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Author Topic: "Ho On" in Icons of Christ  (Read 3788 times) Average Rating: 0
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Nephi
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« on: November 17, 2012, 02:47:14 PM »

So I've noticed the "Ho On" switched up in icons of Christ. Specifically the "W" and the "O" in his halo. Are they interchangeable in this usage, or does it change the meaning or what?

See:



and:

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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2012, 02:52:29 PM »

1 is Greek
2 is slavic
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2012, 02:54:12 PM »

You "ho on" for a second.

This doesn't mean Christ OWNS?

*embarrassedly gets ready to submit his "icon" with "P" "W" "N" in Christ's halo to the Schlock icons thread*
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2012, 02:59:02 PM »

1 is Greek
2 is slavic

So Slavonic has the Greek letters in reverse? Interesting.

I wonder if that would mean depicting the "Ho On" in English is acceptable...

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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2012, 02:59:36 PM »

You "ho on" for a second.

This doesn't mean Christ OWNS?

*embarrassedly gets ready to submit his "icon" with "P" "W" "N" in Christ's halo to the Schlock icons thread*

laugh
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2012, 03:01:18 PM »

1 is Greek
2 is slavic

So Slavonic has the Greek letters in reverse? Interesting.

I wonder if that would mean depicting the "Ho On" in English is acceptable...



Why not?

I think it is ridiculous to mix the two as in the one above (in the OP).

Silly cultural trappings.

I AM works perfectly in English.
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2012, 03:10:00 PM »

1 is Greek
2 is slavic

So Slavonic has the Greek letters in reverse? Interesting.


I think one is meant to be read left to right and the other top to bottom.
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2012, 03:13:42 PM »

1 is Greek
2 is slavic

So Slavonic has the Greek letters in reverse? Interesting.

I wonder if that would mean depicting the "Ho On" in English is acceptable...


Didn't you know?  Slavonic is Greek pig latin!
Smiley

There are a couple of explanations for this, and ways that it can be contorted.   The letters each represent and are unified through the "cross" representing the trinity.

However, the first example is how I have come to know things...

Also, not a huge deal, but it could even be a simple error.
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2012, 04:15:46 PM »

1 is Greek
2 is slavic

So Slavonic has the Greek letters in reverse? Interesting.

I wonder if that would mean depicting the "Ho On" in English is acceptable...



Why not?

I think it is ridiculous to mix the two as in the one above (in the OP).

Silly cultural trappings.

I AM works perfectly in English.
I like also how in English it spells "AIM," the very opposite of sin, i.e. missing the mark.
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2012, 04:23:31 PM »

1 is Greek
2 is slavic

So Slavonic has the Greek letters in reverse? Interesting.

I wonder if that would mean depicting the "Ho On" in English is acceptable...



Why not?

I think it is ridiculous to mix the two as in the one above (in the OP).

Silly cultural trappings.

I AM works perfectly in English.
I like also how in English it spells "AIM," the very opposite of sin, i.e. missing the mark.

Nice!
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2012, 05:46:10 PM »

You "ho on" for a second.

This doesn't mean Christ OWNS?

*embarrassedly gets ready to submit his "icon" with "P" "W" "N" in Christ's halo to the Schlock icons thread*

The 42 Canons of the 1337 M4$t3rs states quite clearly that this can only be done for icons of the Harrowing of Hell.
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2012, 05:55:25 PM »

You "ho on" for a second.

This doesn't mean Christ OWNS?

*embarrassedly gets ready to submit his "icon" with "P" "W" "N" in Christ's halo to the Schlock icons thread*

The 42 Canons of the 1337 M4$t3rs states quite clearly that this can only be done for icons of the Harrowing of Hell.

PWNSM!!!!
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2012, 08:14:35 PM »

The difference in the ordering of the letters is simply a geographic/regional difference between Greek and Slavic traditions. Nothing more to it than that.  Smiley

As for using "I AM", personally, I think it's it's unnecessary. O ΩN also means He who is, not I am (egho eimi). The use of O ΩN also draws us powerfully to the divinity and omnipotence of Christ as God, and to his meekness and humility. He who Is, not the strident I AM.

