Author Topic: Pope suggests it’s best to be ‘honest’ and leave the Church if you don’t believe  (Read 4737 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,970
  • Tenzin and Desmond
    • The Mystical Theology
VATICAN CITY, August 28, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) - In his Angelus address Sunday, Pope Benedict XVI spoke of Judas’ betrayal of Christ, saying that Judas’ problem was failing to leave Christ when he no longer believed – a “falsehood,” said the Pope, “which is a mark of the devil.”

“Judas,” said Pope Benedict, “could have left, as many of the disciples did; indeed, he would have left if he were honest. Instead he remained with Jesus. He did not remain because of faith, or because of love, but with the secret intention of taking vengeance on the Master.”

According to Human Life International Rome Director, Monsignor Ignacio Barreiro, the comments are very relevant to the current situation in the Catholic Church.  Msgr. Barreiro, who holds a doctorate in Dogmatic theology, told LifeSiteNews that “for those Catholics who cannot bring themselves to believe the formal teachings of the Church on life and family matters it would be more honest to leave the Church rather than betraying Her.”
....
Pope Benedict, in his remarks, drew a distinction between believing and understanding, noting that some disciples walked away from Christ because they did not believe. However, he said, even those who remained believed before they fully understood.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 11:46:53 AM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Fabio Leite

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,790
    • Vida Ortodoxa
Refreshing. :)

VATICAN CITY, August 28, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) - In his Angelus address Sunday, Pope Benedict XVI spoke of Judas’ betrayal of Christ, saying that Judas’ problem was failing to leave Christ when he no longer believed – a “falsehood,” said the Pope, “which is a mark of the devil.”

“Judas,” said Pope Benedict, “could have left, as many of the disciples did; indeed, he would have left if he were honest. Instead he remained with Jesus. He did not remain because of faith, or because of love, but with the secret intention of taking vengeance on the Master.”

According to Human Life International Rome Director, Monsignor Ignacio Barreiro, the comments are very relevant to the current situation in the Catholic Church.  Msgr. Barreiro, who holds a doctorate in Dogmatic theology, told LifeSiteNews that “for those Catholics who cannot bring themselves to believe the formal teachings of the Church on life and family matters it would be more honest to leave the Church rather than betraying Her.”
....
Pope Benedict, in his remarks, drew a distinction between believing and understanding, noting that some disciples walked away from Christ because they did not believe. However, he said, even those who remained believed before they fully understood.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Ashman618

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 510
I know I had no problem leaving the church when I thought it was a bunch of nonsense, I wonder what makes unbelieving people stay besides wanting to destroy the church from the inside.

Offline izrima

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
I know I had no problem leaving the church when I thought it was a bunch of nonsense, I wonder what makes unbelieving people stay besides wanting to destroy the church from the inside.

A lot of the people who stay and want to change the RCC don't realize the endpoint of their campaign is its destruction. They love what they see in the RCC; I've met plenty of Paulists who were just as sincere in their love of the RCC as Dominicans. I think they are well-intentioned in the sense that they want the RCC to survive. The problem is that they think the RCC can only survive by "modernizing" to the point of basically becoming one of the dying mainstream Protestant denominations.

In large part, the RCC itself is to blame. When your doctrines aren't firmly rooted and you give people a council of sweeping reforms, of course they are going to want more. A century ago, who thought there would be masses in the vernacular, priests facing the congregation, looser fasting rules, and documents like Lumen Gentium? Once you go there, it isn't that far of a leap to the "Vatican III," female clergy, gay church marriages, birth control, and abortion crowd.

Offline Schultz

  • Christian. Guitarist. Scooterist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,671
  • Scion of the McKeesport Becks.
I know I had no problem leaving the church when I thought it was a bunch of nonsense, I wonder what makes unbelieving people stay besides wanting to destroy the church from the inside.

Intertia, otherwise known as "tradition."

Don't be fooled, it happens in all faiths and, gasp, even in the Orthodox Church.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline choy

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,316
I don't believe in his infallibility.  So...

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
I don't believe in his infallibility.  So...

See? Now you even have the blessing of the Pope to leave.

Offline choy

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,316
I don't believe in his infallibility.  So...

See? Now you even have the blessing of the Pope to leave.

Sweet!!!!!  ;D

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,799
I am starting to like this Pope.  About time they had a German Pope.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,265
  • Paint It Red
I am starting to like this Pope.  About time they had a German Pope.
Yeah Pope Benedict is great.

I really want Rome to return to us and have the Roman Papacy back with us.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline izrima

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
Let's not forget the major areas of concern with Pope Benedict, though--I wouldn't call his pre-papal handling of the clerical abuse scandals anything to be proud of. I do think he was the best candidate available.

