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Author Topic: EP Cites Conditions for One Unified UOC in Ukraine  (Read 2110 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 19, 2012, 12:23:58 PM »


19-11-2012

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/orthodox/constantinople_patriarchy/50275/

Ecumenical Patriarch Names Condition For Unification of Ukrainian Churches in Local Church.


Based on article in  Ukrainian newspaper Ukrainia Moloda found here:

http://www.umoloda.kiev.ua/number/2176/161/77494/
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2012, 12:30:40 PM »

I would not credit either source as being authoritative. Since the likelihood of the current Ukrainian government actually petitioning Constantinople is between nil and none existent, this is a whole lot of hooey in my mind. Nothing of the sort on the EP's own website - which is up to date as of this morning.
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2012, 12:42:23 PM »

It's RISU. I will wait for something more reliable.
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2012, 12:49:51 PM »

It's RISU. I will wait for something more reliable.
Indeed. Especially as the EP has NO say in the matter.
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2012, 12:52:07 PM »

I would not credit either source as being authoritative. Since the likelihood of the current Ukrainian government actually petitioning Constantinople is between nil and none existent, this is a whole lot of hooey in my mind. Nothing of the sort on the EP's own website - which is up to date as of this morning.


Thanks.  That's a good point about checking the web site of the EP.  I was just reading the article in Ukrainia Moloda and I wondering about the journalist and how much she knows about theology and/or the church goverance of the Orthodox Church.  For example mention is made of the "superiority"of the EP rather than being the First among Equals.  The actual quote from the EP that he prays for unity does not give a game plan for unity or a time frame.
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2012, 01:54:48 PM »

It's RISU. I will wait for something more reliable.
Indeed. Especially as the EP has NO say in the matter.

You really dislike the EP, don't you?
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2012, 02:36:17 PM »

It's RISU. I will wait for something more reliable.
Indeed. Especially as the EP has NO say in the matter.

You really dislike the EP, don't you?
No.
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2012, 03:16:10 PM »

Just make Ukraine autocephalous and thats that.
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2012, 03:17:21 PM »

It's RISU. I will wait for something more reliable.
Indeed. Especially as the EP has NO say in the matter.

You really dislike the EP, don't you?

I am under EP and I agree with ialmisry.
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2012, 03:19:08 PM »

Just make Ukraine autocephalous and thats that.

Why won't the Vatican make its Ukrainian branch autocephalous?

Funnily most wordy people supporting the "necessity" of Ukrainian autocephaly are those, whose Church consider the concept of autocephaly heretical.
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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2012, 03:19:49 PM »

Just make Ukraine autocephalous and thats that.

Why won't the Vatican make its Ukrainian branch autocephalous?

Funnily most wordy people supporting the "necessity" of Ukrainian autocephaly are those, whose Church consider the concept of autocephaly heretical.
We're not supposed to notice that.
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 03:22:34 PM »

The Church of Ukraine is more organisationally from Moscow than the UGCC is from the Vatican. That's the fact.
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 03:28:08 PM »

I don't understand the need for autocephaly. If we can have Finnish church, Finnish services, Finnish clergy etc. without autocephaly I don't understand why would it be impossible to have Ukrainian church, Ukrainian services, Ukrainian clergy etc. without autocephaly.
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2012, 03:28:17 PM »

Just make Ukraine autocephalous and thats that.

Why won't the Vatican make its Ukrainian branch autocephalous?

Funnily most wordy people supporting the "necessity" of Ukrainian autocephaly are those, whose Church consider the concept of autocephaly heretical.

Well, true, there is no autocephally in the Catholic Church.  At least not yet.
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2012, 03:30:53 PM »

I don't understand the need for autocephaly. If we can have Finnish church, Finnish services, Finnish clergy etc. without autocephaly I don't understand why would it be impossible to have Ukrainian church, Ukrainian services, Ukrainian clergy etc. without autocephaly.

