Author Topic: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA  (Read 8716 times)

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Offline Maria

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Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« on: November 16, 2012, 06:58:50 PM »
The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 06:59:58 PM by Maria »
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 07:04:33 PM »
Wow!  A little direct guidance from the mother, or sister supposedly, church.
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Offline PrincessMommy

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 07:19:27 PM »
yup... I agree.  It is most interesting.

we do have to give Syosset some credit.  They did post the letter on their website. 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 07:22:05 PM by PrincessMommy »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 07:27:26 PM »
The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.
I suppose only you would see this letter as a slap in the face. And what's with this propaganda, knowing how critical you have been of how the OCA Synod has treated Metropolitan Jonah? No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate? It seems to me that the only one offering anyone a slap in the face is you.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 07:27:58 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 07:37:21 PM »
The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

??? I'm not seeing the slap in the face, just a few kind words of advice.

Offline KBN1

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 07:40:14 PM »
yup... I agree.  It is most interesting.

we do have to give Syosset some credit.  They did post the letter on their website. 


They kind of had to.  It was posted on the website of the Patriarch of Russia.  I am pleased that Patriarch Kirill has publicly set expectations.

Offline Maria

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 07:58:13 PM »
yup... I agree.  It is most interesting.

we do have to give Syosset some credit.  They did post the letter on their website. 


They kind of had to.  It was posted on the website of the Patriarch of Russia.  I am pleased that Patriarch Kirill has publicly set expectations.

I am very grateful that the Third Rome has spoken. Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory to Him forever!
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 09:03:19 PM »
The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

I don't think it is a slap on the face. Oh, and no one has ever accused Metropolitan Jonah of being a thief or a rapist.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2012, 10:04:42 PM »
Fortunately, there do not appear to be any slaps in the letter, except maybe a high-five, congratulating him on the new position and giving encouraging advice.

Sure, I would like to see relations grow even more cooperative with other Orthodox churches, restore harmony in the church, and would like to see +Met.Jonah shown respect. I generally have a favorable view of him, and it sounds like the difficulties were mainly "work" ones.

Regards.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 10:05:03 PM by rakovsky »

Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2012, 11:06:59 PM »
I can't imagine the Moscow Patriarchate ensuring the comfort in retirement of a hierarch it had retired for disciplinary issues - maybe I'm just projecting a Soviet mentality where it doesn't exist :-).
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 11:09:36 PM by kijabeboy03 »
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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2012, 11:34:14 PM »
Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

I am very grateful that the Third Rome has spoken.

 ??? Ok... 
 
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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2012, 12:13:07 AM »
Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

I am very grateful that the Third Rome has spoken.

 ??? Ok... 
 

She is not even in communion with us, who cares.

Offline Maria

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2012, 12:56:50 AM »
Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

I am very grateful that the Third Rome has spoken.

 ??? Ok... 
 

She is not even in communion with us, who cares.

Hey, one of my dear friends is still in the OCA, and he is trying to get me back in.
He is like a big brother to me, so watch your back man.
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Offline Seraphim98

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2012, 02:18:59 AM »
Axios Patriarch Kirill.

God be praised.

Maybe this can end well now for all concerned. I know my heart feels lighter seeing that Metropolitan Jonah and his welfare are not passed over in silence by His Holiness who is one of the few who has some influence to encourage a godly and fraternal tying off of these present troubles. May his voice be heard by those with ears to hear. May his brother primates similarly express their congratulations and beneficent hopes to our new Metropolitan and to our Holy Synod.

This simple letter is the best news I've seen since July.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 02:26:01 AM by Seraphim98 »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2012, 02:31:35 AM »
Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

I am very grateful that the Third Rome has spoken.

 ??? Ok... 
 

She is not even in communion with us, who cares.

And some people don't understand the joys of kicking a dead horse.
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Offline Seraphim98

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2012, 02:32:06 AM »
Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2012, 02:33:19 AM »
The Third Rome vs. The Third Moscow.