Offline JamesR

  • The Second Coming of Jason
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,917
  • Remember me?
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
No offense to the Pope, but this is a load of bologna in my opinion. I believe that it is best to stay in the Church no matter what, because perhaps being around all the worship and godliness can change your mind or put a new perspective on things. Separating from God is the WORST thing you can do. Maybe if Judas had stayed longer with Jesus and the Apostles instead of killing himself, he would have repented, confessed and redeemed himself as an Apostle.

What is it with Rome becoming so liberal now and making all these concessions to society? What is this the Anglican/Episcopal Church now or something? I hear that now they are also delaying Chrismation/Confirmation until High-School. What the heck is up with that? That is purely unpatristic and violates years of Church tradition. Delaying it until High-School seems like it was done under the influence of Protestantism or that it was a concession to make the RC Church more appealing to Protestants. Either way, it is heretical and Protestant. And now, they are encouraging unfaithful people to leave the Church. That's bogus. That's like encouraging sick people to leave the hospital. Their ailment will only become worse. The best thing to do is stay at the hospital where all of the medicine and treatment for your soul lies, instead of leaving it behind.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

  • Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,297
  • The Lord helps those who help others
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: God
Where is the Mercy in what he is saying, I often ask my friends why we find that for most people it is easier to say  :police: you rather than what God wants us to say, I love you, no matter what they have done this is the mercy Jesus told us to have.  police smiley added instead of expletive. - Serb1389

Matthew 7

Ask, Seek, Knock

7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

9“Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 12:39:43 AM by serb1389 »
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline choy

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,316
I am starting to like this Pope.  About time they had a German Pope.
Yeah Pope Benedict is great.

I really want Rome to return to us and have the Roman Papacy back with us.

Done!



PS, do I have to give credit to the site where I took this from? ;)

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,739
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
VATICAN CITY, August 28, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) - In his Angelus address Sunday, Pope Benedict XVI spoke of Judas’ betrayal of Christ, saying that Judas’ problem was failing to leave Christ when he no longer believed – a “falsehood,” said the Pope, “which is a mark of the devil.”

“Judas,” said Pope Benedict, “could have left, as many of the disciples did; indeed, he would have left if he were honest. Instead he remained with Jesus. He did not remain because of faith, or because of love, but with the secret intention of taking vengeance on the Master.”

According to Human Life International Rome Director, Monsignor Ignacio Barreiro, the comments are very relevant to the current situation in the Catholic Church.  Msgr. Barreiro, who holds a doctorate in Dogmatic theology, told LifeSiteNews that “for those Catholics who cannot bring themselves to believe the formal teachings of the Church on life and family matters it would be more honest to leave the Church rather than betraying Her.”
....
Pope Benedict, in his remarks, drew a distinction between believing and understanding, noting that some disciples walked away from Christ because they did not believe. However, he said, even those who remained believed before they fully understood.
I don't really agree with this analysis. There is a difference between staying with the church in unbelief and actually wanting to take revenge on it and betraying it. In the former instance, a person may have lots of doubts, but may still want to stay because he is seeking the truth or curious. There were lots of crowds that were listening to Jesus speak. Believing is important, but I think there are people who feel they do not know what to believe. Just like someone whose body doesn't know how to heal something on its own and needs a doctor, a person who feels he doesn't know what to believe but is still seeking answers in the Church shouldn't make a disavowal and leave the community in my opinion.

There is room for people changing their minds, repenting etc. And people go through different phases. So I don't think they should be separated and rejected if they feel "agnostic" but are still seeking and curious, etc. This seems counterproductive.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,739
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Delaying it until High-School seems like it was done under the influence of Protestantism or that it was a concession to make the RC Church more appealing to Protestants. Either way, it is heretical and Protestant. And now, they are encouraging unfaithful people to leave the Church. That's bogus. That's like encouraging sick people to leave the hospital. Their ailment will only become worse. The best thing to do is stay at the hospital where all of the medicine and treatment for your soul lies, instead of leaving it behind.
I agree with you, and thought of the hospital analogy too. Actually, I think a number of Protestant churches have the confirmation/chrismation process before highschool, like I think Presbyterian USA.

It's possible the Pope is on to something here, but is simply saying it too simplistically and coarsely. That is, if someone actually hates Christianity and rejects it, it makes sense that maybe the person should leave the church in a clear way.

But this article's description seems to include people who may have lost their way, and I really disagree. Just think of all the times Jesus went to save the lost. Well, the people we are talking about, from Christ's perspective may be lost, but the Church's action should be the opposite- to approach and come near to find and bring them like sheep, brought by the shepherd to the flock.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 11:43:29 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline HabteSelassie

  • Ises and I-ity
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,314
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Double facepalm.