It is more political than theological.  There is a lot of bad blood between Ukrainians and
Russians.  Of course we would want that to heal.  But forcing Ukrainians to be under any authority from any Russian, even in ecclesiology, will not facilitate the healing.  We can't just say, "you know what, suck it."  If we want them to be friends in the long run, they need to be separated first.  You can't expect friendship to develop when there is a virtual headlock with each other.
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2012, 03:43:44 PM »

It's RISU. I will wait for something more reliable.
Indeed. Especially as the EP has NO say in the matter.

The Ecumenical Patriarchate, the "First Throne" commemorated by the Holy Orthodox Churches, has the canonical responsibility to hear appeals from within the Holy Orthodox Churches, among other responsibilities to them.  The uncanonical administrative structure and communal relations in Ukraine is a matter of great concern for the Holy Orthodox Churches, and at some point, whether it's discussed privately with the Church of Russia or in a Pan Orthodox Extraordinary Synod, the Ecumenical Patriarchate cannot continue to ignore the issue of Ukraine forever.

No doubt, however, the multiple Ukrainian jurisdictions precludes any intervention currently.  But if the Ukrainians can demonstrate a cry for unity among themselves, if the Church of Russia continues to ignore them, the Ecumenical Patriarchate should intervene and recommend a pan-Orthodox solution to the canonical chaos.

Never-the-less, I do not think organizing churches along national lines serves Orthodoxy best.  National churches are a result of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.  It's a shame Ukrainian hatred, earned unfortunately by the Russians and the Soviets, precludes at least at this time, a resolution with the Church of Russia, the largest of the Holy Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2012, 03:45:27 PM »

Just make Ukraine autocephalous and thats that.

Why won't the Vatican make its Ukrainian branch autocephalous?

Funnily most wordy people supporting the "necessity" of Ukrainian autocephaly are those, whose Church consider the concept of autocephaly heretical.
We're not supposed to notice that.



Quite true, 'sui juris' is NOT in any way equivalent to 'autonomous' let alone 'autocephalous.'
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« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2012, 03:48:24 PM »

Just make Ukraine autocephalous and thats that.

Why won't the Vatican make its Ukrainian branch autocephalous?

Funnily most wordy people supporting the "necessity" of Ukrainian autocephaly are those, whose Church consider the concept of autocephaly heretical.
We're not supposed to notice that.



Quite true, 'sui juris' is NOT in any way equivalent to 'autonomous' let alone 'autocephalous.'

It is equivalent to autonomous.  Autonomous means self governing (as what sui juris means) but not really separate.  For example, US states are autnomous, they don't rule one another, but they are not totally free from the blanket authority of the Federal Government.  Autocephally would be more like the British Commonwealth of Nations.
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« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2012, 03:55:08 PM »

Just make Ukraine autocephalous and thats that.

Why won't the Vatican make its Ukrainian branch autocephalous?

Funnily most wordy people supporting the "necessity" of Ukrainian autocephaly are those, whose Church consider the concept of autocephaly heretical.
We're not supposed to notice that.



Quite true, 'sui juris' is NOT in any way equivalent to 'autonomous' let alone 'autocephalous.'

It is equivalent to autonomous.  Autonomous means self governing (as what sui juris means) but not really separate.  For example, US states are autnomous, they don't rule one another, but they are not totally free from the blanket authority of the Federal Government. 
That is not how it was set up, but to go more into that might get political.
Autocephally would be more like the British Commonwealth of Nations.
Not really. The BC resembles Pastor Aeternus, with its sole head/monarch.
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« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2012, 03:57:37 PM »

It is equivalent to autonomous.  Autonomous means self governing (as what sui juris means) but not really separate.  For example, US states are autnomous, they don't rule one another, but they are not totally free from the blanket authority of the Federal Government.  Autocephally would be more like the British Commonwealth of Nations.

Only patriarchal Churches are in some degrees like autonomous Churches. Churches primated by archbishops are far from it. However no sui iuris Church can glorify a Saint what is able to autocephalous, autonomous and self-ruled Churches.
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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2012, 04:00:21 PM »

That is not how it was set up, but to go more into that might get political.

Well, true, hard to really find an exact secular equivalent.

