Coming out of the theological closet...

[Isaac]

Perhaps this is not a particularly theological topic, and perhaps (i say perhaps because i honestly don't know, being a very new member to the forum) this has already been discussed, but the topic comes to mind because...

Recently a good friend of mine was faced with the rather daunting task of telling his deeply committed Lutheran dad, that he was converting to Orthodoxy.  He decided to wait until thanksgiving, and he was less than pleased with the results-- no fighting or ridicule but a sort of anticlimactic resignation to his son's whims.. a phase perhaps.

My family is less religious, or at least my father was.  My mother, a baptist, is now converting to Orthodoxy (glory to God!).  So I didn't really have much conflict, though I know many other convert friends who faced a sort of social martyrdom when they told their families, or their former churches.  One convert told me that when he decided to become Orthodox, his wife (who did not agree with orthodoxy at all) was counselled by her pastor to leave her husband!!!  

The majority of my family, as I have said, is not very religious.  There were no feathers ruffled when I explained my newfound faith.  It simply wasn't taken very seriously, and probably still isn't.  Sure, they all came to my wedding, and my dad used words like "beautiful" and "ornate" to describe the Church and the Mystery he witnessed.  Everyone seemed to like the Greek food we had at the reception more than the Greek prayers that peppered an otherwise English Orthodox wedding.  No one has since had any questions for me about Orthodoxy, except my mother, who is now on her way to the catechumenate.  A kind of silent, polite toleration is how my own family has treated my conversion; which of course has both positive and negative elements to it.

So I'd like to open this topic to ask the forum about what difficulties they faced when telling the people around them about their decision to follow Christ into the saving enclosure of the Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church.  

- isaac

[Tikhon29605]

I think your response is pretty typical of many, especially if their family is not excessively religious. When I converted to Orthodoxy, my Baptist mother remarked "I know its not Roman Catholic, son, but with all these candles it sure LOOKS like it." But that was about all she ever said. My Dad just looked on in silence and said "Hmmm." But then, he never talks much anyway.  
   Father Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory used to say that secular people love to describe Orthodoxy as "an ancient and colorful religion with beautiful ceremonies".  
   Or one Southern Baptist friend of mine was more blunt when I converted, he said "I think you people are committing idolatry."  But, being from South Carolina, I am kind of immune to Baptist criticisms of anything, since they seem to hate everything from the catholic tradition anyway, I don't consider their opinions very educated, informed or even Scriptural.

[Pravoslavbob]

 But, being from South Carolina, I am kind of immune to Baptist criticisms of anything....

What's it like being Orthodox in the south?  I understand it's  a growing concern there like anywhere else.  Sorry if my question seems kind of weird, I just don't have much first-hand knowledge of what goes on there.

Maybe I'm starting a tangent that should be another thread?

[Jennifer]

So far my family is okay with it.  Although I come from a typical WASPy family where nothing unpleasant is ever discussed to your face.  God only knows what they're saying behind my back.  

My mother is confused and keeps asking me questions about the different Orthodox Churches.  

I've explained it to them as Catholicism without the pope.  I know that's not accurate but it's sufficient for a discussion with them.  As long as I'm not becoming Baptist or something 'born again' they're happy.  

My former RC priest is very upset with me.  His last comment to me (by e-mail) was "May God bless you."  I guess that's it.  The end of friendship, I suppose.  

One thing I've noticed is that people ascribe their own motivations to my decision.  For example, my RC friends assume it's because I share their problems with the RC (not conservative problems but typical mainstream RC problems - no married priesthood, sexism, etc.).  I don't go into details with them.  

[MsGuided]

No one in my family goes to church unless there is a wedding, funeral, baptism, etc.  My mother asked questions and made sure that I wasn't converting for the wrong reasons, and she genuinely wanted to know why I would bother jumping from RC to Orthodox, so I explained it as best as I could.  She understood and she knew that religion was an important thing to me so respected my decision.

