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« on: November 18, 2012, 08:16:07 AM »

Hi All,

I am wondering why the story in John 8:1-11 was added in the New Testament ?. Is this story Authentic or made up later on ?. According to the OSB non of the Church Fathers reference it is that true ?.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A1-11&version=NIV
John 8:1-11

New International Version (NIV)

8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
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« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2012, 08:24:10 AM »

It is true. Neither St. John Chrysostom (in his homilies) nor St. Augustine (in his tractates and sermons) mentions it. I doublechecked it for you.
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« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2012, 08:50:08 AM »

Thank you,

Was it orally/traditionally taught and then put down on paper ?.
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« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2012, 10:58:55 AM »

It was most likely an oral tradition and was later added into the Gospel. Although this narrative is not Johannine in style, it was incorporated into John's Gospel probably because of the thematic peculiarities it contained (Jesus' omniscience and divine authority, Mosaic Law and the contrast between Moses and Jesus, etc).
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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2012, 12:44:13 PM »

It even has a formal name: the Pericope of the Adulteress "Pericope Adulterae"

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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2012, 04:53:13 PM »

WHAT?!!?!?!? Who did this? Can they do that?How do we know that that is not what happened to the rest or that the NT mantained its supposed purity?
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« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012, 04:54:22 PM »

WHAT?!!?!?!? Who did this? Can they do that?How do we know that that is not what happened to the rest or that the NT mantained its supposed purity?

It's pretty easy to discover. Most of the interpolations are known and removed from translations that were made later than the 19th century.
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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2012, 04:55:27 PM »

WHAT?!!?!?!? Who did this? Can they do that?How do we know that that is not what happened to the rest or that the NT mantained its supposed purity?

The Church did it. They added the end of Mark and other parts as well. This isn't really a problem for EO/OO/RCs and more sensible Protestants...
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2012, 05:08:11 PM »

WHY?!?Huh?
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2012, 10:53:53 PM »

Deuteronomy 4:2 
New International Version (©1984)
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

And again 

New International Version (©1984)
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

How are the interpolations in the NT justified ?? 

Why did they add extra words in the scriptures ?? John 8:1-11 is not the only one, but how can it be "ok" to write new verses in the scriptures which were not originally written by the author?. 

How sure are we that the interpolations in the New Testament are true ?.
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2012, 11:38:12 PM »

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

If you want to apply this passage this way, then every book in the Bible after Deuteronomy breaks this law.

Quote
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

This passage is in the Apocalypse of St. John and is only meant to apply to that particular book (the New Testament canon didn't exist yet.)
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 12:11:20 AM »

Does anybody know exactly WHY it was added?
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 12:20:04 AM »

It was most likely an oral tradition and was later added into the Gospel. Although this narrative is not Johannine in style, it was incorporated into John's Gospel probably because of the thematic peculiarities it contained (Jesus' omniscience and divine authority, Mosaic Law and the contrast between Moses and Jesus, etc).

The use of the term of address "Woman" is Johannine. In John's Gospel, Jesus calls every woman that way, even his own mother. The rest of the text is maybe not Johannine in style, but I am sure that the word "Woman" encouraged some scribes to put the pericope in the Gospel of John.

When I was Roman Catholic, we often joked saying the pericope was likely to be apocryphal. If the event depicted were true, the Virgin Mary would have cast the first stone.
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2012, 12:28:09 AM »

Someone mentioned that St. John Chyrsostom never mentioned this story in any of his homilies. Are you entirely sure about that? I highly doubt it. I could have sworn that he commented on that story--he's probably the only Church Father I've been extrensively reading. If I recall correctly, he did in fact mention this story and actually said that what Jesus wrote on the ground was the names of the Pharisees who themselves had committed adultery.
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2012, 12:46:47 AM »

Someone mentioned that St. John Chyrsostom never mentioned this story in any of his homilies. Are you entirely sure about that? I highly doubt it. I could have sworn that he commented on that story--he's probably the only Church Father I've been extrensively reading. If I recall correctly, he did in fact mention this story and actually said that what Jesus wrote on the ground was the names of the Pharisees who themselves had committed adultery.

Now this is cool beans.

If you have any more info, links, or anything I could get more info on this, would love to read about it.
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2012, 02:40:14 AM »

Does anybody know exactly WHY it was added?
It's a Christian story of Apostolic quality.
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« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2012, 03:21:18 AM »

Someone mentioned that St. John Chyrsostom never mentioned this story in any of his homilies. Are you entirely sure about that? I highly doubt it. I could have sworn that he commented on that story--he's probably the only Church Father I've been extrensively reading. If I recall correctly, he did in fact mention this story and actually said that what Jesus wrote on the ground was the names of the Pharisees who themselves had committed adultery.

Now this is cool beans.

If you have any more info, links, or anything I could get more info on this, would love to read about it.

Bump for some sources
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« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2012, 07:34:19 AM »

Are there any Orthodox articles explaining Interpolations in the New Testament why they were added ?.
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« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2012, 07:49:49 AM »

One is still to prove that an author is unable to change style or even to quote to prove that so-called interpolations are so.

Besides, here are some Fathers commenting on the passage:

CHAPTER VIII
1. Jesus went to the mount of Olives.
2. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came to him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3. And the Scribes and Pharisees brought to him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4. They say to him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what say you?
6. This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8. And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even to the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said to her, Woman, where are those your accusers? has no man condemned you?
11. She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you: go, and sin no more.

