OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 24, 2014, 12:50:49 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Eastern VS Western Iconography?  (Read 809 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JamesR
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 4,779


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« on: November 23, 2012, 10:00:29 PM »

I oftentimes hear people discussing Iconography and teasing the west for their 'sloppy/heretical iconography' and I was just curious as to what the differences are really between eastern and western Iconography? What elements are proper Icons supposed to have? What elements do both the western and eastern type of Icons have? I know that Iconography is definitely a very serious practice--more complex than just painting pictures willy-nilly. Back when I was a catechumen, and we were looking for an Icon of my patron St. Augustine--who's more of a western Saint--I asked my Priest why we couldn't just get a Roman Catholic western Icon or painting of him, and he laughed and told me that Iconography is Sacramental and must follow very important guidelines. So what exactly are these guidelines and how exactly are Icons supposed to be painted? When judging an Icon, what factors am I supposed to judge them by? What am I looking for? Why is western Iconography so 'heretical' or 'sloppy' as many people describe them?
Logged

Quote
Wherever goes JamesR goes, he is there.
-Orthonorm
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: <Insert your favourite patriotic attribute here> Orthodox
Posts: 5,975



« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2012, 12:20:48 AM »

Back when I was a catechumen, and we were looking for an Icon of my patron St. Augustine

Did you found any? I'd like to have one too.
Logged

Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,216

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2012, 12:35:02 AM »

http://www.andrewespress.com/icon_augustine.html

This one is from the hand of Mary Coit Sullivan, an iconographer from St. Mark's Orthodox Church in Denver, Co.
Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,122


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2012, 02:07:58 AM »

I oftentimes hear people discussing Iconography and teasing the west for their 'sloppy/heretical iconography' and I was just curious as to what the differences are really between eastern and western Iconography? What elements are proper Icons supposed to have? What elements do both the western and eastern type of Icons have? I know that Iconography is definitely a very serious practice--more complex than just painting pictures willy-nilly. Back when I was a catechumen, and we were looking for an Icon of my patron St. Augustine--who's more of a western Saint--I asked my Priest why we couldn't just get a Roman Catholic western Icon or painting of him, and he laughed and told me that Iconography is Sacramental and must follow very important guidelines. So what exactly are these guidelines and how exactly are Icons supposed to be painted? When judging an Icon, what factors am I supposed to judge them by? What am I looking for? Why is western Iconography so 'heretical' or 'sloppy' as many people describe them?

Firstly, some clarification is necessary before I can give a proper answer:

By "western iconography", what do you mean by this? Icons of Orthodox saints of the pre-schism west? Images painted in an abstracted, non-realistic style associated with iconography painted by non-Orthodox artists? Naturalistic paintings depicting saints and feasts, which emerged in the Orthodox world in around the 17th century, and became predominant in orthodox churches and homes over the next three centuries?


Logged
Cyrillic
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow
Posts: 7,973


The Reactionary Rebel


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2012, 05:50:12 AM »

I like pre-renaissance western icons. They resemble eastern icons more but yet retain that typical western flavour:

Logged

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo

"Se vogliamo che tutto rimanga come è, bisogna che tutto cambi."
-G.T di Lampedusa

'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: <Insert your favourite patriotic attribute here> Orthodox
Posts: 5,975



« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2012, 06:34:47 AM »

I like pre-renaissance western icons. They resemble eastern icons more but yet retain that typical western flavour

+1. Too bad that RCs lost an idea of canonical art at some point and adopted naturalistic paintings instead.

IIRC some AWRV parish's website said that Romanesque iconography is normative for their WRO. I don't what that means in practice though.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 06:37:27 AM by Alpo » Logged

LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,122


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2012, 07:53:37 AM »

I like pre-renaissance western icons. They resemble eastern icons more but yet retain that typical western flavour:



That is a beautifully-executed painting, but it would not qualify as an Orthodox icon. It is almost photo-realistic, three-dimensional, with elements casting shadows, and using linear perspective, which roots it firmly in the earthly, temporal world.

Icons, with their flatness of composition, their elongation of bodily proportions, their inversion of linear perspective, their non-naturalistic abstracted portrayal, and absence of casting shadows, attempt to express what is not of this world - the timeless, the spiritually perfected, the heavenly.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 07:53:57 AM by LBK » Logged
Cyrillic
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow
Posts: 7,973


The Reactionary Rebel


WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2012, 08:04:54 AM »

But you take the Byzantine tradition and use it to measure everything else, it just doesn't work like that. Ancient Coptic and Syriac icons probably violate every byzantine canon in the book as well but that doesn't make them any less of an icon (in fact, compared to Coptic icons the Byzantine ones are 'photorealistic' and 'rooted in the temporal world'). Coptic or Latin* icons are just rooted in a different, but equally ancient and venerable traditions.









