439 times)

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Offline theistgal

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #270 on: November 28, 2012, 08:16:42 PM »
Awesome theistgal is back!

Nice to see you again, how are you?

Doing great, being a "Happy Homemaker" and baking lots of cookies during the holiday (some of them actually edible!).  8)
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Offline Papist

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #271 on: November 28, 2012, 08:19:13 PM »
All that private devotions stuff (and the novenas and whatnot built around them) is something I struggled with when I was RC. While I know that they're technically not required belief, in my experience not believing them effectively places you outside of the RC mainstream (at least so far as concerns the Latin Church specifically), and many people will treat you accordingly. "How can you not believe in X, Y, Z? Aren't you Catholic?" It can be pretty discouraging.
Honestly, I don't know that many Catholics who are all that involved in the private devotions.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #272 on: November 28, 2012, 08:21:47 PM »
Well, I don't think that it's a great number of Catholics that go overboard with these things in the first place. It's more that many Catholics don't treat belief in those things as though it is optional even if they don't have a personal devotion to Our Lady of Fatima or Guadalupe or whatever.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #273 on: November 28, 2012, 08:22:42 PM »
This thread makes me glad I live in a so-called "minority-majority" city (42% "white"), where no matter what background someone appears to be from, you'd probably not risk much offense assuming that they're Hispanic (since, of course, Hispanics can be white, too, and a lot of people here claim Hispanic dissent via Spain, for obvious historical reasons). It eliminates this kind of arguing. Everybody enjoys their preferred color of chili and gets on with their lives.

Around here people who ID more with the "native peoples" use Laitno/a and those who tend to ID more with Spain go Hispanic. Or that is how it seems to me.

To my ears anymore Hispanic sounds either a bit old-fashioned or slightlyhighfalutin.
Latinos/Spanish/Hispanics are in no sense native to OH.

Tell them that.

Isa, you are about as wrong as possible on this one.

I don't even have to argue with you. Your arguments are ridiculous.

Use that large (not as large as mine) vocabulary and polyglot genius of yours to figure out what native means.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #274 on: November 28, 2012, 08:23:48 PM »
All that private devotions stuff (and the novenas and whatnot built around them) is something I struggled with when I was RC. While I know that they're technically not required belief, in my experience not believing them effectively places you outside of the RC mainstream (at least so far as concerns the Latin Church specifically), and many people will treat you accordingly. "How can you not believe in X, Y, Z? Aren't you Catholic?" It can be pretty discouraging.
Honestly, I don't know that many Catholics who are all that involved in the private devotions.

What exactly is a "private devotion"?
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Offline Papist

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #275 on: November 28, 2012, 08:31:53 PM »
All that private devotions stuff (and the novenas and whatnot built around them) is something I struggled with when I was RC. While I know that they're technically not required belief, in my experience not believing them effectively places you outside of the RC mainstream (at least so far as concerns the Latin Church specifically), and many people will treat you accordingly. "How can you not believe in X, Y, Z? Aren't you Catholic?" It can be pretty discouraging.
Honestly, I don't know that many Catholics who are all that involved in the private devotions.

What exactly is a "private devotion"?
Oh, stuff like particular novenas, or fatima, etc.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #276 on: November 28, 2012, 08:44:59 PM »
This thread makes me glad I live in a so-called "minority-majority" city (42% "white"), where no matter what background someone appears to be from, you'd probably not risk much offense assuming that they're Hispanic (since, of course, Hispanics can be white, too, and a lot of people here claim Hispanic dissent via Spain, for obvious historical reasons). It eliminates this kind of arguing. Everybody enjoys their preferred color of chili and gets on with their lives.

Around here people who ID more with the "native peoples" use Laitno/a and those who tend to ID more with Spain go Hispanic. Or that is how it seems to me.

To my ears anymore Hispanic sounds either a bit old-fashioned or slightlyhighfalutin.
Latinos/Spanish/Hispanics are in no sense native to OH.

Tell them that.

Isa, you are about as wrong as possible on this one.

I don't even have to argue with you. Your arguments are ridiculous.