ALCUIN. Our Lord at the time of His passion used to spend the day in Jerusalem, preaching in the temple, and performing miracles, and return in the evening to Bethany, where He lodged with the sisters of Lazarus. Thus on the last day of the feast, having, according to His wont, preached the whole day in the temple, in the evening He went to the mount of Olives.

AUG. And where ought Christ to teach, except on the mount of Olives; on the mount of ointment, on the mount of chrism. For the name Christ is from chrism, chrism being the Greek word for unction. He has anointed us, for wrestling with the devil.

ALCUIN. The anointing with oil is a relief to the limbs, when wearied and in pain. The mount of Olives also denotes the height of our Lord’s pity, olive in the Greek signifying pity. The qualities of oil are such as to fit in to this mystical meaning. For it floats above all other liquids: and the Psalmist says, Your mercy is over all Your works. And early in the morning, He came again into the temple: i.e. to denote the giving and unfolding of His mercy, i.e. the now dawning light of the New Testament in the faithful, that is, in His temple. His returning early in the morning, signifies the new rise of grace.

BEDE. And next it is signified, that after He began to dwell by grace in His temple, i.e. in the Church, men from all nations would believe in Him: And all the people came to Him, and He sat down and taught them.

ALCUIN. The sitting down, represents the humility of His incarnation. And the people came to Him, when He sat down, i.e. after taking up human nature, and thereby becoming visible, many began to hear and believe on Him, only knowing Him as their friend and neighbor. But while these kind and simple persons are full of admiration at our Lord’s discourse, the Scribes and Pharisees put questions to Him, not for the sake of instruction, but only to entangle the truth in their nets: And the Scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, they say to Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, if the very act.

AUG. They had remarked upon, Him already, as being over lenient. Of Him indeed it had I been prophesied, Ride on because of the word of truth, of meekness, and of righteousness. So as a teacher He exhibited truth, as a deliverer meekness, as a judge righteousness. When He spoke, His truth was acknowledged; when against His enemies He used no violence, His meekness was praised. So they raised the scandal on the score of justice For they said among themselves, If He decide to let her go He will not do justice; for the law cannot command what is unjust: Now Moses in the law commanded as, that such should be stoned: but to maintain His meekness, which has made Him already so acceptable to the people, He must decide to let her go. Wherefore they demand His opinion: And what say You? hoping to find an occasion to accuse Him, as a transgressor of the law: And this they said tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him. But our Lord in His answer both maintained His justice, and departed not from meekness. Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground.

AUG. As if to signify that such persons were to be written in earth, not in heaven, where He told His disciples they should rejoice they were v written. Or His bowing His head (to write on the ground), is an expression of humility; the writing on the ground signifying that His law was written on the earth which bore fruit, not on the barren stone, as before.

ALCUIN. The ground denotes the human heart, which yields the fruit either of good or of bad actions: the finger jointed and flexible, discretion. He instructs us then, when we see any faults in our neighbors, not immediately and rashly to condemn them, but after searching our own hearts to begin with, to examine them attentively with the finger of discretion.

BEDE. His writing with His finger on the ground perhaps showed, that it was He who had written the law on stone.
So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up.

AUG. He did not say, Stone her not, lest He should seem to speak contrary to the law. But God forbid that He should say, Stone her; for He came not to destroy that which He found, but to seek that which was lost. What then did He answer? He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. This is the voice of justice. Let the sinner be punished, but not by sinners; the law carried into effect, but not by transgressors of the law.

GREG. For he who judges not himself first, cannot know how to judge correctly in the case of another. For though He know what the offense is, from being told, yet He cannot judge of another’s deserts, who supposing himself innocent, will not apply the rule of justice to himself.

AUG. Having with the weapon of justice smitten them, He deigned not even to look on the fallen, but averted His eyes: And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

ALCUIN. This is like our Lord; while His eyes are fixed, and He seems attending to something else, He gives the bystanders an opportunity of retiring: a tacit admonition to us to consider always both before we condemn a brother for a sin, and after we have punished him, whether we are not guilty ourselves of the same fault, or others as bad.

AUG. Thus smitten then with the voice of justice, as with a weapon, they examine themselves, find themselves guilty, and one by one retire: And they which heard it, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest.

GLOSS. The more guilty of them, perhaps, or those who were more conscious of their faults.

AUG. There were left however two, the pitiable, and the pitiful, And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst: the woman, you may suppose, in great alarm, expecting punishment from one in whom no sin could be found. But He who had repelled her adversaries with there word of justice, lifted on her the eyes of mercy, and asked; When Jesus had lifted Himself up, and saw none but the woman, He said to her, Woman, where are these your accusers? Has no man condemned you? She said, No man, Lord. We heard above the voice of justice; let us hear now that of mercy: Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you; I, who you feared would condemn you, because You found no fault in me. What then Lord? Do You favor sin? No, surely. Listen to what follows, Go, and sin no more. So then our Lord condemned sin, but not the sinner. For did He favor sin, He would have said, Go, and live as you will: depend on my deliverance: howsoever great your sins be, it matters not: I will deliver you from hell, and its tormentors. But He did not say this. Let those attend, who love the Lord’s mercy, and fear His truth. Truly, Gracious and righteous is the Lord.
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« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2012, 08:24:25 AM »

One is still to prove that an author is unable to change style or even to quote to prove that so-called interpolations are so.

Besides, here are some Fathers commenting on the passage:

CHAPTER VIII
1. Jesus went to the mount of Olives.
2. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came to him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3. And the Scribes and Pharisees brought to him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4. They say to him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what say you?
6. This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8. And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even to the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said to her, Woman, where are those your accusers? has no man condemned you?
11. She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you: go, and sin no more.

