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Author Topic: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA  (Read 5098 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2012, 04:18:45 PM »

We need to chill out here.

The fact that Met. Herman has submitted to his fate, rather than run off to some schismatic group or do something else, shows he at least has some remorse and acceptance for everything he's responsible for. For all we know, he might weep all day, every day over it; there's no way of knowing.

God will be his judge, and I'm sure that reality is awful enough for him to imagine. Why the need to carry on with this tantrum and these hypothetical idle threats? which he has surely heard worse than, will never read, and wouldn't care about if he did? Feel better?

His deeds went far beyond just not disclosing the theft that was occurring. He failed to disclose things about himself that would have kept him from the Metropolitan position that Mr. Kondratick then used as blackmail against him.
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« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2012, 04:20:15 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

Of course you are!  Only a true Christian could say something like that.  "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like Metropolitan Herman..."

Please, spare us your angst-driven outrage.  I am still sore from laughing about what you wrote about poor old Metropolitan Jonah.  If you start in on Metropolitan Herman, I may vomit a kidney or something.
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« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2012, 04:26:02 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

Of course you are!  Only a true Christian could say something like that.  "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like Metropolitan Herman..."

Please, spare us your angst-driven outrage.  I am still sore from laughing about what you wrote about poor old Metropolitan Jonah.  If you start in on Metropolitan Herman, I may vomit a kidney or something.

And my HMO tells me laughter is the best medicine . . .
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« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2012, 04:39:33 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

Of course you are!  Only a true Christian could say something like that.  "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like Metropolitan Herman..."

Please, spare us your angst-driven outrage.  I am still sore from laughing about what you wrote about poor old Metropolitan Jonah.  If you start in on Metropolitan Herman, I may vomit a kidney or something.

What did I say about Metropolitan Jonah?

Metropolitan Jonah is a good man who would make a good priest or abbot and a good confessor. However, he didn't make a good Metropolitan. His failings were administrative.
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« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2012, 04:43:47 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.
IMO, you just invalidated your Christian witness with that boastful judgment.
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« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2012, 05:16:19 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

Of course you are!  Only a true Christian could say something like that.  "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like Metropolitan Herman..."

Please, spare us your angst-driven outrage.  I am still sore from laughing about what you wrote about poor old Metropolitan Jonah.  If you start in on Metropolitan Herman, I may vomit a kidney or something.

What did I say about Metropolitan Jonah?

Metropolitan Jonah is a good man who would make a good priest or abbot and a good confessor. However, he didn't make a good Metropolitan. His failings were administrative.

Speaking hypothetically, what would happen to you if the Synod retracted their statement re: Metropolitan Jonah?
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« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2012, 06:09:18 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Father,

I'm not sure that Moscow could not recognize +Jonah's situation, since he himself resigned.  I can't imagine any situation in which a patriarch would refuse to recognize the right of a bishop to resign voluntarily.  It does seem, however, that Moscow does have very real concerns about the current situation within the OCA and is making those clear.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2012, 06:10:41 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

He's not really at the monastery.  He's at a small house owned by the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania.  He has no involvement at the monastery and is forbidden even to attend Church there.  I'm not sure what your disagreement with the monastery is.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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88Devin12
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« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2012, 06:11:04 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

Of course you are!  Only a true Christian could say something like that.  "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like Metropolitan Herman..."

Please, spare us your angst-driven outrage.  I am still sore from laughing about what you wrote about poor old Metropolitan Jonah.  If you start in on Metropolitan Herman, I may vomit a kidney or something.

What did I say about Metropolitan Jonah?

Metropolitan Jonah is a good man who would make a good priest or abbot and a good confessor. However, he didn't make a good Metropolitan. His failings were administrative.

Speaking hypothetically, what would happen to you if the Synod retracted their statement re: Metropolitan Jonah?

What are you talking about? Metropolitan Jonah was removed because he withheld important information from the Holy Synod regarding sexual misconduct by a Priest, that has been proven as a fact. Between that, and the other things he did which were either unilateral or that were just disagreements with the Holy Synod, there wasn't anything inherently wrong with removing him.