IC-XC, and the MP-ΘY inscription for the Mother of God, are universally rendered in Greek, irrespective of the provenance of the icon. It's like the convention of the liturgical singing of Eis polla eti, Dhespota in honor of a bishop - it is always sung in Greek.
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2012, 09:32:12 PM »

The difference in the ordering of the letters is simply a geographic/regional difference between Greek and Slavic traditions. Nothing more to it than that.  Smiley

As for using "I AM", personally, I think it's it's unnecessary. O ΩN also means He who is, not I am (egho eimi). The use of O ΩN also draws us powerfully to the divinity and omnipotence of Christ as God, and to his meekness and humility. He who Is, not the strident I AM.

IC-XC, and the MP-ΘY inscription for the Mother of God, are universally rendered in Greek, irrespective of the provenance of the icon. It's like the convention of the liturgical singing of Eis polla eti, Dhespota in honor of a bishop - it is always sung in Greek.

Interesting, thank you.
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2012, 08:31:01 PM »

1 is Greek
2 is slavic

So Slavonic has the Greek letters in reverse? Interesting.

Greek Xi: ξ
Slavonic Xi: ѯ

Just a joke. It is off topic.
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« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2012, 10:07:55 PM »

1 is Greek
2 is slavic

So Slavonic has the Greek letters in reverse? Interesting.

Greek Xi: ξ
Slavonic Xi: ѯ

Just a joke. It is off topic.

Cute.  laugh laugh
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 04:27:33 PM »

The difference in the ordering of the letters is simply a geographic/regional difference between Greek and Slavic traditions. Nothing more to it than that.  Smiley

As for using "I AM", personally, I think it's it's unnecessary. O ΩN also means He who is, not I am (egho eimi). The use of O ΩN also draws us powerfully to the divinity and omnipotence of Christ as God, and to his meekness and humility. He who Is, not the strident I AM.

IC-XC, and the MP-ΘY inscription for the Mother of God, are universally rendered in Greek, irrespective of the provenance of the icon. It's like the convention of the liturgical singing of Eis polla eti, Dhespota in honor of a bishop - it is always sung in Greek.

So....would it be explicitly wrong to consider the symbols to state "I AM"?  Just curious. 

What of the I AM in the halo, in English.  Was it ever decided whether or not that was truly acceptable?  It seems strange...

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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 04:49:42 PM »

The difference in the ordering of the letters is simply a geographic/regional difference between Greek and Slavic traditions. Nothing more to it than that.  Smiley

As for using "I AM", personally, I think it's it's unnecessary. O ΩN also means He who is, not I am (egho eimi). The use of O ΩN also draws us powerfully to the divinity and omnipotence of Christ as God, and to his meekness and humility. He who Is, not the strident I AM.

IC-XC, and the MP-ΘY inscription for the Mother of God, are universally rendered in Greek, irrespective of the provenance of the icon. It's like the convention of the liturgical singing of Eis polla eti, Dhespota in honor of a bishop - it is always sung in Greek.

So....would it be explicitly wrong to consider the symbols to state "I AM"?  Just curious. 

What of the I AM in the halo, in English.  Was it ever decided whether or not that was truly acceptable?  It seems strange...



There is no formal, explicit canon or ruling which says that "I AM" is not acceptable, just as there is no specific canon which says that St Joseph the Betrothed should not be shown holding the Christ-child. But knowing what should or should bot be done or painted is acquired over much effort and an immersion in the life of the church and all facets of Holy Tradition which inform and define what goes into an icon.

The fact that the name of God has been rendered exclusively in Greek, across the centuries and in all provenances, cannot be accidental. I reiterate what I said above: O ΩN also means He who is, not I am (egho eimi). The use of O ΩN also draws us powerfully to the divinity and omnipotence of Christ as God, and to his meekness and humility. He who Is, not the strident I AM.
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 04:53:06 PM »

Quote
just as there is no specific canon which says that St Joseph the Betrothed should not be shown holding the Christ-child.

Why is St. Joseph not to hold Jesus in icons?
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 05:05:00 PM »


Because he's really not his father, and plays a minor role in the scope of things.
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2012, 07:23:05 PM »


Because he's really not his father, and plays a minor role in the scope of things.

Not his father, I won't argue, but ask Jesus how unimportant St. Joseph was.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2012, 08:18:36 PM »


Because he's really not his father, and plays a minor role in the scope of things.

Not his father, I won't argue, but ask Jesus how unimportant St. Joseph was.  Roll Eyes

He was his father.
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2012, 08:24:28 PM »


Because he's really not his father, and plays a minor role in the scope of things.