ALCUIN. Our Lord at the time of His passion used to spend the day in Jerusalem, preaching in the temple, and performing miracles, and return in the evening to Bethany, where He lodged with the sisters of Lazarus. Thus on the last day of the feast, having, according to His wont, preached the whole day in the temple, in the evening He went to the mount of Olives.

AUG. And where ought Christ to teach, except on the mount of Olives; on the mount of ointment, on the mount of chrism. For the name Christ is from chrism, chrism being the Greek word for unction. He has anointed us, for wrestling with the devil.

ALCUIN. The anointing with oil is a relief to the limbs, when wearied and in pain. The mount of Olives also denotes the height of our Lord’s pity, olive in the Greek signifying pity. The qualities of oil are such as to fit in to this mystical meaning. For it floats above all other liquids: and the Psalmist says, Your mercy is over all Your works. And early in the morning, He came again into the temple: i.e. to denote the giving and unfolding of His mercy, i.e. the now dawning light of the New Testament in the faithful, that is, in His temple. His returning early in the morning, signifies the new rise of grace.

BEDE. And next it is signified, that after He began to dwell by grace in His temple, i.e. in the Church, men from all nations would believe in Him: And all the people came to Him, and He sat down and taught them.

ALCUIN. The sitting down, represents the humility of His incarnation. And the people came to Him, when He sat down, i.e. after taking up human nature, and thereby becoming visible, many began to hear and believe on Him, only knowing Him as their friend and neighbor. But while these kind and simple persons are full of admiration at our Lord’s discourse, the Scribes and Pharisees put questions to Him, not for the sake of instruction, but only to entangle the truth in their nets: And the Scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, they say to Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, if the very act.

AUG. They had remarked upon, Him already, as being over lenient. Of Him indeed it had I been prophesied, Ride on because of the word of truth, of meekness, and of righteousness. So as a teacher He exhibited truth, as a deliverer meekness, as a judge righteousness. When He spoke, His truth was acknowledged; when against His enemies He used no violence, His meekness was praised. So they raised the scandal on the score of justice For they said among themselves, If He decide to let her go He will not do justice; for the law cannot command what is unjust: Now Moses in the law commanded as, that such should be stoned: but to maintain His meekness, which has made Him already so acceptable to the people, He must decide to let her go. Wherefore they demand His opinion: And what say You? hoping to find an occasion to accuse Him, as a transgressor of the law: And this they said tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him. But our Lord in His answer both maintained His justice, and departed not from meekness. Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground.

AUG. As if to signify that such persons were to be written in earth, not in heaven, where He told His disciples they should rejoice they were v written. Or His bowing His head (to write on the ground), is an expression of humility; the writing on the ground signifying that His law was written on the earth which bore fruit, not on the barren stone, as before.

ALCUIN. The ground denotes the human heart, which yields the fruit either of good or of bad actions: the finger jointed and flexible, discretion. He instructs us then, when we see any faults in our neighbors, not immediately and rashly to condemn them, but after searching our own hearts to begin with, to examine them attentively with the finger of discretion.

BEDE. His writing with His finger on the ground perhaps showed, that it was He who had written the law on stone.
So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up.

AUG. He did not say, Stone her not, lest He should seem to speak contrary to the law. But God forbid that He should say, Stone her; for He came not to destroy that which He found, but to seek that which was lost. What then did He answer? He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. This is the voice of justice. Let the sinner be punished, but not by sinners; the law carried into effect, but not by transgressors of the law.

GREG. For he who judges not himself first, cannot know how to judge correctly in the case of another. For though He know what the offense is, from being told, yet He cannot judge of another’s deserts, who supposing himself innocent, will not apply the rule of justice to himself.

AUG. Having with the weapon of justice smitten them, He deigned not even to look on the fallen, but averted His eyes: And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

ALCUIN. This is like our Lord; while His eyes are fixed, and He seems attending to something else, He gives the bystanders an opportunity of retiring: a tacit admonition to us to consider always both before we condemn a brother for a sin, and after we have punished him, whether we are not guilty ourselves of the same fault, or others as bad.

AUG. Thus smitten then with the voice of justice, as with a weapon, they examine themselves, find themselves guilty, and one by one retire: And they which heard it, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest.

GLOSS. The more guilty of them, perhaps, or those who were more conscious of their faults.

AUG. There were left however two, the pitiable, and the pitiful, And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst: the woman, you may suppose, in great alarm, expecting punishment from one in whom no sin could be found. But He who had repelled her adversaries with there word of justice, lifted on her the eyes of mercy, and asked; When Jesus had lifted Himself up, and saw none but the woman, He said to her, Woman, where are these your accusers? Has no man condemned you? She said, No man, Lord. We heard above the voice of justice; let us hear now that of mercy: Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you; I, who you feared would condemn you, because You found no fault in me. What then Lord? Do You favor sin? No, surely. Listen to what follows, Go, and sin no more. So then our Lord condemned sin, but not the sinner. For did He favor sin, He would have said, Go, and live as you will: depend on my deliverance: howsoever great your sins be, it matters not: I will deliver you from hell, and its tormentors. But He did not say this. Let those attend, who love the Lord’s mercy, and fear His truth. Truly, Gracious and righteous is the Lord.

Who are the Fathers and what is the source? I'm presuming (but with nothing to go on this may be an unwise assumption) that the Bede above is the St. Bede known as the Venerable Bede, but I've never heard anyone refer to him as a Church Father before.