Use that large (not as large as mine) vocabulary and polyglot genius of yours to figure out what native means.
Don't need to. I can read Mr. Webster's definition: grown, produced, or originating in a particular place or in the vicinity : local
 : living or growing naturally in a particular region : indigenous; constituting the original substance or source.

Hispanics/Latinos/Spanish are native to here:

and here:

but not here:
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #277 on: November 28, 2012, 08:47:23 PM »
All that private devotions stuff (and the novenas and whatnot built around them) is something I struggled with when I was RC. While I know that they're technically not required belief, in my experience not believing them effectively places you outside of the RC mainstream (at least so far as concerns the Latin Church specifically), and many people will treat you accordingly. "How can you not believe in X, Y, Z? Aren't you Catholic?" It can be pretty discouraging.
Honestly, I don't know that many Catholics who are all that involved in the private devotions.

What exactly is a "private devotion"?
Oh, stuff like particular novenas, or fatima, etc.

Why I don't google stuff like this puzzles me, actually it doesn't.

It comes from trying to actually talk to people in RL and have discussions.

More and more even "discussions" in RL are googlesions.

But I should just google such stuff for online "discussions".
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #278 on: November 28, 2012, 08:52:14 PM »
This thread makes me glad I live in a so-called "minority-majority" city (42% "white"), where no matter what background someone appears to be from, you'd probably not risk much offense assuming that they're Hispanic (since, of course, Hispanics can be white, too, and a lot of people here claim Hispanic dissent via Spain, for obvious historical reasons). It eliminates this kind of arguing. Everybody enjoys their preferred color of chili and gets on with their lives.

Around here people who ID more with the "native peoples" use Laitno/a and those who tend to ID more with Spain go Hispanic. Or that is how it seems to me.

To my ears anymore Hispanic sounds either a bit old-fashioned or slightlyhighfalutin.
Latinos/Spanish/Hispanics are in no sense native to OH.

Tell them that.

Isa, you are about as wrong as possible on this one.

I don't even have to argue with you. Your arguments are ridiculous.

Use that large (not as large as mine) vocabulary and polyglot genius of yours to figure out what native means.
Don't need to. I can read Mr. Webster's definition: grown, produced, or originating in a particular place or in the vicinity : local
 : living or growing naturally in a particular region : indigenous; constituting the original substance or source.

Hispanics/Latinos/Spanish are native to here:

and here:

but not here:


OK, I'll tell the latinos I know that they were not born here. Nor have they grown here.

They are native Ohioians. More so that I am. Since I wasn't born here.

When you are out of your depth you dog paddle in kiddy pool.

Stick to what you are good at, polemics against RCs and defending your right to anal sex and masturbation.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 08:52:27 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #279 on: November 28, 2012, 08:58:44 PM »
Oh and Isa, please explain to me how the other few dozen of ethnicities I listed off the top of my head don't exist here either.

Or are not "native".

Explain to us all how we are English again.

Something about speaking American (we have in my city bilingual street and business signs in more than a few neighborhoods, one right next to where I work) and shooting off fireworks and buying stuff on the Fourth of July?

lol.

Oh and "common law".
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #280 on: November 28, 2012, 09:00:16 PM »
I have a hard time telling if Orthonorm is being serious in this thread. Usually I don't, but now I do.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #281 on: November 28, 2012, 09:09:30 PM »
I have a hard time telling if Orthonorm is being serious in this thread. Usually I don't, but now I do.

Are you going to claim some sacred place from whence certain ethnicities hail as well?

Are you also going to tell me, all my black neighbors, the latinos community (not in the sense of "community" but where nearly everyone is latin and Spanish THE language spoken) the Vietnamese suburb, on and on an on, that we are English.

Although they were born here, they are not native Ohioians, but really come from where?

This is all laughable to me.

And this is me attempting to take seriously the pedestrian notions of identity for second.

Like I said, America shows the absurdity of identity.

Do I come from Ohio?

None of my family came from England.

Are various portions of my body from different places?

Sorry, but I don't follow this leitkultur stuff for a second. It might make sense for the conservative Europeans for another decade or two, but has never made sense here.

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Offline choy

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #282 on: November 28, 2012, 09:19:10 PM »
Well, I don't think that it's a great number of Catholics that go overboard with these things in the first place. It's more that many Catholics don't treat belief in those things as though it is optional even if they don't have a personal devotion to Our Lady of Fatima or Guadalupe or whatever.