Not his father, I won't argue, but ask Jesus how unimportant St. Joseph wasRoll Eyes

Where does Jesus talk about St. Joseph?   Huh
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« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2012, 08:25:45 PM »

What a bummer of a message for stepfathers: you really aren't that important, don't worry about making it into the family picture.
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« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2012, 08:32:22 PM »

What a bummer of a message for stepfathers: you really aren't that important, don't worry about making it into the family picture.
He wasn't even really a stepfather since Mary & Joseph were never married.

Joseph was more a guardian of Mary & Jesus.
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« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2012, 08:34:37 PM »

What a bummer of a message for stepfathers: you really aren't that important, don't worry about making it into the family picture.
He wasn't even really a stepfather since Mary & Joseph were never married.

Joseph was more a guardian of Mary & Jesus.
Say what?
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« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2012, 08:38:59 PM »


Because he's really not his father, and plays a minor role in the scope of things.

Not his father, I won't argue, but ask Jesus how unimportant St. Joseph wasRoll Eyes

Where does Jesus talk about St. Joseph?   Huh

I didn't say talk.

Doesn't one of the Gospels say Joseph accompanied Mary and Jesus to Egypt, helping to hide them and therefore saving their lives (since Herod wanted to put all the boy babies to death)? Didn't Joseph agree not to put Mary away quietly, thus saving her from public disparagement?

Don't you think Jesus would have loved Joseph for that? Or do you not care because the Roman Catholics like Joseph so much?
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« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2012, 08:41:33 PM »

What a bummer of a message for stepfathers: you really aren't that important, don't worry about making it into the family picture.
He wasn't even really a stepfather since Mary & Joseph were never married.

Joseph was more a guardian of Mary & Jesus.
Say what?

Marriage in that day was not like it is today. It wasn't like you had a nice marriage service, a dinner and then consummation. In fact, back in that time, consummation (also sometimes a dowry) was the sign of the marriage, and the dinner followed. Mary and Joseph never, ever had sex, therefore, they were never married.

That is why our church refers to him as "Joseph the Betrothed". He was the guardian of Mary (who was probably in her early teens, while he was really old, being a widower with several children) and of Jesus.
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« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2012, 08:45:13 PM »


Because he's really not his father, and plays a minor role in the scope of things.

Not his father, I won't argue, but ask Jesus how unimportant St. Joseph was.  Roll Eyes

Where does Jesus talk about St. Joseph?   Huh

I didn't say talk.

Doesn't one of the Gospels say Joseph accompanied Mary and Jesus to Egypt, helping to hide them and therefore saving their lives (since Herod wanted to put all the boy babies to death)? Didn't Joseph agree not to put Mary away quietly, thus saving her from public disparagement?

Don't you think Jesus would have loved Joseph for that? Or do you not care because the Roman Catholics like Joseph so much?

What is the source of the RC devotion to St. Joseph and why don't the Orthodox have similar devotion to St. Joseph?
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« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2012, 09:10:06 PM »


Because he's really not his father, and plays a minor role in the scope of things.

Not his father, I won't argue, but ask Jesus how unimportant St. Joseph wasRoll Eyes

Where does Jesus talk about St. Joseph?   Huh

I didn't say talk.

Doesn't one of the Gospels say Joseph accompanied Mary and Jesus to Egypt, helping to hide them and therefore saving their lives (since Herod wanted to put all the boy babies to death)? Didn't Joseph agree not to put Mary away quietly, thus saving her from public disparagement?

Don't you think Jesus would have loved Joseph for that? Or do you not care because the Roman Catholics like Joseph so much?

Of course He loved him!  No doubt about it.

However, the guardian is just that...a guardian...in the background....doing the guarding.

Lets just take the example of a president of a great nation.  He has his bodyguards.  One day there's an attempt on the life of the president.  His bodyguard does an excellent job in protecting the president....even gets himself shot....however, in the morning paper there's a picture showing the President waving to his constituents.  The bodyguard is not featured.

His role is not diminished.  However, he's not front and center....and the guardian usually wishes it to be that way.

 
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« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2012, 09:27:38 PM »

I don't think so. Poor St. Joseph. I don't know what I'd do if someone minimized me the way the revisionist Orthodox minimize him.
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« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2012, 10:00:34 PM »

I don't think so. Poor St. Joseph. I don't know what I'd do if someone minimized me the way the revisionist Orthodox minimize him.

I'm guessing you're not Orthodox anymore based on those statements? Are you saying Orthodox are revisionists or are you just saying "the revisionists" within Orthodoxy minimize him?

