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simplygermain
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« on: November 23, 2012, 08:48:48 PM »

http://www.mospat.ru/en/2012/11/21/news76208/

 On 20 November 2012, Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk, chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate’s Department for External Church Relations, arrived in Paris with the blessing of His Holiness Patriarch Kirill and All Russia and was met by Metropolitan Emmanuel of France (Patriarchate of Constantinople) at Charles de Gaulle airport.

They proceeded to the premises of the Patriarchate of Constantinople’s Metropolia in France, where the Coordinating Committee of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches holds its meeting. Metropolitan Hilarion takes part in it as representative of the Moscow Patriarchate.

Too long quote shortened - MK
:...............

My question is this: Does the Orthodox Church view the RC as mainly orthodox but with some heretical tendencies (filioque, mediatrix, and papal infallibility being a grey area???)? Or is it just blatant disregard for the canons?
In light of certain church canons, isn't this forbidden? Or does it take an actual concelebrated divine liturgy to break the canons?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 12:44:48 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2012, 12:45:26 AM »

What is forbidden? Celebrating accordingly to the New Calendar? Concelebration between Constantinople and Moscow?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 12:45:44 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2012, 01:01:04 AM »

Quote
members of the Coordinating Committee prayed at the Divine Liturgy
This is too vague to say that any "canon-breaking" took place.
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simplygermain
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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2012, 03:10:52 AM »

Prayer with Roman Catholics at a "divine liturgy" (VS. mass) would, I guess, imply that it was lead by Orthodox hierarchs and as long as this is the case and communion was not served to RC's would not be a big deal. However, I am asking if common prayer in general with RC's is considered against the canons or if the canons specifically refer to any divine liturgy or concelebration.

Also, maybe someone more learned than I can show us the exact canons? It's been a while since I've read those specific ones.

In addition, is the RCC considered heretical, schismatic, apostate, or something more murky than this? I ask because of the direct and increasing relations between Orthodoxy and the RCC.

Please do not read into this post either. I am not looking for argument but attempting to learn more about my faith.

-SG+
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 03:12:03 AM by simplygermain » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2012, 07:42:57 AM »

i prayed with a catholic yesterday.
 Smiley

it's not the same as taking Holy Communion together, or pretending that we agree on everything (we did not), but helping each other on the spiritual journey.
it's not the same as praying with someone from a different religion or a 'heretic' (Jehovah's witness, morman etc.)
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Peter J
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2012, 01:37:02 PM »

I have heard it explained (I forget which thread this was on) that it doesn't count as praying with heretics if the heretics come to your liturgy (as oppose to going to a heretic's liturgy).
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« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2012, 05:25:59 PM »

but what about praying on line?

let's try...
may God bless yr week, peter j.
 Smiley


by the way, i thought u weren't allowed to call yourself a 'melkite' coz it's rude or something...
(can't remember why, but lots of terms for catholics are rude. i just say 'catholic' to avoid getting into too much trouble!)
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« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2012, 06:51:03 PM »

Prayer with Roman Catholics at a "divine liturgy" (VS. mass) would, I guess, imply that it was lead by Orthodox hierarchs and as long as this is the case and communion was not served to RC's would not be a big deal. However, I am asking if common prayer in general with RC's is considered against the canons or if the canons specifically refer to any divine liturgy or concelebration.

What if it was led by Eastern Catholic bishops/priests?  And if it is indeed lead by the Orthodox hierarchy, how does the presence of RC bishops there be any different than RC inquirers or just those generally curious coming to an Orthodox parish for Divine Liturgy and pray with the Orthodox?
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« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2012, 06:53:27 PM »

Quote
What if it was led by Eastern Catholic bishops/priests? 

Eastern Catholics are not part of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2012, 06:57:34 PM »

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What if it was led by Eastern Catholic bishops/priests? 

Eastern Catholics are not part of the Orthodox Church.

I never said they were.  The point I was responding to was saying that it was a Divine Liturgy so "surely" it was served by the Orthodox Hierarchy.  So I said what if it was Eastern Catholic bishops/priests who did the Liturgy?
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« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2012, 06:59:10 PM »

Prayer with Roman Catholics at a "divine liturgy" (VS. mass) would, I guess, imply that it was lead by Orthodox hierarchs and as long as this is the case and communion was not served to RC's would not be a big deal. However, I am asking if common prayer in general with RC's is considered against the canons or if the canons specifically refer to any divine liturgy or concelebration.

What if it was led by Eastern Catholic bishops/priests?  And if it is indeed lead by the Orthodox hierarchy, how does the presence of RC bishops there be any different than RC inquirers or just those generally curious coming to an Orthodox parish for Divine Liturgy and pray with the Orthodox?