*Baroque paintings are not icons

PS: anyone notices how my post count says "leet"?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 08:06:24 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo

"Se vogliamo che tutto rimanga come è, bisogna che tutto cambi."
-G.T di Lampedusa

'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,122


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2012, 08:18:17 AM »

But you take the Byzantine tradition and use it to measure everything else, it just doesn't work like that. Ancient Coptic and Syriac icons probably violate every byzantine canon in the book as well but that doesn't make them any less of an icon (in fact, compared to Coptic icons the Byzantine ones are 'photorealistic' and 'rooted in the temporal world'). Coptic or Latin* icons are just rooted in a different, but equally ancient and venerable traditions.


None of the established historic iconographic traditions are photorealistic. Coptic icons are indeed very different in appearance to Greek or Russian icons, but they are, in their own way, stylized and abstracted, and make little attempt to replicate earthly realism. The painting of St Thomas Aquinas makes little, if any, attempt to portray what is not of this world.
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: <Insert your favourite patriotic attribute here> Orthodox
Posts: 5,975



« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2012, 10:41:10 AM »

But you take the Byzantine tradition and use it to measure everything else, it just doesn't work like that. Ancient Coptic and Syriac icons probably violate every byzantine canon in the book as well but that doesn't make them any less of an icon (in fact, compared to Coptic icons the Byzantine ones are 'photorealistic' and 'rooted in the temporal world'). Coptic or Latin* icons are just rooted in a different, but equally ancient and venerable traditions.


None of the established historic iconographic traditions are photorealistic. Coptic icons are indeed very different in appearance to Greek or Russian icons, but they are, in their own way, stylized and abstracted, and make little attempt to replicate earthly realism. The painting of St Thomas Aquinas makes little, if any, attempt to portray what is not of this world.


Would object venerating non-Byzantine/non-Slavic traditional iconography in principle?
Logged

Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,216

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2012, 01:32:26 PM »

But you take the Byzantine tradition and use it to measure everything else, it just doesn't work like that. Ancient Coptic and Syriac icons probably violate every byzantine canon in the book as well but that doesn't make them any less of an icon (in fact, compared to Coptic icons the Byzantine ones are 'photorealistic' and 'rooted in the temporal world'). Coptic or Latin* icons are just rooted in a different, but equally ancient and venerable traditions.


None of the established historic iconographic traditions are photorealistic. Coptic icons are indeed very different in appearance to Greek or Russian icons, but they are, in their own way, stylized and abstracted, and make little attempt to replicate earthly realism. The painting of St Thomas Aquinas makes little, if any, attempt to portray what is not of this world.


Is there evidence that these aspects are inherent in the theology of images, or were these particulars articulated after the council? It's been a while since I've read up on the council, but I seem to remember the focus being mostly on the veneration of images and that the definition of an image was fairly broad.

I don't doubt that there were similar stylistic characteristics, but can you point to some writings that indicate a holy image had to have certain properties in order to be worthy of veneration?
Logged
Dominika
Serbian/Polish
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Poland
Posts: 884


St. Luke, pray for us!


« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2012, 02:41:52 PM »

That's Western iconohraphy I appreciate: Duccio









It has Western flavour, but the spirituality of these paintings is more Byzantine than later Western iconography.
Logged

Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 05:55:29 PM »

Back when I was a catechumen, and we were looking for an Icon of my patron St. Augustine

Did you found any? I'd like to have one too.

There are a couple from the Convent of St. Elizabeth: one in Latin from their website, and one in Dutch from their Twitter. The Twitter one hasn't been posted to their website yet, but you can still order it.
Logged
Cyrillic
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow
Posts: 7,973


The Reactionary Rebel


WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2012, 06:06:28 PM »

Back when I was a catechumen, and we were looking for an Icon of my patron St. Augustine

Did you found any? I'd like to have one too.

There are a couple from the Convent of St. Elizabeth: one in Latin from their website, and one in Dutch from their Twitter. The Twitter one hasn't been posted to their website yet, but you can still order it.

Ah, the two most beautiful languages in the world.
Logged

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo

"Se vogliamo che tutto rimanga come è, bisogna che tutto cambi."
-G.T di Lampedusa

'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: <Insert your favourite patriotic attribute here> Orthodox
Posts: 5,975



« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 06:07:45 PM »

Back when I was a catechumen, and we were looking for an Icon of my patron St. Augustine

Did you found any? I'd like to have one too.

There are a couple from the Convent of St. Elizabeth: one in Latin from their website, and one in Dutch from their Twitter. The Twitter one hasn't been posted to their website yet, but you can still order it.

Nice. Thank you. I've never ordered anything from US so I have no idea how much it would cost (tolls etc.) to send one to Finland but I will definitely look into this.
Logged

Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.074 seconds with 42 queries.