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Poll
Question: Which would be better for someone who is not/would not be/doesn't have a chance to be... Orthodox to be?
Protestant, at least they are some kind of Christian - 20 (74.1%)
Doesn't matter unless it is Orthodox, they are outside of the church and all other faith is fruitless - 7 (25.9%)
Total Voters: 27

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Author Topic: If a one is non-Orthodox, which is better?  (Read 1542 times) Average Rating: 0
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Anastasia1
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« on: November 22, 2012, 01:12:27 AM »

This came up in discussion today. I support people being at least some kind of Christian. My friend is more conservative I think and views other Christian faith as not particularly valuable because it is not the truth as we have in Orthodoxy.  What is a proper Orthodox way of viewing this? Which do you agree with? Why?
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2012, 01:28:11 AM »

I do not want to judge other people.  I've seen people who are Protestants who have a lot of zeal in their faith and act more Christian than Catholics I know (I don't know many Orthodox as I am not one yet).  I know some people who aren't that much into the faith.  To me its much better for them to be Protestant and take it seriously, than be Orthodox or Catholic and be detached.  With today's secularism and the common perception of Christianity, it is hard for people to grasp Orthodoxy.  To me being Evangelical or something similar is sort of like an "introduction" to Christianity, especially for those who are very casual in their faith.  If they practice this faith well, eventually they will be ready for more, and I will just pray for them that someday they will be ready for Orthodoxy.

BTW, despite being currently Catholic, over the past few months I've recommended more people to try Orthodoxy than any other faith, including my own.  I'm not sure how many actually converted.
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2012, 01:30:53 AM »

I think that more important than being a Christian is why you are a Christian. I believe that, generally, people are Christians for good reasons, but it may happen that sometimes they are not -- maybe they became Christian because they were forced to, or they made a superficial decision, or they use it as a platform for their pride, etc. In such cases it's probably hard to say if it is better to be a Christian, or it would be more important to just be an upright, virtuous, loving person. Christianity is about who you are as a person, not about following a strict pattern, or calling yourself a Christian (these are important, but are consequences, not causes).

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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2012, 02:09:03 AM »

I definitely think it is better to be some type of Christian. Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2012, 02:31:20 AM »

I definitely think it is better to be some type of Christian. Smiley
Why?
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2012, 02:59:37 AM »

I think that being non-Christian opposed to Protestant or some other type of Christian is better. The reason being that another type of Christian (especially a Protestant) will have specific problems and biases against Orthodoxy since the American Christian media has been indoctrinating them for so long with anti-Catholic/Orthodox propoganda. It will be more difficult to deal with their issues. Someone who is a fully none Christian may be an easier student to Orthodoxy because he will be more neautral, fair minded and less biased against Orthodoxy. In my experience, the irreligious are more willing to give Orthodoxy an honest fair swing than the Protestants are.
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2012, 03:24:54 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This is a radical question..

Heresies like Protestantism are very dangerous the spiritual health and growth of people, so we need to be worried about our fellow brothers and sisters in Protestant churches because such beliefs are discouraging rather than encouraging the true healing of Salvation.  It is sort like seeing your neighbors with terrible wounds on their bodies, but letting them hang out at Rite-Aid picking up bandaids and Tylenol rather than seeking the ER or Urgent Care for proper and restorative treatment.  However, in real life, you can't force a person to the hospital, you have to help them get there.  So with the Church, we know that heresies can't save or even really in a substantive spiritual way help anyone, however we also know that you can't force a person to seek good spiritual health. 

Further this question requires us to dig deep into our own Orthodox Christian ontology..

We have rules but we all know that its not intended that we legalistically follow all the rules at any given time, rather we are moved by the Holy Spirit ever towards the goal of healing from sin.  The Church is the healing, heresies are the damage.  However, we have to treat heresies like all sin, loving the sinner while condemning the sin.  So we can rightfully reject Protestant heresies as indeed spiritual reckless, self-defeating, and very dangerous, while at the same time in our day to day interactions with such folks be all the more compassion, loving, and inclusive.  Jesus told us to have those who reject the admonishment of the Church to be like heathen and tax-collectors, while at the same time also told us to love our enemies and pray for those who use us spitefully.  In that regard, we must love and pray for heretics all the more because of their heresies.  This means being polite, being inviting, being forgiving, being genuinely nice, so that folks feel invited to be healed in the Church.  The Shepherd left the 99 on the mountain to search carefully for the one that got away, we need to follow His example for those outside the Church.  They will never come into the Church if they don't genuinely feel invited, and this means no pressure and no judgement.  Judgement is for those inside, those outside should be warmly welcomed in all instances.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2012, 04:15:31 AM »

I would say a non-Chalcedonian is the closest thing. So that I suppose.
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 04:38:00 AM »

What about Protestant missionaries to non-Orthodox communities?