We aren't revisionists. It's a fact that Joseph & Mary never had sex, its a fact that they weren't ever married. It's a fact that Joseph was the guardian of the Virgin and of Christ.
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« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2012, 10:03:10 PM »

I don't think so. Poor St. Joseph. I don't know what I'd do if someone minimized me the way the revisionist Orthodox minimize him.

How can something be minizied by Orthodox if it weren't part of our tradition to begin with?
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« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2012, 10:06:32 PM »

1 is Greek
2 is slavic

Is that the case or is it the difference in positioning?

I'll see if I can illustrate what I mean in English.

-I-
A-M

versus

-A-
I-M

One reading top to bottom, the other reading left to right.
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« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2012, 10:09:13 PM »

I don't think so. Poor St. Joseph. I don't know what I'd do if someone minimized me the way the revisionist Orthodox minimize him.

How can something be minizied by Orthodox if it weren't part of our tradition to begin with?

It was part. There are churches named after him, after all, and there are way too many mentions of him in the Coptic Orthodox books I've read about Mary and Joseph in Egypt. You are brushing him under the rug like he never happened. Which isn't true.
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« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2012, 10:11:51 PM »

It was part. There are churches named after him, after all, and there are way too many mentions of him in the Coptic Orthodox books I've read about Mary and Joseph in Egypt. You are brushing him under the rug like he never happened. Which isn't true.

Of course those things are part of our tradition, but his depiction in icons holding Christ like Mary with father-son undertones never was part of it.
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« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2012, 10:12:26 PM »

I don't think so. Poor St. Joseph. I don't know what I'd do if someone minimized me the way the revisionist Orthodox minimize him.

How can something be minizied by Orthodox if it weren't part of our tradition to begin with?

It was part. There are churches named after him, after all, and there are way too many mentions of him in the Coptic Orthodox books I've read about Mary and Joseph in Egypt. You are brushing him under the rug like he never happened. Which isn't true.

We aren't saying Joseph isn't a Saint. He's called St. Joseph the Betrothed.

St. Joseph was not married to the Theotokos, they never had sex, they never had children. Since he wasn't married to her, he wasn't the "Stepfather" of Jesus. Rather, according to early Christian tradition, he was the guardian of the Theotokos and of Christ.

When Mary bore Christ she was in her very early teenage years. St. Joseph was an elderly man who had already been married and had several children (his youngest being St. James) with his wife who had passed on when he became betrothed to the Theotokos.
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« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2012, 10:14:23 PM »

I never said they had sex.
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« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2012, 10:16:13 PM »

I never said they had sex.

I know you never said that, but I don't know if you realize that in that day, among the Jews, the marriage was sex and it wasn't a formalized civil and religious ceremony like it is today. Either they had sex and were married, or they didn't have sex and weren't married.
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« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2012, 10:22:33 PM »

I never said they had sex.

I know you never said that, but I don't know if you realize that in that day, among the Jews, the marriage was sex and it wasn't a formalized civil and religious ceremony like it is today. Either they had sex and were married, or they didn't have sex and weren't married.

How many times do you have to say it? Do you think I don't read?

I'm pretty tired of hearing someone considerably younger than me repeat himself so much it's like he's talking to a doorpost.

All right, Devin, you win. No one is going to show you any more scary pictures of poor St. Joseph holding a baby. You are the Cereberus of Orthodoxy. You have certainly proven that you are the most rightest person ever.

Party hats for all!
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« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2012, 10:26:27 PM »

I never said they had sex.

I know you never said that, but I don't know if you realize that in that day, among the Jews, the marriage was sex and it wasn't a formalized civil and religious ceremony like it is today. Either they had sex and were married, or they didn't have sex and weren't married.

How many times do you have to say it? Do you think I don't read?

I'm pretty tired of hearing someone considerably younger than me repeat himself so much it's like he's talking to a doorpost.

All right, Devin, you win. No one is going to show you any more scary pictures of poor St. Joseph holding a baby. You are the Cereberus of Orthodoxy. You have certainly proven that you are the most rightest person ever.

Party hats for all!

I'm not arguing about iconography. I'm talking about your accusation that St. Joseph is minimized in our Church. St. Joseph is a saint! He was the guardian of the Theotokos and of Christ!

How much more exalted do you want him? Do you want to say he was married to the Theotokos? That he was the Step-Father of Christ?