Not really. The BC resembles Pastor Aeternus, with its sole head/monarch.

Well, not the modern Commonwealth.  The Monarch doesn't really have much power to govern the nations.  I think the most she can do is suspend parliament, or even abolish it.  But that will only trigger an election and the nation will still form their own new government.  Unlike the Pope, the Queen doesn't get to tell us what to do.
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« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012, 04:31:42 PM »

The Church of Ukraine is more organisationally from Moscow than the UGCC is from the Vatican. That's the fact.

Not true. The UGCC in Ukraine organises itself as it likes, even claiming a title for its head which is not recognised by Rome. The UGCC outside Ukraine coordinates with Latin-rite local bishops though.
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« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2012, 04:37:30 PM »

The Church of Ukraine is more organisationally from Moscow than the UGCC is from the Vatican. That's the fact.

Not true. The UGCC in Ukraine organises itself as it likes, even claiming a title for its head which is not recognised by Rome. The UGCC outside Ukraine coordinates with Latin-rite local bishops though.

Can the UGCC ordain a bishop without asking the pope? It can't. Can the Ukrainian Orthodox Church freely choose and ordain its bishops? It can.
Can the UGCC glorify a saint? It can't. Can the Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop glorify a saint? It can.
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« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2012, 04:44:52 PM »

Can the UGCC ordain a bishop without asking the pope? It can't. Can the Ukrainian Orthodox Church freely choose and ordain its bishops? It can.
Can the UGCC glorify a saint? It can't. Can the Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop glorify a saint? It can.

Partly why they want the Patriarchate.
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« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2012, 05:02:10 PM »

Can the UGCC ordain a bishop without asking the pope? It can't. Can the Ukrainian Orthodox Church freely choose and ordain its bishops? It can.
Can the UGCC glorify a saint? It can't. Can the Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop glorify a saint? It can.

Partly why they want the Patriarchate.

But...How would being a Patriarchate in union with Rome alter the status quo under Roman Canon Law of a 'sui juris' Church? Rome would never, ever accept the premise that a local church may glorify its own saints and select its own bishops without the consent of the Universal Pontiff. Certainly not since Vatican 1. In my opinion, the UGCC wants to have it both ways - be independent and self-ruling like all Orthodox Churches while being 'protected' from the Russians by the 'power' of Rome and the Papacy. In the long run, as I see it, the Ukrainians are more likely to get their own Church through the Orthodox rather than through Rome.
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2012, 05:06:42 PM »

Can the UGCC ordain a bishop without asking the pope? It can't. Can the Ukrainian Orthodox Church freely choose and ordain its bishops? It can.
Can the UGCC glorify a saint? It can't. Can the Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop glorify a saint? It can.

Partly why they want the Patriarchate.

But...How would being a Patriarchate in union with Rome alter the status quo under Roman Canon Law of a 'sui juris' Church? Rome would never, ever accept the premise that a local church may glorify its own saints and select its own bishops without the consent of the Universal Pontiff. Certainly not since Vatican 1. In my opinion, the UGCC wants to have it both ways - be independent and self-ruling like all Orthodox Churches while being 'protected' from the Russians by the 'power' of Rome and the Papacy. In the long run, as I see it, the Ukrainians are more likely to get their own Church through the Orthodox rather than through Rome.

A Patriarchate may choose which men to ordain bishop and just inform Rome as a formality.  Unless there is a serious objection from Rome (let's say an EC Church ordains someone from the SSPX to become an Eastern Bishop) then the ordination cannot be objected to by Rome.  Anything less than a Patriarchate means that even the list of candidates is something that comes from Rome.

There is more or a sense of autocephally with a Patriarchate.  Though it is still far from a true autocephally.
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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2012, 05:09:29 PM »

There is more or a sense of autocephally with a Patriarchate.  Though it is still far from a true autocephally.

No, it's (almost) autonomy. Not even close to autocephaly.
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« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2012, 05:19:50 PM »

There is more or a sense of autocephally with a Patriarchate.  Though it is still far from a true autocephally.

No, it's (almost) autonomy. Not even close to autocephaly.

