|
JamesR
|
 |
« on: November 17, 2012, 09:46:29 PM » |
|
Is the classic Christmas hymn a Christological heresy because of the following line, "Veiled in flesh the Godhead see,"? This line--'VEILED in flesh'--seems to undermine the Divinity of Jesus' human nature. It makes it appear as if God only wore human flesh/looked like a human, but that He wasn't truly human. What's the name of this heresy again?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"'Blessed are the peacemakers' For those are peacemakers in themselves who, in conquering and subjecting to reason all the motions of their souls and having their carnal desires tamed, have become in themselves a Kingdom of God."-St. Augustine of Hippo
|
|
|
Tallitot
OC.net guru
 Offline
Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,190
|
|
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2012, 10:09:20 PM » |
|
Do you mean "Herald Angels"?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If people cry at weddings...why don't they laugh at funerals?
|
|
|
MarkAC
Newbie
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 5
|
|
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2012, 10:37:14 PM » |
|
I think the heresy you are thinking of is docetism, which taught that Christ only seemed to be human; I believe certain forms of Gnosticism taught this also.
Although the line you quote could be taken that way if considered in isolation, I think that if you consider the following lines along with it, you get a different impression. In the version I learned, after "Veiled in flesh the Godhead see" comes:
"Hail the incarnate deity,
Pleased as man with men to dwell,
Jesus our Immanuel."
There is a clear indication that Jesus is God "incarnate", and that He is a man. So, whatever one may think of Christmas carols, or western hymns in general, I think we can absolve this particular carol of the docetist heresy.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
orthonorm
|
|
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2012, 10:58:54 PM » |
|
Do you mean "Herald Angels"? I think the heresy you are thinking of is docetism, which taught that Christ only seemed to be human; I believe certain forms of Gnosticism taught this also.
Although the line you quote could be taken that way if considered in isolation, I think that if you consider the following lines along with it, you get a different impression. In the version I learned, after "Veiled in flesh the Godhead see" comes:
"Hail the incarnate deity,
Pleased as man with men to dwell,
Jesus our Immanuel."
There is a clear indication that Jesus is God "incarnate", and that He is a man. So, whatever one may think of Christmas carols, or western hymns in general, I think we can absolve this particular carol of the docetist heresy. You have to admire his persistence . . . James gives good internetz. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
|
|
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢，疏而不漏
Elder
 Online
Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,183
|
|
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2012, 11:02:47 PM » |
|
Ah yes, the old heresy of being written by Western Christians, a particularly pernicious heresy prevalent since the time of Augustine, the first Western Christian who dared to write extensively.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 11:03:58 PM by Cavaradossi »
|
Logged
|
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
|
|
|
ZealousZeal
Interplanet Janet
Sr. Member
Offline
Faith: ✔
Posts: 834
|
|
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2012, 11:12:02 PM » |
|
Ah yes, the old heresy of being written by Western Christians, a particularly pernicious heresy prevalent since the time of Augustine, the first Western Christian who dared to write extensively.
 Westernism... Like modernism, only worse. And way more geographic. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"With zeal have I been zealous for the Lord God of hosts" 1 Kings 19:10
|
|
|
biro
Ursus maritimus
Site Supporter
Stratopedarches
Offline
Faith: Raised Roman Catholic; now attend GOA
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 9,616
Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
|
|
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2012, 11:17:54 PM » |
|
There is an angel named Harold?
I must know more!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
|
|
|
|
William
|
|
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2012, 11:19:17 PM » |
|
Ah yes, the old heresy of being written by Western Christians, a particularly pernicious heresy prevalent since the time of Augustine, the first Western Christian who dared to write extensively.
Yes, because JamesR is well known to be a member of the Augustine hating club. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
A beard covers many chins. - Tallitot
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2012, 11:20:33 PM » |
|
There is an angel named Harold?
I must know more!
Well, the angel in It's a Wonderful Life was called Clarence. Close enough?  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢，疏而不漏
Elder
Online
Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,183
|
|
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2012, 11:27:56 PM » |
|
Ah yes, the old heresy of being written by Western Christians, a particularly pernicious heresy prevalent since the time of Augustine, the first Western Christian who dared to write extensively.