As I've said, Metropolitan Jonah is a good man, just not a good Metropolitan.
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« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2012, 06:12:40 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

He's not really at the monastery.  He's at a small house owned by the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania.  He has no involvement at the monastery and is forbidden even to attend Church there.  I'm not sure what your disagreement with the monastery is.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Fr. John, if you read the earlier replies, and my own posts after this one, you'll clearly see that I was told that he was at the monastery or he was in the area. So I said that if, in fact, he was at the monastery, then that monastery wouldn't receive my support. Thank God though that he is forbidden from attending there.
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« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2012, 06:15:51 PM »

No, he's not involved with the seminary.

I also don't think it is very Christian to 'punish' the monastery just because Metropolitan Herman was consigned there after his humiliating removal as Primate.  He has kept quiet, not hired any lawyers, and not disrupted anyone's life.  He has not agitated or caused anyone in the OCA to even acknowledge his existence.  Why punish the monks for that?  Do they even have a choice?  I think not.

The monks at St. Tikhon's are not there to serve Met. Herman, but to live out their lives in repentance, depending on what little the OCA community provides to them.

Have a little charity...


I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.

Are you advocating that the OCA actually imprison Met. Herman?  He has to live somewhere.  He can't be put out on the street.  He seems to be living a very meager existence, without much money, much ability to travel, and is only allowed to attend one small parish about an hour away, and is forbidden from monastery grounds.  What are you advocating?

And I do believe that this is a Christian message board.  While I am no great fan of the former metropolitan's administration, if we are all to go live where we "deserve" to, they might have to build more than a few such cells.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2012, 06:16:16 PM »

My mistake for thinking he was there... I thought the house inquestion was on monastery grounds, but that is confirmed to not be the case.  Anyway, for my part, I have no problem with either St. Tikhon's or St. John's monasteries.  I hope that Metropolitan Jonah will find a monastery and resume his monastic calling, as many have already pointed out, which was his first calling and one that he appeared to thrive in.

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

He's not really at the monastery.  He's at a small house owned by the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania.  He has no involvement at the monastery and is forbidden even to attend Church there.  I'm not sure what your disagreement with the monastery is.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2012, 06:16:44 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

He's not really at the monastery.  He's at a small house owned by the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania.  He has no involvement at the monastery and is forbidden even to attend Church there.  I'm not sure what your disagreement with the monastery is.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Fr. John, if you read the earlier replies, and my own posts after this one, you'll clearly see that I was told that he was at the monastery or he was in the area. So I said that if, in fact, he was at the monastery, then that monastery wouldn't receive my support. Thank God though that he is forbidden from attending there.

The monastery I am sure thanks God as well now that they can benefit from your generous donations.

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Didn't it just come out today? How much coffee did you have?  Shocked

Picked up my Pre-Order At about 11:30 and got home at around 1:30, been playing since almost 2:00 and finished it in about 6 hours.

(I am unemployed unfortunately)

Then again maybe not . . .

But I am sure the makers of Halo do appreciate your money.
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« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2012, 06:17:51 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

The Desert Fathers are not mere pious nonsense and I would sincerely recommend giving them a read.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2012, 06:28:09 PM »

No, he's not involved with the seminary.

I also don't think it is very Christian to 'punish' the monastery just because Metropolitan Herman was consigned there after his humiliating removal as Primate.  He has kept quiet, not hired any lawyers, and not disrupted anyone's life.  He has not agitated or caused anyone in the OCA to even acknowledge his existence.  Why punish the monks for that?  Do they even have a choice?  I think not.

The monks at St. Tikhon's are not there to serve Met. Herman, but to live out their lives in repentance, depending on what little the OCA community provides to them.

Have a little charity...


I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.

Are you advocating that the OCA actually imprison Met. Herman?  He has to live somewhere.  He can't be put out on the street.  He seems to be living a very meager existence, without much money, much ability to travel, and is only allowed to attend one small parish about an hour away, and is forbidden from monastery grounds.  What are you advocating?

And I do believe that this is a Christian message board.  While I am no great fan of the former metropolitan's administration, if we are all to go live where we "deserve" to, they might have to build more than a few such cells.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Cell = the room of a Monk
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« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2012, 06:44:30 PM »

that has been proven as a fact.