I was dismayed that there is more emphasis on things like Divine Mercy or Fatima and a rather total lack of mention on anything from the First Millennium.  It is like it never happened.  And most casual RCs just assume that everything today is the same exact thing as it was from Pentecost.

For me it is not so much whether the faith is in heresy or not, I leave that to the more learned folks.  I'm just dismayed at the state of the faith that even if they do possess the fullness of truth, I cannot see it the way the faith is practiced and lived and taught today.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #283 on: November 28, 2012, 09:37:40 PM »
That was my experience too, Choy. Luckily (?), my father was raised in the pre-VII church, and I inherited some of my aunt's old religious stuff (e.g., an old missal from 1939 or so), so I knew better than to say that it is the same that it was in the first millennium. It isn't even the same as it was 60 years ago. At the time, of course, I accepted the standard RC line that such developments were organic and in some sense necessary to preserve and strengthen the faith of the people. Oops.

Orthonorm: Hahaha. That you for your reply. You illustrated why I posted the post you replied to.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #284 on: November 28, 2012, 09:38:23 PM »
OK, I'll tell the latinos I know that they were not born here. Nor have they grown here.

They are native Ohioians. More so that I am. Since I wasn't born here.

When you are out of your depth you dog paddle in kiddy pool.

Stick to what you are good at, polemics against RCs and defending your right to anal sex and masturbation.
Not even the extreme Chicano nationalists, in their wildest dreams, claim OH for their  Republica del Norte ("Aztlán")


The gringos and the gabachos got there first.  After the Iroquois and the rest.  Your Latinos ID with those natives?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #285 on: November 28, 2012, 09:52:35 PM »
Well, I don't think that it's a great number of Catholics that go overboard with these things in the first place. It's more that many Catholics don't treat belief in those things as though it is optional even if they don't have a personal devotion to Our Lady of Fatima or Guadalupe or whatever.

I was dismayed that there is more emphasis on things like Divine Mercy or Fatima and a rather total lack of mention on anything from the First Millennium.  It is like it never happened.  And most casual RCs just assume that everything today is the same exact thing as it was from Pentecost.

For me it is not so much whether the faith is in heresy or not, I leave that to the more learned folks.  I'm just dismayed at the state of the faith that even if they do possess the fullness of truth, I cannot see it the way the faith is practiced and lived and taught today.

You seem to have missed a great deal in terms of Catholic spiritual life.  It's funny how the blind monks always think the little bit of the elephant that they are touching is all that there is...

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #286 on: November 28, 2012, 10:20:48 PM »
It's funny how people still use that terrible "blind people touching the same elephant" analogy.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #287 on: November 28, 2012, 10:31:36 PM »
Oh and Isa, please explain to me how the other few dozen of ethnicities I listed off the top of my head don't exist here either.
Since you are the only one making that claim, you'll have to explain it.

Or are not "native".

Explain to us all how we are English again.
Since you are so worked up about 0.1% (the Vietnamese, even less than the 0.2% Amerinidans) and Hispanics/Latinos/Spanish 3.1%, putting the Blacks at 12.2% in just in passing, ignoring the largest group-the Germans at 26.5%-perhaps not.

You have 7.9% "American," one in the few areas in the country where such are in majority.


Something about speaking American (we have in my city bilingual street and business signs in more than a few neighborhoods, one right next to where I work)

I've been all over OH, and saw English everywhere.
and shooting off fireworks and buying stuff on the Fourth of July?
Why not the Second of September and Día de la Raza?

lol.
LOL indeed.

Oh and "common law".
A number of marriages in OH depend on it.

Try using the Spanish Civil Code in an OH court, and see how far it gets you.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #288 on: November 28, 2012, 10:32:47 PM »
It's funny how people still use that terrible "blind people touching the same elephant" analogy.

It is incredibly insensitive as I will have you know the visually impaired are not hampered by yesteryear's standards:

Quote
I went on to get a Masters Degree from the University of Michigan, becoming the first legally blind visual artist to get an MFA from that school.

http://pronagger.com/about/

I am sure that is one proud school!
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #289 on: November 28, 2012, 10:33:28 PM »
Well, I don't think that it's a great number of Catholics that go overboard with these things in the first place. It's more that many Catholics don't treat belief in those things as though it is optional even if they don't have a personal devotion to Our Lady of Fatima or Guadalupe or whatever.