I don't know you guys know the book Through Gates of Splendor, with the followup story End of the Spear. These evangelical missionaries go to this unreached, isolated, vicious tribe in Ecuador. They die, but then others including at least one son from the group continue the missionary work and the tribe becomes Christian.  Was their conversion worthwhile or not? Was the effort to reach them by non-Orthodox Christians a waste of effort, aside from probably a little less murder around their tribe?

And why?
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2012, 01:33:22 PM »

We know where God is we do not know where the God is not.
Salvation in any Christian denomination is better then none.
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 02:11:21 PM »

We know where God is we do not know where the God is not.
Salvation in any Christian denomination is better then none.
Can't God save a non-Christian?

Is it not the case that we do not know the salvation status of a non-Orthodox Christian?

And if this is the case, how does that not invalidate what you just said?
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2012, 02:18:09 PM »

God can save whomever He chooses, but it is a question of to what degree the person is cooperating with Him in that process. Someone who is trying to follow Christ in whatever non-Orthodox church they are in is certainly doing a better job at that then someone who is in a completely different religion with no concept of Christ or what have you. It's sort of like if you're thirsting in the desert, it would be best to have a lot of water; if you can't have a lot of water, it would still be better to have a little water than none at all; but if you have no water, God may still save you, by some miracle.
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 03:50:21 PM »

God will save whoever he  chooses regardless of religion. But I think following Christ is better than not.
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2012, 03:51:24 PM »

What about Protestant missionaries to non-Orthodox communities?

I don't know you guys know the book Through Gates of Splendor, with the followup story End of the Spear. These evangelical missionaries go to this unreached, isolated, vicious tribe in Ecuador. They die, but then others including at least one son from the group continue the missionary work and the tribe becomes Christian.  Was their conversion worthwhile or not? Was the effort to reach them by non-Orthodox Christians a waste of effort, aside from probably a little less murder around their tribe?

And why?

So? Islam converted almost the entire Middle East at a rapid pace but I don't see anything unique about it.
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2012, 04:07:41 PM »

I don't see how that answers Anastasia's question, James.

A slightly different scenario, but related to the question of Protestant missionary work among non-Protestants: I actually went on two missionary trips to Mexico as a young Presbyterian, around the ages of 11 and 12. Even though I was not what you could call the most devout (I never passed out the Bibles they sent us with; most of the kids in my classes at school were Hispanic Catholics, so I knew they had their own religion and I thought it would be rude to presume that we knew better than they did what they should believe), they wanted me on the team because I was the only fluent/heritage Spanish-speaker in the group.

While I can't say we converted anyone (thank GOD), it was good to show love to fellow human beings (we built a few houses, set up a medical clinic, volunteered and lived at the local orphanage, etc.), and ultimately those trips had more to do with my eventual decision to join the Roman Catholic Church about a dozen years later than probably anything else (though my dad's side of the family was/is solidly Mexican and Irish Catholic, so there was also some familial ties that made it easier). And, in a roundabout way, that move is ultimately responsible for me eventually finding and converting to Orthodoxy.

So I would say, based on my own experience, that Protestant missionary work can be good in more ways than the missionary can realize. I know I'm not the only one here with this kind of story, as there have been several missionaries who have gone into traditionally Orthodox societies and come back converted themselves.  Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2012, 06:06:32 PM »

I definitely think it is better to be some type of Christian. Smiley
Why?
Hmm...well, it seems to me if someone has their trust in Christ and are doing the best they can with what they've been taught and He is a merciful Savoir certainly they will be better off? I can't see how a person would be better off to not believe at all. Huh  If all someone was exposed to was bad theology will they be to blame? I just don't see how it would be so.



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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2012, 08:45:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This is a radical question..

Heresies like Protestantism are very dangerous the spiritual health and growth of people, so we need to be worried about our fellow brothers and sisters in Protestant churches because such beliefs are discouraging rather than encouraging the true healing of Salvation.  It is sort like seeing your neighbors with terrible wounds on their bodies, but letting them hang out at Rite-Aid picking up bandaids and Tylenol rather than seeking the ER or Urgent Care for proper and restorative treatment.  However, in real life, you can't force a person to the hospital, you have to help them get there.  So with the Church, we know that heresies can't save or even really in a substantive spiritual way help anyone, however we also know that you can't force a person to seek good spiritual health. 