This is pretty awesome, but not as much as a pay per view Putin vs. Netanyahu fight to death.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2012, 03:10:49 AM »
Axios Patriarch Kirill.

God be praised.

Maybe this can end well now for all concerned. I know my heart feels lighter seeing that Metropolitan Jonah and his welfare are not passed over in silence by His Holiness who is one of the few who has some influence to encourage a godly and fraternal tying off of these present troubles. May his voice be heard by those with ears to hear. May his brother primates similarly express their congratulations and beneficent hopes to our new Metropolitan and to our Holy Synod.

This simple letter is the best news I've seen since July.

Amen.
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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2012, 03:12:22 AM »
Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.

Agreed. Thanks for expressing my views so eloquently.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2012, 11:04:51 AM »
Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.

Or the fact that he failed to disclose important information to the Synod about sexual abuse that was occurring, putting the whole OCA at risk of scandal and a lawsuit.

Offline sheenj

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2012, 11:20:32 AM »
Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.

Or the fact that he failed to disclose important information to the Synod about sexual abuse that was occurring, putting the whole OCA at risk of scandal and a lawsuit.

Pfft, details.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2012, 11:57:02 AM »
Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.

Or the fact that he failed to disclose important information to the Synod about sexual abuse that was occurring, putting the whole OCA at risk of scandal and a lawsuit.

Pfft, details.

I think that sheenj has put his finger on it; I suspect that there were larger issues that were important to Moscow--issues that transcended whatever internal issues the OCA had. I think that +Jonah was important to them and I admire that they are showing the world that Moscow stands by her supporters.  
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 11:58:18 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2012, 12:12:57 PM »
Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.

Or the fact that he failed to disclose important information to the Synod about sexual abuse that was occurring, putting the whole OCA at risk of scandal and a lawsuit.

Pfft, details.

I think that sheenj has put his finger on it; I suspect that there were larger issues that were important to Moscow--issues that transcended whatever internal issues the OCA had. I think that +Jonah was important to them and I admire that they are showing the world that Moscow stands by her supporters.  

I think sheen's brief comment was meant as sarcasm.

Of course Metropolitan Jonah was important, as he was to everyone. His wellbeing and his family's should be respected and attended to. But that of course, doesn't mean that Moscow wants him back or that Moscow doesn't respect Metropolitan Tikhon or the Holy Synod.

Offline sheenj

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2012, 12:40:59 PM »
Yeah, it was sarcasm.  ;D

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2012, 01:22:29 PM »
I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2012, 01:25:48 PM »
I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 01:27:16 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2012, 01:33:24 PM »
I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2012, 01:39:54 PM »
I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2012, 01:48:37 PM »
No, he's not involved with the seminary.

I also don't think it is very Christian to 'punish' the monastery just because Metropolitan Herman was consigned there after his humiliating removal as Primate.  He has kept quiet, not hired any lawyers, and not disrupted anyone's life.  He has not agitated or caused anyone in the OCA to even acknowledge his existence.  Why punish the monks for that?  Do they even have a choice?  I think not.

The monks at St. Tikhon's are not there to serve Met. Herman, but to live out their lives in repentance, depending on what little the OCA community provides to them.

Have a little charity...


I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.
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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2012, 02:18:15 PM »
Yeah, it was sarcasm.  ;D
And funny too, although I am not sure myself how much truth there is to the accusations. But nonetheless, my impression from Fr. Hopko and other bishops who I trust is that he had trouble working with others. I have a sense that Bishop Job would have felt the same way, but obviously how does one know that :/

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2012, 03:07:35 PM »
No, he's not involved with the seminary.

I also don't think it is very Christian to 'punish' the monastery just because Metropolitan Herman was consigned there after his humiliating removal as Primate.  He has kept quiet, not hired any lawyers, and not disrupted anyone's life.  He has not agitated or caused anyone in the OCA to even acknowledge his existence.  Why punish the monks for that?  Do they even have a choice?  I think not.

The monks at St. Tikhon's are not there to serve Met. Herman, but to live out their lives in repentance, depending on what little the OCA community provides to them.

Have a little charity...