I was dismayed that there is more emphasis on things like Divine Mercy or Fatima and a rather total lack of mention on anything from the First Millennium.  It is like it never happened.  And most casual RCs just assume that everything today is the same exact thing as it was from Pentecost.

For me it is not so much whether the faith is in heresy or not, I leave that to the more learned folks.  I'm just dismayed at the state of the faith that even if they do possess the fullness of truth, I cannot see it the way the faith is practiced and lived and taught today.

You seem to have missed a great deal in terms of Catholic spiritual life.  It's funny how the blind monks always think the little bit of the elephant that they are touching is all that there is...
That Choy knew better than to get involved doesn't mean they missed anything.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #290 on: November 28, 2012, 10:39:09 PM »
Oh and Isa, please explain to me how the other few dozen of ethnicities I listed off the top of my head don't exist here either.
Since you are the only one making that claim, you'll have to explain it.

Or are not "native".

Explain to us all how we are English again.
Since you are so worked up about 0.1% (the Vietnamese, even less than the 0.2% Amerinidans) and Hispanics/Latinos/Spanish 3.1%, putting the Blacks at 12.2% in just in passing, ignoring the largest group-the Germans at 26.5%-perhaps not.

You have 7.9% "American," one in the few areas in the country where such are in majority.


Something about speaking American (we have in my city bilingual street and business signs in more than a few neighborhoods, one right next to where I work)

I've been all over OH, and saw English everywhere.
and shooting off fireworks and buying stuff on the Fourth of July?
Why not the Second of September and Día de la Raza?

lol.
LOL indeed.

Oh and "common law".
A number of marriages in OH depend on it.

Try using the Spanish Civil Code in an OH court, and see how far it gets you.

This stuff is priceless keep it coming.

Ever think of quitting your day job and selling used cars?

You have not an inkling on matters of identity, which is OK.

What do you claim to be again?

A Scandinavian-German Arab from Chicago?

But truly you must be (VSFW):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPQE3GfkrOo

EDIT: OOPS, HMS Pinafore - For He is an Englishman

« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 10:51:04 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #291 on: November 28, 2012, 10:45:41 PM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.


Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #292 on: November 28, 2012, 10:49:48 PM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.



Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #293 on: November 28, 2012, 10:58:20 PM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #294 on: November 28, 2012, 11:05:39 PM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D

That is Isa speaking for you.

He believes English is the predominate "ethnicity" in the US.

I think that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #295 on: November 28, 2012, 11:08:45 PM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.
Somehow Orthonorm finds the statement of the fact of the existence of English followers of the Vatican from the earliest roots of America, and the English framework that followed, as a denial of the existence of anyone else.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #296 on: November 28, 2012, 11:09:42 PM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D

That is Isa speaking for you.

He believes English is the predominate "ethnicity" in the US.

I think that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard.
and yet you say it in English.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #297 on: November 28, 2012, 11:13:26 PM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.
Somehow Orthonorm finds the statement of the fact of the existence of English followers of the Vatican from the earliest roots of America, and the English framework that followed, as a denial of the existence of anyone else.

No, I find that the statement that English is the predominant ethnicity in this country to be absolutely absurd. But keep it up.

I have no idea how the Vatican plays into this nor do I care.

I'm English.

My Grandfather would flip. Both to come to think about it.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #298 on: November 28, 2012, 11:17:56 PM »
and yet you say it in English.

Hmm, so are you saying that anyone who speaks English is English?

I speak Spanish sometimes - am I Spanish? No, I am not. I am an American who has learned to speak Spanish.

By the same token, Americans speak English because some of its original settlers were English. However, we actually fought a war to separate from England. So we're no longer English, even though we speak it.  :)
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #299 on: November 28, 2012, 11:19:32 PM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D

That is Isa speaking for you.

He believes English is the predominate "ethnicity" in the US.

I think that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard.
and yet you say it in English.

Are you English?

Would you rather switch to German and laugh at my mistakes?