Further this question requires us to dig deep into our own Orthodox Christian ontology..

We have rules but we all know that its not intended that we legalistically follow all the rules at any given time, rather we are moved by the Holy Spirit ever towards the goal of healing from sin.  The Church is the healing, heresies are the damage.  However, we have to treat heresies like all sin, loving the sinner while condemning the sin.  So we can rightfully reject Protestant heresies as indeed spiritual reckless, self-defeating, and very dangerous, while at the same time in our day to day interactions with such folks be all the more compassion, loving, and inclusive.  Jesus told us to have those who reject the admonishment of the Church to be like heathen and tax-collectors, while at the same time also told us to love our enemies and pray for those who use us spitefully.  In that regard, we must love and pray for heretics all the more because of their heresies.  This means being polite, being inviting, being forgiving, being genuinely nice, so that folks feel invited to be healed in the Church.  The Shepherd left the 99 on the mountain to search carefully for the one that got away, we need to follow His example for those outside the Church.  They will never come into the Church if they don't genuinely feel invited, and this means no pressure and no judgement.  Judgement is for those inside, those outside should be warmly welcomed in all instances.

stay blessed,
habte selassie



I find your judging other faiths distasteful, and lacking mercy.

 When Jesus was asked by the Roman soldier to heal his servant, Jesus did not tell him to go and be baptized by John first or call him a heretic as you are. He told everyone that he had more faith than anyone including you.

Jesus also said God desires Mercy, And maybe God has a plan for those you call heretics.
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2012, 08:53:03 PM »

If one group is ignorant of the other group, then how can you decide that they are better?

It's like this nonsense about Protestants being worse off because they are not Orthodox, well if they have no knowledge of Orthodoxy then how can it ever be decided that they are worse off? But of course from the perspective of the Orthodox they are...

All we can do is pray for the non-Orthodox to find the narrow road to Orthodoxy. Let God figure out what is better for the non-Orthodox.
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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2012, 09:17:35 PM »

Further this question requires us to dig deep into our own Orthodox Christian ontology..

But I see you are an OO. Huh
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 09:33:53 PM »

Further this question requires us to dig deep into our own Orthodox Christian ontology..

But I see you are an OO. Huh
How do you see those differing?
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2012, 09:39:49 PM »

Further this question requires us to dig deep into our own Orthodox Christian ontology..

But I see you are an OO. Huh
How do you see those differing?

IDK, mayhaps the whole Christology issue to begin with. We aren't the same, last time I checked we are also two separate churches.
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« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2012, 09:40:55 PM »

Further this question requires us to dig deep into our own Orthodox Christian ontology..

But I see you are an OO. Huh

The person who wrote the original post is also OO.   Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2012, 09:42:44 PM »

Further this question requires us to dig deep into our own Orthodox Christian ontology..

But I see you are an OO. Huh

The person who wrote the original post is also OO.   Smiley

I didn't know that. This site confuses me, I'm sorry. Lips Sealed
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« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2012, 09:49:11 PM »

It's OK.   Smiley  One of the founders of this site was an OO, so the word Orthodox is used by both OO's and EO's.  Of course you can use "Non-Chalcedonian" if you want to.  You don't have to call us Orthodox.  It's just that you need to realize the both can call themselves Orthodox here, and you may want to look at the person's jurisdiction to see where they are coming from.
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« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2012, 09:52:53 PM »

It's OK.   Smiley  One of the founders of this site was an OO, so the word Orthodox is used by both OO's and EO's.  Of course you can use "Non-Chalcedonian" if you want to.  You don't have to call us Orthodox.  It's just that you need to realize the both can call themselves Orthodox here, and you may want to look at the person's jurisdiction to see where they are coming from.

Sounds reasonable enough. I'm sorry. laugh
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« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2012, 10:17:11 PM »

Sounds reasonable enough. I'm sorry. laugh

Even if you do believe they are not a part of the Church, many of their members that post here have alot of profitable things to say and are very much worthwhile to read.

Even some of the Protestants like David Young provide plenty of substance in their posts. As long as you can discern, you should be fine.
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« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2012, 10:23:48 PM »

Quite appropriate for this discussion is mention of the fact that today, November 22, 2012, is the 49th anniversary of the repose of C. S. Lewis.
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« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2012, 10:26:15 PM »

Quite appropriate for this discussion is mention of the fact that today, November 22, 2012, is the 49th anniversary of the repose of C. S. Lewis.