(re-reading this, I realized how angry this may have sounded, don't take it that way at all, I used exclamations for emphasis, not to shout.)
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« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2012, 10:40:02 PM »

Biro, you're welcome to PM me for more information on the Orthodox doctrinal, historical, iconographic, and liturgical traditions concerning St Joseph the Betrothed.
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« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2012, 10:44:40 PM »

I never said they had sex.

I know you never said that, but I don't know if you realize that in that day, among the Jews, the marriage was sex and it wasn't a formalized civil and religious ceremony like it is today. Either they had sex and were married, or they didn't have sex and weren't married.

How many times do you have to say it? Do you think I don't read?

I'm pretty tired of hearing someone considerably younger than me repeat himself so much it's like he's talking to a doorpost.

All right, Devin, you win. No one is going to show you any more scary pictures of poor St. Joseph holding a baby. You are the Cereberus of Orthodoxy. You have certainly proven that you are the most rightest person ever.

Party hats for all!

Biro, take it easy.

He has a point.  It is Orthodox teaching that St. Joseph was no more than a guardian.  There is no concept in Orthodoxy like the RC's have of the "Holy Family".  It's not a scary image, etc....however, it might give incorrect connotations to the relationship between the Virgin Mary and St. Joseph.

  ....this looks like a too young Joseph and a very happy young couple in love, enjoying their offspring....which is not how they should be represented.

Devin's age has nothing to do with this topic...so, don't attack him due to his age.  Stick to theology and prove your point with facts, not by attacking other posters.
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« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2012, 10:51:41 PM »

I never said they had sex.

I know you never said that, but I don't know if you realize that in that day, among the Jews, the marriage was sex and it wasn't a formalized civil and religious ceremony like it is today. Either they had sex and were married, or they didn't have sex and weren't married.

How many times do you have to say it? Do you think I don't read?

I'm pretty tired of hearing someone considerably younger than me repeat himself so much it's like he's talking to a doorpost.

All right, Devin, you win. No one is going to show you any more scary pictures of poor St. Joseph holding a baby. You are the Cereberus of Orthodoxy. You have certainly proven that you are the most rightest person ever.

Party hats for all!

Biro, take it easy.

He has a point.  It is Orthodox teaching that St. Joseph was no more than a guardian.  There is no concept in Orthodoxy like the RC's have of the "Holy Family".  It's not a scary image, etc....however, it might give incorrect connotations to the relationship between the Virgin Mary and St. Joseph.
 ....this looks like a too young Joseph and a very happy young couple in love, enjoying their offspring....which is not how they should be represented.

Devin's age has nothing to do with this topic...so, don't attack him due to his age.  Stick to theology and prove your point with facts, not by attacking other posters.

Wow, i don't want to see that image again.

FYI, I own a Holy Family Icon that I purchased in Greece. I understand that it is a western influence, and I also retain a correct understanding of Joseph. Joseph wasn't a young man in love with the Theotokos and who married her after she bore Christ. Joseph was an elderly man who was betrothed to the Theotokos due to drawing lots and acted as her guardian, especially when she bore and gave birth to Christ.

I'd keep in mind that St. James was probably not too far behind the Theotokos in age, at least compared to Christ himself. I've seen some Orthodox icons of the flight into Egypt having St. James walking alongside with the Theotokos, Christ & Joseph.


Also keep in mind that St. James wasn't Christ's half-brother, he was, in a sense, Christ's step-brother but not because Mary & Joseph were married (because they weren't).
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« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2012, 11:25:35 PM »

I know you never said that, but I don't know if you realize that in that day, among the Jews, the marriage was sex and it wasn't a formalized civil and religious ceremony like it is today. Either they had sex and were married, or they didn't have sex and weren't married.

Wrong.  There was a ceremony that occured at the betrothal that legally began the marriage.  This had already occured when the Annunciation took place and Joseph found out Mary was pregnant which is why he considered divorcing her.  After betrothal the groom went and prepared a home, when he was finished he came and got his bride and there was a procession to the home and a feast.  Of course aftewards it would be assumed that the marriage was consumated that night.  It matters not that Joseph and Mary did not have sex because they cohabitated and had a child.  Jesus was Joseph's legal heir.  The Evangelists were not shy about calling Joseph Jesus' father or Mary's husband.    

"And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him" (Luke 2:33 RSV).

"And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously" (Luke 2:48 RSV).

"and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ" (Matthew 1:16 RSV)
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