It is still a charade.
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« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2012, 05:27:08 PM »

A beautiful idea of ​​uniting all Orthodox Christians in Ukraine today undoubtedly lead to a split in the Ukrainian Church. Half (at least) of the Orthodox people do not want to leave the Moscow Patriarchate, and Filaret recognizes the Patriarch nobody but himself , Greek Catholics do not want to go out of Rome. The result will be the same things, plus additional autocephaly, plus conflict in society: the Ukrainians have a very different political preferences.
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« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2012, 05:31:04 PM »

Can someone explain to me is the UGCC under the Pope any different than the UOC-MP under Moscow in that all bishops must be approved by Rome as the Bishops under the UOC-MP must be approved by Moscow? Just as the UOCUSA and UOCC (and even ACORD) must have their candidates for Bishop be approved by the EP. In the end you have Greek Catholics who answer to the pope, Ukrainian Orthodox who answer to Pat Kyrill (UOCMP) and Ukrainians in Diaspora who answer to the EP. There may be some autonomy of each of these churches, but in the end they answer to a foreign hierarch. Now I know we have the evil's of an independent church i.e. National church, yet the Serbs, Romanians, Georgians, and Bulgarians have their own National Church. Why are they allowed but the EP and Moscow each argue that Ukraine is their territory. Didn't Serbia, Georgia, Bulgaria, and Romania at one time be under either the EP or Moscow? There is no support for the UOCKP on the board due to rumors and lies the Russians have circulated about Pat Filaret to discredit him and it seems it has worked in the world of Orthodoxy outside of Ukraine whereas in Ukraine, the UOCKP is thriving and if were granted canonical recognition would be the 2nd or 3rd largest Orthodox Church in terms of numbers behind Russia or perhaps Romania. There are 3 factions in the UOCMP, one very pro-russian, one status quo, and one seeking possible union with the UOCKP but in a holding pattern. The UAOC was a sizable 3rd Orthodox organization, but her numbers have been dwindling as many have been leaving the UAOC and going with the UOCKP. It seems to me that Ukraine will never have independent canonical patriarchate because the Moscow and the EP won't allow it.
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« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2012, 05:37:19 PM »

Can someone explain to me is the UGCC under the Pope any different than the UOC-MP under Moscow in that all bishops must be approved by Rome as the Bishops under the UOC-MP must be approved by Moscow?

You have just mentioned the first one difference. UOC bishops don't have to be approved by Moscow.

http://orthodox.org.ua/page/statut-upts

point VII.A.2 (I hope you can read Ukrainian)

For example they are also allowed to glorify their saints.
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« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2012, 05:39:03 PM »

So Pat Kyrill does not have to approve of a new Ukrainian bishop? Are you sure about that?
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« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2012, 05:40:29 PM »

So Pat Kyrill does not have to approve of a new Ukrainian bishop? Are you sure about that?

The Statute does not mention that.
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« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2012, 05:49:19 PM »

Now I know we have the evil's of an independent church i.e. National church, yet the Serbs, Romanians, Georgians, and Bulgarians have their own National Church. Why are they allowed but the EP and Moscow each argue that Ukraine is their territory. Didn't Serbia, Georgia, Bulgaria, and Romania at one time be under either the EP or Moscow?

That is my thinking to.  If all those territories get autocephally and even Patriarchates, why not Ukraine?  Double standard.
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« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2012, 05:52:56 PM »

CHAPTER V
Primate UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH statute

 2. Предстоятель Української Православної Церкви обирається пожиттєво єпископатом Української Православної Церкви і благословляється Святішим Патріархом Московським і всієї Русі. translates into


Item 2. Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church elected for life bishops of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and blessed by His Holiness Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.