Are RC bishops inquirers into Orthodoxy now, too? That's a neat development! Wink
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« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2012, 07:02:40 PM »

Quote
What if it was led by Eastern Catholic bishops/priests? 

Eastern Catholics are not part of the Orthodox Church.

I never said they were.  The point I was responding to was saying that it was a Divine Liturgy so "surely" it was served by the Orthodox Hierarchy.  So I said what if it was Eastern Catholic bishops/priests who did the Liturgy?

It would not be an Orthodox liturgy if the celebrants were not Orthodox clergy. Simple.
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« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2012, 07:17:48 PM »

Are RC bishops inquirers into Orthodoxy now, too? That's a neat development! Wink

That's not what choy was implying or saying.
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« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2012, 11:49:17 PM »

Are RC bishops inquirers into Orthodoxy now, too? That's a neat development! Wink

That's not what choy was implying or saying.

That's an answer to his question.
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« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2012, 11:55:29 PM »

That's an answer to his question.

I guess I can see how it could be an answer.
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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2012, 12:08:24 AM »

That's an answer to his question.

I guess I can see how it could be an answer.

"How does the presence of RC bishops there be any different than RC inquirers or just those generally curious coming to an Orthodox parish for Divine Liturgy and pray with the Orthodox?" - they are not inquirers and the DL is not a theatrical performance.
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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2012, 12:16:14 AM »

"How does the presence of RC bishops there be any different than RC inquirers or just those generally curious coming to an Orthodox parish for Divine Liturgy and pray with the Orthodox?" - they are not inquirers and the DL is not a theatrical performance.

Understood, that probably is what he meant.
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2012, 12:32:50 AM »

It would not be an Orthodox liturgy if the celebrants were not Orthodox clergy. Simple.

Again, I never said this.  I guess you're guessing I actually read the link, I did not.  I just commented on what is posted on the OP.  So I didn't know that it was plainly stated in the article that the Liturgy happened inside an Orthodox church (which I just checked just now).
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2012, 12:02:39 PM »

but what about praying on line?

let's try...
may God bless yr week, peter j.
 Smiley

Aah! Prayer with heretics!

by the way, i thought u weren't allowed to call yourself a 'melkite' coz it's rude or something...
(can't remember why, but lots of terms for catholics are rude. i just say 'catholic' to avoid getting into too much trouble!)

That's a new one on me.  laugh

There are some (many?) who speak of "the Melkite Rite", which is if not offensive at least inaccurate: There is no "Melkite Rite", there's the Melkite Church which uses the Byzantine Rite.
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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2012, 01:27:40 PM »

but what about praying on line?

let's try...
may God bless yr week, peter j.
 Smiley

That is praying for, not with.  Orthodox certainly can pray for heretics, just not with them.  To pray with heretics means to join heretics for prayer with heretics leading the prayers.  Personal prayers, as opposed to formal or written prayers, are to be done individually and in private.  Public prayer, involving two or more people, should be according to form.  If two people of different faiths come together to pray, whose prayer books will be used?  Catholic forms of prayer inevitably contain the distorted Creed with the filioque, just to name one heresy.  How can an Orthodox person participate in prayers that contain heretical content?  How can an Orthodox say "Amen" to heresy?  This is why such circumstances must be avoided.
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Peter J
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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2012, 01:41:04 PM »

Orthodox certainly can pray for heretics, just not with them. 

I'm guessing to would also be problematic.
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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2012, 04:30:16 PM »

peter j,
please pray for me too!
(if i'm not too much of a heretic...)

edit:
i checked out the rules
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules
and it's ok to call u a melkite, just 'uniate' isn't allowed.
it's all greek/latin/arabic to me, i get easily confused...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 04:36:19 PM by mabsoota » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2012, 04:34:16 PM »

The main problem with praying with Catholics is that they will comsume your life force and give it to the pope to maintain his powers.
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2012, 04:54:31 PM »

The main problem with praying with Catholics is that they will comsume your life force and give it to the pope to maintain his powers.

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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2012, 04:56:23 PM »

The main problem with praying with Catholics is that they will comsume your life force and give it to the pope to maintain his powers.

Tell me about it...

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Peter J
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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2012, 06:20:44 PM »

Orthodox certainly can pray for heretics, just not with them. 

I'm guessing to would also be problematic.

peter j,
please pray for me too!

Oh, now you're in trouble.
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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2012, 09:00:59 PM »

The main problem with praying with Catholics is that they will comsume your life force and give it to the pope to maintain his powers.

Tell me about it...


Ha! I love it! I also love the fact that the latin course I'm taking is paying off.  Cheesy
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« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2012, 09:18:27 PM »

I'm glad I could help in your educational endeavors. Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2012, 03:02:53 AM »

ok as your friendly moderator please be careful in using the word heretic and so forth as even though it seems funny it could lead to people violating forum rules. -username! moderator
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