I believe the word you are actually looking for is 'unsubstantiated accusation'. I realize in certain regions of the internet that is the definition of 'fact', but for most English-speakers there's an important difference between the two.
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« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2012, 06:49:33 PM »

that has been proven as a fact.

I believe the word you are actually looking for is 'unsubstantiated accusation'. I realize in certain regions of the internet that is the definition of 'fact', but for most English-speakers there's an important difference between the two.

Unless you're one of the idiots over on Monomakhos, it isn't an "unsubstantiated accusation". The Holy Synod didn't ask for his removal based on an "unsubstantiated accusation". Monomakhos is a trash website, full of idiots, don't read it and don't trust it.
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« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2012, 07:21:54 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.
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« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2012, 07:27:43 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 07:28:13 PM by gzt » Logged
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« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2012, 07:28:11 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
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« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2012, 07:29:34 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!
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« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2012, 07:30:20 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.

gzt, you completely misunderstand my statemnent.

The Priest was asking if I wanted Metropolitan Herman imprisoned.

I assumed that he was misunderstanding what I was saying when I said he deserved a dark, cold cell. That could either be taken as a prison cell or a monks cell, and I was clarifying that I was referring to a monk's cell.

Don't just read a snippet of what I've said and assume you know the whole context.
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« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2012, 07:31:27 PM »


NVM!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 07:35:05 PM by sheenj » Logged
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« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2012, 07:32:01 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
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« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2012, 07:34:23 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.

NVM!

The Priest was asking if I wanted Metropolitan Herman imprisoned.

I assumed that he was misunderstanding what I was saying when I said he deserved a dark, cold cell. That could either be taken as a prison cell or a monks cell, and I was clarifying that I was referring to a monk's cell.

Don't just read a snippet of what I've said and assume you know the whole context.

I think you in turn misinterpreted him. I think he was referring to your previous comment on judging.

If he HAD been referring to that, he would have quoted that post. If he didn't, he should learn how to properly use the forums.

Either way, you all need to stop jumping into a conversation halfway and thinking you know what I'm talking about or what I'm saying. If you want to know the whole thing, go back and read from the beginning.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 07:34:50 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
sheenj
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« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2012, 07:35:53 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.

NVM!

The Priest was asking if I wanted Metropolitan Herman imprisoned.

I assumed that he was misunderstanding what I was saying when I said he deserved a dark, cold cell. That could either be taken as a prison cell or a monks cell, and I was clarifying that I was referring to a monk's cell.

Don't just read a snippet of what I've said and assume you know the whole context.

I think you in turn misinterpreted him. I think he was referring to your previous comment on judging.

If he HAD been referring to that, he would have quoted that post. If he didn't, he should learn how to properly use the forums.

Either way, you all need to stop jumping into a conversation halfway and thinking you know what I'm talking about or what I'm saying. If you want to know the whole thing, go back and read from the beginning.

Lol, yeah. I saw that two seconds after I posted.
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« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2012, 07:36:54 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.

NVM!

The Priest was asking if I wanted Metropolitan Herman imprisoned.

I assumed that he was misunderstanding what I was saying when I said he deserved a dark, cold cell. That could either be taken as a prison cell or a monks cell, and I was clarifying that I was referring to a monk's cell.

Don't just read a snippet of what I've said and assume you know the whole context.

I think you in turn misinterpreted him. I think he was referring to your previous comment on judging.

If he HAD been referring to that, he would have quoted that post. If he didn't, he should learn how to properly use the forums.

Either way, you all need to stop jumping into a conversation halfway and thinking you know what I'm talking about or what I'm saying. If you want to know the whole thing, go back and read from the beginning.

Lol, yeah. I saw that two seconds after I posted.

alright no problem, sorry I snapped at you, but it really gets frustrating when it is clear when people reply before really reading the context of what they are replying to. Yes I know, I'm guilty of it as well.
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« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2012, 07:39:51 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.
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« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2012, 07:56:37 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers. So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
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« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2012, 07:58:50 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 07:59:52 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
orthonorm
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« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2012, 08:02:18 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

$haloissrslyyo
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:02:36 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2012, 08:02:40 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

Do you think I keep track of the people I hear or read? I don't care enough to do that. If I were to keep track of everything I've ever listened to or read I'd have boxes full of references, which would be completely stupid.
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« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2012, 08:06:35 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

Do you think I keep track of the people I hear or read? I don't care enough to do that. If I were to keep track of everything I've ever listened to or read I'd have boxes full of references, which would be completely stupid.