So the head hierarch of the UOCMP has to be "blessed" aka approved by the Patriarch of Moscow.
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« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2012, 05:54:54 PM »

Can someone explain to me is the UGCC under the Pope any different than the UOC-MP under Moscow in that all bishops must be approved by Rome as the Bishops under the UOC-MP must be approved by Moscow? Just as the UOCUSA and UOCC (and even ACORD) must have their candidates for Bishop be approved by the EP. In the end you have Greek Catholics who answer to the pope, Ukrainian Orthodox who answer to Pat Kyrill (UOCMP) and Ukrainians in Diaspora who answer to the EP. There may be some autonomy of each of these churches, but in the end they answer to a foreign hierarch. Now I know we have the evil's of an independent church i.e. National church, yet the Serbs, Romanians, Georgians, and Bulgarians have their own National Church. Why are they allowed but the EP and Moscow each argue that Ukraine is their territory. Didn't Serbia, Georgia, Bulgaria, and Romania at one time be under either the EP or Moscow? There is no support for the UOCKP on the board due to rumors and lies the Russians have circulated about Pat Filaret to discredit him and it seems it has worked in the world of Orthodoxy outside of Ukraine whereas in Ukraine, the UOCKP is thriving and if were granted canonical recognition would be the 2nd or 3rd largest Orthodox Church in terms of numbers behind Russia or perhaps Romania. There are 3 factions in the UOCMP, one very pro-russian, one status quo, and one seeking possible union with the UOCKP but in a holding pattern. The UAOC was a sizable 3rd Orthodox organization, but her numbers have been dwindling as many have been leaving the UAOC and going with the UOCKP. It seems to me that Ukraine will never have independent canonical patriarchate because the Moscow and the EP won't allow it.
The EP doesn't have a say.  Moscow is a different matter.
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« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2012, 05:59:55 PM »

Reply from Patriarch Bartholomew to Patriarch Alexis
July 11, 1995, Prot. No. 937
Your Beatitude and Most Holy ALEXIY, Patriarch of Moscow and all
Russia, our Modesty's most beloved and dear brotherin Christ God and
concelebrant, embracing Your venerable Beatitude fraternally in the
Lord, we greet You exuberantly.
We received Your Beloved and distinguished Beatitude's
lengthy letter dated May 18, 1995, Protocol No. 1308, and read it with
due care during a session of our Holy and Sacred Synod. The tone of
this letter and its contents, which do not in the le.ast correspond to the
presumed kindred and by definition good relations between our two
sister Churches, naturally stirred in all of us here - and certainly in all
ofthe other Orthodox who received it - not only astonishment, but also
very deep bitterness and even grave disappointment.


to read the rest of this article please go here:  http://www.bruoc.ca/images/easternchurchesjournal-v2-n3%20protocol%20937.pdf  - Serb1389
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« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2012, 06:03:50 PM »

So the head hierarch of the UOCMP has to be "blessed" aka approved by the Patriarch of Moscow.

Yes, as in the autonomous Churches. Dioceasan bishops don't.
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« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2012, 06:06:20 PM »