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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2012, 08:28:33 AM »

The text is from the Catena Aurea, a work by Thomas Aquinas where he lists the comments of the Fathers on the scriptures passage by passage for all the Four Gospels.

A "Father" does not have to be in an offical list. The Fathers of the Desert, for example, are as much Fathers as any other. The Church never stopped having Fathers of the Church.
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« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012, 09:11:20 AM »

The text is from the Catena Aurea, a work by Thomas Aquinas where he lists the comments of the Fathers on the scriptures passage by passage for all the Four Gospels.

A "Father" does not have to be in an offical list. The Fathers of the Desert, for example, are as much Fathers as any other. The Church never stopped having Fathers of the Church.

I wasn't trying to argue with you, simply asking who the figures in question were. I was actually more interested in whose words were quoted than I was in who compiled them (especially so now that I know that it was Thomas Aquinas). Is it the St. Bede I referred to for instance? Is Aug. St. Augustine of Hippo or of Canterbury or someone else? Is Alcuin St. Alcuin of York?

As interested as I am in the quotes that you've provided, there really isn't much information to go on in the text that you've given here.

James
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« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2012, 10:18:06 AM »

The text is from the Catena Aurea, a work by Thomas Aquinas where he lists the comments of the Fathers on the scriptures passage by passage for all the Four Gospels.

A "Father" does not have to be in an offical list. The Fathers of the Desert, for example, are as much Fathers as any other. The Church never stopped having Fathers of the Church.

I wasn't trying to argue with you, simply asking who the figures in question were. I was actually more interested in whose words were quoted than I was in who compiled them (especially so now that I know that it was Thomas Aquinas). Is it the St. Bede I referred to for instance? Is Aug. St. Augustine of Hippo or of Canterbury or someone else? Is Alcuin St. Alcuin of York?

As interested as I am in the quotes that you've provided, there really isn't much information to go on in the text that you've given here.

James

This. When looking through the sermons of St. Augustine on the NT I didn't find even a mention of John 8:1-11. Where do those quotes of St. Augustine come from (don't say the catena aurea but please give the text of St. Augustine himself)
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« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2012, 11:50:47 AM »

Cyrillic, you are aware that all those "Complete Works" we have around are actually "all the works that remained intact" and that for every Father there are more than one, sometimes many works that were available in the Middle Ages, but no longer are, right?

Many patristic texts are known from quotations from other authorities. I searched some versions online in English and didn't find one in which Thomas Aquinas mentions the original sources. If anything this means that these comments were widely known in his time, to the point that mentioning the source was unnecessary.

As for the identity of the Fathers, yes, it is Chrysostom, Augustine, et al.

In Spanish though, there are some sources:

Quote
Y se fue Jesús al monte del Olivar; y otro día, de mañana, volvió al templo, y vino a El todo el pueblo, y sentado los enseñaba. Y los escribas y los fariseos le trajeron una mujer sorprendida en adulterio; la pusieron en medio, y le dijeron: "Maestro, esta mujer ha sido ahora sorprendida en adulterio; y Moisés nos mandó en la Ley apedrear a estas tales. ¿Pues tú qué dices?" Y esto se lo decían tentándole, para poderlo acusar. Mas Jesús, inclinado hacia abajo, escribía con el dedo en la tierra. Y como porfiasen en preguntarle, se enderezó, y les dijo: "El que entre vosotros esté sin pecado, tire contra ella la piedra el primero". E inclinándose de nuevo, continuaba escribiendo en la tierra. Ellos, cuando esto oyeron, se salieron los unos en pos de los otros, y los más ancianos los primeros. Y quedó Jesús sólo, y la mujer que estaba en pie en medio. Y enderezándose Jesús, le dijo: "Mujer, ¿en dónde están los que te acusaban? ¿Ninguno te ha condenado?" Y dijo ella: "Ninguno, Señor"; y dijo Jesús: "Ni yo tampoco te condenaré: Vete, y no peques más". (vv. 1-11)
Alcuino
El Señor tenía la costumbre, especialmente poco antes de su pasión, de predicar la palabra de Dios durante el día en el templo que había en Jerusalén, acompañando su predicación con señales y milagros. Y cuando llegaba la tarde se volvía a Betania, hospedándose en la casa de Lázaro y sus hermanas, de donde volvía a la mañana siguiente a la misma actividad. Y como hubiese estado el último día de la scenopegia ocupado en la predicación, a la tarde se marchó al monte de los Olivos. Y esto es lo que dice: "Y Jesús se fue al monte del Olivar", etc.
San Agustín, in Joannem, tract. 33Y ¿en dónde debía predicar Jesús sino en el monte de los Olivos, en el monte del ungüento, monte del crisma? El nombre Cristo quiere decir crisma; y crisma en griego quiere decir unción. Y en verdad que nos ungió, porque nos puso en condiciones de pelear contra el diablo.
Alcuino
La unción de aceite suele hacerse a los cansados y sirve de alivio a los que padecen dolores en sus miembros. El monte de los Olivos también significa la sublimidad de la piedad divina, porque eleos en griego, quiere decir misericordia. También corresponde la naturaleza del óleo al misterio de que se trata, se queda encima de todos los demás líquidos, y como dice el Salmista: "Las misericordias del Señor están por encima de todas sus obras" ( Sal 144,9). Prosigue: "Y otro día de mañana volvió al templo", esto es, a dar a conocer su misericordia, y a ofrecérsela a sus fieles, cuando empezaba a mostrarles la luz del Nuevo Testamento (en su templo). Porque el volver al amanecer designa que comenzaba el día de la nueva gracia.
Beda
Significaba que después que empezó a habitar en el templo por medio de la gracia (esto es, en la Iglesia), todas las gentes empezaron a creer en El. Por esto sigue: "Y vino a El todo el pueblo, y sentado les enseñaba".
Alcuino
El acto de estar sentado representa la humildad de la Encarnación. Y cuando el Señor estaba sentado, el pueblo venía a El, porque después que se hizo visible por la naturaleza humana que tomó, empezaron a oírle muchos y a creer en El, porque veían que se había aproximado a ellos por medio de la humanidad. Mientras que los pacíficos y sencillos admiraban las palabras del Salvador, los escribas y los fariseos le preguntaban, no para aprender, sino para estorbar a la verdad. Por esto sigue: "Y los escribas y los fariseos le trajeron una mujer sorprendida en adulterio, la pusieron en medio, y le dijeron: 'Maestro, esta mujer ha sido ahora sorprendida en adulterio'".
San Agustín, ut sup
Habían conocido que el Salvador era enormemente bondadoso, porque de El estaba escrito: "Pasa y reina por medio de la verdad, de la mansedumbre y de la justicia" ( Sal 44,5). Trajo por lo tanto la verdad como Doctor, la mansedumbre como Libertador y la justicia como Conocedor. Cuando hablaba, era conocida la verdad, como no se irritaba contra los enemigos, era alabada su mansedumbre. Por ello tentaron su justicia, poniendo a su vista un escándalo. Dijeron para sí: "si juzga que debe dejársela estar, no tiene justicia". La Ley no podía mandar lo que no era justo y por esto invocan la Ley, diciendo: "Moisés nos mandó en la Ley apedrear estas tales". Pero como no debía abandonar la mansedumbre, por medio de la que ya se había hecho amar de las gentes, habrá de decir, que debe dejársela estar. Por esto exigen su determinación, diciendo: "Tú, pues, ¿qué dices?". Se proponían con esto encontrar ocasión de poderlo acusar, haciéndole aparecer como infractor de la Ley. Por esto añade el Evangelista: "Y esto lo decían tentándole, para poderle acusar".
Pero el Señor obrará en justicia al contestar, y no abandonará su mansedumbre. Prosigue: "Mas Jesús, inclinado hacia abajo, escribía con el dedo en la tierra".
San Agustín, de cons. Evang. 4, 10
Para manifestar que aquéllos 1 únicamente debían escribirse en la tierra, y no en el cielo, donde había dicho que sus discípulos se alegrarán de haber sido inscritos. También puede decirse que, humillándose (como lo demostraba en la inclinación de su cabeza), hacía señales en la tierra; o que ya era tiempo de que su Ley se escribiese en la tierra y fructificase (y no en piedra estéril, como antes).
Alcuino
Por la tierra debe entenderse el corazón humano, que suele dar su fruto por medio de acciones buenas o malas. Con el dedo, que es flexible en sus articulaciones, se expresa la sutileza del discernimiento. Nos da a conocer en esto que cuando veamos una acción mala en nuestro prójimo, no debemos condenarla en seguida, sino que primeramente, volviendo al secreto de nuestro corazón, examinémosla con cuidado y solicitud.
Beda
Por lo que respecta a la historia, al escribir en tierra con el dedo sin duda quiso dar a entender que en otro tiempo había escrito su Ley en una piedra.
Prosigue: "Y como porfiasen en preguntarle, se enderezó".
San Agustín, in Joannem, tract. 33
No dijo no sea apedreada, para que no pareciese que hablaba contra la Ley. Tampoco dijo sea apedreada, porque había venido, no a perder lo que había encontrado, sino a buscar lo que se había perdido. ¿Pues qué responderá? "El que entre vosotros esté sin pecado, tire contra ella la piedra el primero". Esta es la voz de la justicia. Sea castigada la pecadora, pero no por los pecadores. Cúmplase la Ley, pero no por medio de los mismos que la quebrantan.
San Gregorio, Moralium 14, 15
El que no se juzga a sí mismo antes, desconoce lo recto al juzgar a otro, y si esto lo sabe únicamente de oídas no podrá juzgar rectamente los méritos ajenos, porque la conciencia de su inocencia propia no le suministra la regla del juicio.
San Agustín, ut sup
Y habiéndoles herido con los rayos de la justicia, ni se dignó de verlos caer, sino que separó de ellos su mirada. Por esto sigue: "E inclinándose de nuevo, continuaba escribiendo en la tierra".
Alcuino
Puede muy bien entenderse que el Señor hizo esto, como tenía costumbre, para que así como si El estuviera ocupado en otras cosas y mirando a otra parte, pudieran irse más cómodamente. En esto nos enseña, de un modo figurado, que antes de corregir la falta de un hermano, así como después de haberle corregido, examinemos con detenimiento si estamos exentos de aquella culpa que reprendimos, o de algunas otras culpas.
San Agustín, ut sup
Así pues, aquéllos, heridos por la voz de la justicia como por una flecha, y encontrándose culpables, uno tras otro se retiraron todos. Y esto es lo que dice en seguida: "Ellos, cuando esto oyeron, se salieron los unos en pos de los otros, y los ancianos primeros".
Glosa
Los que eran quizá más culpables o conocían mejor sus faltas.
San Agustín, ut sup
Unicamente quedaron dos, la miseria y la misericordia, pues sigue: "Y quedó solo Jesús, y la mujer que estaba en pie, en medio". Yo creo que aquella mujer se quedó aterrada, porque esperaba ser castigada por Aquél en quien no se podía encontrar culpa alguna. Mas Aquél que había rechazado a sus adversarios con la lengua de la justicia, levantando hacia ella sus ojos de mansedumbre, le preguntó: "Y enderezándose Jesús, le dijo: mujer, ¿dónde están los que te acusaban? ¿ninguno te ha condenado?" Dijo ella: ninguno, Señor". Hemos oído antes la voz de la justicia; oigamos ahora la voz de la mansedumbre: "Y Jesús, ni yo tampoco te condenaré" 2. Esto dice aquél por quien, acaso, has temido ser condenada, por ser el único en quien no has encontrado culpa. ¿Qué es esto, Señor? ¿Fomentas los pecados? No, en verdad. Véase lo que sigue: "Vete, y no peques ya más". Luego el Señor condenó, pero el pecado, no al hombre. Porque si hubiese sido fomentador del pecado, hubiese dicho: "vete, y vive como quieras; está segura que yo te libraré; yo te libraré del castigo y del infierno, aun cuando peques mucho". Pero no dijo esto. Fíjense los que desean la mansedumbre en el Señor, y teman la fuerza de la verdad, porque el Señor es dulce y recto a la vez ( Sal 24,8).
Notas
1. Se refiere aquí a los nombres de los fariseos y maestros de la Ley que le habían planteado el caso de la mujer adúltera para ponerlo a prueba.
2. Se trata de la respuesta del Señor: "Ni yo tampoco te condenaré".
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« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2012, 02:15:20 PM »