Yes, because JamesR is well known to be a member of the Augustine hating club. I would know. I'm the one who inducted him. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
|
|
|
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
Online
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,204
|
|
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2012, 11:58:37 PM » |
|
Ah yes, the old heresy of being written by Western Christians, a particularly pernicious heresy prevalent since the time of Augustine, the first Western Christian who dared to write extensively.
Westernism... Like modernism, only worse. And way more geographic. What are you talking about? All the cool kids know that Westernism and Modernism are the same thing. You can't have the Enlightenment without Scholasticism.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
|
|
Eastern Mind
Rejoice Bride Unwedded
Member
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox (One day!)
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 401
|
|
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2012, 06:46:50 AM » |
|
There is an angel named Harold?
I must know more!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMWn2oDAUVc |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
معظم المقدسة والدة الإله، ونجنا
|
|
|
|
Severian
|
|
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2012, 06:51:16 AM » |
|
On a slightly different note:
Is it OK for an Orthodox Christian to listen and sing western Christmas carols?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Christ is risen! !المسيح قام Χριστός ἀνέστη! ⲠⲓⲬⲣⲓⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲁϥⲧⲱⲛϥ! Christus resurrexit! Come and join OCnet's new book club! |
|
|
|
Severian
|
|
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2012, 06:55:15 AM » |
|
Is the classic Christmas hymn a Christological heresy because of the following line, "Veiled in flesh the Godhead see,"? This line--'VEILED in flesh'--seems to undermine the Divinity of Jesus' human nature. It makes it appear as if God only wore human flesh/looked like a human, but that He wasn't truly human. What's the name of this heresy again?
It is not necessarily heretical, but one could misconstrue it as Doceticism if they really wanted to. "[Christ] who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." -Phillipians 2:6-8 Here, St. Paul says that Christ appeared as a man, but it is quite clear in context what he means by "appeared." |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 06:56:03 AM by Severian »
|
Logged
|
Christ is risen! !المسيح قام Χριστός ἀνέστη! ⲠⲓⲬⲣⲓⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲁϥⲧⲱⲛϥ! Christus resurrexit! Come and join OCnet's new book club! |
|
|
|
orthonorm
|
|
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2012, 06:59:03 AM » |
|
Is the classic Christmas hymn a Christological heresy because of the following line, "Veiled in flesh the Godhead see,"? This line--'VEILED in flesh'--seems to undermine the Divinity of Jesus' human nature. It makes it appear as if God only wore human flesh/looked like a human, but that He wasn't truly human. What's the name of this heresy again?
It is not necessarily heretical, but one could misconstrue it as Doceticism if they really wanted to. "[Christ] who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." -Phillipians 2:6-8 Here, St. Paul says that Christ appeared as a man, but it is quite clear in context what he means by "appeared." Appearance only gets a bad rap if you let the bigotries of Greeks bother you. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
|
|
|
orthonorm
|
|
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2012, 06:59:29 AM » |
|
On a slightly different note:
Is it OK for an Orthodox Christian to listen and sing western Christmas carols?
Tell me you are joking? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
|
|
|
Severian
|
|
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2012, 07:00:32 AM » |
|
On a slightly different note:
Is it OK for an Orthodox Christian to listen and sing western Christmas carols?
Tell me you are joking? Is your face joking? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 07:02:21 AM by Severian »
|
Logged
|
Christ is risen! !المسيح قام Χριστός ἀνέστη! ⲠⲓⲬⲣⲓⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲁϥⲧⲱⲛϥ! Christus resurrexit! Come and join OCnet's new book club! |
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2012, 07:10:57 AM » |
|
On a slightly different note:
Is it OK for an Orthodox Christian to listen and sing western Christmas carols?
A good number of traditional western Christmas carols, especially those which pre-date the Reformation, are completely compatible with Orthodox teaching. O Come All Ye Faithful and Hark the Herald Angels Sing are good examples. They shouldn't be sung during Orthodox services as a liturgical replacement for hymns appointed for those services, but, otherwise, if there's no heresy or distortion in a carol, why not enjoy them?  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Severian
|
|
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2012, 07:12:29 AM » |
|
On a slightly different note:
Is it OK for an Orthodox Christian to listen and sing western Christmas carols?