And I am not using English but American.
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Offline Shiny

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #300 on: November 28, 2012, 11:26:02 PM »
and yet you say it in English.

Hmm, so are you saying that anyone who speaks English is English?
That's the thing I'm trying to wrap my head around, does he mean that if our primary language is English that makes us English?

I don't want to misunderstand him.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #301 on: November 28, 2012, 11:31:00 PM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.
Somehow Orthonorm finds the statement of the fact of the existence of English followers of the Vatican from the earliest roots of America, and the English framework that followed, as a denial of the existence of anyone else.

No, I find that the statement that English is the predominant ethnicity in this country to be absolutely absurd. But keep it up.

I have no idea how the Vatican plays into this nor do I care.

I'm English.

My Grandfather would flip. Both to come to think about it.
Predominant ever since February 10, 1763.

How the Vatican plays in this is how this started.  You walk into the middle of the movie and tell us how it should end.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #302 on: November 28, 2012, 11:31:44 PM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D

That is Isa speaking for you.

He believes English is the predominate "ethnicity" in the US.

I think that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard.
and yet you say it in English.

Are you English?

Would you rather switch to German and laugh at my mistakes?

And I am not using English but American.
I promise I won't laugh.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #303 on: November 29, 2012, 12:07:42 AM »
and yet you say it in English.

Hmm, so are you saying that anyone who speaks English is English?

I speak Spanish sometimes - am I Spanish? No, I am not. I am an American who has learned to speak Spanish.

By the same token, Americans speak English because some of its original settlers were English. However, we actually fought a war to separate from England. So we're no longer English, even though we speak it.  :)
Yes, you fought a war.  And then turned around and adopted reception statutes to make sure the King's Common Law remained the law of the land.

The days of the Anglos are coming to an end, so we are told.  So some day in the proposed future that whole 1607-1776 thing will be just a sidetrack, an interlude.   Doesn't bother me a bit if I live to see it. Hablo Español.  But until that happens, I'll give the Anglo-Saxon devils their due.

Again, this tangent began with the denying in particular the existence of the Vatican's English flock here, and went on to denying in general the predominance of the English.  Assimilation in the US, at least until now, melts into that pot.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Nephi

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #304 on: November 29, 2012, 12:48:51 AM »
What I don't like about it:

5. Our Lady of Fatima

Could someone explain this objection? I don't know a ton about Fatima. Is there a common Orthodox objection to Fatima?

I think one of the objections (other than the one about it being a private revelation) is that the Virgin was quoted as saying that the children should instruct the Pope to pray specifically for "the conversion of Russia". Most Catholics today believe that meant to pray for its conversion from Communism. However, it has unfortunately been interpreted by some to also mean "conversion from Orthodoxy to Catholicism". I don't think that's what was intended but the horse is already out of the barn.

I'm mixed on that particular objection. Most mainstream RC's do take it the way you describe as regarding Communism. Traditionalists/Sedevacantists are more likely to interpret it regarding conversion to Roman Catholicism, regardless whether it be from atheism or Orthodoxy. The former I don't find a problem, but the latter is a huge problem and pretty common amongst the spreaders of the Fatima message. For example:

Quote
The Consecration of Russia will reverse the upheaval and revolt against God begun by the Orthodox schism of 1054, furthered by Luther’s heresy of sola scriptura, added to by the apostasy of Freemasonry and intensified by Communism.
From: http://www.fatima.org/essentials/message/reqconsec.asp


However, my objections are more varied than just the consecration of Russia, and I'll show a couple examples. For one it affirms purgatory:

Quote
Lucia asked some more questions of the Lady. Two girls who used to come to her house to learn sewing from her sisters had recently died. Lucia wanted to find out about them, too.
“And Maria do Rosario, daughter of José das Neves, is she in Heaven?”
“Yes,” the Lady replied.
“And Amelia?”
“She is still in Purgatory.”
From: http://www.fatima.org/crusader/truestory/pdf/tspg13.pdf

And the relationship it depicts between Jesus, Mary, and humanity (Mary holding off the punishment of humanity by God):

Quote
He is going to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, hunger, persecution of the Church and of the Holy Father.
“To forestall this, I shall come to ask for the Consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays."
From: http://www.fatima.org/crusader/truestory/pdf/tspg26.pdf
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 12:50:02 AM by Nephi »

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #305 on: November 29, 2012, 08:17:48 AM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.
Somehow Orthonorm finds the statement of the fact of the existence of English followers of the Vatican from the earliest roots of America, and the English framework that followed, as a denial of the existence of anyone else.