My father said, "Well it would be pretty hypocritical of me if I told you what religion to be in, I mean, I don't even go to church.....but if you became Muslim.....THAT I would have a problem with."  Then we shared a nice laugh.  My father is not much of a talker either, and my mother can be a bit intimidating, so I was afraid about talking to them both.  But it has worked out fine so far.  Telling my grandparents will be different because they speak Italian, and I don't think there was as much of an Orthodox presence in Italy as there was RC But I think I can worry about extended family at a later time.  When the family isn't too religious either way, its a bit easier because all that's left for them to do is respect your adult decisions about your life.  

Kim

[Tikhon29605]

What's it like being Orthodox in the south?

Pretty much the same as it is in any other part of the United States. Orthodoxy is almost unknown here. We get that "What's that? Are you Jewish?" question a lot when we say we're Orthodox. Those few who have heard of Orthodoxy here always insist that it be preceded by some ethnic modifier (Greek, Russian, Serbian, Romanian etc). If you try to explain to them what the Orthodox Church is, in most cases it is going to take you awhile.
    And a word of caution about the American South, the so-called "Bible Belt." Although the South does have large percentage of its population that belong to the fundagelical churches, by no means are all Southerners Bible thumping fundamentalists. In fact, when you actually study the statistics, a large percentage of people in the South these days have no religious affliation at all. The South is becoming secular and jaded just like the rest of the country, although it does have pockets of conservatism (mostly in rural areas) that preserve the old ways.  
   The South is also becoming more diverse religiously as well.  The Baptists are not the only show in town here.  In my medium sized city of Greenville, SC, we have an Islamic mosque, a Hindu temple, two Jewish congregations (one Conservative and one Reformed) and a rather LARGE Unitarian "church" ( most of whose members are burned out fundagelicals by the way.)

[Natasha]

I am from NY and for the past few years + I  have been living in the south...wow...it is a totally different world down here-church included  !


Natasha (who always insists on using those darn ethnic modifiers)

[Ebor]

....  He decided to wait until thanksgiving, and he was less than pleased with the results-- no fighting or ridicule but a sort of anticlimactic resignation to his son's whims.. a phase perhaps.

Please forgive my coming in here, but I am puzzled by this sentence.  He was "less then pleased" because there was no quarrel or upset?  Did he want there to be something of that sort?

Speaking as a parent, the father's reaction sounds reasonable in a situation of a child intending to do something that is different from the family's patterns, as it were, but not illegal, immoral, dangerous or percieved by the parent as terribly unwise.

Ebor

[Isaac]

Less than pleased.  

Yes, forgive me Ebor... I see now that I poorly worded that statement.  His displeasure came from the fact that, even though there was no fighting (a good thing) there was really no reaction.  It simply wasn't taken very seriously.  He would liked to have had a profitable discussion, done in love, with his dad who is usually very inquisitive when it comes to theology.

[Pravoslavbob]

I am from NY and for the past few years + I  have been living in the south...wow...it is a totally different world down here-church included  !

Could you enlighten us a bit?  Sounds interesting.

Bob, who is ethnically mixed up, though at core Anglo-Saxonish and Slav-like.

[Pravoslavbob]

  The South is also becoming more diverse religiously as well.  The Baptists are not the only show in town here.  In my medium sized city of Greenville, SC, we have an Islamic mosque, a Hindu temple, two Jewish congregations (one Conservative and one Reformed) and a rather LARGE Unitarian "church" ( most of whose members are burned out fundagelicals by the way.)  

Very interesting.  Thanks for passing this along.

[Tikhon29605]

Very interesting.  Thanks for passing this along.