A good number of traditional western Christmas carols, especially those which pre-date the Reformation, are completely compatible with Orthodox teaching. O Come All Ye Faithful and Hark the Herald Angels Sing are good examples. They shouldn't be sung during Orthodox services as a liturgical replacement for hymns appointed for those services, but, otherwise, if there's no heresy or distortion in a carol, why not enjoy them? Thank you for your input, LBK. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Christ is risen! !المسيح قام Χριστός ἀνέστη! ⲠⲓⲬⲣⲓⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲁϥⲧⲱⲛϥ! Christus resurrexit! Come and join OCnet's new book club! |
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2012, 07:23:34 AM » |
|
Ah yes, the old heresy of being written by Western Christians, a particularly pernicious heresy prevalent since the time of Augustine, the first Western Christian who dared to write extensively.
Don't you forget that blasted Tertullian, him writing in Latin and living in the west is even worse than him becoming a montanist! |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 07:23:43 AM by Cyrillic »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
Online
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,204
|
|
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2012, 01:42:10 PM » |
|
Ah yes, the old heresy of being written by Western Christians, a particularly pernicious heresy prevalent since the time of Augustine, the first Western Christian who dared to write extensively.
Don't you forget that blasted Tertullian, him writing in Latin and living in the west is even worse than him becoming a montanist! Tertullian lived in Montana? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2012, 01:46:47 PM » |
|
Ah yes, the old heresy of being written by Western Christians, a particularly pernicious heresy prevalent since the time of Augustine, the first Western Christian who dared to write extensively.
Don't you forget that blasted Tertullian, him writing in Latin and living in the west is even worse than him becoming a montanist! Tertullian lived in Montana? Yes, terrible huh? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
Online
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,204
|
|
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2012, 01:47:38 PM » |
|
Ah yes, the old heresy of being written by Western Christians, a particularly pernicious heresy prevalent since the time of Augustine, the first Western Christian who dared to write extensively.
Don't you forget that blasted Tertullian, him writing in Latin and living in the west is even worse than him becoming a montanist! Tertullian lived in Montana? Yes, terrible huh? It explains quite a bit. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
|
|
|
Asteriktos
|
|
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2012, 01:58:14 PM » |
|
JamesR Please see Heb. 10  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
NicholasMyra
|
|
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2012, 03:51:08 PM » |
|
Is the classic Christmas hymn a Christological heresy because of the following line, "Veiled in flesh the Godhead see,"? This line--'VEILED in flesh'--seems to undermine the Divinity of Jesus' human nature. It makes it appear as if God only wore human flesh/looked like a human...
"You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews..." -Job 10 So to be clothed with flesh means to have flesh. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 03:51:21 PM by NicholasMyra »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
genesisone
|
|
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2012, 04:01:10 PM » |
|
Is the classic Christmas hymn a Christological heresy because of the following line, "Veiled in flesh the Godhead see,"? This line--'VEILED in flesh'--seems to undermine the Divinity of Jesus' human nature. It makes it appear as if God only wore human flesh/looked like a human, but that He wasn't truly human. What's the name of this heresy again?
This hymn was written by Charles Wesley, brother of John Wesley, founder of the Methodist movement. I have never heard anyone question their understanding of the Incarnation. I think you're taking a single word out of context here and making too much of it. It's a bit poetic, that's all. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Fr.Aidan
Sr. Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 482
Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam
|
|
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2012, 06:03:38 PM » |
|
The only problematic Christmas carol I can think of is that one that identifies the star of Bethlehem, which tradition says was an appearance of the Christ Child in the heavens (in other words, it looked like a baby) with a comet, of all things. It has those lines, "Do you see what I see? A star, a star dancing in the night with a tail as big as a kite, with a tail as big as a kite."
While not heretical, it is clearly contrary to Orthodox Tradition. The song came out about a month before I was born.