No, I find that the statement that English is the predominant ethnicity in this country to be absolutely absurd. But keep it up.

I have no idea how the Vatican plays into this nor do I care.

I'm English.

My Grandfather would flip. Both to come to think about it.
How you can not is actually absurd.

I understand now what he means by "dominant" ethnicity, it's undeniable the effect of British culture and language have had on this nation and culture from it's beginnings until this present day, our language, heritage, cultures, laws, values and norms. All heavily influenced by the former British Empire or ethnic "English" if you will. They were and still are dominating in many ways, I believe they still are the largest foreign investors or have large holdings in the country with the Dutch not far behind, you are dealing with "Old World" money and influence that hasn't really never gone away.

So the Brits still are the most dominant ethnic group in effect, yes the Germans are numerically the largest physical ethnic group on American soil but it's the English who still hold sway over the culture in many ways. Why do you think we supported England in two world wars over Germany ? You don't have to have pure numbers to "dominate" over a culture, history has proved that time and again, one need only to look over in the ME to see modern examples of that. Even here in America just see how powerful and dominating the Jewish vote and how we overwhelmingly supprot Israel on every issue yet they're a tiny minority in the country.

And the term WASP, White Anglo-Saxon Protestants that ran and controlled things came out for a reason, and they still run things in many ways not much has changed. But one thing is for sure, to deny that they are or aren't dominant is ridiculous.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #306 on: November 29, 2012, 08:25:56 AM »
Why are we bringing other people's ethnicities or background into this? Isa can be a Scandinavian Arab German Egyptian. What a weird reply.

Go back and read the thread.

He gets to be a the melting pot but the rest of us are English.

Speak for yourself, I'm a proud French German Sac/Fox American, baby!  ;D

That is Isa speaking for you.

He believes English is the predominate "ethnicity" in the US.

I think that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard.
and yet you say it in English.

Are you English?

Would you rather switch to German and laugh at my mistakes?

And I am not using English but American.
Yea well go to London and then go  to Moscow and just speaking "American" and let us know how you got around in both places.

All "American" is, is a form of gutter proper English.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #307 on: November 29, 2012, 08:33:15 AM »
and yet you say it in English.

Hmm, so are you saying that anyone who speaks English is English?

I speak Spanish sometimes - am I Spanish? No, I am not. I am an American who has learned to speak Spanish.

By the same token, Americans speak English because some of its original settlers were English. However, we actually fought a war to separate from England. So we're no longer English, even though we speak it.  :)
We're a lot more English than anything else, my French Catholic ancestors fought a war against those limey prots and lost. Our language, culture and religion was pushed aside to placate those snobby heretics from across the pond. We were for a long time for all practicial purposes "English".

The U.S. and most of Canada are heavily British and Protestant influenced.
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #308 on: November 29, 2012, 11:45:10 AM »
The English are so...uhm, what's the word...ah, "angelic".
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #309 on: November 29, 2012, 12:00:40 PM »
The English are so...uhm, what's the word...ah, "angelic".
"the sun never sets on the British empire, because doesn't trust the Brits in the dark"
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline sheenj

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #310 on: November 29, 2012, 12:06:12 PM »

All "American" is, is a form of gutter proper English.

Oh really?

Offline izrima

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #311 on: November 29, 2012, 12:32:51 PM »
What I don't like about it:

5. Our Lady of Fatima

Could someone explain this objection? I don't know a ton about Fatima. Is there a common Orthodox objection to Fatima?

I think one of the objections (other than the one about it being a private revelation) is that the Virgin was quoted as saying that the children should instruct the Pope to pray specifically for "the conversion of Russia". Most Catholics today believe that meant to pray for its conversion from Communism. However, it has unfortunately been interpreted by some to also mean "conversion from Orthodoxy to Catholicism". I don't think that's what was intended but the horse is already out of the barn.