Reply from Patriarch Bartholomew to Patriarch Alexis
July 11, 1995, Prot. No. 937
Your Beatitude and Most Holy ALEXIY, Patriarch of Moscow and all
Russia, our Modesty's most beloved and dear brotherin Christ God and
concelebrant, embracing Your venerable Beatitude fraternally in the
Lord, we greet You exuberantly.
We received Your Beloved and distinguished Beatitude's
lengthy letter dated May 18, 1995, Protocol No. 1308, and read it with
due care during a session of our Holy and Sacred Synod. The tone of
this letter and its contents, which do not in the le.ast correspond to the
presumed kindred and by definition good relations between our two
sister Churches, naturally stirred in all of us here - and certainly in all
ofthe other Orthodox who received it - not only astonishment, but also
very deep bitterness and even grave disappointment.
The unexpected character of this letter compelled us, out of
respect for the peace held between us, not to respond immediately, so
that it not be thought that we were hasty or under pressure in judging
the curious and discomforting contents of the letter, or that we were
under the effect of the unfavorable sentiments which wejustifiably felt.
Therefore, after having allowed a reasonable amount of time
to pass, we answer you today with calmness by first returning the
Paschal greeting of peace on the occasion of Our Lord's Resurrection.
Then, in the most official terms and in the language of evangelical
sincerity, we are obliged to present the views ofthe Holy Great Church
ofChrist in Constantinople on this matter with the hope that in the future
we will not need to readdress such troubling concerns.
At apy rate, Your Beatitude, it is quite evident that in answering
you we will not render account on the accusations made against us,
whether directly or through insinuation, as though we were guilty. You
felt it your right to impute these accusations upon us for having receivedtaken. In this regard we would like to assure you that the induction of
the Ukrainian communities into the canonical order of the Orthodox
Church by receiving them under the omophorion of the Ecumenical
Patriarch will, we believe, finally prove to be beneficial for the relationship
between the Most Holy Church of Russia and the faithful in
Ukraine. This is so because on the one hand those received were
obligated to formally declare that they will not seek autocephaly of the
Ukrainian Church, or event a part of it, through know methods employed
by the "autocephalists" who operate in every way possible. On
the other hand, it is no longer possible for them to cooperate or to
commune with schismatic Ukrainian groups which are out of communion
with the Orthodox Church without bearing harm to themselves,
provided the canonical principle "one who receives communion with
another who is out ofcommunion finds oneself also out ofcommunion"
is still valid for them.
The same must be also said of our dutiful assistance offered
Estonia, as our official delegation mentioned above tried to fully
explain when they visited you. Responding to the persistent petition of
the Estonian Orthodox Church to return to the autonomous status
granted her by the Ecumenical Throne in a Patriarchal and Synodal
Tome, which unfortunately was forcefully and simultaneously unilaterally
abolished when the Soviets deprived the Estonians of political
freedom, we are providinga way out of the bitterness borne from the
hardships contiguously endured during the tyrannical period.
The development and further regularization in their relations
with the Church of Russia would thus become easier psychologically
and certainly no one could then deny the Church of Russia's contribution
to them.
Sixth, after having explained both of these matters - Ukraine
and Estonia - we were left with the impression that we had not only
fraternally informed the Most Holy Church of Russia of our intentions
and actions regarding these issues, but that we had also listened to the
fears and objections which you expressed to our Patriarchal delegation.
Our Holy and Sacred Synod indeed properly weighed all these things
with respect to how it would further handle things. For these reasons
we must say that your letter came literally as a lightning bolt out of the
236
Documents
blue sky. We were even astounded that during a recent trip to Geneva
Your Beatitude unjustifiably eschewed our Holy Stauropegial Church
there by not celebrating the solemn Divine Liturgy on the occasion of
your visit and instead you felt the need to go to a heterodox church,
which was indeed scandalous not only to the Orthodox, but to others as
well.
Seventh, we do not wish, dear brother, to comment on all that
His Eminence Metropolitan Damaskinos of Switzerland relayed to us
in writing concerning similar complaints coming either from Your
Beatitude directly or from His Eminence Metropolitan Kyrillos of
Smolensk and Kalliningrad who was accompanying you. Because
when you say, among other things, that for ourrecent visitto the Vatican
the consent ofall the Orthodox was needed, or that we "concelebrated"
with the Pope ofRome, then, certainly, our understanding ofeach other
becomes especially problematic.
Nonetheless, Your Beatitude, as much for ourselves personally
as for the most reverend brothers with us, we in no way desire to agitate
our fraternal relations. Our relations indeed are indispensable for all of
us now more than ever as we are in the midst of a world which is
constantly changing and being subjected to a myriad of dangers. Likewise,
however, we must state that the rumors regarding a break in our
relations or any other kind of threat find no justification whatsoever in
our good conscience; in no way, therefore,. will we be pressured by any
of our brothers. This would be demeaning and unacceptable not only
for us, but them as well.
Prayingfrom the depths ofour heart that both in peace and good
health you will continue the good fight for the restructuring and spiritual
edification of the Russian people which, to the joy and spiritual pride
of us all, is being renewed with God's blessings after their hardships,
we remain with indissoluble love in the Lord and esteem.
Your venerable Beatitude's Beloved brother in Christ,
+BARTHOLOMEW of Constantinople
Was there a point in there somewhere (btw source?)?
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« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2012, 06:26:02 PM »