I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2012, 03:13:47 PM »
No, he's not involved with the seminary.

I also don't think it is very Christian to 'punish' the monastery just because Metropolitan Herman was consigned there after his humiliating removal as Primate.  He has kept quiet, not hired any lawyers, and not disrupted anyone's life.  He has not agitated or caused anyone in the OCA to even acknowledge his existence.  Why punish the monks for that?  Do they even have a choice?  I think not.

The monks at St. Tikhon's are not there to serve Met. Herman, but to live out their lives in repentance, depending on what little the OCA community provides to them.

Have a little charity...


I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.

Devin,

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2012, 03:18:57 PM »
Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.

Metropolitan Herman does not live at St. Tikhon's, and is not allowed to even set foot there.

There are so many ill-considered comments in various places about what a "retired bishop" or "monk" like Metropolitan Jonah should get from the Church.  Metropolitan Jonah is not retired, and His Beatitude has every right to expect an arrangement that affords due consideration to himself and his dependent family members.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 03:19:46 PM by Orual »
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Offline Orual

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2012, 03:28:17 PM »
Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.

LOL.  Metropolitan Herman does not live in a cell.  He is not even allowed to go to St. Tikhon's.  He lives in a house and attends church at Holy Resurrection in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania.
He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2012, 03:37:42 PM »
Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.

LOL.  Metropolitan Herman does not live in a cell.  He is not even allowed to go to St. Tikhon's.  He lives in a house and attends church at Holy Resurrection in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania.

Orual, I was speaking to statements by another member of this site who said he was a member of St Tikhons or at least was in the area. So I was speaking to if he was a member.

Thank God he isn't a monk at St Tikhons and isn't involved with the seminary either.

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2012, 03:40:22 PM »
Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2012, 03:43:09 PM »
Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 03:44:28 PM by 88Devin12 »

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2012, 03:49:41 PM »
Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?
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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2012, 03:58:16 PM »
What's wrong with Met. Herman?
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2012, 04:00:51 PM »
What's wrong with Met. Herman?

Are you kidding? Where were you in the last 10 years?

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2012, 04:02:04 PM »
Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2012, 04:03:52 PM »
What's wrong with Met. Herman?

Are you kidding? Where were you in the last 10 years?

I'm not old enough to remember, so do you mind telling me what I missed?
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2012, 04:10:52 PM »
What's wrong with Met. Herman?

Are you kidding? Where were you in the last 10 years?

I'm not old enough to remember, so do you mind telling me what I missed?

Ah, I see you're an inquirer.

Well I'll say that you may want to wait to really read into all this because it really is not good and caused a lot of members of the OCA to either leave for other jurisdictions or even lose their faith entirely.

The short and ugly is on Wikipedia, again, I may wait for a while to read it if I were you, or just keep in mind that we are all humans and our leaders are just as fallible as we are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_scandal_in_the_Orthodox_Church_in_America

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2012, 04:11:26 PM »
We need to chill out here.

The fact that Met. Herman has submitted to his fate, rather than run off to some schismatic group or do something else, shows he at least has some remorse and acceptance for everything he's responsible for. For all we know, he might weep all day, every day over it; there's no way of knowing.

God will be his judge, and I'm sure that reality is awful enough for him to imagine. Why the need to carry on with this tantrum and these hypothetical idle threats? which he has surely heard worse than, will never read, and wouldn't care about if he did? Feel better?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 04:12:03 PM by age234 »

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Re: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2012, 04:12:19 PM »
What's wrong with Met. Herman?

Are you kidding? Where were you in the last 10 years?

I'm not old enough to remember, so do you mind telling me what I missed?

Ah, I see you're an inquirer.

Well I'll say that you may want to wait to really read into all this because it really is not good and caused a lot of members of the OCA to either leave for other jurisdictions or even lose their faith entirely.

Oh, being a Dutchman I'll probably never even see an OCA parish in my life. Besides, it can hardly be worse than the scandals the RCC is facing.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 04:14:00 PM by Cyrillic »
"We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
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