The best way to describe the South religiously is to imagine a world where 90% of the people are either Baptist, Methodist or Presbyterian.  The other 10% includes Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Eastern Orthodox, Jews, Mormons and atheists too.  The South is getting more and more religiously diverse, esp. in retirement areas and in the cities.  The rural South is still pretty much still the preserve of what I call the Southern Holy Trinity: the Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians.  But of those three, the Methodists are quite mild, kind and tolerant. They don't damn anybody, don't try to pass laws outlawing everything they dislike, nor do they try to cram their religion down anyone else's throats. The Presbyterians are divided into many factions. Most of them are just as tolerant, broad-minded, and mild as the Methodists are. Many of the more progressive Presbyterians are quite liberal, and take stands similar to the Episcopal Church on many issues.  There is a conservative fundamentalist Presbyterian element here. But even here in the South it is small and doesn't have the money or the influence of the mainline Presbyterians.   The Baptists, while stereotypically portrayed as shouting hillbillies damning everyone to hell, are really quite a bit more complex than that and divided into many factions, many of whom hate each other. Some of the Baptists are quite mainline, esp. the wealthy ones with the old historic "downtown" Churches and lots of members from the Country Club. They have plush churches, pipe organs, wealthy members, very mild preaching and pastors (not "preachers") that graduated from Duke and Emory and Vanderbilt. Some, including First Baptist of Greenville, SC (my hometown) even have female pastors now.  However, most of the Baptists in the South are not like that.  Most are what I'd call conservative evangelicals rather than full blown fundamentalists.  Most actually are pretty similar to Billy Graham. They don't get too involved in politics, except for maybe an occassional aside comment in the sermon. They stress the value of Sunday School, reading the Bible, and their famous "personal relationship with Jesus" which they believe begins by 'accepting Jesus' at an altar call at the end of a Baptist sermon.  I'd say probably 90% of the Baptists in the South are this type. Last of all, there are that crazy 10% of independent Baptists: watch out for them! LOL They are known more for what they preach AGAINST rather than what they stand for. They are anti-historical, anti-Catholic, preacher screaming, sin scorning, devil-hating, Bible-thumping creatures, many with a grossly under-educated clergy who seem to pander only to the theological passions and social phobias of their people. They make life in the South "interesting" if nothing else. LOL

[Natasha]

I don't even know where to begin! Those who check the e cafe have heard all about my struggles with this over the past year +. I don't even want to drag out all of my experiences with it, because it is too controversial, but in short, I have seen some STRANGE things. Things that would have NEVER happened in an established church up north.

[Anastasios]

I much prefer LIVING in the South--but I much prefer the Church life in the North

[johnnicholas]

Isaac, I have shared a lot of your experiences, but there was not a lot of announcing needed since I had been open in communicating my dissatisfaction with the way things were going in my church affiliation of 20 years.

  The process of my becoming a Catechumen etc. has been discussed and jawed about a lot with family and friends so its not a surprise to them. Kind of a natural progression of things, i suppose. Most people get the simple, "its kinda like a Catholic, only more" answer which is all they want to hear.

 Mom aint exactly thrilled, Brother thinks I am a bit strange, and my wife is just now grudingly getting used to it. This is the hardest part since she has not followed me in my journey, but we are fair, open and loving about the whole business so I trust, with God's help, no lasting damage will come.

[Pravoslavbob]

I much prefer LIVING in the South--but I much prefer the Church life in the North

The plot thickens......

[Anastasios]

The plot thickens......

What do you mean, Bob?

Allow me to ellaborate. I lived in the South for 11 years, and as soon as I can (in June) I am going back.  I love it. So much.  But Orthodox Church life down there is often so new that it is not well grounded and you get some strange things that you don't get in more established parishes up north.

Anastasios

[penelope]

For me, it's sucked, a lot.  It's been about a year and a half now, and my mother hasn't even gotten to the "civil but cold" stage.  My father's better, but still not "accepting" by any stretch of the imagination.  I have two older siblings and a twin brother; the two older ones have a bit of a mocking approach to the whole matter.  The only good one is my twin brother, who actually was the one to introduce me to the Church in the first place, although he still hasn't made up his mind what to do himself.

[Tikhon29605]

you get some strange things that you don't get in more established parishes up north.

Precisely! LOL I know exactly what you are talking about.