Sorry that I didn't had time to comment early. RL has been busy the last few weeks.

Cyrillic, you are aware that all those "Complete Works" we have around are actually "all the works that remained intact" and that for every Father there are more than one, sometimes many works that were available in the Middle Ages, but no longer are, right?

I am aware of that. Yet St. John Chrysostom was very important to the medieval scribes and in the west there were very few works available. It can be argued that we have access to more works of the Church Fathers than did Thomas Aquinas.

Many patristic texts are known from quotations from other authorities. I searched some versions online in English and didn't find one in which Thomas Aquinas mentions the original sources. If anything this means that these comments were widely known in his time, to the point that mentioning the source was unnecessary.

I doubt it. The problem is that Thomas Aquinas sometimes quoted Pseudo-Chrysostom and his Opus Imperfectum in Matthaeum. Thomas Aquinas is known to have said that he would rather have the complete version of Pseudo-Chrysostom's work than be mayor of Paris (see CCSL 87B). Up until the Renaissance many works were attributed to figures like Sts. Chrysostom and Augustine while in reality they didn't write those works. An unsourced quotation to Chrysostom in a work of Aquinas is immediatly suspect.

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« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2012, 02:22:18 PM »

I hope nobody minds me posting some Latin.

Habían conocido que el Salvador era enormemente bondadoso, porque de El estaba escrito: "Pasa y reina por medio de la verdad, de la mansedumbre y de la justicia" ( Sal 44,5). Trajo por lo tanto la verdad como Doctor, la mansedumbre como Libertador y la justicia como Conocedor. Cuando hablaba, era conocida la verdad, como no se irritaba contra los enemigos, era alabada su mansedumbre. Por ello tentaron su justicia, poniendo a su vista un escándalo. Dijeron para sí: "si juzga que debe dejársela estar, no tiene justicia". La Ley no podía mandar lo que no era justo y por esto invocan la Ley, diciendo: "Moisés nos mandó en la Ley apedrear estas tales". Pero como no debía abandonar la mansedumbre, por medio de la que ya se había hecho amar de las gentes, habrá de decir, que debe dejársela estar. Por esto exigen su determinación, diciendo: "Tú, pues, ¿qué dices?". Se proponían con esto encontrar ocasión de poderlo acusar, haciéndole aparecer como infractor de la Ley. Por esto añade el Evangelista: "Y esto lo decían tentándole, para poderle acusar".
Pero el Señor obrará en justicia al contestar, y no abandonará su mansedumbre. Prosigue: "Mas Jesús, inclinado hacia abajo, escribía con el dedo en la tierra".
San Agustín, de cons. Evang. 4, 10

The Latin of this passage is:

10.  Ioannes est reliquus, qui iam non restat cui conferatur. Quidquid enim singuli dixerunt, quae ab aliis non dicta sunt, difficile est ut habeant aliquam repugnantiae quaestionem. Ac per hoc liquido constat tres istos, Matthaeum scilicet, Marcum et Lucam, maxime circa humanitatem Domini nostri Iesu Christi esse versatos, secundum quam et rex et sacerdos est. Et ideo Marcus, qui in illo mysterio quattuor animalium hominis videtur demonstrare personam 51, vel Matthaei magis comes videtur, quia cum illo plura dicit propter regiam personam, quae incomitata esse non solet, quod in primo libro commemoravi, vel, quod probabilius intellegitur, cum ambobus incedit. Nam quamvis Matthaeo in pluribus, tamen in aliis nonnullis Lucae magis congruit, ut hoc ipso demonstretur ad leonem et ad vitulum, hoc est et ad regalem, quam Matthaeus, et ad sacerdotalem, quam Lucas insinuat personam, id quod Christus homo est, pertinere, quam figuram Marcus gerit pertinens ad utrumque. Divinitas vero Christi, qua aequalis est Patri, secundum quod Verbum est et Deus apud Deum et Verbum caro factus est, ut habitaret in nobis 52, secundum quod ipse et Pater unum sunt 53, a Ioanne maxime commendanda suscepta est, qui sicut aquila in his quae Christus sublimius locutus est immoratur nec in terram quodammodo nisi raro descendit. Denique quamvis matrem Christi se nosse plane testetur, tamen nec in eius nativitate cum Matthaeo et Luca aliquid dicit nec eius baptismum cum tribus commemorat, sed tantum modo ibi testimonium Ioannis alte sublimiterque commendans 54 relictis eis pergit cum illo ad nuptias in Canan Galilaeae, ubi, quamvis ipse Evangelista matrem eius fuisse commemoret 55, ille tamen dicit: Quid mihi et tibi est, mulier? 56 non repellens, de qua suscepit carnem, sed suam tunc maxime insinuans divinitatem aquam conversurus in vinum, quae divinitas illam etiam feminam fecerat, non in illa facta erat.