$fodazfulloishizstoopid
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« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2012, 08:07:24 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

$haloissrslyyo

And what do you have to contribute to this discussion? Are you even Orthodox?

If you aren't Orthodox, your opinion doesn't even matter.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:07:53 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2012, 08:07:40 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

Do you think I keep track of the people I hear or read? I don't care enough to do that. If I were to keep track of everything I've ever listened to or read I'd have boxes full of references, which would be completely stupid.
If you cannot or will not cite those authorities whose support you claim for your opinions, then please don't say that your opinions have their support. If you insist on doing so, then don't be surprised if some refuse to believe you and choose to recognize your opinions merely for what they are: your opinions.
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« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2012, 08:09:10 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

Do you think I keep track of the people I hear or read? I don't care enough to do that. If I were to keep track of everything I've ever listened to or read I'd have boxes full of references, which would be completely stupid.

$fodazfulloishizstoopid
Orthonorm, if you keep posting such cryptic statements, I'm going to have to make a formal request that you post English translations.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:09:48 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2012, 08:12:37 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

$haloissrslyyo

And what do you have to contribute to this discussion?

The nearly impossible task of making less sense than you.

Get back on your game console.

You earned it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:12:56 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2012, 08:15:47 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

Do you think I keep track of the people I hear or read? I don't care enough to do that. If I were to keep track of everything I've ever listened to or read I'd have boxes full of references, which would be completely stupid.

$fodazfulloishizstoopid
Orthonorm, if you keep posting such cryptic statements, I'm going to have to make a formal request that you post English translations.

Sorry, thought people did that whole internet / social media talk thing around here. Like where cats talk and stuff.

Anyway:

$ = pending intellectual property

fodazfulloishizstoopid = folders full of stuff is stupid.

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« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2012, 08:16:29 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.

gzt, you completely misunderstand my statemnent.

The Priest was asking if I wanted Metropolitan Herman imprisoned.

I assumed that he was misunderstanding what I was saying when I said he deserved a dark, cold cell. That could either be taken as a prison cell or a monks cell, and I was clarifying that I was referring to a monk's cell.

Don't just read a snippet of what I've said and assume you know the whole context.

I read the whole thread. I read it all. I commented on the irony of your being able to correct a priest on the meaning of a monastic cell - your thought on where Metropolitan Herman ended up - when the priest had direct knowledge of where, precisely, Metropolitan Herman was. HTH. HAND.
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« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2012, 08:17:43 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

$haloissrslyyo

And what do you have to contribute to this discussion?

The nearly impossible task of making less sense than you.

Get back on your game console.

You earned it.

I love how you ignored the last part of my reply.

Why for God's sake haven't you admitted to either being Orthodox or not being Orthodox?

Seriously, I wish this website required faith tags.
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« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2012, 08:22:06 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

$haloissrslyyo

And what do you have to contribute to this discussion?

The nearly impossible task of making less sense than you.

Get back on your game console.

You earned it.

I love how you ignored the last part of my reply.

Why for God's sake haven't you admitted to either being Orthodox or not being Orthodox?

Seriously, I wish this website required faith tags.

Do you frequently find yourself wishing you had greater power over things you cannot at the moment control?
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« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2012, 08:26:07 PM »

Do you frequently find yourself wishing you had greater power over things you cannot at the moment control?
I like how he thinks he has a right and duty to know as a result of your input of a couple sentences into a conversation.
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« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2012, 09:30:38 PM »

that has been proven as a fact.

I believe the word you are actually looking for is 'unsubstantiated accusation'. I realize in certain regions of the internet that is the definition of 'fact', but for most English-speakers there's an important difference between the two.

Unless you're one of the idiots over on Monomakhos, it isn't an "unsubstantiated accusation". The Holy Synod didn't ask for his removal based on an "unsubstantiated accusation". Monomakhos is a trash website, full of idiots, don't read it and don't trust it.