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« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2012, 10:26:41 PM »

Sounds reasonable enough. I'm sorry. laugh

Even if you do believe they are not a part of the Church, many of their members that post here have alot of profitable things to say and are very much worthwhile to read.

Even some of the Protestants like David Young provide plenty of substance in their posts. As long as you can discern, you should be fine.

Absolutely, I concur.
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« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2012, 11:47:32 PM »

I would say that it was largely how God spoke to me and what He called out to me while I was a Protestant that led to my pursuit of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2012, 11:48:52 PM »

I would say that it was largely how God spoke to me and what He called out to me while I was a Protestant that led to my pursuit of Orthodoxy.

Did he speak English? Grin
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« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2012, 12:00:00 AM »

This came up in convo between me, an OO, and an EO. I am open to either view if they differ.  I cannot imagine how christology would matter. We both believe in theosis, as I understand it, so our soteriology is the same, no?  

The subject was along the lines of the spiritual merits of heterodox Christianity among the non-Orthodox.
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« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2012, 01:43:40 AM »

I would say that it was largely how God spoke to me and what He called out to me while I was a Protestant that led to my pursuit of Orthodoxy.

Did he speak English? Grin
He spoke in song.  Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2012, 04:37:23 AM »

Quote
Question:
Which would be better for someone who is not/would not be/doesn't have a chance to be... Orthodox to be?


Protestant, at least they are some kind of Christian
Doesn't matter unless it is Orthodox, they are outside of the church and all other faith is fruitless


Catholic is non-Orthodox as well.
Why does nobody think that Catholic Christians are also at least some kind of Christian?
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« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2012, 05:04:02 AM »

Quote
Question:
Which would be better for someone who is not/would not be/doesn't have a chance to be... Orthodox to be?


Protestant, at least they are some kind of Christian
Doesn't matter unless it is Orthodox, they are outside of the church and all other faith is fruitless


Catholic is non-Orthodox as well.
Why does nobody think that Catholic Christians are also at least some kind of Christian?
Nobody? That's an awfully strong generalization. And so not true.   (Hint: The poll you're quoting reflects only the mind of the individual poster who created the poll. Don't take it as representative of the forum as a whole. IMO, the poll as phrased is actually quite stupid.)
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« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2012, 05:13:17 AM »

Quote
Question:
Which would be better for someone who is not/would not be/doesn't have a chance to be... Orthodox to be?


Protestant, at least they are some kind of Christian
Doesn't matter unless it is Orthodox, they are outside of the church and all other faith is fruitless


Catholic is non-Orthodox as well.
Why does nobody think that Catholic Christians are also at least some kind of Christian?
Nobody? That's an awfully strong generalization. And so not true.   (Hint: The poll you're quoting reflects only the mind of the individual poster who created the poll. Don't take it as representative of the forum as a whole. IMO, the poll as phrased is actually quite stupid.)
The example raised in the conversation was Protestant, and as a church that is farther from Orthodoxy than Catholic, it better grasped the disparity of theology along with the presence of some sort of Christian faith which I used to more closely focus the concept I was going for.

The particular question was phrased as it was because if they (the people in question) were not Orthodoxy, then they should become Orthodox, but my point is that they didn't have the chance or the teaching to let them be open to it, but then they still choose something else, and if they did have the chance, then the chose something else anyway. I thought it would be best to keep the OP as short and simple as possible.

Walter, some even take for granted that Catholics are Christians.  I'm just waiting for Catholics to adjust some of their ecclesiology and a few other details so they can be Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 05:18:17 AM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2012, 08:51:25 PM »

Quote
Question:
Which would be better for someone who is not/would not be/doesn't have a chance to be... Orthodox to be?


Protestant, at least they are some kind of Christian
Doesn't matter unless it is Orthodox, they are outside of the church and all other faith is fruitless


Catholic is non-Orthodox as well.
Why does nobody think that Catholic Christians are also at least some kind of Christian?

I love them as fellow Christians.

There have been many discussions on Catholic vs Orthodox as well.

I also respect all other non-christians as potential Christians too, God may have a plan for them that is beyond our comprehension.The parable of the workers shows that God is calling them every hour.


<< Matthew 20 >>
New International Version 1984   
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3“About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.

“He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7“‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9“The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13“But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
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« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2012, 03:52:18 PM »

This came up in discussion today. I support people being at least some kind of Christian. My friend is more conservative I think and views other Christian faith as not particularly valuable because it is not the truth as we have in Orthodoxy.  What is a proper Orthodox way of viewing this? Which do you agree with? Why?

isn't that a subjective thing?
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« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2012, 03:57:55 PM »

We know where God is we do not know where the God is not.
Salvation in any Christian denomination is better then none.
quite rational. I agree.
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« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2012, 04:01:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This is a radical question..