I'm mixed on that particular objection. Most mainstream RC's do take it the way you describe as regarding Communism. Traditionalists/Sedevacantists are more likely to interpret it regarding conversion to Roman Catholicism, regardless whether it be from atheism or Orthodoxy. The former I don't find a problem, but the latter is a huge problem and pretty common amongst the spreaders of the Fatima message. For example:

Quote
The Consecration of Russia will reverse the upheaval and revolt against God begun by the Orthodox schism of 1054, furthered by Luther’s heresy of sola scriptura, added to by the apostasy of Freemasonry and intensified by Communism.
From: http://www.fatima.org/essentials/message/reqconsec.asp


However, my objections are more varied than just the consecration of Russia, and I'll show a couple examples. For one it affirms purgatory:

Quote
Lucia asked some more questions of the Lady. Two girls who used to come to her house to learn sewing from her sisters had recently died. Lucia wanted to find out about them, too.
“And Maria do Rosario, daughter of José das Neves, is she in Heaven?”
“Yes,” the Lady replied.
“And Amelia?”
“She is still in Purgatory.”
From: http://www.fatima.org/crusader/truestory/pdf/tspg13.pdf

And the relationship it depicts between Jesus, Mary, and humanity (Mary holding off the punishment of humanity by God):

Quote
He is going to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, hunger, persecution of the Church and of the Holy Father.
“To forestall this, I shall come to ask for the Consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays."
From: http://www.fatima.org/crusader/truestory/pdf/tspg26.pdf

Thank you, Nephi! This is interesting material.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #312 on: November 29, 2012, 01:04:25 PM »
The English are so...uhm, what's the word...ah, "angelic".
"the sun never sets on the British empire, because doesn't trust the Brits in the dark"
There's an old patriotic British song with the lyrics;

" Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the Free,
            How shall we extol thee, who are born of thee?
            Wider still and wider shall thy bounds be set;            God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet,
            God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet."

Seems the UK actually believed that expansionism and colonialism was some kind of divine ordained "manifest destiny" of some sort. This race actually bragged about subjecting a quarter of the world's surface at one time as some sort of agenda of pursuing God's "will".
g
These are the same people who accused the Vatican and Papists of attempting "world domination" and attacked Germany in two world wars on the grounds of political and economic "aggression" over a slice of land in Poland yet they had almost a billion people under their thumb.

Can you say "chutzpah"?
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #313 on: November 29, 2012, 01:08:43 PM »
Can you say "chutzpah"?
Uh, yeah:

"Here again we have proof of the existence of Israel and the Throne of David today, for how can Jesus reign from a Throne and over a people if they no longer exist? Having seen then that the Israel people must still be in existence as a people and nation today, separate and distinct from Jewry, let us now note a few of the many prophetic descriptions of what they were to do and become during their long period of exile. These state very plainly that Israel would:

Be a NATION (Jer. 31:35-37)
Be a GREAT nation (Gen. 12:2)
Have the word GREAT as part of her name (Gen. 12:2)
Be a people regathered in a NEW home (Amos 9:9; 2 Sam. 7:10)
Become a NATION and COMPANY OF NATIONS (Gen. 35:11)
Be a KINGDOM (2 Sam. 7:12-16)
Have as emblems a LION and an UNICORN (Num. 24:8-9)


            These and many similar descriptions point unmistakably to Britain and the Celto-Saxon peoples. Others may answer to one or two of these descriptions but only Britain and the Celto-Saxon peoples answer to them all. A few nations can be called great and a few are kingdoms, but only Britain has “Great” as part of her name. Only in the settlement of Britain by many related tribes have we the regathering of a people in a new home, and only they have become “a nation and a company of nations.” Further, Britain does have the lion and the unicorn as its national emblem.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Why is RCC so attractive?
« Reply #314 on: November 29, 2012, 02:24:43 PM »
Awesome theistgal is back!

Nice to see you again, how are you?

Doing great, being a "Happy Homemaker" and baking lots of cookies during the holiday (some of them actually edible!).  8)

I once nearly killed my maths teacher with my homemade cookies and they weren't even poisoned.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 02:36:44 PM by Cyrillic »
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