But they are unsubstantiated accusations.
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« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2012, 10:57:44 PM »

Couple of points:

1. Many bad things happened in and to the OCA on Metropolitan Herman's watch, for which he was removed from office. He has done what was asked of him since so far as I know. He is old, infirm, and it is my understanding he is now fully or mostly wheelchair bound. Whatever sins he committed he is paying for in his reputation and in his body. When God was ready to send fire from heaven on Sodom and Gemorah, Abraham bargained with God for mercy. When God was ready to destroy most of Israel and start over with Moses, he offered himself to be destroyed that they might be spared.   Wanting to further humiliate and defame Met. Herman is simply inconsistent with the Christian faith. The point of chastisement in the Church is twofold, to serve as a warning to those who would sin against the Church in similar fashion, and to keep open the opportunity of repentance and reconciliation to God and to the Church, to give the particular sinner a mode of repentance for the salvation of his soul. The aim is not his destruction, but his healing.

Even though I agree his removal was just, were I with him I would still ask his blessing, kiss his hand, and ask for his prayers. And if I lived near, and he would have me, I would gladly visit him from time to time, help him with his needs, give him a ride to church, etc.  It is shameful to kick a man when he is down, more shameful to take joy or pride in it. Heaven forbid that any of us should not want Met. Herman's final years to be peaceful ones, in the presence of those who love him and remember him before the Lord.

2. RE: facts vs unsubstantiated allegations. I have a question. If a person is supposedly raped yet vigorously and persistently denies there was a rape…if those who know her firmly assert her denial is not a ploy or a falsehood, if there is no medical evidence of a rape…if the rape exists only in rumor and malicious gossip, and not in fact, then how can there be a coverup of what did not happen? And if there is an "official" documented accusation of covering up something that is a fiction, how does this fiction transmogrify mirabile dictu into a fact?  Does an "official" accusation have the power to confect a fact from a fiction? If it does not then how is this putative fact, not actually what others have labeled it, namely, an unsubstantiated (literally nothing standing under… iow no support) accusation.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 10:58:18 PM by Seraphim98 » Logged
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« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2012, 12:08:58 AM »

Couple of points:

1. Many bad things happened in and to the OCA on Metropolitan Herman's watch, for which he was removed from office. He has done what was asked of him since so far as I know. He is old, infirm, and it is my understanding he is now fully or mostly wheelchair bound. Whatever sins he committed he is paying for in his reputation and in his body. When God was ready to send fire from heaven on Sodom and Gemorah, Abraham bargained with God for mercy. When God was ready to destroy most of Israel and start over with Moses, he offered himself to be destroyed that they might be spared.   Wanting to further humiliate and defame Met. Herman is simply inconsistent with the Christian faith. The point of chastisement in the Church is twofold, to serve as a warning to those who would sin against the Church in similar fashion, and to keep open the opportunity of repentance and reconciliation to God and to the Church, to give the particular sinner a mode of repentance for the salvation of his soul. The aim is not his destruction, but his healing.

Even though I agree his removal was just, were I with him I would still ask his blessing, kiss his hand, and ask for his prayers. And if I lived near, and he would have me, I would gladly visit him from time to time, help him with his needs, give him a ride to church, etc.  It is shameful to kick a man when he is down, more shameful to take joy or pride in it. Heaven forbid that any of us should not want Met. Herman's final years to be peaceful ones, in the presence of those who love him and remember him before the Lord.

2. RE: facts vs unsubstantiated allegations. I have a question. If a person is supposedly raped yet vigorously and persistently denies there was a rape…if those who know her firmly assert her denial is not a ploy or a falsehood, if there is no medical evidence of a rape…if the rape exists only in rumor and malicious gossip, and not in fact, then how can there be a coverup of what did not happen? And if there is an "official" documented accusation of covering up something that is a fiction, how does this fiction transmogrify mirabile dictu into a fact?  Does an "official" accusation have the power to confect a fact from a fiction? If it does not then how is this putative fact, not actually what others have labeled it, namely, an unsubstantiated (literally nothing standing under… iow no support) accusation.
Not to disagree with your analogy, but- have you never read hardcore, militant feminists? Every heterosexual sexual act is rape (committed against a women, of course), even with consent.

You can either change fiction into a fact by redefining what something means until it no longer has meaning or by simply hammering home those points that fit within your definition of the facts while rejecting everything else. Welcome to the post-modern world.
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