Heresies like Protestantism are very dangerous the spiritual health and growth of people, so we need to be worried about our fellow brothers and sisters in Protestant churches because such beliefs are discouraging rather than encouraging the true healing of Salvation.  It is sort like seeing your neighbors with terrible wounds on their bodies, but letting them hang out at Rite-Aid picking up bandaids and Tylenol rather than seeking the ER or Urgent Care for proper and restorative treatment.  However, in real life, you can't force a person to the hospital, you have to help them get there.  So with the Church, we know that heresies can't save or even really in a substantive spiritual way help anyone, however we also know that you can't force a person to seek good spiritual health. 

Further this question requires us to dig deep into our own Orthodox Christian ontology..

We have rules but we all know that its not intended that we legalistically follow all the rules at any given time, rather we are moved by the Holy Spirit ever towards the goal of healing from sin.  The Church is the healing, heresies are the damage.  However, we have to treat heresies like all sin, loving the sinner while condemning the sin.  So we can rightfully reject Protestant heresies as indeed spiritual reckless, self-defeating, and very dangerous, while at the same time in our day to day interactions with such folks be all the more compassion, loving, and inclusive.  Jesus told us to have those who reject the admonishment of the Church to be like heathen and tax-collectors, while at the same time also told us to love our enemies and pray for those who use us spitefully.  In that regard, we must love and pray for heretics all the more because of their heresies.  This means being polite, being inviting, being forgiving, being genuinely nice, so that folks feel invited to be healed in the Church.  The Shepherd left the 99 on the mountain to search carefully for the one that got away, we need to follow His example for those outside the Church.  They will never come into the Church if they don't genuinely feel invited, and this means no pressure and no judgement.  Judgement is for those inside, those outside should be warmly welcomed in all instances.

stay blessed,
habte selassie



I find your judging other faiths distasteful, and lacking mercy.

 When Jesus was asked by the Roman soldier to heal his servant, Jesus did not tell him to go and be baptized by John first or call him a heretic as you are. He told everyone that he had more faith than anyone including you.

Jesus also said God desires Mercy, And maybe God has a plan for those you call heretics.

I am glad i am not alone on this subject. I totaally agree with you.
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« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2012, 04:04:41 PM »

The closer the person is to Orthodox Christianity in words, deeds and thoughts, the better. Regardless of how they word it. We all have the law of God in our hearts and, of course, the christianities give more opportunity to word it in a better way, thus making it easier to follow this "law".

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« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2012, 03:16:32 PM »

It is good for people to pursue Christ. Many of them will never come to Orthodoxy, but their heart is still pursuing Christ. Before I was Orthodox my Protestantism was not fruitless; quite to the contrary, my Protestantism bore the fruit of bringing me to Orthodoxy.
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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2012, 07:25:45 PM »

It is good for people to pursue Christ. Many of them will never come to Orthodoxy, but their heart is still pursuing Christ. Before I was Orthodox my Protestantism was not fruitless; quite to the contrary, my Protestantism bore the fruit of bringing me to Orthodoxy.

Precisely why we must not condemn others for their choices. Let The farmer call them at the last hour if he chooses.

 
<< Matthew 20 >>
New International Version 1984   
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3“About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.

“He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7“‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9“The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13“But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
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« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2012, 07:31:11 PM »

It is good for people to pursue Christ. Many of them will never come to Orthodoxy, but their heart is still pursuing Christ. Before I was Orthodox my Protestantism was not fruitless; quite to the contrary, my Protestantism bore the fruit of bringing me to Orthodoxy.

Precisely why we must not condemn others for their choices. Let The farmer call them at the last hour if he chooses.

 
<< Matthew 20 >>
New International Version 1984   
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3“About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.

“He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7“‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9“The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13“But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

So, do not condemn people for choosing heresy?
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Great googly moogly!


« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2012, 08:03:56 PM »

What did Jesus mean to teach us by that parable?

They will be Judged by God , The farmer will decide what the workers are owed, Man is incapable IMO.


<< Matthew 7 >>
New International Version 1984   
Judging Others

1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.


I need to say the Lords prayer everyday, I am a sinner , I am not righteous , I need a savior to help me , I cannot make it on my own, so why should I condemn others while I need forgiveness too.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 08:13:32 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

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