http://www.bruoc.ca/images/easternchurchesjournal-v2-n3%20protocol%20937.pdf

In this regard we would like to assure you that the induction of
the Ukrainian communities into the canonical order of the Orthodox
Church by receiving them under the omophorion of the Ecumenical
Patriarch will, we believe, finally prove to be beneficial for the relationship
between the Most Holy Church of Russia and the faithful in
Ukraine. This is so because on the one hand those received were
obligated to formally declare that they will not seek autocephaly of the
Ukrainian Church, or event a part of it, through know methods employed
by the "autocephalists" who operate in every way possible. On
the other hand, it is no longer possible for them to cooperate or to
commune with schismatic Ukrainian groups which are out of communion
with the Orthodox Church without bearing harm to themselves,
provided the canonical principle "one who receives communion with
another who is out ofcommunion finds oneself also out ofcommunion"
is still valid for them.

Basically the EP and Moscow wheeling and dealing, the letter clearly states that by accepting the UOC in the USA, one of the conditions is that they would renounce Autocephally or help the autocephalists in Ukraine. THE EP GETS THE UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX IN THE DIASPORA AND MOSCOW GETS THE UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX IN UKRAINE AND THE EP STAYS OUT THE BUSINESS OF UKRAINE AS LONG AS MOSCOW STAYS OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF THE EP'S UKRAINIAN DIOCESE.
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« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2012, 06:27:32 PM »

http://www.bruoc.ca/images/ukrainian%20abridged%20version%20of%20protocol%20937.pdf
http://www.bruoc.ca/images/visnyk%20article%20re%20protocol%20937.pdf

THE "VISNYK" IS A NEWSLETTER OF THE UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH OF CANADA UNDER THE EP.
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« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2012, 06:30:46 PM »

the letter clearly states that by accepting the UOC in the USA, one of the conditions is that they would renounce Autocephally or help the autocephalists in Ukraine

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ialmisry
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Posts: 37,481



« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2012, 06:32:56 PM »

http://www.bruoc.ca/images/easternchurchesjournal-v2-n3%20protocol%20937.pdf

In this regard we would like to assure you that the induction of
the Ukrainian communities into the canonical order of the Orthodox
Church by receiving them under the omophorion of the Ecumenical
Patriarch will, we believe, finally prove to be beneficial for the relationship
between the Most Holy Church of Russia and the faithful in
Ukraine. This is so because on the one hand those received were
obligated to formally declare that they will not seek autocephaly of the
Ukrainian Church, or event a part of it, through know methods employed
by the "autocephalists" who operate in every way possible. On
the other hand, it is no longer possible for them to cooperate or to
commune with schismatic Ukrainian groups which are out of communion
with the Orthodox Church without bearing harm to themselves,
provided the canonical principle "one who receives communion with
another who is out ofcommunion finds oneself also out ofcommunion"
is still valid for them.

Basically the EP and Moscow wheeling and dealing, the letter clearly states that by accepting the UOC in the USA, one of the conditions is that they would renounce Autocephally or help the autocephalists in Ukraine. THE EP GETS THE UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX IN THE DIASPORA AND MOSCOW GETS THE UKRAINIAN ORTHODOX IN UKRAINE AND THE EP STAYS OUT THE BUSINESS OF UKRAINE AS LONG AS MOSCOW STAYS OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF THE EP'S UKRAINIAN DIOCESE.
Moscow has the Ukrainian Orthodox in Ukraine.  As for the Ukrainians that went on to make the UOC, Moscow didn't claim jurisdiction over them in the Tomos of Autocephaly for the OCA in 1970.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2012, 06:38:48 PM »

All this mess would be sorted out if there was some sort of universal authority over all the Orthodox Churches, you know, like an infallible supreme bishop.

















Sorry, couldn't resist  Grin
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ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,481



« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2012, 06:57:36 PM »

All this mess would be sorted out if there was some sort of universal authority over all the Orthodox Churches, you know, like an infallible supreme bishop.
Yeah, that works so well.


Sorry, couldn't resist  Grin
Ditto.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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