However not for what you think.  While surely His Eminence has put his Apostolic foot in his mouth several times before, I'm not sure this is an instance of such.  All of the more controversial remarks quoted in that article didn't come from the Pope, rather from another priest speaking afterwards.  That was a bit misleading by the author of that article, so the facepalm is for the misconception of the misleading article title quoted in the OP  :police:

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 11:53:20 PM by HabteSelassie »
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline macclesfieldfan1990

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
Like an irreligious Catholic will take Benedict's advice. ::)

Offline Nephi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,829
  • A non-Chalcedonian in Chalcedonian clothing.
  • Faith: Orthodox
I don't really agree with this analysis. There is a difference between staying with the church in unbelief and actually wanting to take revenge on it and betraying it. In the former instance, a person may have lots of doubts, but may still want to stay because he is seeking the truth or curious. There were lots of crowds that were listening to Jesus speak. Believing is important, but I think there are people who feel they do not know what to believe. Just like someone whose body doesn't know how to heal something on its own and needs a doctor, a person who feels he doesn't know what to believe but is still seeking answers in the Church shouldn't make a disavowal and leave the community in my opinion.

There is room for people changing their minds, repenting etc. And people go through different phases. So I don't think they should be separated and rejected if they feel "agnostic" but are still seeking and curious, etc. This seems counterproductive.

I think it may be in partial reference to liberal Catholics that are about as close to Rome as New Agers or Hindus. These people often participate strongly in the RCC and are very vocal for "reform" - hence they are betraying it by not believing its doctrines, and opposing it.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
I know I had no problem leaving the church when I thought it was a bunch of nonsense, I wonder what makes unbelieving people stay besides wanting to destroy the church from the inside.

I think this declaration made by the Pope is clearly a good and upfront statement.  I have seen, in a variety of churches along my journeys, where people should have left, but stayed and created irreparable damage to the community.  I am sure the same thing has happened to the Catholic Church as a whole.  If you don’t want to be there, go somewhere else and stop messing things up.  This has been, from what I have seen, the Orthodox mentality.  The Church will not change or alter itself for you, so either adapt yourself and accept the Church or go away.  Good on the Pope.

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,799
I know I had no problem leaving the church when I thought it was a bunch of nonsense, I wonder what makes unbelieving people stay besides wanting to destroy the church from the inside.

I think this declaration made by the Pope is clearly a good and upfront statement.  I have seen, in a variety of churches along my journeys, where people should have left, but stayed and created irreparable damage to the community.  I am sure the same thing has happened to the Catholic Church as a whole.  If you don't want to be there, go somewhere else and stop messing things up.  This has been, from what I have seen, the Orthodox mentality.  The Church will not change or alter itself for you, so either adapt yourself and accept the Church or go away.  Good on the Pope.

Very well put.  When I left the Lutheran Church, I was the Chairman of the Board of Elders at the church.  The Elders asked me to stay and try to "reform" what I thought was wrong, since many of them had a problem with the new pastor that we had.  No way!  I saw to much of this growing up as the son of a Lutheran pastor.  I told them "It is the Pastor who is Lutheran, not me.  I am not going to stay and pretend that I am something that I am not.  It will only lead to trouble, and that is not appropriate for a church."  I did the same when I left the Antiochian Church after having my prayers answered as to which was the correct calendar.  I did not want to stay and argue the issue, I just joined a Church that believed as I had been instructed.  I believe that the Pope is right in this case.  I hope that he backs up his statement with action and starts to defrock the liberal and chi-mo priests in the Church and start excommunicating those that say they are RC but run counter to all the teachings.  But, in the end, what he does in his church is really none of my business.


I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

  • Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,297
  • The Lord helps those who help others
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: God
I am starting to like this Pope.  About time they had a German Pope.
Yeah Pope Benedict is great.

I really want Rome to return to us and have the Roman Papacy back with us.

You must remember that the Papacy is one of the reasons we split, Jesus is the only one capable of leading us, all others are fallible.

This was and remains one of the main reasons we do not agree with them.

Before the split around AD 1000 there was never a Pope or supreme leader of the Church.

The sheep only recognize Jesus.

Orthodoxy holds that the only one sinless and therefore capable of leading his flock is Jesus.We have Bishops and Archbishops but our head is Jesus.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 08:07:21 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Double facepalm.


:)

The cardinals are only thinking, "Oh my bad, kneeling is so hard after that huge Thanksgiving turkey dinner. Should have eaten more lightly in keeping with the Orthodox fast."