Nothing about John 8:1-11 there.


Por lo que respecta a la historia, al escribir en tierra con el dedo sin duda quiso dar a entender que en otro tiempo había escrito su Ley en una piedra.
Prosigue: "Y como porfiasen en preguntarle, se enderezó".
San Agustín, in Joannem, tract. 33

St. Augustine does treat John 8:1-11 in tractate 33. I should check up on some critical edition of St. Augustine's work though. This is from the 19th century Patrologia Latina. If someone would have access to the Corpus Christianorum Series Latina volume 36 that would be great.

4. Nunc iam attendite, ubi ab inimicis tentata sit Domini mansuetudo. Adducunt autem illi Scribae et Pharisaei mulierem in adulterio deprehensam, et statuerunt eam in medio; et dixerunt ei: Magister, haec mulier modo deprehensa est in adulterio. In Lege autem Moyses mandavit nobis huiusmodi lapidare: tu ergo quid dicis? Haec autem dicebant tentantes eum, ut possent accusare eum 5. Unde accusare? Numquid ipsum in aliquo facinore deprehenderant, aut illa mulier ad eum aliquo modo pertinuisse dicebatur? Quid est ergo, tentantes eum, ut possent accusare eum? Intellegemus, fratres, admirabilem mansuetudinem in Domino praeeminuisse. Animadverterunt eum nimium esse mitem, nimium esse mansuetum: de illo quippe fuerat ante praedictum: Accingere gladio tuo circa femur tuum, potentissime; specie tua et pulchritudine tua intende, prospere procede, et regna: propter veritatem et mansuetudinem et iustitiam 6. Ergo attulit veritatem ut doctor, mansuetudinem ut liberator, iustitiam ut cognitor. Propter haec eum esse regnaturum in Spiritu sancto propheta praedixerat 7. Cum loqueretur, veritas agnoscebatur: cum adversus inimicos non moveretur, mansuetudo laudabatur. Cum ergo de duobus istis, id est de veritate et mansuetudine eius, inimici livore et invidia torquerentur; in tertio, id est iustitia, scandalum posuerunt. Quare? Quia Lex iusserat adulteros lapidari; et utique Lex quod iniustum erat iubere non poterat: si quis aliud diceret quam Lex iusserat, iniustus deprehenderetur. Dixerunt ergo apud semetipsos: Verax putatur, mansuetus videtur; de iustitia illi quaerenda calumnia est. Offeramus ei mulierem in adulterio deprehensam, dicamus quid de illa in Lege praeceptum sit: si eam iusserit lapidari, mansuetudinem non habebit; si eam dimitti censuerit, iustitiam non tenebit. Ut autem mansuetudinem, inquiunt, non perdat, in qua iam populis amabilis factus est, sine dubio eam dimitti debere dicturus est. Hinc nos invenimus accusandi occasionem, et reum facimus tamquam Legis praevaricatorem: dicentes ei: Hostis es Legis, contra Moysen respondes, imo contra eum qui per Moysen Legem dedit; reus es mortis, cum illa et tu ipse lapidandus. Posset his verbis atque his sententiis inflammari invidia, fervere accusatio, flagitari damnatio. Sed cui hoc? Perversitas rectitudini, falsitas veritati, corruptum cor cordi recto, stultitia sapientiae. Quando illi laqueos praepararent, in quos non prius ipsi caput inicerent? Ecce Dominus in respondendo et iustitiam servaturus est, et a mansuetudine non recessurus. Non est captus cui tendebatur, sed potius capti sunt qui tendebant; quia in eum qui eos posset de laqueis eruere, non credebant.


So it would seem that I should retract my statement that St. Augustine didn't comment on this passage.
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« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2012, 02:54:09 PM »

Yet, even if it is not Chrysostom, there are comments about the passage even in early reference, even if misattributed. Since the point here is that the passage is a later addition, the existence of the comment itself is more important than the accurate authorsip.


Sorry that I didn't had time to comment early. RL has been busy the last few weeks.

Cyrillic, you are aware that all those "Complete Works" we have around are actually "all the works that remained intact" and that for every Father there are more than one, sometimes many works that were available in the Middle Ages, but no longer are, right?

I am aware of that. Yet St. John Chrysostom was very important to the medieval scribes and in the west there were very few works available. It can be argued that we have access to more works of the Church Fathers than did Thomas Aquinas.

Many patristic texts are known from quotations from other authorities. I searched some versions online in English and didn't find one in which Thomas Aquinas mentions the original sources. If anything this means that these comments were widely known in his time, to the point that mentioning the source was unnecessary.