[Pravoslavbob]

What do you mean, Bob?
Anastasios

I see you put a smile after this comment that didn't come up on the board, 'cause I guess the smiles aren't working.  But just in case there's any question about it, I didn't mean anything by the remark.  I just find it all quite interesting.  Thank you for elaborating.

Bob

[Pravoslavbob]

For me, it's sucked, a lot.  It's been about a year and a half now, and my mother hasn't even gotten to the "civil but cold" stage.

That's rough, Penelope.  My mother was kind of weird about my conversion.   In her own way, she's a very devout Presbyterian/Methodist type.  In a sense, my conversion to Orthodoxy wasn't so bad, because before I had been interested in the Latin Church, which was just the kiss of death to her, although she would never admit that now.  At least Orthodoxy wasn't in communion with Rome!  She actually made a point of visiting my church a few times and she grudgingly admitted to  liking things about it, and she liked the priest quite a lot.  But we still had some strong disagreements that I wish we didn't have.  My dad eventually acquired an appreciation for Orthodoxy, and didn't see it as particularly strange.  RE: Mocking siblings.  I know exactly what you mean.  My brother teased me quite mercilessly about Orthodoxy, for  reasons best known to him.

Bob

[Sabbas]

I thought I might add something to this and ask something as well. First the question.

Did any of you who converted grow up in a Catholic Church that used the 'Old' Latin Mass? or have parents who did? and was your or your parents reaction, if they've been to church with you, one of thinking the Orthodox Church is maintaining what the Catholics got rid of at Vatican II?

The reason I ask is that my father grew up going to Catholic school and church every Sunday during the 1950's and when he went to serve in Vietnam his Church was still using the Latin Mass, but when he came back his aunt was handing out communion wafers! He had a falling out with the Catholic church during the next 15 years of his life. When I first took him to see the church I attend it was the Paschal Midnight Liturgy and he loved it! He now goes around saying the Orthodox Church is like the Catholic church in the 1950's but I am slowly helping him to realize that the Orthodox Church is more like the Western Church was 1100 years ago! but for now it doesn't really bother me.

I have never been to a Latin Mass, though I hope to see one at a Western Rite church someday, and I really can't imagine what it's like for someone who grew up with that to become Orthodox.

In fact the priest who made me a catechumen originally was a Roman Catholic who studied for the priesthood in pre-Vatican II times only to change his mind in order to get married. He later converted to Orthodoxy after Vatican II. He has told me that he finds the Eastern Liturgy more satisfying and really does not feel that he has regained anything lost at Vatican II.

Just Curious if anyone has had any experience with this.

[PhosZoe]

My mom was understanding but sort of weird about the whole thing. We don't discuss religion much and it makes life so much easier to bear. She associates Orthodoxy with being Serbian and she associates Serbian with my father who was mentally abusive and an alchoholic.

Recently, I have reconnected with my dad. While he's happy that I have become Orthodox he has his own problems with Orthodoxy in addition to issues with being ethnic. He grew up in an era before polical correctness and the acceptance of other cultures... baggage lots of baggage.

On the upside, my baba, aunts and uncles are overjoyed that I have joined thier side.

Unlike other converts, my journey to Orthodoxy started as not just a quest to find a spiritual background but to find out about being Serbian.

[Anastasios]

I was raised Lutheran and got a firm spiritual background in the Catholic Church.  In fact, I didn't really carry any Lutheran baggage with me because it was so obvious to me that Lutheranism wasn't the Church that I simply never looked back.

It was much harder for me to pick between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but I am glad I spent years researching it.  I have had more exposure to Orthodoxy than most converts prior to converting, visiting Orthodox Churches all up and down the east coast and the midwest, and of all backgrounds and nationalities.  Plus, studying at the seminary and living close to Astoria (home to many Greeks), has given me the chance to meet and experience so many people from "the Orthodox world."  It truly has been a blessing.

As far as my dad, he didn't care. My mom seems interested in converting but doesn't really take any steps towards it.

Anastasios

[TomS]

I lived in the South for 11 years, and as soon as I can (in June) I am going back.  