I don't see any heresy in "veiled in flesh the Godhead see," but I think that if a person looks under every rock for heresy, they are probably distracted from their divine calling.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 06:06:36 PM by Fr.Aidan »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
genesisone
|
|
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2012, 06:35:28 PM » |
|
The only problematic Christmas carol I can think of is that one that identifies the star of Bethlehem, which tradition says was an appearance of the Christ Child in the heavens (in other words, it looked like a baby) with a comet, of all things. It has those lines, "Do you see what I see? A star, a star dancing in the night with a tail as big as a kite, with a tail as big as a kite."
While not heretical, it is clearly contrary to Orthodox Tradition. The song came out about a month before I was born.
I don't see any heresy in "veiled in flesh the Godhead see," but I think that if a person looks under every rock for heresy, they are probably distracted from their divine calling.
Father, I haven't come across that tradition before. How is it referenced in hymnography or perhaps the Infancy Gospels? (Not disputing you, please understand - just curious.) |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Fr.Aidan
Sr. Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Posts: 482
Ds. superbis resistit; humilibus autem dat gratiam
|
|
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2012, 07:10:37 PM » |
|
I am pretty sure St. John Chrysostom mentions it, and the Prologue From Ochrid based on earlier sources, of course. I don't have a detailed answer, unfortunately. Help!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Sinful Hypocrite
Member
Offline
Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Chicago
Posts: 292
Greek Orthodox-Chicago area
|
|
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2012, 09:30:25 PM » |
|
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 09:33:18 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
|
Logged
|
The lord gathers his sheep, I am the Goat. Lord have mercy
Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how
then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things
|
|
|
|
LBK
|
|
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2012, 10:03:26 PM » |
|
The only problematic Christmas carol I can think of is that one that identifies the star of Bethlehem, which tradition says was an appearance of the Christ Child in the heavens (in other words, it looked like a baby) with a comet, of all things. It has those lines, "Do you see what I see? A star, a star dancing in the night with a tail as big as a kite, with a tail as big as a kite."
While not heretical, it is clearly contrary to Orthodox Tradition. The song came out about a month before I was born.
I don't see any heresy in "veiled in flesh the Godhead see," but I think that if a person looks under every rock for heresy, they are probably distracted from their divine calling.
Father, I haven't come across that tradition before. How is it referenced in hymnography or perhaps the Infancy Gospels? (Not disputing you, please understand - just curious.) There is nothing at all in the Nativity and pre-Nativity hymnography which describes the star which led the Magi to Bethlehem as looking like a child or babe. Any such imagery, even if written of by a saint, can only be regarded as speculation, or, perhaps, a mistranslation from the original language, or a misunderstanding of what the saint actually wrote. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 10:05:07 PM by LBK »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
yeshuaisiam
Archon
Offline
Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 2,623
The best things in life are not things.
|
|
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2012, 10:51:08 PM » |
|
Do you mean "Herald Angels"? I think the heresy you are thinking of is docetism, which taught that Christ only seemed to be human; I believe certain forms of Gnosticism taught this also.
Although the line you quote could be taken that way if considered in isolation, I think that if you consider the following lines along with it, you get a different impression. In the version I learned, after "Veiled in flesh the Godhead see" comes:
"Hail the incarnate deity,
Pleased as man with men to dwell,
Jesus our Immanuel."
There is a clear indication that Jesus is God "incarnate", and that He is a man. So, whatever one may think of Christmas carols, or western hymns in general, I think we can absolve this particular carol of the docetist heresy. You have to admire his persistence . . . James gives good internetz. You are not kidding. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
yeshuaisiam
Archon
Offline
Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 2,623
The best things in life are not things.
|
|
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2012, 10:56:32 PM » |
|
The only problematic Christmas carol I can think of is that one that identifies the star of Bethlehem, which tradition says was an appearance of the Christ Child in the heavens (in other words, it looked like a baby) with a comet, of all things. It has those lines, "Do you see what I see? A star, a star dancing in the night with a tail as big as a kite, with a tail as big as a kite."
While not heretical, it is clearly contrary to Orthodox Tradition. The song came out about a month before I was born.
I don't see any heresy in "veiled in flesh the Godhead see," but I think that if a person looks under every rock for heresy, they are probably distracted from their divine calling.
You bring up a good point. I honestly never thought of that. Replacing a comet with a star.... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