I doubt it. The problem is that Thomas Aquinas sometimes quoted Pseudo-Chrysostom and his Opus Imperfectum in Matthaeum. Thomas Aquinas is known to have said that he would rather have the complete version of Pseudo-Chrysostom's work than be mayor of Paris (see CCSL 87B). Up until the Renaissance many works were attributed to figures like Sts. Chrysostom and Augustine while in reality they didn't write those works. An unsourced quotation to Chrysostom in a work of Aquinas is immediatly suspect.


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« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2012, 07:53:53 PM »

Someone mentioned that St. John Chyrsostom never mentioned this story in any of his homilies. Are you entirely sure about that? I highly doubt it. I could have sworn that he commented on that story--he's probably the only Church Father I've been extrensively reading. If I recall correctly, he did in fact mention this story and actually said that what Jesus wrote on the ground was the names of the Pharisees who themselves had committed adultery.

Is this a reliable source of information?

http://www.bible-researcher.com/adult.html

« Thus it may be held for certain, that Tertullian and Cyprian knew nothing of the passage; while Origen and Chrysostom show in their Commentaries, that they were not aware of its existence. It has been indeed objected that nothing is proved by Origen's silence; because he often passes by portions of St. John's Gospel, and he had no occasion to mention this narrative: but, in reading his Commentary on this part of the Gospel, it is difficult (if not impossible) to imagine that he knew of anything between vii. 52 and viii. 12: for he cites and comments on every verse from vii. 40 to 52, and then at once continues from viii. 12 in the same manner (iv. p. 299, ed. De la Rue). The silence of Chrysostom on the subject, as well as that of Cyril of Alexandria, and Theodorus of Mopsuestia, was long ago noticed. »
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« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2012, 04:40:53 AM »

Someone mentioned that St. John Chyrsostom never mentioned this story in any of his homilies. Are you entirely sure about that? I highly doubt it. I could have sworn that he commented on that story--he's probably the only Church Father I've been extrensively reading. If I recall correctly, he did in fact mention this story and actually said that what Jesus wrote on the ground was the names of the Pharisees who themselves had committed adultery.

Is this a reliable source of information?

http://www.bible-researcher.com/adult.html

« Thus it may be held for certain, that Tertullian and Cyprian knew nothing of the passage; while Origen and Chrysostom show in their Commentaries, that they were not aware of its existence. It has been indeed objected that nothing is proved by Origen's silence; because he often passes by portions of St. John's Gospel, and he had no occasion to mention this narrative: but, in reading his Commentary on this part of the Gospel, it is difficult (if not impossible) to imagine that he knew of anything between vii. 52 and viii. 12: for he cites and comments on every verse from vii. 40 to 52, and then at once continues from viii. 12 in the same manner (iv. p. 299, ed. De la Rue). The silence of Chrysostom on the subject, as well as that of Cyril of Alexandria, and Theodorus of Mopsuestia, was long ago noticed. »

But we just found out that St. Augustine does comment upon it in his tractates.
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St Frederick of Utrecht


« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2012, 09:53:05 AM »

Someone mentioned that St. John Chyrsostom never mentioned this story in any of his homilies. Are you entirely sure about that? I highly doubt it. I could have sworn that he commented on that story--he's probably the only Church Father I've been extrensively reading. If I recall correctly, he did in fact mention this story and actually said that what Jesus wrote on the ground was the names of the Pharisees who themselves had committed adultery.

Is this a reliable source of information?

http://www.bible-researcher.com/adult.html

« Thus it may be held for certain, that Tertullian and Cyprian knew nothing of the passage; while Origen and Chrysostom show in their Commentaries, that they were not aware of its existence. It has been indeed objected that nothing is proved by Origen's silence; because he often passes by portions of St. John's Gospel, and he had no occasion to mention this narrative: but, in reading his Commentary on this part of the Gospel, it is difficult (if not impossible) to imagine that he knew of anything between vii. 52 and viii. 12: for he cites and comments on every verse from vii. 40 to 52, and then at once continues from viii. 12 in the same manner (iv. p. 299, ed. De la Rue). The silence of Chrysostom on the subject, as well as that of Cyril of Alexandria, and Theodorus of Mopsuestia, was long ago noticed. »

But we just found out that St. Augustine does comment upon it in his tractates.

I was only answering the question concerning John Chrysostom. Concerning Augustine, it is said:

« It is mentioned by Jerome as being found in many copies, by Ambrose, Augustine, and other writers since the fourth century. But, though cited from the time of Augustine and onward, that father was well aware that the passage was far from universally read in the copies then extant; and he endeavored to account for the fact by a conjecture: "nonnulli modicæ, vel potius inimici veræ fidei, credo, metuentes peccandi impunitatem dari mulieribus suis, illud, quod de adulteræ indulgentia dominus fecit, auferrent de codicibus suis, quasi permissionem peccandi tribuerit, qui dixit, Deinceps noli peccare. [Certain persons of little faith, or rather enemies of the true faith, fearing, I suppose, lest their wives should be given impunity in sinning, removed from their manuscripts the Lord's act of forgiveness toward the adulteress, as if he who had said, Sin no more, had granted permission to sin]" (De Adult. Conj., ii. 6, 7.) But this supposition of Augustine would not account for the fact of the omission of this passage having been so general, as it will be shown to be when the testimony of the versions against it is stated. »

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«One cannot understand the least thing about modern civilization if one does not first realize that it is a universal conspiracy to destroy the inner life.» (George Bernanos)
Frederic
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St Frederick of Utrecht


« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2012, 02:57:44 AM »

If the woman was caught in adultery, how come the man who was with her was not punished?
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«One cannot understand the least thing about modern civilization if one does not first realize that it is a universal conspiracy to destroy the inner life.» (George Bernanos)
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