Any place north of Fredericksburg, VA is not the south.

[Anastasios]

Any place north of Fredericksburg, VA is not the south.

I don't believe that, buddy.  When I lived in N. Virginia, we had people named Billy Bob who drove pick up trucks with shotgun racks mounted. And they used the words "y'all", etc.; if someone from my Ohioan or Michiganer families saw that, they would most definitely not consider that Northern! Sorry!

Anastasios

[TomS]

Well, that is true. I guess growing up in MD, my definition of "Southern" is a little less strict than yours!

But that being said - y'all come down now, hear?

[Anastasios]

Maryland is like limbo I guess. It's not Southern but Northerners wouldn't consider it really Northern either.  It has New England qualities about it, but it's just not the same as Massachusettes.  WHAT IS MARYLAND?! LOL

Anastasios

[Jennifer]

I lived in northern VA for a few years when I was a kid when my dad worked for the federal government.  My mom always said that when people come to DC, if they're from the south they move to northern VA and if they're from the north, they move to Maryland.  

As for Tom's comment, what could be more southern than the home of Robert E. Lee himself?  

[Αριστοκλής]

As an alumnus of Washington & Lee University myself, Jennifer has a very good point.
But most of that corridor north of Fredericksburg to DC is populated by transplants anyway.  It doesn't really feel 'Southern" if one grew up further south.

Demetri

[Arystarcus]

In a sense, my conversion to Orthodoxy wasn't so bad, because before I had been interested in the Latin Church, which was just the kiss of death to her, although she would never admit that now.  At least Orthodoxy wasn't in communion with Rome!

Bob,

Your mother sounds a lot like my own in regards to her views regarding the Roman Catholic Church when I first started on my search for Apostolic Christianity. She was raised Baptist (the Catholic slanderin' kind) and was taught that Catholics worshipped Mary more than Jesus and that the reason Catholics have crucifixes with a corpus was because they believed that Jesus never left the cross because he was re-sacrificed at their Masses. Needless to say I tried my bestest to convince her otherwise and she begrudgingly attended several Masses with me with her Bible in hand to see what them Catholics were leaving out of the Bible, or adding to it. ;-)

Once she realized it wasn't a fad, she came to do some of her own reading and she found that the picture that other's had painted of Catholicism wasn't neither accurate nor pretty, but still wasn't ready to accept it for herself and it turns out neither was I. I started RCIA twice, but dropped out both times because it just didn't feel like that was where I was supposed to be.

On Monday it will have been a month since my chrismation and I am both happy and proud to say that I didn't make the journey solo - my mother came with me.   :-)

I can tell you that 8 years ago, heck even a year ago, I never would have thought I would be able to say that. I did go through a lot during that time, but I know that it was all worth it to be where I am today. I am thankful to God that my involvement in searching out the Church sparked some curiousity with my mother about what her son was getting into and that this tiny seed planted grew and blossomed.

If I had any advice to give to anyone it would be to pray and then pray some more. Try not to be argumentative or start theological tennis matches with people, because they don't lead anywhere - as I soon found out. What seems to be clear as day to you and unquestionable truth often times will be the exact opposite for those who do not understand what your intest is in this strange, foreign Church. Spend time reading up on the Orthodox faith and be sure to leave some of these books laying around accidentally so those that are curious might pick them up and give them a look over. Try to lead by example and live out the faith to the best of your ability and attend church services and offering invitations for others to join you. Then pray even more.

In Christ,
Aaron

[Pravoslavbob]

Aaron,

LOL!  "theological tennis matches".....that's a good one!  And unfortunately, it describes very closely what went on between my mother and myself.

Your mom joined the Church with you?  Wow, what a blessing.

I think you offer some edifying things that I can really  learn from in this post.  Thanks a lot.

Bob

[Fr. David]

I moved the artificial insemination discussion to the Free-For-All; the MBFGW topic is now in the Reviews subforum.

Ever the stickler for staying on topic, I remain

Your Slightly Anal Moderator,

Pedro

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