*****

Have any cardinals in the Catholic Church ever converted to Orthodoxy?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,522
FWIW, dogmatic declarations of councils end in the word "anathema". It's one thing to try to be faithful while having occasional questions and doubts, it's another to actively believe (and possibly teach) something in defiance of the Church.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline choy

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,316
Have any cardinals in the Catholic Church ever converted to Orthodoxy?

I am not sure but my guess is "no".  The Pope handpicks the Cardinals so they would have to be those who has shown a certain level of loyalty to the Papacy.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,980
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
I don't believe in his infallibility.  So...

See? Now you even have the blessing of the Pope to leave.

But he doesn't think the blessing to leave is infallible. I mean, is this papal statement actually going to be the first pinpointed infallible papal statement?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline HabteSelassie

  • Ises and I-ity
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,314
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Again, did anyone else actually read the Pope's actual statement? He mentioned nothing about asking folks to leave the Church.  The article title was misleading, those quotes came from another priest who spoke later.  From the actual address:

Quote
Why? Because Judas felt betrayed by Jesus, and decided that he in turn would betray Him. Judas was a Zealot, and wanted a triumphant Messiah, who would lead a revolt against the Romans. Jesus had disappointed those expectations. The problem is that Judas did not go away, and his most serious fault was falsehood, which is the mark of the devil. This is why Jesus said to the Twelve: “One of you is a devil." We pray to the Virgin Mary, help us to believe in Jesus, as St. Peter did, and to always be sincere with Him and with all people. Indeed, may all of us remain faithful to the Lord, even when our faith in his teachings is tested. May God bless you all!
http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-we-understand-because-we-have-believed

Hardly an invitation to the door ;)

I am starting to like this Pope.  About time they had a German Pope.
Yeah Pope Benedict is great.

I really want Rome to return to us and have the Roman Papacy back with us.

Done!




Lets hope the follow up meeting proves fruitful  :angel:



stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:08:54 AM by HabteSelassie »
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline Nicene

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 630
Some people should take that advice.
Thank you.

Offline Nephi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,829
  • A non-Chalcedonian in Chalcedonian clothing.
  • Faith: Orthodox
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Again, did anyone else actually read the Pope's actual statement? He mentioned nothing about asking folks to leave the Church.  The article title was misleading, those quotes came from another priest who spoke later.  From the actual address:

Quote
Why? Because Judas felt betrayed by Jesus, and decided that he in turn would betray Him. Judas was a Zealot, and wanted a triumphant Messiah, who would lead a revolt against the Romans. Jesus had disappointed those expectations. The problem is that Judas did not go away, and his most serious fault was falsehood, which is the mark of the devil. This is why Jesus said to the Twelve: “One of you is a devil." We pray to the Virgin Mary, help us to believe in Jesus, as St. Peter did, and to always be sincere with Him and with all people. Indeed, may all of us remain faithful to the Lord, even when our faith in his teachings is tested. May God bless you all!
http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-we-understand-because-we-have-believed

Hardly an invitation to the door ;)

Quote
Finally, Jesus knew that even among the twelve apostles there was one that did not believe: Judas. Judas could have left, as many of the disciples did; indeed, he would have left if he were honest. Instead he remained with Jesus. He did not remain because of faith, or because of love, but with the secret intention of taking vengeance on the Master. Why? Because Judas felt betrayed by Jesus, and decided that he in turn would betray Him. Judas was a Zealot, and wanted a triumphant Messiah, who would lead a revolt against the Romans. Jesus had disappointed those expectations. The problem is that Judas did not go away, and his most serious fault was falsehood, which is the mark of the devil. This is why Jesus said to the Twelve: “One of you is a devil” (John 6.70). We pray to the Virgin Mary, help us to believe in Jesus, as St. Peter did, and to always be sincere with Him and with all people.

Hardly an invitation to stay and keep disbelieving. ;)

Although it's not a direct admonition to leave, either.

Offline Peter J

  • still a CAF poster
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,488
  • Faith: Christian
About time they had a German Pope.

I'll see what I can do.
- Peter Jericho

Offline Peter J

  • still a CAF poster
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,488
  • Faith: Christian
All of the more controversial remarks quoted in that article didn't come from the Pope, rather from another priest speaking afterwards.  That was a bit misleading by the author of that article,

I remember the article in question, and I think your ^^ comment is right on the money. It's definitely misleading the way the author keeps switching between quoting the pope and quoting one Monsignor Ignacio Barreiro.

On the other hand, I'm not really sure how much good it does saying this: I think for some people this is all just an opportunity to bash the pope.
- Peter Jericho

Online Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,924
PS, do I have to give credit to the site where I took this from? ;)

Don't know what site you got it from, but I was the creator and I rarely charge.  ;D